if time is reset at the end of the episode,does this mean that the Pattern/Fringe division/the alternate universe still exists/happen but without the Observers ??.
shareGood question. This is exactly why I think the series should have continued. That or else a movie made. There was talk of one right after the finale.
share[deleted]
Great question,I didn't even think of that until I read this. Since September would have never distracted Walternate he would have cured Peter and Walter wouldn't have crossed over causing the breaches. This then brings up the question of how Peter and Olivia are together at the end since he wouldn't be alive in that universe, only the alternate.
shareWouldn't Olivia and Peter grow older and live to eventually get to Walter in the year he jumped forwards to? Or was this too far into the future for them to live to?
shareHe went to 2167. Too far in the future.
shareBut Peter should be dead. In the original timeline, Walter was unable to find a cure to save him. That was the whole catalyst for crossing over to try and save Alternate Peter because Walternate had been distracted by September and failed to notice that he had discovered a cure. No September, no distraction, Walternate saves his own Peter. But Prime Peter is still dead.
Peter and Olivia should never have met because:
1- He's dead in the original timeline.
2- Walter never crossed over to the Alternate Universe because Walternate saved his own son.
3- Walter never goes to an insane asylum because he never crossed over to the Alternate Universe. None of those events should have occurred because he never crossed over to get the other Peter.
4- Fringe Division is never formed because none of the events that lead to the formation of ZFT, the harm done to the Alternate Universe, the supposed "war" between the universes -- never existed or happened.
5- Olivia nor any of the other children were ever part of Cortexiphan drug trials.
As for Walter, he told Peter that both he and the boy would cease to exist since they were both paradoxes which really made no sense at all. The idea being that once the scientists there were able to study "Michael" and realize that they don't need to sacrifice emotions for higher intelligence, they would avoid the path that lead to the creation of the Observers. Now I could see how that would mean that "Michael" might cease to exist if he'd never been created in the first place but Walter was not genetically engineered. He's not an Observer. He's a normal human being. Why would he cease to exist even if the timeline had been reset?
Something I didn't get (among so many other things): If Walter, along with Michael, entered the white light and eventually ceased to exist, how could he have given birth to Peter? Who did Peter thought was his father after the scene in the park with Olivia and Etta and who did he think sent him that letter with a picture of a flower?
thats correct. its not clear at this point what really happened to Walter and how was he able to send that flower picture to Peter if he got deleted from timeline. and unfortunately thats how show ended so we wont get answers
shareBut there's the problem right there. If Walternate saves his own Peter because September wasnt' there to distract him, the Walter never would have crossed over to the other universe to try and save Peter since Walternate would have done so.
But that would mean that Prime Peter is dead. He never would have married Olivia or even met her, let alone had Etta with her since he never would have existed.
ZTF never would have been formed, nor the manifesto written. David Robert Jones never would have spearheaded any of those projects for William Bell. Walter never would have created a time travel machine, never would have needed to bury the pieces in the past, never would have damaged the Alternate Universe. Fringe Division never would have been formed. The Cortexiphan trials never would have taken place.
So... that timeline reset in the finale made no sense. It reset everything to that day in the park, the day of the invasion, which did not occur because the Observers do not occur. But Peter should not be there. He's dead. He and Oliviva never met. Etta should not exist.
It's nice to play with different timelines and alternate universes and they did a fine job over the course of the series and I fully realize how rushed they were with those last 13 episodes and fully commend them on a great job trying to wrap thing up but they really dropped the ball there.
For the timeline to be reset, all traces of any influence of the Observers had to be removed. The key one is September's distraction of Walternate. With him gone, Alternate Peter would be alive. Prime Peter is dead regardless. With this being the case, Walter has no reason to travel to the other side, creating rifts, vortices, anomalies, etc. because his own Peter is dead but Alternate Peter is alive and well. Therefore that should have ended any further mention of the Alternate Universe.
Prime Universe Peter is dead. If time is reset, then it should have reflected this point. Peter and Olivia should not be together.
And before anyone mentions the Alternate Timeline, remember that it was September who tried to erase Peter from that timeline. Without him, it never would have happened so there is no Alternate Timeline without the Observers. Timeline reset, no Alternate Timeline, no Peter reintroduced because he could not be kept from it even by September -- since he no longer exists either.
The alternate universe still exists. The observers didn't create it, it always existed. Stopping them from existing doesn't change that.
shareThat's a good question.
shareIt only reset to the moment of the invasion, which was the moment of divergence in the timeline that lead to the future we saw.
"Spoon. Kitchen Table. Canada?!" -Chromeslice
but since Observers did not exist wouldnt that also mean they would not distract Walternate from finding a cure and set the whole Peter arc in motion, thus fundamentally changing the entire timeline?
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Applied Science? All science is applied. Eventually.
The Observers existed,they just never invaded. The child observer showed them it was not necessary. Walter and September/Donald said they could only reset things to the moment of the invasion and we're able to stop that from happening.
share"It only reset to the moment of the invasion,"
Picture the timeline like a VHS recording. When they reset it in season 5, they just rewound the tape to the moment of the invasion and recorded over that with a new recording in which there isn't an invasion. Everything that was recorded before that is still there.
"Spoon. Kitchen Table. Canada?!" -Chromeslice
>"It only reset to the moment of the invasion,"
But that makes no sense. Even if it only did that, Observers came from AFTER the invasion and thus would not come.
Your VHS alegory does not work, not when time travel is involved.
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Applied Science? All science is applied. Eventually.
