MovieChat Forums > Fringe (2008) Discussion > Ah, time travel problems again ...

Ah, time travel problems again ...

posted 8 years ago by kmh12177
12 replies | jump to latest

So, Walter and the boy go to 2167 in order to prevent the creation of the original observers, thus preventing the invasion.

So, time has changed and the observers never existed, which prevents the invasion ... BUT, it also prevents Walter and son from being saved from drowning by September, as he would not exist so would not have been there once the timeline reset.

BUT, Walter would not even have had a reason to go over to the red dimension because September never existed, so didn't interrupt Walternet from seeing he had the cure.

SO, Peter should have grown up in the redverse and never been in "our universe" after the reset.

The only way the ending would make sense is if after playing with Etta in the park, Peter looks up and sees a Zeppelin. And a stranger who lives at the address where Walter sent the letter should have just looked puzzled at the end ... maybe our Olivia?

[–] kmh12177 8 years ago

Wait, if they prevented the bad observers from ever being created, then September, the father of the boy, would not have been created - which leads to the boy not existing and therefore unable to prevent the invasion from happening.

Eh, I've give it leeway since all time travel movies seem to have problems (except the excellent "Triangle" 2009).

I just realized how I can explain the timeline problems with my first post (ignoring the first paragraph of this post):

After preventing the "bad" observers from being created, the now "good" observers realize they have to recreate the time travel paths the bad ones made to keep the timeline intact, except for the invasion path. So a good observer distracts Walternet from seeing the cure and rescues Walter and Peter from drowning.

Now the show makes sense time-wise.

[–] sestoner81 8 years ago

The explanation that works best to me is that resets only reach back to the moment of divergence in the timeline.

When the timeline was reset back at the end of season 3, it only reset to when Walter crossed over. The reset was influenced by the Machine's existence and the events in season 3, therefore the reset was tied to the creation of the tear in the universes. If the reset had gone back further, it could've created a situation where Walter DIDN'T cross over, and that couldn't happen. He had to cross over to create the tear to create the circumstances in which the Machine was created, etc. etc. It's like a tape being rewound and re-recorded.

The final season was tied directly to the invasion, therefore any reset that happened would only reset back to the moment of that invasion, which was the moment of divergence in the timeline. Now, this may sound contradictory as it created a situation in which the invasion didn't happen, which wasn't allowed in the season 3 reset. However, the difference is that Walter became a paradox in order for this to work. He jumped forward from the season 5 timeline to make sure the Observers didn't exist in the future, but that shouldn't be possible since he's jumping forward from a timeline that will no longer exist due to his jumping forward...etc etc. He removed himself from the reset to make sure it worked, and this allowed him to create a situation where the original event COULD be rewritten. The explanation of that is a bit "wibbly wobbly timey wimey" but that seems to be the reasoning behind that.

"Spoon. Kitchen Table. Canada?!" -Chromeslice

[–] HarveyMidnight 8 years ago

The explanation that works best to me is that resets only reach back to the moment of divergence in the timeline.

I like that one, too... but my personal explanation is that September, himself, has become an anomaly just like Peter. He shouldn't exist, but he still does.

This is a grandfather paradox:

*A time traveller goes back in time & kills his grandfather.
*Because the traveller's grandfather died, his father was never born, and thus he was never born.
*Time traveller was never born; therefore, he never went back in time, and thus never killed his grandfather.
*Since the time traveller's grandfather was never killed, then his father was born and he, too, was born ---- enabling him to travel back in time.
*Time traveller goes back in time & kills his grandfather...
***...Repeat...

If September stops the invasion by erasing the existence of Observers--- then he would erase himself, and thus he would never go back in time to stop the invasion; which means it will happen-- which will mean he will come back and stop it... which means... you get the idea. The unresolvable paradox destroys the universe.

One good way to avoid this kind of problem, is to LET it get resolved. Let the changes "stick"-- so, when September comes back in time, stops the invasion-- he keeps existing... as an anomaly.

Maybe the universe can protect itself, by allowing SMALL anomalies to exist-- like letting Peter, September & Walter keep existing in a new timeline even tho they should've been erased along with the old one-- in order to avoid the BIG issue of a deadly & unresolvable grandfather paradox.

September is the "SOURCE" of the new timeline-- I'd call him the "catalyst" of the paradox. his interference is what created it. Therefore, he must continue to exist, in order for the new timeline to remain stable. Certain things he did in 1985--- interrupting Walternate, etc--- are considered 'essential steps' in preventing the major paradox & maintaining stability, so they also remain as part of the timeline.

Sometimes fires don't go out when you're done playin' with them.

[–] mvitale24 8 years ago

It actually does more than that. There never would have been a need for Walter to cross over to the other universe and take that Peter since his own was already dead and...

with the prevention of the creation of the Observers, September never would have existed to be present at the lab and distract Walternate from discovering the cure that would have saved his Peter. With Peter saved, Prime Walter would have had no reason to cross over, therefore no fall through the ice that would have killed them both since September would not have been there to save either of them.

With no September:

-- Peter would be dead.
-- Alternate Peter would be alive.
-- Prime Walter would never have crossed to the other side.
-- Alternate Universe never would have been aware of Prime's existence.
-- Alternate Universe never would have suffered damage to their world since Walter never created or used the portal to enter their world.
-- String of events never would have occurred: no ZFT creation, no manifesto, no need for Cortexiphan trials that involved Olivia or any of the other children, no need for a Fringe Division created in either universe, no Fringe cases period.

With the timeline reset in the finale, and its sole intent being to prevent the Observer invasion by preventing the Observers from ever being created, that would and should have meant that with September's elimination from existence, Prime Peter should be dead.

