in response to:
" "does it make sense to share heaven with the wicked?"
following your logic and train of thought etc then yes it does make sense to share Heaven with the wicked. As you yourself put it love "your neighbours as yourself". "
..... i dont believe you followed any logic at all except trying to sneak in a little criticism and confusion… i mentioned "loving your neighbour etc" obviously not with reference to wicked people entering heaven!!!!! But with reference to the fruits of the spirit of any genuine Christian... even so, taking this little jibe of yours at face value, do you see the logic that.. lets say .. if a man was wicked through greed... but then he loved his neighbour as himself.. theres no way he could remain greedy? he would have to share etc ... essentially not only would any wicked man be forced from his subjectivity to objectivity.. but in all his thoughts actions and deeds he would also learn how his every thought deed and action felt first hand as it follows equally that he would "love" himself also his neighbour... thus.. as psychologists would say.. he would change his ways through continual positive and negative re-enforcement......... love your neighbour as yourself is a great principle for the wicked and for the saints alike as we all learn more what true love is and how to treat each other and ourselves..
the bible also says:
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
and there are thousands of verses corroborating that no wicked will enter heaven, nor will the wicked remain wicked once "saved".... indeed look again at what i said and see that its ridiculous to even imply that wicked people could enter heaven!! .. i said.... "after faith in salvation.. what pleases him i believe is repentance and change for the better.." ... change for the better!!! .. in my vocabulary that refers to a turning away from sin... anyone who did not change away from wicked would not please God and knows not God .... i also quoted very obviously regarding the NARROW gate of heaven which has a NARROW way... gosh how on earth could you make sense that wicked people enter heaven????
in response to:
"Surely a firm belief is something that stays with you otherwise what worth is it if you can simply forget all 'beliefs' in the next life? Surely the biggest test is to be able to continue your beliefs in spite of such supposed evils (and before you jump on me thats not me saying that Hitler wasn't evil, simply a universal 'supposed' on other perceived 'evils'). "
i cant see the wood for the trees in this. i agree that it can be difficult to continue ones beliefs in spite of evil. although personally on reflection, i realise that evil actually strengthens my beliefs. its like the more evil i see or which comes against me. the more disgusted by it i am. the more forgiving i become. the more it rises in me that its high time to show the world more love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self control .. kind of like a reason to get out of bed in the morning.. i do believe we keep our beliefs in the next life (you are referring to heaven? ) ... as to some extent the beliefs of a man form his soul.. so i dont really understand the points your making, but if you so wish to clarify what you were saying, feel free....
you're totally right how people who witnessed the events at the time "interpreted" it by writing it all down. but by your logic and train of thought.. we would have to then say that there is NO authoritative and accurate knowledge regarding any of human history given that nothing but man has recorded all the events of the past which we today claim to "know" about. An interesting idea which is why i believe in the necessity of the Holy Spirit during historical and spiritual study of the bible...... consider the role of the Holy Spirit in this for a moment.....
but when you say it was then "interpreted" from those original greek and hebrew scriptures into english... that is a slightly unfair attack on diligent "TRANSLATION". you do sound like you've researched this more than i : "all the other accounts written at the time that were destroyed" i didn't know that, if you have a moment id be interested to know of your sources about that .........
"Indeed, other characters within the Biblical canon have been completely altered in order to fit in with what those in charge wanted rather than any form of historical accuracy. Mary Magdelaine for example. It was never stated that she was a prostitute. This is merely a creation of the Christian clergy etc in order to subdue the role of women."
thats very interesting. ive heard some women preachers use the fact that Jesus instructed mary magdelaine to tell the others that he had risen as justification for their preaching the gospel. and absolutely agree.. how can any male claim that mary magdelaine ... a female.. was not the first to preach the gospel? ... one thing which springs to mind on this particular point is: so what if she was a prostitute? Peter denied Jesus does that mean that all men since Peter are fickle?... etc etc etc .. why is this any reflection on all females? Indeed the virgin mary was no prostitute.. so whats this particular detail got to do with the role of women?
what this discussion really boils down to is the standing of the bible. ive heard people say the bible is the "infallible word of God" but personally.. today.. im not sure if i buy that... i believe the Holy Spirit brings the infallible word of God to those diligently seeking the truth and I also believe that anyone "worshiping" their bible itself is guilty of idolatry.... thats just my take on it... but your criticism of the church is in some respects absolutely warranted in my view. ever read this? :
Matthew 7:21-23
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom
of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will
enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy
in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name
perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me,
you who practice lawlessness.'