Well there're no real rules for time travel for us to go by, so each piece of fiction creates its own, and that's what Fringe did. And on Fringe, that's how it works. Old technology is used as a guide for the rules of this universe. For example, Peter's scene of finding out what happened to Olivia by digging through "layers" of digital footage to find her is like Olivia's "digging" through layers of the timeline to "find" Peter and bring him back in season 4. It's a thematic connection that also establishes a rule. It also showed how love can be quantumly entangled in the episode 43B about the old couple seeing "ghosts" of each other across dimensions.
They didn't come after the invasion because Walter jumped further ahead on the timeline and stopped them from existing, which means they wouldn't exist. However, he jumped forward from a moment in the timeline that will no longer exist because of his jumping ahead in the timeline, so he's a paradox, and to resolve that the universe resets only to the moment of the invasion, the moment that is the catalyst of the timeline Walter jumped from.
"Spoon. Kitchen Table. Canada?!" -Chromeslice
Yes, it's a paradox.. but the time-travel used in Fringe allows for paradoxes to exist.
The Machine, for example, is a 'bootstrap paradox'--- it only exists because the 2026 version of Walter studied the 'ancient' machine and created a copy of it, and sent the copy back to the ancient past thru a womhole, where it becomes the original ancient machine that he will copy.
The machine only exists as a copy of its future self.
And not only that.. the 2026 future where it was created, has also been erased. So it never even WAS created.
September, too, creates a grandfather paradox, when he comes back in time and prevents the Observers-- including himself-- from ever existing.
MY theory, which I have stated here before (tho it's been awhile) is that every paradox has a 'catalyst'- a person or item that travels backward in time, alters history and causes that paradox. The Machine, September, even Michael... will become 'catalysts' of various paradoxes.
A paradox could destroy the universe-- but in Fringe, the way the universe survives is that history is changed by the 'catalyst', and a new timeline overwrites the old one.... but, to make sure the 'new' timeline unfolds correctly, the catalyst keeps existing, as an "anomaly".
Think of it as: September erased the future--- but because he was 'safe' in the past, he didn't get erased with it.
Sometimes fires don't go out when you're done playin' with them.
Yeah but that shouldn't be the case. It erased the Observers from existence since they would never be created. That should reset it much further back than just to the day of the invasion. If the Observers did not exist, than September would not exist and if he did not exist, then he would not have been present to distract Walternate from discovering the cure that would save his Peter.
Anything else does not make sense. To say that the Observers ceased to exist only from the moment of the invasion is ludicrous.
Curiouser and curiouser, when they shut down the bridge did that sever everything? For example when Olivia had to cross over, she explained that she ambered herself, thus she was a younger version of alternate Olivia. When the timeline reset, did it just reset for our side or did everything start over again for their side too? Ie Lincoln and alt Olivia fall in love again, or the other side remains in the future?
shareI don't understand your mention of Olivia ambering herself and therefor being a younger version. What does that mean?
"Spoon. Kitchen Table. Canada?!" -Chromeslice
Our Olivia ambered herself in 2015 & then she was freed by Peter & Etta in 2036. She crossed over to the other side to get help in retrieving Michael. She met with alt Olivia & Lincoln, now aged to the future. So our Olivia was younger than the alt Olivia. When they closed the bridge, would that prevent their world to being reset like it was on our side?
shareThe reason our Olivia looks younger is because she was ambered. She didn't age. So if the timeline is reset to 2015, both will be reset, but nothing will change in the alt verse because it wasn't affected by the invasion in the first place.
"Spoon. Kitchen Table. Canada?!" -Chromeslice
So would the alt universe still be in 2036 & our world back to 2015 or would the alt universe reset back to 2015 as well?
shareSo would the alt universe still be in 2036 & our world back to 2015 or would the alt universe reset back to 2015 as well?
Time travel does not work that way.
There's only ONE point in history that is 2015
LOL, I didn't even know time travel did work.
"Time travel does not work that way. "
Is there an established way that have laws in regards to time travel? If so, I haven't heard of it.
It's a science that every series seems to treat it however the writers feel like doing so.
"Time travel does not work that way. "
Is there an established way that have laws in regards to time travel? If so, I haven't heard of it.
It's a science that every series seems to treat it however the writers feel like doing so.
To add to the already numerous responses. Remember when September tried to erase Peter and reset time? It was reset in both universes.
To add to the already numerous responses. Remember when September tried to erase Peter and reset time? It was reset in both universes. Thus, in that scenario, Fauxlivia never had Peter's baby and Alt-Broyles never died (when he was caught helping Olivia return to her Universe). It depends on the projection of the time/space manipulator I would say.
The joy of science fiction is that it can present as many new theories as one can dream up.
Again I'll mention this. The key point here is that the timeline reset was supposed to ensure that the Observers were never created in the first place. This was to prevent the invasion from occurring, yes but it should have meant that none of the Observers would have been created -- period. So September and the other scientists never would have existed and never would have traveled back in time to witness important events and September never would have prevented Walternate from discovering the cure that would save Peter.
Walter's Peter would be dead. Walter never would have crossed over to the other Universe to try and save that Peter because Walternate would have saved him. There never would have been a Peter in the Prime Universe, period.
September would not have existed to erase Peter from the timeline and it would not have needed to be reset because it never happened.
There never would have been any crossing of universes as Walter never would have had a need to do so in the first place with his own Peter dead and the Alternate Universe's Peter saved by Walternate.
Everyone keeps saying that the finale's reset of time to the day of the invasion makes no sense. Observers were never created. That was the whole point of sending Michael to the future so that scientists would realize they didn't have to go down that path and create Observers. So no Observers would mean that none of them would have ever gone back to the past and none of them, including September, would have ever interfered with the original timeline.
With that said, Peter should not be alive.