MovieChat Forums > Affinity (2008) Discussion > For those who've seen the revised ending...

For those who've seen the revised ending (SPOILERS AHOY!!)

posted 16 years ago by threeoranges
16 replies | jump to latest

... For all those who've seen the revised "underwater" ending:

Do you believe Selina could feel that much remorse?

I think it was a sop to our sensibilities to show Selina inwardly "dying" at her realization of what she'd done. However, much as I wish she had some feelings to hurt, I can't believe it of her.

Why? Because she simultaneously manipulated Mrs Jelf as well. What she did to Mrs J was particularly heartless, if we consider it closely! So when I get told "Selina did have a heart after all", I have to wonder if she visited Mrs Jelf as well. Why should Margaret be privileged with Selina's apologies/reconciliation and not Mrs Jelf?

What did you think?

[–] Yakkaty 16 years ago

Looks like Selina did really love Margaret but she had to betray her because she "belonged" to someone else who is manipulating her. She didn't feel that much remorse and sorry for Mrs. J. because although she betrayed her trust but she did not steal Mrs J's money and heart (as in romantic love). She feels strongly for Margaret also. Selina is in prison still, she's not free of "Peter Quick". She does have a heart and she is herself hurt by what she has done to others.

[–] threeoranges 16 years ago

She didn't feel that much remorse and sorry for Mrs. J. because although she betrayed her trust but she did not steal Mrs J's money and heart (as in romantic love).

Do you honestly think that getting an impoverished woman

1) sacked from her job AND
2) convicted and sentenced to a prison term (in a Victorian prison, no less!)

is LESS culpable than telling romantic lies to a rich woman and stealing her money?

Margaret had her heart broken and lost her private savings, true, but she could have hushed this up and lived her life as usual. Mrs Jelf would have had to "go on the run" if she wanted to avoid capture and sentencing! Which is worse? Objectively, which is the worse situation to be in, Margaret's or Mrs Jelf's?

I don't believe Selina felt that strongly for Margaret either, because the "Peter Quick made her do it" excuse can only go so far. As Ruth wrote her those letters from prison Selina would have learned of Margaret's recent bereavement, the fact Helen dumped Margaret in favour of Margaret's brother, Margaret's martinet of a mother... and Selina never allowed compassion to get in the way of using those facts to screw Margaret over.

On the night of her escape she was there, in Margaret's house, and she chose to stay with Ruth rather than escaping from Ruth and heading downstairs to Margaret.

I don't think she really loved Margaret.

[–] ju_lia5 16 years ago

"I don't think she really loved Margaret"

I disagree. Reading the novel i would say you were right, but since it was written in diary style we only have Margeret's observations to go on. The movie continues and hints that Selina might feel more for Margaret.

As for Selina: she's in prison and sees a way out. Not a very nice way, but in manipulation two women she gains her freedom. When you look at that place anybody would wish to leave if they had the chance. Misleading Mrs Jelf is a small price to pay for that freedom.

As for Margaret: well we have told by the movie and the book that Selina 'belonged' to Ruth. I think it is unfortunant how that happened and what hold Ruth has over her. Does Selina love Ruth more than Margaret? Would she have been with Margaret is she had the chance? I don't know. I don't think we'll ever know unless Sarah Waters sheds light on the matter.

I do, however, think that by changing the ending we get the idea that Selina at least cared for Margaret and i quite like that idea.

[–] threeoranges 16 years ago

"I don't think she really loved Margaret"

I disagree. Reading the novel i would say you were right, but since it was written in diary style we only have Margeret's observations to go on. The movie continues and hints that Selina might feel more for Margaret.

Only the ending hinted at that - and, as I keep saying, if she felt remorse for what she did to Margaret I would expect her to feel EQUAL remorse for Mrs Jelf. Or greater, actually - what she did to Mrs Jelf was much, much worse!

As for Selina: she's in prison and sees a way out. Not a very nice way, but in manipulation two women she gains her freedom. When you look at that place anybody would wish to leave if they had the chance. Misleading Mrs Jelf is a small price to pay for that freedom.

It is a small price... IF you have no scruples and no shame. If you have some capacity for guilt (as we expect Selina to have) then the Mrs Jelf issue cannot be brushed aside! Some sort of restitution should have been made to Mrs J, she was the true victim of Selina's con-artistry.

As for Margaret: well we have told by the movie and the book that Selina 'belonged' to Ruth. I think it is unfortunant how that happened and what hold Ruth has over her.

Why do you think Selina didn't rush downstairs to Margaret when she was in Margaret's house?

Does Selina love Ruth more than Margaret? Would she have been with Margaret is she had the chance? I don't know. I don't think we'll ever know unless Sarah Waters sheds light on the matter.

