I don't really have an issue with the actor's race but... - Dragonball Evolution (2009) Discussion

[–] Self-Pos 11 years ago

I just don't get why people can be so hung up on superficial qualities such as hair and eye color, but can completely ignore all cultural relevance and sensitivity.

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Self-Pos 11 years ago

How about we just be racially sensitive across the board? Just because we honor characters that are meant to be Japanese, doesn't mean we're forced to accept characters that might be offensive.

I've never claimed sensitivity works one way. That's something you've come up with on your own.

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Self-Pos 11 years ago

Japanese characters based on a Chinese tale. That's like asking are the characters in The Departed meant to be Bostonians or from China, since that's where Infernal Affairs takes place.

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Self-Pos 11 years ago

Let me explain. You suggested that since the characters are based on a Chinese tale, perhaps they're actually Chinese.

Since it is based on Sun Wukong then perhaps they are meant to be chinese...

The Departed is based on a Chinese film. By your logic, perhaps those characters are Chinese as well.

Anyway, you're going off on tangents, talking about people perceiving Chinese and Japanese people as the same. That has yet to be suggested in this thread. Unless you're just saying it to say it, then fine. But it has nothing to do with my point.

They're Japanese because they're names/clothes/habits/ make it apparent.

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[–] HkizzIe 11 years ago

Here we go again.....

Cistane, journey to the west might mean nothing to you, but it's such a well known story in Asia the cultural significance it has on Asians is totally different from the impact it has on the average Western audience.

To cut it short, don't watch anime, anyone who doesn't get that Goku's clearly Asian needs to go watch disney because you have zero ability to appreciate cultural differences and established backgrounds.

Also, if you ever go to Japan or China, make sure not to eat the local cuisine, make sure to stick to the Americanized crap they serve up in the US. That unfortunately will be the little bubble you live in and you'll never really be able to experience the full variety and diversity the world offers.

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

That is a pretty closed minded statement. You lost all credibility in suggesting that anyone who sees Goku as potentially appearing white is somehow a bigoted cultural hermit.

It's not like he lacks white characteristics or that he appears distinctively Asian. Many people don't see him as a race, but as a character, so no I don't see him as Asian. I see him as a character in a fictional story where dogs are police officers and cats are part of gangs of orphan children.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

news flash cracker there can be race even in the fantasy genre. cracker why so much effert to explain that you simply wish for goku to be white? is it that hard for you to admit to yourself that you are racist?

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

"effert"? Really?

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] gtfo-78-427994 10 years ago

Dragon Ball NZ O_O Race aside, the movie was a disaster they failed so badly. :( I was looking forward to it, I even went to watch it on the big screen just once despite seeing the leaked screener. Later on I tried to like it again and bought the DVD :( I just could not bring myself to like it. Waste of money? Probably, but I've been collecting the stuff for years.

I really wish I did like it, I grew up on DB-Z-GT, but hey on a positive note Dragon Ball Z Battle of Gods was great. I hope they eventually make another live action I still have faith. While DBE shook it, "SMH A LOT" I still refuse to give up on them, for now at least. :P

Keep your friends close but make your avatars interesting Sun Tzu might have said

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[–] tachealexc 11 years ago

bcoz I don't give a *beep* if he's white, chinese, or japanese or korean or w/e ... as long as he looks like the guy in the manga/anime for the most part(aka don't make goku an arab or black because that wouldn't make sense)... goku in the manga is white(like all chars that aren't black, brown or red) so any actor that is white could play it be it caucasian or japanese(and don't tell me japanese isn't white... it;s more white than yellow) I DON'T GIVE A *beep* ABOUT ONE'S RACE as long as it makes sense ... to me White Goku makes as much sense as Japanese goku... Chinese goku would be a bit of a stretch unless they found a really white chinese guy...

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] tachealexc 11 years ago

do you even know what qualifies as racist? people have blown this race thing out of proportions...

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Yes they should be offended. I don't think you quite get the situation.

Here's a video that sums it all up nicely:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/3183-Skin- Deep

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Watch the video

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

Watched it, still not offended. Your premise assumes that the character is Asian by default, which he isn't necessarily. To a western audience he is probably white, and as this was targeted at that market, this was never an Asian role to begin with.
This isn't like replacing Bruce Lee in a remake of the Big Boss with Jason Statham, this is far more ambiguous.

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[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

Watched it, still not offended.

That's cause your white privilege blinds you.

Your premise assumes that the character is Asian by default, which he isn't necessarily.

He is Asian by default. He was created by an Asian, based on a classical Asian story and marketed specifically to an Asian audience.

There is not one thing that makes a case for him being white.

To a western audience he is probably white,

That's only because American media has made Western audiences think that whites are the center of all stories and are always the main characters.

and as this was targeted at that market, this was never an Asian role to begin with.

First of all, no this was not targeted specifically at an American audience. For example, the theme song chosen for the movie was a J-pop song entirely in Japanese.

Second, American ≠ white.

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

That's cause your white privilege blinds you.

Not a good starting point, this sort of throwaway argument is made by pseudo-academics all the time. Since the reasons I don't agree with the video aren't made clear to you, you're assuming there is no other possible justification other than some bland generic generalised assumption, the same asinine thinking that any bigot makes.

He is Asian by default. He was created by an Asian, based on a classical Asian story and marketed specifically to an Asian audience.

There is not one thing that makes a case for him being white.

Sure there is, this is someones product that they're selling to a target audience. Assuming your own ignorant assumption about white privilege is true, you cannot possibly deny that Goku being presented to a predominately white audience needs to be white. So pick an argument and stick with it. Personally, I like to go with my original point that you've not only failed to grasp, but also overlooked in your next quote and focused entirely on one line without the clarifying statement.

That's only because American media has made Western audiences think that whites are the center of all stories and are always the main characters.

Yawn.

First of all, no this was not targeted specifically at an American audience. For example, the theme song chosen for the movie was a J-pop song entirely in Japanese.

...You think this wasn't targeted at westerners because of a closing credits song? I'll need more than that.

Second, American ≠ white.

I never said it was, I also never said "American".

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[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

Since the reasons I don't agree with the video aren't made clear to you, you're assuming there is no other possible justification other than some bland generic generalised assumption

Actually, this is not a good starting point for you by acting so sure of yourself. You've made several comments in this thread already so you have made your perspective clear. Therefore mine was not a "throwaway" comment but a deduction.

Sure there is, this is someones product that they're selling to a target audience.

Only such a thought can come from the programing of the racist media that Hollywood pushes.

When American made media of superheros are released in Asia, they are not mislead in anyway to believe that the characters are Asian. They are fully aware that the characters such as Batman and Superman are white.

It is only on this side of the world where whitewashing happens and happens so much that the very thought of nonwhite heroes is foreign. So much so that even when a series is presented such as Dragon Ball when is clearly from an Asian country there will still be viewers that will imagine that the main character is somehow white.

Assuming your own ignorant assumption about white privilege is true, you cannot possibly deny that Goku being presented to a predominately white audience needs to be white

This is a poorly thought out sentence for your argument. The first phrase is you entertaining white privilege in this discussing but then go on to say that white privilege or not the character needs to be white? You basically just admitted to there being white privilege in that second phrase.

Also, he does not need to be white. Not being white hasn't stopped Will Smith's heavily successful movie career. Only a racist could not stand seeing Goku as he is meant to be: An Asian hero.

Yawn.

Don't flatter yourself.

I never said it was,

Who are you kidding? Your entire premise here hangs on it. You even had the audacity to claim that the role was, "never an Asian role to begin with."

I also never said "American".

You didn't need to. The movie was pretty much entirely an American production. Official word from the Japanese and Chinese producers have made it clear that Fox was not listening to any of their requests, advice, suggestions, etc...

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

Actually, this is not a good starting point for you by acting so sure of yourself. You've made several comments in this thread already so you have made your perspective clear. Therefore mine was not a "throwaway" comment but a deduction.

I'm sure to you this rings true. The reality however is not as you seem to think it is. I know the things I have and have not asserted, and an assessment of that video has not once been uttered in any comment. My assertions of my position on THIS character have. So your deduction, once again, is utter rubbish, especially given that you don't know my ethnicity.

When American made media of superheros are released in Asia, they are not mislead in anyway to believe that the characters are Asian. They are fully aware that the characters such as Batman and Superman are white.

It is only on this side of the world where whitewashing happens and happens so much that the very thought of nonwhite heroes is foreign. So much so that even when a series is presented such as Dragon Ball when is clearly from an Asian country there will still be viewers that will imagine that the main character is somehow white.

I've done a quick search for any Asian remakes of Superman and Batman, and I think Puneet Issar may disagree with you on that point.

I can't see any other remakes of either in Asian cinema, but feel free to correct me and provide some links that I can look up. I would like to see an Asian take on the classic western superheroes.

I am however very aware of a few Asian remakes of classic western movies in which the entire leading cast has been replaced with Asian actors, would you like a few sources of those?

I'm sure in all your years of exposure to Asian cinema you're also aware of the tendency to portray white actors as either the bad guys or bumbling inferior idiots, even persisting to this day, right? Personally, I still like Asian cinema, because I acknowledge that they have their own target audience to connect with and have no trouble grasping that having non-white leading characters is the best way for them to do this. No, it doesn't detract away from the story at all.

This is a poorly thought out sentence for your argument. The first phrase is you entertaining white privilege in this discussing but then go on to say that white privilege or not the character needs to be white? You basically just admitted to there being white privilege in that second phrase.

It was poorly thought out, because I type as I think. That doesn't however make it incorrect. It states that your assertion of him needing to be Asian doesn't hold water if you believe white privilege has as much influence as you seem to think. The USA alone has what, 70% caucasian ethnicity? So that is 70% of your target audience that, according to you, believe whites are the center of all stories and are always the main characters. These are your words. Why then, would they not cast a white actor? Please feel free to correct that figure if it is incorrect.

Also, he does not need to be white. Not being white hasn't stopped Will Smith's heavily successful movie career. Only a racist could not stand seeing Goku as he is meant to be: An Asian hero.