Indeed we’re getting into the realms of deceit and hypocrisy where what people say or claim to be becomes irrelevant in consideration of what they do and do not do............. this is slightly unfair though:
"For example, plenty is always made of the throwing out of the money lenders etc from the temple by Jesus. Yet how is this practice any different to the collection plate in modern day churches? Likewise, why are churches such grand ornate buildings? Surely this is in direct contrast to the humbleness Jesus preached about."
remember in (i think it was episode 1) of the passion... "give what belongs to cesear to cesear and what belongs to God to God".. Jesus said that did he not? ... thats NOT about people bartering buying and selling all sorts of items in a house of prayer.. giving to the church is about financing the work of God... amen ... ministry costs money like everything else .. and on top of gospel teaching.. have you researched the Churches humanitarian work going on nationally and internationally each and every day? .. the righteous or unrighteous use of such funds is the responsibility of church authorities... even if a humble Christian gave to a church with the intention of giving it to God. and that church abused the funds... the situation is larger than that Christian and that particular church... for the Christian was giving it to God himself not to the church itself...... God is larger than any "church" and i believe so long as that Christian was doing their best to be diligent.. would that Christian not be seen as any other who gave to good church works in the eyes of God?... do you follow? .. one thing you said which did interest me reminds me of something ive often thought...... that if God is omnipresent then what difference does it make when humans build a supposedly "Holy" building and call it a church? it makes no difference in my eyes...... Churches to me are indeed houses of prayer and places of worship, fellowship and congregation and no more or less than that..
regarding your comment on humbleness:
John 10:10
"The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance (to the full, till it overflows)."
That doesn’t look to me like the stereotype “have nothing and do without” Christian that the world would have you believe..... humility isn't a matter of unnecessarily doing without material possessions..... Abraham was incredibly wealthy as were many others in the bible who pleased God.. indeed i also believe its absolutely unnecessary to "hoard" possessions either.. but consider that we are stewards of this earth and all within it... in my opinion we need balance and to treat whats truly valuable as truly valuable and what isn't valuable as what isnt valuable... but yet a lot of what Jesus said i believe blends the spiritual and physical ... humility is a very broad term eg its humble to "turn the other cheek" etc...
"what is important is the message he brought (or it is claimed he brought if you prefer). A message that unfortunately has been kind of lost over the centuries being subdued by religious doctrine that has diluted and altered the message for personal gain by those authoritarian figures that have somehow managed to go full circle and return everything back to no different from what Jesus was preaching against with little to no resistance from those very people who claim to follow Jesus' teachings etc. "
amen. consider again these verses:
Matthew 7:21-23
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom
of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will
enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy
in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name
perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me,
you who practice lawlessness.'
and this:
James 1:27
27 Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.
its absolutely the Christian thing to do ... to turn away from the "worlds" "Christian" culture. if a million people who claimed to be Christian were absolutely wrong.. but you were among the righteous.. i believe you would be the one entering heaven .. so i respect your view of independent thought. absolutely..
independent thought if adopted more universally would also mean we each find our own understanding. there wouldn't be so much GROUPING going on ... which in my opinion is another root in the worlds evil.. but yet i believe we are ALL individuals, Christians, Atheists, Muslims etc etc... once we see that we are ALL individuals.. it follows then we are all ONE group. less wars hatred prejudice etc. and for my 2 cents i pray for us all.....