My policy is never to ask the author to shed further light on a written work, unless they choose to write an official sequel. (Whether Selina would have actually enjoyed being with Book!Margaret... I think not. There's a scene where Margaret bursts into some poetry by Keats - "They glide, like phantoms, into the wide hall" - and Selina stares at her with a WHUT? expression. I truly believe that had they eloped together Selina would have been bored to death within a week!)

I do, however, think that by changing the ending we get the idea that Selina at least cared for Margaret and i quite like that idea.

I'd have liked it... if poor, bereaved Mrs Jelf had not been brushed aside like a piece of litter.

[–] ju_lia5 16 years ago

[–] threeoranges 16 years ago

The book isn't about Mrs Jelf. It is about a lonely woman who becomes a ladies visitor and meets somebody there who she finds interesting.

If it was about Mrs Jelf we would have heard more about how the boy died, how much she misses him, if she has any other children, if she is still married and how her husband is dealing with the loss of the child.

Well, we did get a lot of her history in the novel: we get the fact it was an illegitimate child, that her husband left her because of it, that she lost her entire family over the affair and then her son had died at the age of four anyway. Now, would Waters have given her a starkly tragic history like that if she hadn't intended her to appear just as much of a victim as Margaret - in fact, maybe even more of one?

AFFINITY is one of those novels where the characters who occupy the centre-stage are NOT necessarily the most interesting - at the end we discover that the ingenious backstage puppetmaster of the whole thing is Vigers, someone who seemed to say nothing more than "Yes, miss" and "No, miss" for most of the novel! Which is why I think it's fair to say that Waters' message in AFFINITY is "Don't just dismiss the seeming walk-on characters, they're human beings too and they may be far more important than you think."

So, taking this "don't just dismiss the walk-on characters" message into account, why shouldn't we consider Mrs Jelf's feelings too? Maybe because if we do, we'll be forced to conclude that Selina really is heartless - and that's a message with no comfort at all.

Do we want to cling to an idealized version of Selina, or do we want to face the truth about her? My problem with the Davies ending is that he prettied Selina up and gave her a heart... but only when it came to Margaret. When it came to Mrs Jelf, the bereaved mother she cheated and dumped, Selina couldn't care less. So the result is lopsided.

I feel for Margaret because in the book and the movie we get to know Margaret and it was nice to hope that love could be out there for her too.

I totally agree with this: Margaret was a bit of a voyeur, but ultimately had a good heart and deserved to be happy. However, Selina was the wrong girl for her. Fact.

[–] threeoranges 16 years ago

I just came across this page on sweetheart scams:

http://www.dangersofinternetdating.com/sweetheartscams.htm

This caught my eye: "Most sweetheart scammers are pulling numerous scams at the same time with multiple victims! Almost every victim of a sweetheart scam has found out, after the con artist "disappeared" that they were not alone and that several others were being duped at the same time."

The fact that Mrs Jelf is being played simultaneously would seem to affirm Selina's status as a "scammer" rather than as Margaret's true love.

[–] CelticLord 15 years ago

Cons are a reprehensible lot, BUT I don't imagine being one is anybody's first choice. Being a poor, single woman in that day and age must have been grueling and I can see how the popularity of Spiritualism might have gotten Selina and Ruth to scammin'.

Margaret was uptight and green alright, but certainly not without her allure. Ruth was less attractive physically, and appeared controlling. Given that option, vs any great "love," Selina well may have found Margaret more alluring.

The ancient Hawaiian teachings speak of "aka cords," formed of a sticky psychic substance that stream out, interconnecting people who are in relationship. The deeper, longer, more intense the connection, the stronger the cord.

With the poor Mrs. Jelf, it was probably "business as usual" for Selina, pretending to contact the lost boy on the other side, retrieving a lock of "his" hair, etc. With Margaret it was a ticket to freedom and a new future: a much more intence aka cord connection. So yes, I can imagine the spiritual side of Selina (however darkened) getting a strong pull at the very end.

"Faith is Fidelity to the Insights you've gained."

[–] threeoranges 15 years ago

Yes, being a con artist must have been a tempting career choice for a young working-class woman... But even so, does that really excuse the practice?

I'll give you an example of a "medium" today - Colin Fry - who's clearly a talented mimic and who has spun out his gift for voices into a spiritualist business. Take a look at this video at YT and tell me that's NOT an Alec Guinness impression!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrV7A3RECJA

I consider him the same as Selina Dawes: a fake preying upon the vulnerable. Scum, in other words.