Didn't say he needs to be white, said I understand why they chose to make him white, and I don't think it makes much difference either way.

Who are you kidding? Your entire premise here hangs on it. You even had the audacity to claim that the role was, "never an Asian role to begin with."

Wrong again, I've always said that the majority of the audience would be white, not that America is a white nation.

And the reference to "never an Asian role to begin with" actually is suggesting that due to the way the animation is interpreted by a western audience he was never going to be seen that way by people in western countries.

You didn't need to.

Okay good, thanks for the superfluous information then.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

"I am however very aware of a few Asian remakes of classic western movies in which the entire leading cast has been replaced with Asian actors, would you like a few sources of those?

I'm sure in all your years of exposure to Asian cinema you're also aware of the tendency to portray white actors as either the bad guys or bumbling inferior idiots, even persisting to this day, right? Personally, I still like Asian cinema, because I acknowledge that they have their own target audience to connect with and have no trouble grasping that having non-white leading characters is the best way for them to do this. No, it doesn't detract away from the story at all. "

more bs from the racist cracker. there is no target audience garbage cracker. look at the box office # in asia you will see that hollywood movie make a lot of money there crckear. the truth is the opposit of what you claim cracker. ppl in asia is often too gilty of worshiping white cracker. so dont claim that audience nonsense cracker.

"The USA alone has what, 70% caucasian ethnicity? So that is 70% of your target audience that, according to you, believe whites are the center of all stories and are always the main characters. These are your words. Why then, would they not cast a white actor? Please feel free to correct that figure if it is incorrect."

you see cracker you are flip floping to what ever is convenient for your racist agenda. first you say goku race is ambiguous as if to say we dont know his race. now you claim there must be a race change to please the target audience in america. why the need to do that if his race is ambiguous? pls explain that one cracker. what is even dumber is that you make the claim for this movie. you might remember that fox did not bother to advertise the movie here knowing it will be a flop so they spend all there ad money in ASIA so what is this about white washing for there target audience cracekr/?

"
Didn't say he needs to be white, said I understand why they chose to make him white, and I don't think it makes much difference either way. "

of course not cracker you just want him to be white.

"
Wrong again, I've always said that the majority of the audience would be white, not that America is a white nation.

And the reference to "never an Asian role to begin with" actually is suggesting that due to the way the animation is interpreted by a western audience he was never going to be seen that way by people in western countries. "

dont be so smug cracker. america is getting less and less white every year. soon you will not be able to call this country your own cracker. enjoy being a minority cracker.

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

*movies *cracker *opposite *people *guilty *don't *flopping *America *please *advertising *their *cracker

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

dont you realise that you are making it obvious that i own you when that is how you reply cracker?

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[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

I know the things I have and have not asserted, and an assessment of that video has not once been uttered in any comment.

In response Razor187's comment, "Watch the video" you wrote:

Watched it, still not offended.

So I am not sure what you are playing at here.

I've done a quick search for any Asian remakes of Superman and Batman, and I think Puneet Issar may disagree with you on that point.

You're either very naive or very desperate. Whatever Issar made was not an official film. It's about as official as calling any fan film out there official.

I am however very aware of a few Asian remakes of classic western movies in which the entire leading cast has been replaced with Asian actors, would you like a few sources of those?

You need to quit while your ahead because you aren't using any new arguments.

The difference between the countries in East Asia (where official remakes of Western films have been produced) and the United States is that East Asian countries are homogenous. America is not. Therefore, diversity and specifically a non-Asian cast is not expected and not even possible.

I'm sure in all your years of exposure to Asian cinema you're also aware of the tendency to portray white actors as either the bad guys or bumbling inferior idiots, even persisting to this day, right?

You're unaware that in many of those cases it is a response to Western cruelty. For example, colonization. Hong Kong was governed by the British for many years and despite being a majority Chinese population their superiors were British. Many of those British superiors would abuse their authority.

Not to mention that in countries like South Korea and Japan where US still have military bases over there the Americans usually cause much trouble. Trouble like getting drunk and starting fights, drunk driving accidents, cases of rape and even incidents where citizens of those countries die.

This is in stark contrast to the motivations that fuel negative stereotypes of nonwhites in American media. Also, unlike American media which has the money to distribute their content all over the world, Asian movies are not distributed in mainstream channels outside of Asia. Therefore, these stereotypical portrayals of Westerners means nothing outside of Asian audiences living in Asia.

It was poorly thought out, because I type as I think. That doesn't however make it incorrect.

In your mind, it may be correct but to the rest of the world it made no sense so it was meaningless.

It states that your assertion of him needing to be Asian doesn't hold water if you believe white privilege has as much influence as you seem to think.

You're extending white privilege to areas that I was not. White privilege takes its affect in the Hollywood industry and media itself where the makers and producers get to decide who will be the leads in movies.

The USA alone has what, 70% caucasian ethnicity? So that is 70% of your target audience that, according to you, believe whites are the center of all stories and are always the main characters. These are your words

First of all, "Caucasian" is not really the term you want to be using since it isn't limited to whites. People in India and in the Middle East are classified as "Caucasian".

Second, you missed the context of what I said. Those in the audience who see whites as the center of all stories think so because American media has made them think that. No one innately believes this. However if you keep putting only whites as the main characters in movies then that's what they end up thinking.

Didn't say he needs to be white,

Err...

Your words:

Assuming your own ignorant assumption about white privilege is true, you cannot possibly deny that Goku being presented to a predominately white audience needs to be white.

Wrong again, I've always said that the majority of the audience would be white, not that America is a white nation.

The audience being majority white is meaningless unless you believe that white people are inherently racist and can't watch a movie that doesn't have a white lead.

And the reference to "never an Asian role to begin with" actually is suggesting that due to the way the animation is interpreted by a western audience he was never going to be seen that way by people in western countries.

An interpretation by a Western audience is meaningless if that interpretation is wrong. Goku is not designed as a white character. He is designed to be an Asian character. Most Westerners don't understand manga and anime art. When white characters show up in anime and manga, the designs make it clear. For example, white characters will usually have noticeably bigger noses, different chin structures and are even given different eye shapes.

It doesn't help that for decades anime series being released in mainstream channels in the U.S. (e.g. Speed Racer, Battle Of The Planets, Star Blazers, etc...) were actually whitewashed versions of Japanese animation. They would take the Japanese characters and change their names to Anglo-Saxon names to make it seem as if the characters are white. So it's no wonder that many Western audiences end up not understanding manga and anime art.

Okay good, thanks for the superfluous information then.

This coming from the guy who wrote "Yawn" as a response.

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

Okay, so to save on continuing this nonsense any longer lets just leave it at this:

I don't really have an issue with him being white, I think it was done as a way to engage western audiences in a traditionally Asian media. I don't consider it racist, is it fair? No. But does it bother me that they chose to replace the ethnicity of the character? No. I acknowledge there is benefit to being white in a western society, but nitpicking on every little thing that has already happened is just time wasting, especially when the source material is interpreted differently in the west and does have a sense of ambiguity.

More focus should be on the inclusion of minorities in cinema in general, not just one insignificant role. Personally, I think the US is far too capitalist and "every man for himself" for that to happen anytime soon.

All of this is my opinion, nothing you've said changes it, and I acknowledge that you disagree with me. Feel free to add anything you like at this point, I think we are done here.

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[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

I don't really have an issue with him being white

Being white could help with that.

I think it was done as a way to engage western audiences in a traditionally Asian media. I don't consider it racist, is it fair?

You're essentially saying that white people are so racist that they can't watch a movie unless the main characters are white. Yet, you don't consider that racist.

But does it bother me that they chose to replace the ethnicity of the character? No.

Being white could help with that.

I acknowledge there is benefit to being white in a western society, but nitpicking on every little thing that has already happened is just time wasting, especially when the source material is interpreted differently in the west and does have a sense of ambiguity.

There is no sense of ambiguity in the source material. Goku is an Asian hero. End of discussion.

Not all Westerners misinterpret Goku as white. The threads found on this board and the many participating in them is proof of that. Those that think that Goku is white are those that have not come out of the programming that Western media has instilled into them to see white as the default heroes and protagonists in media.

More focus should be on the inclusion of minorities in cinema in general, not just one insignificant role.

You've contradicted yourself. In order to talk about "the inclusion of minorities in cinema in general" you have to talk about individual episodes that take away those opportunities. Dragonball Evolution is one of those episodes.

Also, I wouldn't call Goku, who is one of the most well known and popular Asian heroes in all of contemporary media, a "minor" role. If he is minor then so is Superman.

Personally, I think the US is far too capitalist and "every man for himself" for that to happen anytime soon.

I agree that capitalism does play a major role but the specific problem here is the system of white supremacy.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

"Being white could help with that. "

exactly that is white privilege in a nut shell. of course when you accuse these cracker about white privilege they will 100% of the time not understand the concept so they will give you some sob story about how hard there life is as if to deny they have any white privilege.

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

Actually my life has been pretty awesome. Most issues I've had have been my own fault, not anyone elses.

Enjoy your level of disadvantage and obvious overwhelming case of jealousy.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

pretty awesome? dont think so cracker you sound miserable in this board and angry cracker.

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

Hey sexy, don't be like that. Let's just hold each other and make passionate love. I want to snuggle, are you a snuggler?

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

why dont you hold and snuggle yourself you fag.

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

I think I love you. Lets have babies. Lots of multiracial babies, and name them after each colour of the rainbow. My favourite one will be Magenta, and I will buy her a pony.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

you fag keep your sick fantasy to yourself.

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

Don't fight our love baby! Remember Magenta, the way she smiles when she rides her pony. Don't tell me you don't want that. It will be magical if you just believe...

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

what the matter cracekr did you lose your mind after you got own by 3 ppl in 1 thread? lol.

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

Oh 3 people hey? So you're into group stuff. I don't know that I have the stamina for that.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

this cracker dont want to admit he got own. come on cracker show some dignity.