To have the timeline reset conveniently only back to the day of the invasion made absolutely no sense. That would imply that Observers still existed before that day. If they were never created, they never existed to travel back and witness important events such as Walternate finding a cure for Peter. That distraction set in motion everything that happened in the entire series. With September removed from existence, the timeline should have reset to the first episode with Prime Peter's death and Alternate Peter's cure.

Walter never would have crossed over, never would have damaged the other universe, and never would have spent 17 years in an insane asylum. Peter and Olivia never would have met because he was already dead. Olivia never would have undergone experiments with Cortexiphan and never would have developed her special abilities.

To have time just reset to the park the day of the invasion was fantastical but nonsensical.

[–] shigui 8 years ago

To have time just reset to the park the day of the invasion was fantastical but nonsensical.

Maybe nonsensical but it was sweet. It showed that Peter and Olivia had a happy ever after

Death lies dormant in each of us and will bloom in time. Odd Thomas

[–] HarveyMidnight 8 years ago

I don't think it was nonsensical... the Observers may have traveled thru all of history, but their practice was to never interfere with events, hence the name "Observers"-- generally, they succeeded at that.

When they became Invaders, that is the specific moment they chose to interfere with what was, for THEM, the past--- The attack was paradoxical, and the MOMENT of that attack, was the point the most "pressure" was put on the timeline-- being the start of the largest change they made to the past.

Makes sense to me that when the timeline was reset & the Observers ceased to exist.. that's the point in time that the reset would need to start.

Sometimes fires don't go out when you're done playin' with them.

[–] sestoner81 8 years ago

What you're describing is the ORIGINAL timeline, the one we never saw, the one that happened the FIRST time through. This timeline will always lead to the Observers being created, however, which starts the whole process over again. It's a loop.

The scientists in 2167 will now create Observers, who will go back and Observe, and through those actions September will distract Walternate, which sets the process in motion again and ultimately leads to the Observers not existing, which leads to no September distraction, which is the original series of events, which leads to the scientists in 2167 creating the Observers, etc etc. The timeline will now never reach beyond 2609 when the Observers come back, and an anomaly will be allowed in order to fix this issue. That anomaly is Walter's paradoxical travel to 2167, which allows him to overwrite that moment in time while causing the timeline to reset to only the moment of divergence impacted by that moment.

This same sort of loop happened in season 3 with the universe ending at 2036 and Peter going back to stop it, except it was fixed by allowing an anomaly, the Machine, to exist. The Machine shouldn't have existed as it's a paradox because it was sent back from a timeline that will now no longer exist, but it HAS to in order for the timeline to continue and the Observers to exist in order to influence the timeline in the first place.

Your last paragraph is incorrect. Walter and Bell experimented on the kids before Walter crossed over. Trials began in 1981. Walter crossed over in '85. Olivia still would've possibly crossed over and met an alternate Peter, and possibly became a couple and had Etta, the first child of two children from two different universes, and therefor special (as we saw in season 5). This is also a potential reason as to why September went back to observe that moment: this was the moment brilliant scientist Walter Bishop started the relationship between two universes.

WHEW!

"Spoon. Kitchen Table. Canada?!" -Chromeslice

[–] diabolik-988-130127 8 years ago

I love how you all rednecks critic an amazing series just because Time Travel doesn't work the way YOU want it to work.

I have some news for you: TIME TRAVEL IT'S NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE. NOBODY CAN DEFY THE RULES OF TIME TRAVEL, so therefore anyone can come with there own theory about what will happen.

What we know at this moment about time travel it's that we know nothing, only Science Fiction and gibberish, not a single scientific study shows us a rule about time traveling. Human ingenuity will no doubt unlock this misery one day and THEN we will know for sure (if we would still be alive that is) until then let the Series Director do whatever he wants with time travel, he's not wrong.

[–] sestoner81 8 years ago

When the show doesn't tell us exactly what those rules are, we have to use other shows and movies as a guideline for what to expect. Fringe has given us clues as to how the time travel works on the show, but they've never explicitly told us, hence why some people have issues and come on here to ask about it.

Instead of talking down to people, why not help them understand?

"Spoon. Kitchen Table. Canada?!" -Chromeslice

[–] mgreen9715 8 years ago

Nothing of real value to add but it's awesome that people still post on this board. Even the reddit is pretty dead and even though i t suffered from low ratings in the US it was a pretty big international hit.

I love how you all rednecks critic an amazing series just because Time Travel doesn't work the way YOU want it to work.

I have some news for you: TIME TRAVEL IT'S NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE. NOBODY CAN DEFY THE RULES OF TIME TRAVEL, so therefore anyone can come with there own theory about what will happen.

What we know at this moment about time travel it's that we know nothing, only Science Fiction and gibberish, not a single scientific study shows us a rule about time traveling. Human ingenuity will no doubt unlock this misery one day and THEN we will know for sure (if we would still be alive that is) until then let the Series Director do whatever he wants with time travel, he's not wrong.

No *beep* every movie or TV series involving time travel or timelineing is different and the writers move the path forward.

[–] Nobody-too-Important 8 years ago

I think the point at which we are all slight off is that, Walter never went into the future to prevent Observers from existing. He went into the future with the boy to show them that they could exist with their same intelligence and capabilities without needing to shed their humanity. This allows for them to exist, travel through time, keep the timeline that was previously established intact, but also stop them from being so callous that they would invade an earlier time and risk the timeline. I suppose I could be misinterpreting, but that's what I took from Walter's plan.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

Sounds good to me. There's no reason to think humans couldn't evolve more intelligence through other means.

Seize the moment, 'cause tomorrow you might be dead.