Now, to your other points. Firstly, how can you state that Selina would have found Margaret more "alluring" than Ruth? Talking from my own experience, I usually find an unusual-looking but quirky man more attractive than a conventionally handsome one. Talent and obvious intelligence helps too, and certainly Ruth has a formidable intelligence and a talent in voicework!

Also consider that Selina would have had more in common with Ruth - both were accomplished frauds, both working-class - and that Margaret, in the book, was very fond of poetry and fine literature, things that did not interest Selina. (You'll recall that when R&S stole Margaret's things they left only the books, which they tipped out on the floor!)

So would Selina have found Margaret more "alluring"? Not necessarily.

Also, your own argument about the aka cord being formed from "deeper, longer, more intense connections" is precisely why Selina was destined for Ruth - this perfectly describes Selina's attachment to Ruth whilst she was in Millbank! Selina shielded Ruth from prosecution, then went through nine months of hellish prison existence for her. Margaret would not have been able to compete with a relationship forged from such extreme circumstances and involving such self-sacrifice!

As for "business as usual"... Margaret would have been "business as usual" for Selina too! Selina had the ability to appeal sexually to rich gay women, a talent she used to make a connection with Mrs Brink. (The "Brink sessions" in the book suggest that Mrs Brink uses Selina as a means of indulging in paraphilic infantilism.) Why do you think Selina was after the heiress Madeleine Silvester? In the end, the women who loved Selina all thought they were special to Selina, and that she loved them back. It wasn't true.

In the end, if Selina had wanted Margaret, she would have turned on Ruth when they were together in Margaret's attic. She did not.

[–] sekhmet-net 15 years ago

I think you're right. While I think Selina felt some attraction to Margaret and responded to her interest in her, I strongly doubt Margaret was her great love.

I also doubt that, if things had worked out, Margaret would have been happily ever after; she was totally infatuated with and idealised Selina, and saw her as a potential way out of her own mundane, oppressive world, but the reality surely couldn't have satisfied her intellectually and emotionally.

In the end, if Selina had wanted Margaret, she would have turned on Ruth when they were together in Margaret's attic. She did not.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment (I largely agree with you) - this doesn't necessarily follow. The movie in particular shows the R/S relationship as being pretty sinister and unhealthy, if not dysfunctional; after being institutionalised for months, it's not surprising that Selina continued to submit to a dominant, controlling personality (who - at least in the film - is also physically stronger), and didn't deviate from the plan even when a possible alternative escape route was open to her - she automatically stuck to what she knew. But there's no doubt she felt real passion for Ruth.

The Mrs Jelf point is an interesting one too; if Selina was capable of feeling something for Margaret, then surely she would have felt some remorse or shame for doing what she did to Mrs Jelf - a woman who had shown her nothing but kindness, and risked her job and liberty for her sake. She didn't seem to feel all that much remorse in relation to Mrs Brink either; while she obviously was distressed at the time, in the film (it's been a while since I read the book) she still seems sorrier for herself and the position in which she ended up, rather than any kind of victim empathy.

I found the underwater scene a bit of a false note, really. In the interviews on my copy of the DVD, Andrew Davies admits he did it precisely as a way of giving the audience a sort-of-but-not-really happy ending, to get them together somehow. However, I think it would have worked better had they just left it at the scene on the boat, with Selina obviously feeling a pang of something, but it being left to the audience's interpretation as to whom it was for and how deep it went.

[–] threeoranges 15 years ago

I suppose I raised the possibility that Selina might have broken away from Ruth because I had the example of another real-life gay couple in mind. By all accounts Joe Orton was totally under Kenneth Halliwell's domination until they both got sentenced to prison terms (for a shockingly trivial offence, let's not forget). In prison, Orton matured and became his own man, and though he returned to Halliwell afterwards he'd grown largely independent of him.

Yes, he DID return to Halliwell afterwards - just like Selina did with Ruth - so your point, that in a crisis you stick to what you know, still applies. Even so, I wonder whether Orton would have gone back to Halliwell had he met someone else to care for whilst in prison. I got the sense that he returned to Halliwell in the absence of anything better.

Which, to me, suggests that Selina thought that Ruth was the best option *even after* meeting Margaret.

But I do agree with you that the R/S relationship was extremely unhealthy - I'd even go so far as to suggest that Selina had a mental imbalance which Ruth played upon. So the question of Selina's "guilt" is always muddied by the issue of her awareness of events. (Please do go back and revisit Waters' novel, it can withstand multiple re-readings.)

She didn't seem to feel all that much remorse in relation to Mrs Brink either

Very true - I never had much sympathy for Mrs Brink in the novel, because she openly uses Selina for her own gratification, but in the film she's just a pleasant old lady who never deserved an ending like that.