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

keep dreaming cracker. of course you find it insulting just like every cracekr that pretend he dont care but act like a cry baby when posting to me cracker. 'big white penis'? white men have small dick. if you really do have big penis then there will be such thing as jungle fever. more white male fantasy.

since when do you crack any whip to a asian man cracker? that is more of your phony fantasy cracker. fantasy about cracking a whip and fantasy about having a big dick. so it is clear nothing you say is true including the size of your own penis. be honest cracker you have a little stump cracker.

come on cracker in another post you go on and on about penis size. it is clear that you have a small one. a big dick man dont need to harp about the penis size of other men to make himself feel big. the only person saying you have a big penis is yourself so it look like you think if you say it enough it will be true. so dont think for a second i belief that a man that keep trying to convince himself that he have a big dick really do have a big one in real life cracekr it is just more of your fantasy cracker.

quit your day dreaming cracker. no woman want a hairy white basterd like you. so i know for a fact that me calling you cracker is making you cry like a baby. you cry so much you convince yourself that it will be ok since that tiny little macaroni you have in your pants is a big one that women want.

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

I thought it took a lovely turn...:P

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

Not even bothering with most of this, since you're either misinterpreting or reading into a lot of what was said, but to clarify a few things:

1. Everything relating to race is not racism.
2. I'd say any movie that bombs is a "minor" role. I'd also call Green Lantern a "minor" role.

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[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

You write this:

you're either misinterpreting or reading into a lot of what was said

But then go on to write:

1. Everything relating to race is not racism.

That certainly is "reading into a lot of what was said".

2. I'd say any movie that bombs is a "minor" role. I'd also call Green Lantern a "minor" role.

Ah, so you used the word "role" in a different way then I interpreted. I see.

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

Hello,hi i happen to be a Caucasian who is from the U.S.A, so I thought id be perfect for the convo YAY!
Anyway the biggest problem with the whole question of race in this question is how you define it. If by color of skin, then there would only be two races white and black. I'm sorry if this is offensive. It is not meant that way. If we were all locked in a room together without sun for a year there is only one race that would not be snow white. If you define race as to where you come from then Goku could would not be considered Asian (by Asian I mean from the oriental, for some reason apparently that word is offensive, even though it actual means the place that Asian Asians are from) Since many of you may be Asian please explain that to me, and also tell me how the Indians and Russians feel about that if you can.
Plus, and I must apologize for this, you know what I don't, When I was a child I pictured Goku as Caucasian. Because I am Caucasian and my parents are Caucasian. Using the fact that he was made in Asia to mean that he had to be Asian is flawed. If that we're so then the African baseball player would have to be Asian.
But if you are arguing that he is a white (European, Asian, Latino, Arabian, Indian) person in Asia because of the culture and scenery shown then I would have to give it to you. Also since Goku is very much like Superman, and the writer admitted to Superman being the model then its a good argument for him to look more like an American European white person.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

another ignorant cracker. so you watch a show mean the person in the show is white? no cracker that is wishfull thinking from a racist bastard. i am sure ppl in asia that watch american cartoon dont think they are watching aisan ppl cracker. yes cracekr goku is like superman-the asian superman you idiot cracker.

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

Okay please calm down. Breath. I said when I was a child. When I was a child I had no idea that this "Animation" was any different than the other cartoons I watched. Then later I found out that it was Anime. I associated him since he is White. By that i mean color not race. Children must have been told that those Cartoon's were American white people. Those children would associate the things they watch with the things they know, which for most children is just their immediate family.
You are a very hostile person. Also the only person using racist, Derogatory terms, Which means your a hypocrite. You would never hire a white person over, what ever race you are, or prefer. Which if this is true means your opinion is completely irrelevant. Although I would still like to hear your opinion if you could say it in a polite tone, otherwise I will not be continuing a conversation with you, so there will be no point in replying. If you really want to reason with me and actually make me understand what your beliefs and reasoning behind those beliefs are, reply in a nice tone, and try to be as thorough and intelligent as you can be.
Thank you.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

"When I was a child I had no idea that this "Animation" was any different than the other cartoons I watched."

maybe all the asian culture in the show was a clue that you are not watching a american cartoon you racist crckaer.

cracker you are writing all this ignorant nonsense and you have the nerve to talk down to me like i am a child. cracker the child is you.

dont call me racist cracker. the racist here is you. i think calling goku a white man since you are white is pretty racist so dont pretend i am the bad guy here cracker. cracker i dont need to be polite to you. if you dont like it then too bad cracker. i dont need to be polite if you are being a white supremacist. do you think it make sense to be nice to a racist? it dont make sense to me crakcer.

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

Perhaps you don't understand CHILD. This show came on when i was 5. I didnt know that, that culture was asian. I was not that well versed in geography, nor in the cultures of different regions. I'm afraid we did not get to asian cultures intill around 7th grade. I cannot apologize for that, it was out of my control. I am not racist but i do not necessarily agree with you, so i guess you have the right to call me names. I said as a child I associated him with the people around me. I grew up in a small town and i did not know any Asian. I had never seen any asian and if I did I would probably have thought they were white. I'm not being racist by saying that but it is the truth. Through a childs eyes, since asians do not really look any different from whites, I would have considered them white not knowing that Race was defined by region that you hail from. I'm sorry to here that asian actors have a hard time finding jobs in hollywood.
If I shove you would you shove me back?
If I take things away from you would you take them back plus my things?
IF I hated you would you hate me back?
If I was racist against you, would you be racist against me?
Now take these questions and apply them to yourself and then to your neighbors. Then think if Racism would cause more racism. My theory is that hate causes hate and that it is a never ending cycle in-till somebody shows love, and love in tern causes more people to love and respect causes more people to respect. Exactly like the rational you used in this sentence "i dont need to be polite if you are being a white supremacist". You decided that since YOU believed I did not respect another race then you didn't have to respect me.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

dont call me a child cracker. you think like a child cracker. dont play dumb cracker. they use chop stick and do martial art in the show cracker. tell me what other american cartoon look like it cracker? so you did not know any thign about asian culture until grade 7. it is clear you know nothing about asian. you prolly dont see any asian only cracker after cracker. cracker being ignorant is no excuse. you are a idiot either way cracker.

cracker your question are dumb. posting a video dont cause more racism cracker it is you think cause more racism BY BEING RACIST YOURSELF crakcer. calling goku white is racism. thinking you are watching a white man when he is asian is racism. you are racism. cracker me not liking you will not cause more racism. you clearly know nothing. you are stupid and there is no problem to let you know cracker. cracker dont demand for my respect so you dont deserve any.

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

no no no I am sorry i did not mean that as calling you child. i meant perhaps you don't understand my meaning of child. a child around the age of 5-9, was when i saw this show. Man I must be writing these things very wrongly or English is not you native language, cause you have misunderstood me. If it is the former I apologize. I will try to explain myself better. I actually have taken a few classes in Asian culture here at the university of Tennesse but I do not pretend to know all about Asian culture. When I was a child All i new was my grandparents and my parents. I had seen and met several African Americans but did not have the opportunity to know any Asians, so I was ignorant. I'm sorry but being Ignorant is the only viable excuse there is in life. If you came in my house and didn't take your shoes off I would not yell at you, because your were ignorant of my rules.
I did not condemn posting that video. I was talking about what the video talked about. In the video he said that reverse racism is okay. Correct me if this is wrong, please. I just disagree. Any type of racism is not okay. Anyone who actually thinks that racism is wrong unless its against white people, needs to sit down and think about there hypocrisy.

Could you stop insulting me. Or perhaps tell me why you are so very angry with me. I am just here to express an opinion based on an actual fact. It's called association. Look up Pavlovs dog. It is very interesting reading.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

cracker i understand you cracker. you know nothing about asian so dont call goku white cracker. cracker i will stop insulting you as soon as you admit you are racist.

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

Okay so now you are not continuing the conversation. You must be very upset to just throw insults and not continue the conversation. I am sorry about that. If you would like for me to stop talking about this and expressing my opinion i will. I do not want you to get so angry, that you just use blind rage. Below this sentence is my rebuttal if you are very angry just don't read, and go calm down if you can, if not it was nice to talk to you.
I would consider Goku Asian because race is defined by where you are from. He was raised Asian. Although in the Show they say the race of Goku and Vegeta are Saiyans. Vegeta is all about preserving the Saiyan race. He is all about how great his race is. Man it seems like he may have been based off of Hitler. What race historically has been like this? Whites maybe?
Perhaps you do not understand that there is no genetic difference between race. The only race that has a genetic difference is the African race. They have denser bones.
If you are talking about skin color. First of all how very shallow of you. Secondly the only difference in skin color between an Asian and myself is that Asians have a yellow undertone and I have a green undertone since I am Mediterranean.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

no cracker you are just in denial since you cannot admit to yourself that you are racist. i do continue the conversation cracker what you cant understand is that i can insult you at the same time cracker. cracker goku and vegeta are saiyan that is suppose to look asian just look superman is a alien that is suppose to look like a cracker. you really think vegeta is suppose to be a model for hitler? do you really think of a black hair black eye man like vegeta when you think hitler? get real cracker.

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[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

Check your PM.

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

If I remember correctly from the history classes I took in high school, I believe Hitler did have jet black hair. While his eyes were very dark I do not know as to the exact color. They may have been a very Dark blue, Maybe brown. IDK it is kind of hard to tell, his eyes are very dark. He was also very short. For a caucasian. He stood around 5'7 -5'8. Thats alot shorter than Franklin D Roosevelt who stood 6 foot 2. Idk it was just a connection I always made. Their are a lot of similarities. But who knows maybe the creator of the Dragon ball universe didn't use any inspiration from the outside world, except for Journey to the west. He just came up with characters and situations that were very similar to that of Superman vs Zod and WW2. Idk. I cannot find a quote from him explaining any other inspiration, Just as I cannot find a quote from Him saying race.
The questions shall loom forever.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

cracker dont tell me you are serious. vegeta is not suppose to be hitler cracker. vegeta is suppose to be a asian man. do saiyan loook any thing like aryan that hitler want to take over the world? stop kidding yourself cracker.

cracker youa re babbling all over the place. now talking about franklin d roosevelt as tall. wtf? this cracker is such a idiot.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

That's completely absurd. There are plenty more skin colors than that: brown, yellow (i.e. Asians), red. There's also the anthropological "three races": Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid (i.e. Asians). However you slice it, Asian is a separate race. They are NOT white people.