i wish you well.. hope you had a Happy Easter
chained to the wind
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filmbooth
16 years ago
I am curious as to whether or not you yourself are a Christian (I wouldn't want to assume either way, as a knowledge of the Bible etc does not automatically mean one is a Christian. I myself am not)
in regards to the point of Mary Magdelaine/prostitute, I agree that even if she had been a prostitute would have no relevence to me as to the importance of her role in the story of Jesus (surely all those involved are of importance, regardless fo their role), yet this is a modern viewpoint on it. In the days in which the untruth as to her character was put about, her status as a 'prostitute' would have completely wiped out her importance (hence she has essentially been dismissed as a fringe character by large numbers of people) due to a prostitute being regarded as little more than an untouchable of society. This is why it is important in regards to the standing of women (or at least numbers of people have used it thusly) as it has been used as a way of essentially undermining the importance of women in society.
As for the many other gospels etc that were destroyed or (intended to be destroyed in some instances) information on this point is very easy to come across if you wish to learn more about it (and you strike me as somebody who strives for knowledge) if you look for it. I will leave you to do that yourself as I feel knowledge found for yourself is always better and potentially more relevant than info given to you. The most famous of these, that you may have heard of, is the Gospel of Thomas. This is the one that strikes me the most as it depicts a more believable Jesus (for me anyway) without losing the main crux of his recognised message.
Also, in terms of the wiping out of alternate viewpoints etc in order to maintain the establishment of the Church, for whatever goal, is the practical annihialation of the Gnostics and their scriptures.
there are many sects etc that were essentially wiped out in order to ensure no threat to the establishment of a christian church by a number of authoritarian figures in the churches early days.
there are a number of differing viewpoints and scriptures etc, but it is all down to the individual to find what sits best with them. something that would have been a lot easier if alternate beliefs hadn't been destroyed centuries ago for fear of a threat to the establishment of the church.
Returning to the point of the wicked in Heaven etc, i appreciate that you never stated that wicked people would be in Heaven, that was merely my continuation on the point which i thought i had made more evident. However, why shouldn't they be there? Afterall, did Jesus not die for all our sins? I don't recall it being stated that he only died for us good folks sins, as surely us good folks wouldn't have any. So does it really matter what any of us do? Indeed, let he without sin cast the first stone.
If they are not there then where do the wicked go? I, personally, do not believe in Hell or a Devil figure, so where do these 'wicked' people go if not to 'heaven'? But that in itself is dependent on the individuals interpretation as none of us know what lies beyond. Indeed there may be nothing, we may purely cease to exist, no more, no less.
But, perhaps more imprtant, is how do we determine who is and isn't 'wicked'? One mans sinner is another mans hero.
Take for example the previous mention of Hitler (who I agree was a tyrannical man). The act of warmongering cannot be the reason why so many people class him as evil as he is not the first nor the last to wage war yet others haven't been classed as evil simply for waging war. The main reason given for his depiction as evil is his treatment of the jews, homosexual, gypsys etc. Yet how is this any different to the actions of the supposed heroes of the crusades or the like who systematically wiped out thousands of Muslims all in the name of Christ and the Church? Yet these people are classed as christian heroes.
Alternatively look at the allied bombing of Dresden during the second world war or Hiroshima/Nagasaki as evidence that the victors were little better than Hitler, they were simply on the winning side, and the victors always write the history books. Likewise, the accepted Bible was simply the winning gospels rather than the ONLY gospels, and so were included at the exclusion of others.
Likewise, murder is wrong, but what about the father who kills a man after a struggle during a robbery in order to provide for his family?
My point is nothing in this world is black and white, so throwing around terms such as 'righteous' or 'evil' can in itself be a dangerous way to go about things.
A 'sinner' on the cross next to Jesus reputedly was told by Jesus that he would enter into heaven with him. This despite the persons own admittance that he deserved his fate. But surely this 'evil', 'sinful' man shouldn't be allowed into heaven? Do you see my point?
All religions are simply a point of faith. But with all faith comes the potential of being wrong. It is something unprovable. Therefore, living your life according to the bible, or the Qur’an, or any religious viewpoint may not be the right way and may not guarantee you entrance into 'Heaven'. Indeed there may not be a Heaven. Alternatively, all religious viewpoints may be correct. There may be room for them all.
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