I found the underwater scene a bit of a false note, really.

Me too, and the source of that does lie with poor Mrs Jelf. How people can brush her sufferings aside as unimportant is really beyond me!

[–] sekhmet-net 15 years ago

Oh, I certainly have to reread it! I went searching through my book collection after watching the film, but I think I must have borrowed it from the library. *adds to "To Buy" list* I'm rereading "Fingersmith" at the moment. I couldn't get into "The Night Watch" when I first tried it, but I probably wasn't in the right frame of mind for it. I'll definitely give it another go too. Did you know she has a new one that's either coming out, or just been released? It's called something like "Little Stranger." I haven't seen it out here yet (I'm in Australia), but it's mentioned on her website.

What I love about Waters' writing is the layers upon layers - there's rarely a word that's superfluous, everything, no matter how slight, is significant, and even her most appalling characters have some redeeming, human qualities. Or at least, you can kind of understand how they acted in such a way. They're all such incredibly complex works. Eg. even in the novel, I could feel some element of sympathy for Mrs Brink - she and Selina were using each other in a way. In fact, almost everyone seems to be acting from ulterior motives, that's what makes the novel so fascinating.

That's another reason why that ending in the film didn't really work for me ... it was just out of place and a tad simplistic, because really it's not so much of a "love story" or romance at all. Also, visually it was very pretty, but a bit twee, if that makes sense.

[–] threeoranges 15 years ago

I knew of THE LITTLE STRANGER, but after the disappointment that was THE NIGHT WATCH I'm ordering it from the library. (I splashed out on the hardback when TNW came out, and handed it on to a friend immediately afterwards: since I have a habit of keeping virtually all the books I ever enjoy, and have a clear-out only under duress, that gives you some idea of how let down I felt!) THE NIGHT WATCH was so... remote. Beautifully written in places, but I didn't care about the characters at all. Whereas in AFFINITY, FINGERSMITH, TIPPING, I cared so much about everyone involved (even Mrs Jelf!) I hope Waters regains her ability to involve the reader on an emotional as well as an intellectual level in her latest.

What I love about Waters' writing is the layers upon layers - there's rarely a word that's superfluous, everything, no matter how slight, is significant, and even her most appalling characters have some redeeming, human qualities.

Oh yes yes yes! The writing is so subtle - to give just one instance amongst hundreds in AFFINITY, in that very first scene when Peter is uncovered and Mrs Brink has a stroke, Selina writes, "She looked then as if she longed to speak but could not, and when Ruth saw that she said we must send at once for the doctor." The first time you read it, you picture a maid concerned for her mistress: the second time, you realize that this is Vigers calculating their chances of being caught, and that she would send for the doctor only when she is sure that Mrs Brink will be unable to communicate with him! Waters is such a supreme artist - at her best there are few to match her ability at layering.

And yes, even ruthless Ruth has her human qualities - in that last scene, she's imagining how lovely Selina will look in the sunlight of a foreign country: there is a brief moment of tenderness before Ruth reverts to her habitual scheming ("How many rich ladies will want to look at you there...") Her last words to Selina, too, may reveal a certain insecurity that makes her human.

That's another reason why that ending in the film didn't really work for me ... it was just out of place and a tad simplistic, because really it's not so much of a "love story" or romance at all. Also, visually it was very pretty, but a bit twee, if that makes sense.

It does: it's so facile to have Margaret "saved" after death by the very person who drove her to suicide in the first place. Pretty visuals and a touching piano soundtrack doesn't make up for a total lack of sense.

Furthermore, would we swallow it if this had been a man conning a woman? I doubt it!

[–] MeLioneth 13 years ago

I think that at the beginning, when Selina lived in that house with the other mediums, she was much more "human" Viger had a really bad influence on Selina. IMO, Selina first really wanted to help people and was not interessted in money (thats more Vigers stuff), but I think at the End she changed her mind when she realized what a power she can have on others through her "gift". But this is in no way an excuse for her behavior.
Selina turnd selfish and her actions where irresponsible.
It had its reasons why she was in prison, sure.

Selina was to small-minded for Margaret, that never would go on well.^^

*beep* Selina!^^

[–] Tat-me-not 14 years ago

I just saw the movie and here's what I found: the night before Selina escaped the prison Margaret was in her cell and wished to see her undress. They kissed briefly and then Selina said, 'I'm sorry'.
To my mind, it speaks for itself (of course it may be interpreted as if she were ashamed of her condition). However manipulative or subject to manipulation she was she could still feel that she was doing wrong.

[–] threeoranges 14 years ago

Do you think she apologized to Mrs Jelf too?