Your next paragraph is even more ignorant. Even if you were a child, you were still a very ignorant one. I'm a white American too, but even I knew damn well that he was Asian. Come on man, this was after Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat had already made it big. Didn't you even hear the character's name? Sounds a lot more like Liu Kang than Johnny Cage, doesn't it?

Though to be fair it's not exactly your fault. The media brainwashes us to think white is the default and that anything else has to be depicted as a racist caricature.

Last but no least, Goku is not based on Superman, he is the Monkey King of Journey to the West. He even has the same name. This is ridiculously common knowledge.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

Mongoloid only differs from Caucasoid by the features of their face. I would be considered Mongoloid because of my high cheek bones. Because I am part native American, but it is weird how many Mediterranean people have High cheek bones as well. The whole bases of the difference between Mongoloid and Caucasoid was off of weather Meiner thought they were good looking or not. The good looking he called Caucasoid the other Mongoloid.
I was a very young child when I watched this. 5-9 years old. At that age most children associate almost everything with their-selves. I'm sorry but that is a fact. You must have been taught about Asian culture at a young age. Bravo for your parents for teaching you about different cultures. Otherwise you would in no way have known what Asian meant. Unless you were a very very bright 5 year old who loved to read books about other cultures, that you just happened to choose yourself out of the library. If this is so Bravo even more.
I also find it funny how they consider us different races based on the angle of our facial structure but will not acknowledge the people who have and enlarged bump (an Anatolian bump) on the back of their head as a different race.
His character (by that I mean actions) is based on the monkey king. However the fact that he was an alien and that he was very moralistic was based off of Superman. This is ridiculously common knowledge.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Nope, just common sense. And again, this was after other works in the same genre had been popular for a while too, so you must have really been under a rock.

He is not based on Superman at all. Being an alien was a plot twist that came much later in the story (and he was moralistic from the start). At most you can say the PLOT is similar, not the character.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

So since Race (by the definition you adhere to) is based on facial angle, you must agree that in this show they do not show this very well. If you adhere to the definition of race as to where you are from you could call him Asian, but Saiyan would be the Race they actually say in the material. You know maybe just maybe they used him as an alien and drew him fairly ambiguously (I use to associate Kakarot to myself because I have always had a hair line that goes up on the sides) so that they could sell him to children everywhere. IDK.
But you would think since they are making remaking it with Kai, they would have used the better animation to make a distinction. Alas they did not. So we will all debate when they probably left him where he looked enough like a white person so that they could easily sell it to a white audience. Because at our basic level we like to keep with people who are like us. Another fact from psychology, does not mean that I or you perceive ourselves that way. Nor even that we act on that instinct. I believe they left him looking enough either way so that they could sell in the Americas and in Europe, those money hungry company's haha

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

It's a damn cartoon. Family Guy and The Simpsons aren't realistic to human appearances either, in fact I'd say they do a much worse job at race in this regard.

Everything you're saying about "easily sell it to a white audience" is just completely wrong. The anime boom didn't happen until later, and the style had existed long before for decades. Manga/anime creators back in those days would never have expected their works to leave Japan.

And no, Saiyan is not "the Race they actually say in the material", at least not in the same context. Because it can mean two distinct things: species (i.e. the human race) or ethnicity. The context you're speaking of is the former. And you probably heard this in a dub, am I right? I highly doubt in the original language it was something in reference to ethnicity.

Oh and as for "Because at our basic level we like to keep with people who are like us."

NO WE DON'T. By the logic most people would be homosexuals than vice versa. What in the hell does "like us" mean anyway? There are a million different ways people can be similar.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

Okay, I am going to stop the conversation here. I apologize that my opinion has upset you. I'm sorry that you wore your anger on your sleeve. I replied to you because you seemed the most civil out of the people who were debating, for your point. I was wrong. You are very angry, causing you to look at my statements in a small view. I will not try and continue to explain. You will not understand me.
Have a wonderful Day, or Night.
It was a joy to have, had, a fairly intellectual conversation on the internet of all places. Thank you for replying to my statements and for expressing your views.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

In other words, you can't defend your position and/or realize you're wrong.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] kobeandodom 9 years ago

why would Goku be played by an Asian actor, or why should he be portrayed to be Asian? Goku is 100% sayian, I never thought that Goku resembled Asians at all, but many of the other characters were supposed to be Asian such as Chi Chi.

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[–] JohnBonDon 9 years ago

Aside from Chi Chi, who are the other characters that you think were supposed to be Asian?

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

"Watched it, still not offended. Your premise assumes that the character is Asian by default, which he isn't necessarily."

he is not white. he dont need a name tag to identify his race cracekr. cracker insted of sticking your head in the sand why dont you watch for all those obvious visual cue that point to him as a asian man cracker. of course you wont since you are racist and the sad truth is you like a lot of racist cracker inthis board will NEVER watch the show in the first place if it was obvious goku is asian man. cracker dont use the word ambiguous as a way to justify that you wish goku to be white since you are too racist to relate to a asian character. dont think you can replace the the sentence 'i hate asian' with 'his race is ambigous'. it is not that simple cracker.

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

*doesn't *cracker *don't *an *won't *in this *Goku *an Asian *an *don't

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

you got own cracker.

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

Thank you for posting this video. But this tactic is very hypocritical. To ex out racism lets be racist to the only people who have every judged people by race white people. That won't create even more animosity between races. What happens when you give on child all sorts of toys and chances and give nothing to(even take away things) from the other. It makes them fight and hate each other. If you really think that the government is trying to get rid of racism with this tactic you are very much kidding yourself. I am sorry, to break it to you but racisim even if well intention (not sure if you can really justify it, except by conditioning, when one type of person always does something you will expect all of those to do it, Its just the way the human brain works)Just creates more racisim.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

another strategy from a racist cracker to bully ppl to stop threatening your white privilege by pretending taht talking about racism make more racism. no cracker that is not how it work. there will not be less racism by sitting on our ass and letting cracker like you enjoy your white privilege while every one else get nothing. we cannot depend on racist cracker like you to be generous cracker.

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

No i said being Racist creates more racism. Could you tell me your race so I may call you by a derogatory term please. The fact that you cannot be civil is a sure sign of what type of person you are, and nothing you say will actually have an impact if you are not civil. Please expand more on what you are saying. I would actually like to understand your way of thinking. So please reply. Thank you.

But also if you don't mind please reply in a polite manner. I would like to have a real conversation about this.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

there is no creating racism here exept the nonsense that you are posting cracker. to think that any threat to your white privilege will make more racism is the point of view of a white supremacist. the only thing that keep more racism is garbage like saying goku is white since you are white. that is so ignorant it cant be from a real person. you must be so racist to think so.

telling cracker like you that you are stupid and racist dont make more racism. you will still be the same racist cracker so how do racism increase? if you want to know my race i am white. cracker if you think what i tell you have no impact then the problem is you dont want to lisen and you will accept nothing exept your own racist point of view.

cracker you cant have a real conversation since it is clear you will only accept a white supremacist point of view cracker. dont act like you are mature here cracker. you are acting like a kid. no adult will think any cartoon will take the form of a viewer. like i say cracker do you think ppl in asia watch a superman cartoon and thinking they are watching a asian man? of course not. there is your real conversation take it or leave it cracker.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

...Huhh?? What are you referring to? What "racism against whites"?

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

I was referring to the video posted. It says that it is okay to be racist against whites in America, for now. It says it in the video i am just pointing out that you cannot solve hate with more hate. I just do not agree with the video saying a double standard is okay as long as it is leaving the white male with the short end of the stick. Just pointing out a flaw that the person in the video admits is there. I just believe it to be a bigger deal than he does. However, the American Government is slowly revoking the laws that require you to hire so many minorities because they admit if they continue to prefer one over the other they will just make things worse.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

The one that I had linked to? Again, what racism against whites?

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

Yes your video. If you had watched the video you linked. You would have heard him say that it is okay to hold whites to a double standard, as long a whites get the short end of the stick. He says that it is not a perfect solution but He thinks that it will be okay. I believe hate breeds more hate. Thats all. I do not believe that racism should be tolerated. Even if you are racist for a good cause,(I don't believe that racism can be for a good cause but the person in the video believes thusly).

I do not wont to get into racism. Because It seems no matter what you say, if you bring it up someone will call you one. Even if you are completely and totally against it.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Whites WON'T get the short end of the stick, that's the whole point. Losing one character here or there does not have any impact when there are billions and billions more. Even in the example cited, that character was extremely minor with 1 minute of screen time. The characters who were actually important were all white.

It boggles my mind how you can say "What happens when you give on child all sorts of toys and chances and give nothing to(even take away things) from the other. It makes them fight and hate each other." when THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW TO MINORITIES. They are not given chances and having their heroes taken away from them. Whites are nowhere close to that being the case for them.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

I seem to remember there being millions of anima's, and many more manga's. While they are not as world renown as some of the Comic books characters, the Japanese manga has deffinantly left its mark on the 21st century. Since there are so many characters, would Asians be upset if Yamcha or Tien in a Dragon Ball Z movie were white? Because, hey, they are not really main characters in that series. For the majority probably not. Just like when they changed nick fury to African or when they changed The asgardian to African. For the majority nobody cared. Sure their are some fanatics who yelled their heads off, and Historians were like WHAA? But who cares.
I just think that double standards are wrong, and you find them to be fine. Because the double standards are against whites and you believe since the whites have so much they should share and minority should not share. We will never agree on this, and there is no use in debating it. It was nice of you to expand on your opinion and really define your stance. I can understand you stance now. You explained yourself very well. I don't agree but I can see the steps you took to get to your logic.
Thank you, and have a nice day.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

What's that matter when all of them get whitewashed by Hollywood?

Yes people did care about those situations, that's what prompted the author to created that video in the first place. Go to the board for the new Fantastic Four movie and tell me no cares about that.

It's not that "minority should not share", it's that they don't have anything to share. Nor is it that I "believe since the whites have so much they should share", it's that when that does happen it means nothing.

And although the author considered it a double standard, it's really not. A double standard is defined as "the application of different sets of principles for similar situations, or by two different people in the same situation". But as explained, the situations are not similar at all.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

Don't worry. I think that if it is stated in the material or by the author as to the character's anything. It should be portrayed that way in film. I don't care for Hollywood changing the races of characters.
The Avatar the Last Airbender boggled my mind, with just how bad they did, with not just the casting of people who were not the race shown in the show. I believe though not entirely sure, that the Fire nation was Japanese, The Water was Inuit/Indian, the earth was white with some Africans (The Boulder, was definantly supposed to be Dwayne Johnson), And Air was supposed to be Chinese. IDK why they would cast Indonesian's as the Fire nation because they were defiantly light skinned, so either Asian or Caucasian. Why they cast very light skinned caucasians as the Water nation IDK (they could have had them go get tans or something). But in that show all of the races share some form of asian culture. Kind of like in DBZ. We see several different people with different hair color and skin tones, But they all seem to share the same culture. Kind of like it is supposed to be a perfect world.

However, I do not hold a double standard. I don't think anyone should play a character outside of their own race, unless they make them seem like they are that race and they have permission like Johnny Depp in the lone ranger. The only way for it not to be a double standard is if any race gets to play any race or if they use the race that was in the source material, Or of course if you take a premiss from a story then make your own story, and characters.

However, as you stated before you could see how a person raised in America could grow up thinking that Goku was white. I was one of those people. However, now that I am an adult I have learned where he is from and so on. So just for me because I grew up thinking he was white, really associating him with myself cause of having the same forehead and black hair, I wouldn't mind if an asian or White person played him.
If the Author says that the Saiyans were supposed to look like Asian Human beings, Then my mind will completely change and I would only like to see an Asian play that character. Or even if he actually gets to have input the next time and chooses an Asian actor, then I will think of Goku as only Asian. Intill then, I'm sorry but because of having thought he was white for most of my childhood, I wouldn't be as upset as people like yourself who new he was asian while they watched it.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

ZERO characters in the Avatar: The Last Airbender were white. None. People who have worked on the show have said the characters are Asians and Native Americans.

What "permission" did Johnny Depp get for The Lone Ranger? Many Native Americans did protest it. And this doesn't matter at all. The fact of the matter is a Native American actor was denied a major role in a major film.

No, it's not a double standard because whites and minorities are not on equal footing. What about that are you not understanding?

What I stated about "you could see how a person raised in America could grow up thinking that Goku was white" was that those people were ignorant and/or racist. And you are still ignorant and racist if you defend the whitewashing.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

Ohh look at that. Well I assumed since the characters that played the Earthbenders were of a milkier skin than the other nations, and many had brown hair, some were even black. Huh, maybe we shouldn't rely so much on how they were drawn to show our point. Kinda of like that how your whole bases is that Goku's hair and eyes are Darker than the leaders of the red ribbon army leaders. And the whole story line was for Avatar last Airbender was derived from Harry Potter and Lord of the rings. Kinda like how Dragon ball was derived from Monkey king. Plus it was made in America so Doesn't that make them White by default. Well I guess not because the writers have stated what their races are.
( See what I did there?) Maybe we should just go off of what the author say's.

He received permission from the tribe that Tonto was from. Your on the computer Google it. I find that to be fine, It's like if a black guy got permission from Roger Marris's family to play him and they gave it to him.

I don't defend Whitewashing. I defend that Goku was left Ambiguous, Unlike the people in the Avatar who's creators actually gave them a race.

Do you agree with the Indonesians denying Oriental Asian actors jobs in Avatar?

Since you are again resorting to name calling and blatant anger Ill join in with my opinion of you.

Well if you continue to treat minorities like they are not on equal footing and that they do not have the creativity to create their own superheroes or characters, then I say you are the one with the prejudice.

You just continue to LOOK DOWN like you want to help. People like you make me sick. Your the person who treats a handicapped person well because of their handicap not their person. You should treat everyone the same, with respect. But no, you think the white race is superior which is why you do not mind if white people toss minorities a bone like a dog. Why not create a whole new character who is Black for Thor? Why do you think that Whites should just put the Black man in a side character who Is white in the source material? That is the most demeaning thing you can do. "Here you can have this character minority we have plenty to spare, no need to make you own character, or us make a character for you, that would be to much work."

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Ohh look at that. Well I assumed since the characters that played the Earthbenders were of a milkier skin than the other nations, and many had brown hair, some were even black. Huh, maybe we shouldn't rely so much on how they were drawn to show our point. Kinda of like that how your whole bases is that Goku's hair and eyes are Darker than the leaders of the red ribbon army leaders. And the whole story line was for Avatar last Airbender was derived from Harry Potter and Lord of the rings. Kinda like how Dragon ball was derived from Monkey king. Plus it was made in America so Doesn't that make them White by default. Well I guess not because the writers have stated what their races are.
( See what I did there?) Maybe we should just go off of what the author say's.

Yes, what you did there was spout a bunch of nonsense. Go on that board with those points and see how long it takes before you're ripped apart.

He received permission from the tribe that Tonto was from. Your on the computer Google it. I find that to be fine, It's like if a black guy got permission from Roger Marris's family to play him and they gave it to him.

Doesn't matter, it's still whitewashing and racist.

I don't defend Whitewashing. I defend that Goku was left Ambiguous, Unlike the people in the Avatar who's creators actually gave them a race.

He was not "left ambiguous" and yes you are defending racism. You're bending over backwards trying to justify racist casting.

Do you agree with the Indonesians denying Oriental Asian actors jobs in Avatar?

What the hell are you talking about? What Indonesians?

Since you are again resorting to name calling and blatant anger Ill join in with my opinion of you.

Well you ARE ignorant and racist, and proved it again earlier with the "I defend that Goku was left Ambiguous" comment. Only ignorant racists would think so.

Well if you continue to treat minorities like they are not on equal footing and that they do not have the creativity to create their own superheroes or characters, then I say you are the one with the prejudice.

That's what Hollywood does.

You just continue to LOOK DOWN like you want to help. People like you make me sick. Your the person who treats a handicapped person well because of their handicap not their person. You should treat everyone the same, with respect. But no, you think the white race is superior which is why you do not mind if white people toss minorities a bone like a dog. Why not create a whole new character who is Black for Thor? Why do you think that Whites should just put the Black man in a side character who Is white in the source material? That is the most demeaning thing you can do. "Here you can have this character minority we have plenty to spare, no need to make you own character, or us make a character for you, that would be to much work."

Again you talk of Hollywood's mindset, not mine, the author of the video, or anyone else here. Understanding that whites have not suffered centuries of oppression and are privileged does not mean thinking they are superior. Oh and making a new character just to have a black guy is just as much bone-tossing tokenism, so it makes no difference either way.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

Since you actually did not address the point's I made I will only be replying to your comments that actually carry a conversation.

So unfortunate to skip a conversation of na uh uh huh, I have to disregard your first two reply.

Meant to write Indians, Darn spell check on here always seems to change things into the wrong thing.

Name calling again. You big goober you.

I agree that Hollywood does not treat many minorities like they are equal. "Hachi: A dogs tale" is probably the most blatant show of Rasicim that we have seen in the last few years. Because it is a True story and therefore they cannot use the "Adaptaion" line (which they could use for this movie since it is totally different from the source material). But your video condones giving minorities hand outs, instead of giving them an actual chance. Creating an entirely new character is much less demeaning, then they are actually giving the minorities a chance to HAVE a character that will be theirs, will not have been a white character that Hollywood just felt like using to feel their black quota. (Actually having a black quota is demeaning as well, in-till they make a White quota) Because giving minorities a white character might make them feel okay for a moment but it doesn't fix the problem. Creating a whole new character actually fixes the problem. Plus complaining about how Hollywood whitewash's and not suggesting won't fix anything. Going and seeing independent films will help. Big corporation must fall or fix their problems or others must rise, its the way things are. If the Minority (and Caucasian) community's did not go and see these offensive movies, Hollywood will notice, and will correct their problem. If people would actually do the things needed, like boycotting racist movies, then we wouldn't have to put up with it. We are deffinantly In agreement that Hollywood is bad. But our methods on how to correct the problem are completely different.

But hey at least we're both thinking and that means we're not dead yet. Keep thinking.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

No it does not say that handouts are the best option (it actually says that it is much less than ideal), nor is it encouraging that producers go out of their way to do that. The simple point being made is that when it does happen that way, it is not damaging and thus the two situations aren't comparable.

And just what the hell do you mean "Plus complaining about how Hollywood whitewash's and not suggesting won't fix anything"? Who is "not suggesting"?

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

It is damaging. It is actually very demeaning to the minorities. Plus it damages the vision of the Author and of the fans who held a connection with the character. Changing character's that are already written down is a big deal. Go look at the man of steel page and see how people are feeling about what they did to the Boy scout. Adding a Character is not demeaning especially if you make it a fairly big character and keep it in those movies. I just don't agree that double standards are a good enough solution like the person in the video. "Sure its not a perfect solution, but we don't live in a perfect world". That's probably what they said when they invented slavery to cope for the lack of work force.

Suggesting solutions. I havent heard a suggestion of a solution to Whitewashing out of you. Even-though all you have been talking about is how bad it is.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Whites do not face discrimination from Hollywood, minorities do. Whites are not deprived of positive media/cultural representation, minorities are. Those are the issues here, not fanboys. What about this is so hard to understand?

No solution?? Have you been paying any attention at all? It's simple: stop hiring whites to play nonwhite characters.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

I have not disagreed with anything you said in your first two sentences. I don't agree with your solution. Why is that so hard for you to understand. I don't believe that you have to hold a double standard against whites to lift up minorities. Which is the solution that is stated in your video.

I agree stop hiring whites to play stated minority roles. But also stop hiring minorities to play stated white roles. That way the world is even. Or hire anybody to play anybody. (But the second solution is very controversial, unfortunately I think that is the solution Hollywood is trying to go with)

I don't agree with the solution stated in the video. Because I do not agree with holding a double standard, Period!

However, I agree with cultural differences. I think that cultural differences are a good thing and that we should respect other cultures. Which is why, I don't get upset when movies are made with all blacks, or Asians, or Mexicans, or Indians. I just wish that people would not get offended when they make a movie with all whites. I mean they legally had to put Africans in Troy. Historically there would not have been any there. Having to have a Token minority is wrong, it is so racist it is not even funny. If a story takes place in Wyoming, guess what there should not be any minorities, excluding native americans, there are only 4,000 Africans, and 2500 Mexicans (technically white but considered a minoritiy in america, go figure) and 1500 Asians in the entire state. Being realistic (or true to a story) should out way being politically correct. However, in America we have laws that, at least I consider, racist, and demeaning.

When the government cannot even treat people equal how can they expect their people to.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Once again that is not "the solution that is stated". No one is saying that producers should be doing this at all. What we are saying is that when it does happen, it does not damage whites, who have such overwhelming cultural dominance and privilege. If you think this is a "double standard", what about the hatred and oppression nonwhites have been suffering for centuries?

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] keeperspencer 11 years ago

Actually, he agrees that the solution is good enough and condones it in the video.
No. A group of people having a huge amount of culture is a good thing. Plus, there are more white people in the world, so it stands to reason that they would have more story's and so forth. Does that mean they should be MADE to change their stories, culture, and stated characters to cater to other cultures?
I don't think so.
I believe that minorities should be proud of there culture and that they should create there own forms of medium. Like the Asians have done. Actually the Asians have done a very good job with creating their own superheroes and films. Plus in India. India's cinema has done well all over the world.

However, that is in country's where there is basically one culture. It's harder in America. Frankly I believe that the owners of the production company's are going to show there culture through their films. Which is fine. I just believe that America needs minority run production company's. Which is what solves the problem. Also we are beginning to see this happen.

When you go to another country you don't complain because they don't have a hotdog, you enjoy their culture and foods. That's the way we should see films. Unfortunately Minorities are underrepresented in many fields. But they are a minority so it stands to reason that there would not be as many companies catering towards them as there would be whites. However, I agree that there should be more stories, movies, etc... that cater to minority's. But I believe that they should be started by those minorities and run by those minorities. A caucasian cannot tell the story of a minority. I believe in hard work. I also believe that there is huge opportunity in America for minorities to create there own company's to show the world there culture. Our world has taken leaps and bounds in the last 60 years.

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[–] Razor187 10 years ago

Not as anything more than a starting point. The same author has done similar ones for video games and there is adamant that it go beyond character customization and be the face on the box.

I didn't say "a huge amount of culture", I said dominance and privilege, which are not good things because they come from the oppression of others.

"A caucasian cannot tell the story of a minority."

WTF??? YES THEY CAN. The Color Purple, Ali, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, Slumdog Millionaire, The Last Emperor, Rush Hour 1-3, Beloved, Red Tails, Django Unchained, Traffic, American Gangster, Letters from Iwo Jima, Ray, Apocalypto, The Call, Mortal Kombat, Finding Forrester, Frida, Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story, Remember the Titans, Get Rich or Die Trying

I could go on all day. Point is there are plenty of movies made by whites with minority leads. So that is absurd and ridiculous bullsh*t.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] lightning_lj 11 years ago

if goku wasn't native to e-arth to begin with, why use an asian actor at all? for all we know he could very well have triangle eyes like in the anime

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Tuvok in Star Trek is not native to Earth, but are you seriously going to tell me that he isn't black and it would be acceptable for a white guy to play him?

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] lightning_lj 11 years ago

@Razor187: if dragon ball were live action to begin with and they used an asian actor as goku then it would be acceptable. But for a cartoon it's harder to tell. You're comparing apples to oranges here. I also think it's silly to debate his race at all rather than the bigger issues:

- he was in high school - he was only educated in martial arts. Even in his teen years he spent the majority training with kami and popo.

- no tail or even mention of him having a tail - although grandpa gohan warned him it would be his weakness, he never did remove it.

- he had social interaction with people other than grandpa gohan - the first person he met was bulma, before that he didn't even know what a girl was.

- oozaru: WTF are they trying to pass off as the great ape oozaru? In the anime it was clearly a giant monkey (and reffered to as monkey or monkey garbage numerous times throughout the series) and instead we are treated to this reptillian/voldermort looking abomination

- His lack of his trademark innocence - Being raised by his adopted grandfather, in the woods, he was sheltered away from the rest of the world not knowing any impurities or evilness of human nature, He just saw the good in everything and if something wasn't human it was food which brings me to my next point

- His abnormal appetite - Although it was touched on with subtlety when grandpa gohan made this big meal. Goku's insatiable hunger came at some of the most inappropriate of times for comical purposes mostly

- i'm just being nit picky with this one but he didn't even use power pole. That was one of his trademark attacks in the cartoon

- shadow crane strike - WTF IS THIS??? I could have sworn that grandpa gohan knows the mirror image technique

I think the only one of characteristic that they did show was his reluctance to fight but even then he had to restrain himself. The party scene he didn't really fight, he just jumped around and the group of bullies hurt each other

suddenly his race doesn't seem that important now, does it?

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

As I said to the OP at the start: I don't think you quite get the situation.

Here's a video that sums it all up nicely:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/3183-Skin- Deep

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] lightning_lj 11 years ago

all i'm wondering is why is everyone up in arms about goku's race when there are just soooooo many more things wrong like the ones i stated plus more

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Did you not watch that video? It makes it perfectly clear why everyone is up in arms.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"I kind of have an issue with saying "Goku's clearly meant to be Japanese" when he's pretty explicitly identified as looking like an alien monkey man (Japanese is a nationality, not a 'look')."

So then is Chi Chi an alien monkey too? They are practically just the other with a sex change.

"If Toriyama envisioned him as having Japanese traits, I get it. And if he did, i think he should have made some kind of statement saying so when they made the movie.
...
Quiet frankly, as far as I'm concerned, Goku's features are what I see on the tv screen (an inhabitent of bizarro world where nobody is any nationality) from the anime, until Toriyama says otherwise."

He shoudln't have to. It's not his fault you don't have enough common sense to figure it out. Does the creator of The Smurfs need to explicitly say that they're blue? Or that their houses are mushrooms?

"But, saying casting him as Caucasian was inheritantly racist is a bit silly."

Yes it is. As the video explained, minorities do not get many chances for decent representation and only have a tiny amount of viable characters. Taking away one of the scant few oppurtunities that they have and giving it to a race that is already overly privileged is inherantly racist.

"It was an American version of dragonball, just like The Departed is an American version of Infernal affairs."

American DOES NOT default to white. And no, it was not Americanized like The Departed was. Notice how that one CHANGED THE NAMES?

"Saying its racist because story logic says 'this, this, and this...' doesn't hold much ground."

Actually yes it is in that sense as well. It's the same old mighty whitey/white savior trope. The nonwhites are too weak and incompetent (if not evil themselves), they need the white man to save the day.

"The audience identifies him as probably looking like he comes from Japan, because that's where the manga came from."

No, they identify him that way because he LOOKS that way and characters that are white are made distinctly different.

"But the Goku character, in story is an alien whose only racially defining trait is a freaking TAIL"

First of all, a tail is not a racial trait in any way. Ethnicity is not about what appendages one does or doesn't have. Secondly, yes he does have obvious racial traits. Black hair, black eyes, a skin tone consistent with other characters everyone seems to agree are Asian. That's enough to go on.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"Unless their historical, real life figures, or a role where race is actually an issue, I just don't see why 'race' needs to matter. And that cuts both ways"

First of all, historical real life figures have been changed in movies from minority to white, and yet there is no shortage of racists who defend it. Look at Argo and 21. And secondly, did you not see the video I linked to? That should make it crystal clear why this matters. You say I'm being selective yet are ignoring what explains my point.

"2nd, for Saiyans the tail is a racial trait. They also have hair that never grows or changes, and black eyes. Those are traits that identify them generally as Saiyans. Ethnicity, which is what your referring to, isn't race."

Saiyan is not a race, it is a species same as vampires or werewolves or Vulcans or Kryptonians. And yet you don't see anyone try to claim that those characters don't have races. And yes, race means ethnicity. When a form asks for your race, you are not going to answer with human.

"None of the characters in the manga, anime or otherwise, are identified as Japanese or Caucasian. According to your criteria of what counts as identifiers as 'Japanese' in manga artwork, then Bulma, her family, 18 and 17, Launch, Marron, half the Sailor-Scouts, Light etc are Caucasion. Anime-style is usually very ambiguous. Black hair and pale skin doesn't nessacarily = Japanese"

The Sailor Scouts are from an entirely different work made by an entirely different artist and has an entirely different set of rules. That's like saying The Simpsons aren't white because they don't look like The Flintstones. And who the hell is Light? But yes, all those DB characters are white.

"I'm not defending what they did here. Its just that saying certain people should be excluded because a made up person, whose ethnicity isnt EVER an issue, because a charcter is 'meant' to look a certain way sits wrong with me. It doesn't helped entrenched racism, it just further highlights that there is a supposed line between (I feel gross saying this, it's a general quote and not something I feel) 'us and them'. Hollywood needs to stop doing it and audiences need to stop doing it"

Again, watch the video. We do not live in some ideal world were there was never any racism nor one where that isn't a current reality of the present. The fact of the matter is that people of color are by and large not hired for leading and/or positive roles and have what few of those possibilities there are taken away from them and given to whites. THAT is what should be sitting wrong with you.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"No, I can't see your video, I'm on an iPad at uni and the wifi blocks most video."

See it and then get back to me.

"I wasn't saying that whitewashing real people hasn't happened in movies, I said it SHOULDN'T happen in movies."

I commented on that to emphasize just how bad minority actors have it and that there is no safe zone.

"Biologically, the Saiyans are a race and Vegeta actually identifies them as such. Saying for example, 'people from Africa are a different race' is just showing a persons because that's not what that word refers to."

You are confusing the contexts of the word. Vegeta would be referring to a SPECIES, not a certain ethnic apperance. And let me guess, you're going off a dub aren't you? I highly doubt that in the original language the word used was something in reference to ethnicity.

"Light is from Death Note, I should have put his last name down so you could look it up. Death Notes such a big thing here I kinda assumed you'd know who I was referring to."

Again, different work, different artist, different rules.

"What I was trying to say in the last paragraph is that instead of whining on a board (that no one of any importance looks at anyway) about roles that actors "should have got", in a way that comes off as 'so and so should have to this role just because their Asian and Chatwin wasn't', actually spend money going to movies with talented Asian leads. That is what has an impact. Hollywood is really a numbers game."

People HAVE been doing that, and it's led to nothing substantial. Will Smith is the biggest star there is right now and they won't let him have a white love interest. Hell most of the time he doesn't have a love interest at all.

Also notice how every time a movie with a minority lead succeeds, it gets shrugged off as "a fluke" or "because it was good". And whenever one fails, it's never "because it sucked" or "bad marketing", it's always right away blamed on race. Whereas when a movie with a white lead fails, every possible excuse will be trotted out except race. And when one succeeds, they will say it's all because of race. The game is rigged from the get go.

"Look st Bruce Lee, audiences responded to his movies (this is days before the Internet) and now Lee's credited with opening the door for people like Jackie Chan and Jet Li to join the mainstream."

Ah yes, the guy who WASN'T EVEN ALLOWED TO STAR IN HIS OWN TV SHOW. Lee was one of the biggest VICTIMS of industry racism.

"The idea that Hollywood makes decisions because their PERSONALLY racist is silly. The studios will always cave and reflect to what they think the majority of audiences want. To change things, you just have to prove to them in statistics and monetary terms that the audience wants a bit of diversity in their casting."

The why of it all is irrelevant. They could be doing it in some weird butterfly effect manner to prevent nuclear apocalypse for all I care. At the same time though, all these things cannot simply be coincidences. When there's smoke, there's fire.

"Don't criticize the producers (well, don't JUST criticize the producers), raise some awareness in the audience."

Hence why I post here and linked the video.

"Actually buy movies like Ong Bak, instead of streaming them and raise demand a release for 'Journey to the West'. That's why Australia's getting a R4 English sub for 'Battle of the Gods', public demand. Hell, it was international audiences that managed to ressurect Kai."

Um, you do know that those are FOREIGN movies, right? This is about minority AMERICANS. Foreign movies succeeding does NOTHING for them. In fact the only thing it convinces Hollywood to do is produce a remake with white people.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"In re. to Bruce Lee, we're you referring to Green Hornet?"

No, Kung Fu

Here's another link to the video. See if this one works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwgNh3tKXjE

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] trstone-1 11 years ago

Goku is clearly not Asian or Asian looking at all. If that were the case he would look more like Yajirobe or General Tao, who are most definitely drawn as such.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

There's no significant differences between them. They all have the same skin, hair, and eye colors.

What about Chi Chi? Is she "clearly not Asian or Asian looking at all"?

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] trstone-1 11 years ago

Their eyes are completely different. Mercenary Tao especially, has almond shaped eyes as opposed to Goku and friends. Tao is also a bit more dark skinned than Goku, which is apparent during their battle in Dragonball. Chi-Chi may be an exception, but the only evidence that might suggest she is Asian is her wardrobe and hairstyle which is completely circumstantial anyhow. Eye color is not a factor, most of the characters, white, black or otherwise, have all black pupils, with a few exceptions.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

It's a freakin cartoon. American cartoons also distort eyes to unrealistic proportions. Homer Simpson has much bigger eyes than Mr. Burns, yet I don't see anyone thinking they're different races. Besides eye shape means nothing anyway. When someone gets surgery to change their eye shape, they do not change races. Not to mention this whole idea that "Asians are slanty eyed" is just a racist stereotype. The Japanese don't see themselves as racist caricatures. Even American works are veering away from that like Ni Hao Ki Lan. You really think she's a white girl?

And yes the eye color is a factor. The white characters of DB have lighter-colored eyes (Bulma, Android 18, etc)

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] trstone-1 11 years ago

What makes Bulma white and Goku not? Why do all the Black and Hispanic characters all have all black eyes? Are they Asian too? I think your mind is already made up regardless of how many inaccuracies are in your assumptions.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Bulma has blue eyes, light-colored hair, and a milkier skin tone. Not to mention basic cultural clues like name (her surname is BRIEFS after all).

The black and Hispanic characters are black and Hispanic. Why would you think them to be Asian if they don't have similar skin colors or names?

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

I also didn't know Bulma was white, I assumed she was the same race as all the others. I didn't assume any race on any of them either.

There seems to be one person in this thread who has clearly identified what race they think each character should be, but those of us who have a more relaxed view are supposedly the racist ones...go figure.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Watched it, still not offended. Your premise assumes that the character is Asian by default, which he isn't necessarily. To a western audience he is probably white, and as this was targeted at that market, this was never an Asian role to begin with.
This isn't like replacing Bruce Lee in a remake of the Big Boss with Jason Statham, this is far more ambiguous.

He IS Asian by default. I've already gone over how that's established. There is ZERO ambiguity whatsoever. Also the Western audience isn't as stupid or racist as you think. I'm part of that audience and I never saw him as anything but Asian, and same for anyone else with a modicum of common sense.

Not to mention the OP and some other posters were also operating under that premise.

You were struggling to maintain a valid argument but completely lost any credibility with this line:

"Taking away one of the scant few oppurtunities that they have and giving it to a race that is already overly privileged is inherantly racist."

Spelling errors aside, you just took one massive leap from something being unfair or a form of injustice to being some sort of deliberate hateful attack. If you want anyone to take you seriously you really need to make sure your arguments aren't bordering on extremist.

You must have missed where I also said:

"The why of it all is irrelevant. They could be doing it in some weird butterfly effect manner to prevent nuclear apocalypse for all I care."

So it makes no difference at all if it's deliberate or not. Because the end result is still the same.

I also didn't know Bulma was white, I assumed she was the same race as all the others. I didn't assume any race on any of them either.

There seems to be one person in this thread who has clearly identified what race they think each character should be, but those of us who have a more relaxed view are supposedly the racist ones...go figure.

Yes, it's called colorblind racism. Look it up.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

I'm part of that audience and I never saw him as anything but Asian, and same for anyone else with a modicum of common sense.

Let me guess, you've got an Asian heritage, right? And the mere fact that you implied anyone who doesn't identify a piece of art the same way as you do negates that entire point, so I'll bypass it entirely on the grounds that its outright stupid.

You must have missed where I also said:

Oh I wish I did. I think we all do.

So it makes no difference at all if it's deliberate or not. Because the end result is still the same.

So your point is what? This doesn't relate to what you quoted at all.

Yes, it's called colorblind racism. Look it up.

Thanks for a completely unrelated reference to perceptions of individual racial identity in society. This doesn't apply to the perception of race in art. If you've honestly made the link here between those two you're just a lost cause. Please let me know, it will help determine the way I respond to you. For instance, if you say "yes, I believe this relates well" I'll proceed to give up rational discussion and respond in gibberish - assuming you may actually comprehend the point for once.

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[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Let me guess, you've got an Asian heritage, right? And the mere fact that you implied anyone who doesn't identify a piece of art the same way as you do negates that entire point, so I'll bypass it entirely on the grounds that its outright stupid.

No I do not. I'm just not a complete idiot.

Oh I wish I did. I think we all do.

I wish I missed this gem.

So your point is what? This doesn't relate to what you quoted at all.

It has every relevance. You said that I said this is some "deliberate hateful attack", when I clearly said it doesn't make any difference what their intentions were.

Thanks for a completely unrelated reference to perceptions of individual racial identity in society. This doesn't apply to the perception of race in art. If you've honestly made the link here between those two you're just a lost cause. Please let me know, it will help determine the way I respond to you. For instance, if you say "yes, I believe this relates well" I'll proceed to give up rational discussion and respond in gibberish - assuming you may actually comprehend the point for once.

Yes it does. You suggested that your "relaxed view" of race puts you in the right. It doesn't.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Very original assclown.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

"Their eyes are completely different. Mercenary Tao especially, has almond shaped eyes as opposed to Goku and friends. Tao is also a bit more dark skinned than Goku, which is apparent during their battle in Dragonball. Chi-Chi may be an exception, but the only evidence that might suggest she is Asian is her wardrobe and hairstyle which is completely circumstantial anyhow. Eye color is not a factor, most of the characters, white, black or otherwise, have all black pupils, with a few exceptions."

right cracker i am sure they mean to make a white character and dress her up like a asian woman and call her chi chi. quit living in dream land you racist basterd.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

"Goku is clearly not Asian or Asian looking at all. If that were the case he would look more like Yajirobe or General Tao, who are most definitely drawn as such. "

they draw goku like they draw chi chi and yamcha and they are clearly asian you numb skull cracker.

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[–] TheCommenteer 11 years ago

You were struggling to maintain a valid argument but completely lost any credibility with this line:

"Taking away one of the scant few oppurtunities that they have and giving it to a race that is already overly privileged is inherantly racist."

Spelling errors aside, you just took one massive leap from something being unfair or a form of injustice to being some sort of deliberate hateful attack. If you want anyone to take you seriously you really need to make sure your arguments aren't bordering on extremist.

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[–] lee_rock 11 years ago

"all i'm wondering is why is everyone up in arms about goku's race when there are just soooooo many more things wrong like the ones i stated plus more"

i am so tire of this argument from racist white ppl as if to try to derail all the race talk by pretending there is bigger problem about the movie. it is quite simple cracker-a race change is a sign of a lack of respect for the source material. if they dont respect dragonball enough to keep goku asian, then you cannot expect them to respect every thing else about dragonball. the fact that you care more about those little detail and not about race mean you are racist.

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[–] Matt272 10 years ago

I just wish this movie didn't suck Donkey testicles.

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[–] kez5 10 years ago

just goes to show how racist hollywood is, that they have to get white guys to play Asian characters. oh wait, it's not "pc" to say that.

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[–] MydnightRose 10 years ago

I never thought Goku was Asian, thre are a lot of characters in anime that look like exchange students from Europe.

Clark Kent + Lois Lane 4ever
DC Can Suck It

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[–] lee_rock 10 years ago

no cracker i think the real problem is your delusion to think that a show that have asian culture all over the place will only leave out the ppl as not being asian. use your head cracker.

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[–] WorldWar1000 10 years ago

Lee rock, I'm a black male and you are seriously embarrassing my race right now. please shut the hell up. thank you.

{._.}
My eyes are watching you

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[–] kez5 10 years ago

you never thought he was asian because he's always presented as a white guy in the racist hollywood

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[–] eduardohds 10 years ago

Goku is not Asian, he's a Sayan.

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[–] lee_rock 10 years ago

dont you cracker get tire of recycling the same nonsense over and over again? saying it a lot will not make it true cracker.

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[–] joao-pebre 10 years ago

Except it is true.

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[–] Nelfarion 10 years ago

Indeed. Goku is not even a native of the planet in question (which I don't think is "Earth", as in this planet, but some other-universe version of it, that has ALL KINDS of people, including giraffe people and the like - and you idiots are arguing over casting Asians? What about the non-ape-descended people?)

Goku is a Saiyan, native to (born on) Planet Vegeta, sent to the Dragon Planet to eradicate all life-forms on it, like a Dalek from Skaro.

Just thank the gods that circumstance wound Goku up on the "good guy" side.

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[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] keeperspencer 10 years ago

Woohooo for goku bumping his head and being raised by gohan!!!!!

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[–] WorldWar1000 10 years ago

honestly, goku looks white to me despite the black hair but saying he's an alien does nothing for your argument. saiyans don't exist, saiyans in the DBZ universe look 100% human. talking about their tails being a racial trait is stupid as hell. seriously just stop, using that stupid argument turns the whole debate into a joke.

{._.}
My eyes are watching you

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[–] JohnBonDon 10 years ago

honestly, goku looks white to me

Because you don't understand manga and anime art.

Son Goku is drawn specifically as an Asian.

Whites in manga and anime are drawn differently from Asians. You don't realize this because you don't know what you are looking at.

but saying he's an alien does nothing for your argument. saiyans don't exist, saiyans in the DBZ universe look 100% human

You are completely correct here.

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[–] WorldWar1000 10 years ago

And what exactly is that? Details please other than the black hair.

{._.}
My eyes are watching you

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[–] JohnBonDon 10 years ago

White males characters in manga/anime are usually drawn with bigger and/or longer noses than Asian characters as well as different face shapes (usually more squarish and/or narrower and even noticeable high cheek bones), more prominent chins, and many times even different eye shapes (usually more narrower).

Here are

Son Goku: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090420221448/dragonball/de/ima ges/f/f8/Son_Goku.jpg

Vegeta: http://www.oocities.org/vegetta49a/DBZVegetta/Vegetta21.jpg

Tenshinhan: http://cf.imados.fr/1/bd-manga/dragon-ball/photo/7875309787/1658040ea4 /dragon-ball-tenshinhan-img.jpg

and Yamucha: http://obdpictures1.wikispaces.com/file/view/Yamuucha.png/265049040/Ya muucha.png

None of these characters are related but they are all drawn with very similar facial features.

Now compare them with Nappa: http://images.wikia.com/dragonball/images/a/a5/Nappa.Ep.11.DBZKai.png

Notice how different the facial features are. Nappa has a noticeably longer and more prominent nose, high cheek bones and a much bigger jaw.

Son Goku, Vegeta, Tenshinhan and Yamucha are meant to be Asian characters and thus are drawn the way they are while Nappa is drawn as a white character.

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[–] Evaporatedcanejuice 10 years ago

All Saiyans including Nappa are meant to resemble Asians. Nappa actually looks Mongol/Central Asian.

These are the Caucasian characters:

Bulma and family
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120227141742/dragonball/images/6/ 6c/BriefFamily.png

Android 16-18
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/28400000/16-17-18-androids-17-1 8-21-and-16-28404650-500-281.jpg

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[–] JohnBonDon 10 years ago

All Saiyans including Nappa are meant to resemble Asians. Nappa actually looks Mongol/Central Asian.

If that were the case, then he would be similarly drawn to the other Asian characters as I have just shown but he isn't. All Saiyans don't look the same as can be seen here:

http://www.republicofnewhome.org/oldlair/gallery/saiyans/saiyans_tn.jp g

Those characters are drawn nothing like Son Goku, Vegeta and Raditz. They are not Saiyans that are meant to look Asian. This actually fits with the multicultural theme that Toriyama Akira infused in Dragon Ball.

Also, you proved my point by posting the picture of Android 16. You see that facially he is drawn similarly to Nappa. Both have high cheek bones, both noses are longer and more prominent and their chins are bigger than characters like Son Goku, Vegeta and Raditz.

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[–] Evaporatedcanejuice 10 years ago

I don't think facial shapes denote race. Eye shape/color and hair color are better indicators. Androids 17 and 18 and Bulma have the exact same facial shapes (small nose and chin) as Goku and yet they're clearly White.

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[–] JohnBonDon 10 years ago

I don't think facial shapes denote race.

Yes, they do. It actually reflects real life. Asians don't usually have long noses as regularly seen on white people. They rarely have high cheek bones and their face shapes are usually more rounder. Their jaw lines and chins are also usually smaller than their white counterparts as well.

You can see this reflected with other Japanese artists when they draw Asians and whites.

Eye shape/color and hair color are better indicators

I agree about the eye shape but not about the color especially since sometimes characters in anime will have eye colors that no one will have naturally like purple or something. It really depends on the artist and what they do but what is consistent are the facial characteristics.

Androids 17 and 18 and Bulma have the exact same facial shapes (small nose and chin) as Goku and yet they're clearly White.

Except that Androids 17's and 18's eyes are a different shape which actually goes with what I said before:

and many times even different eye shapes (usually more narrower).

Women rarely are shown with these facial differences. Many times I have seen females characters in manga and anime drawn with very similar facial characteristics regardless of their race. Just look at some black female characters in manga and anime and you'll see that most of the time even their facial features are drawn very similarly to what Asian female characters are given.

Another thing I have noticed is that when a white male character is supposed to be a pretty boy of sorts, they will sometimes make his features very similar to the Asian characters. So his nose will be smaller, the face more oval, etc... which is ironic since that goes against the common error some people in the West make thinking that the Asian characters are drawn as white.

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[–] WorldWar1000 10 years ago

bump

{._.}
My eyes are watching you

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[–] JohnBonDon 10 years ago

Indeed. Goku is not even a native of the planet in question

So what?

Neither is Superman. Yet only white actors can play Superman.

So why can't Asians be Son Goku?

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[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] JohnBonDon 10 years ago

There's nothing to make of that except exactly what you wrote. To make it seem more "alien" to a Japanese audience in terms of the culture of the Saiyans. That has nothing to do with the fact that the character of Son Goku is meant to be an Asian character. Specifically, an alien that happens to look just like Asians on Earth no different to how Superman looks just like white people on Earth.

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[–] manchof1 10 years ago

It doesn't really matter too much to me what race Goku is supposed to look like as long as his Saiyan race is consistent, in the DBZ fan trailer they had an Asian playing Vegeta and a white guy playing Nappa which made no sense.

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[–] JohnBonDon 10 years ago

Why doesn't make any sense? It actually matches the original intent. All of the Saiyans are not drawn as Asian. Vegeta and Son Goku are drawn as Asian characters but Nappa is drawn as a white looking character.

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[–] manchof1 10 years ago

It doesn't make any sense because they are a singular alien race, so either cast all Asians or whites as the Saiyans.

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[–] JohnBonDon 10 years ago

It doesn't make any sense because they are a singular alien race

They are a singular race just like how humans are a singular race. Within them are people that do look different.

If you read the comic or watched the show you would see that not all Saiyans are drawn the same way. I already said this in my last reply to you. I don't know why you chose to ignore it.

Vegeta, Son Goku and Raditz are drawn as Asians while Nappa is drawn as a white character.

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[–] manchof1 10 years ago

How do you know that Nappa is drawn to be a white character? Just because he's big, tall, and bald that makes him a white looking character?

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[–] JohnBonDon 10 years ago

Because Nappa's facial features are very different from that of Son Goku's, Vegeta's and Raditz's. They are the facial features typically given to white characters by Japanese manga and anime artists.

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[–] manchof1 10 years ago

Not really.

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[–] JohnBonDon 10 years ago

Yes, really. You don't understand manga and anime art.

Look at the faces of Son Goku, Vegeta, Raditz, Yamucha, Tenshinhan and compare them with Nappa's face. Nappa's nose, face shape and chin are totally different from the other characters' faces I mentioned. Son Goku, Vegeta, Raditz, Yamucha and Tenshinhan have very similar noses, face shapes and chins. That's because they are meant to be Asian characters. Nappa's face is drawn the way it is because he is meant to be a white character.

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[–] manchof1 10 years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37OWL7AzvHo

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[–] JohnBonDon 10 years ago

You're not making any argument here. Instead of doing the equivalent of what a child does which is plugging their ears and yelling "No, cause I said no" how about you actually make an argument about why you claim I am wrong?

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[–] KaZenPhi 9 years ago

Dragonball is a japanese adaption of a chinese novel, they already changed the race of the characters, so I don't have a real problem with Goku being white. I have a problem with the movie being absurdly bad and power rangers-esque. Dragonball wasn't art to begin with but holy smokes was it bad.

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[–] JohnBonDon 8 years ago

Dragonball is a japanese adaption of a chinese novel, they already changed the race of the characters

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

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