Why did he sell out the IRA?
Am I the only one who had problems with his motivation?
It seems like he rat out to the Brits because IRA guy shot out his friend's legs. Maybe it's motivation to seek revenge against that one individual. But I don't see becoming an agent for the Brits.
You may well be. The IRA are no better than Al-Qaeda or any terrorist group for that matter. The minute they started to bomb innocent people is the point of no return. What the effing hell have people shopping in Manchester got to do with the Troubles in Ireland...fook all, thats what! And they bombed their own people. This sympathy that many people have for the IRA I can’t understand. And I will say this, alot of them are these daft yanks who say they’re ‘Irish’ because somewhere along the line one of their ancestors came from there. Fook off, you’re not Irish, you’re American. If the IRA bombed the USA you’d declare war on the twats, but because you have this deluded idea that you’re Irish, and that the British are some evil army sent to oppress them, you support them. Aye, the IRA are alright, they only blew up a couple of Brits. Hang the fookers is what I say. Skin them alive in front of the families of the victims. They say there at war?!? I say that they’re a bunch of bomb chucking bell ends.
So yes, I do see the motivation to ‘become an agent of the Brits’. Because they’re a terrorist group.
That's a great explanation of why YOU would do it. But it doesn't explain it for him. I kinda remember he said to the effect 'They're all the same'. All I'm saying is the movie seems to be missing something. One minute he's a two bit punk who's scraping by (not caring anything about politics), and the next he's diving right in. The only thing in the middle was his friend getting shot.
shareI'm from NI and I remember a lot of these incidents/murders happening. I also lived in Belfast in the early 70's and the story line is fairly on the mark. I could believe how he got disillusioned with the wanton violence, what it didn't tell you at the end, is his family came over to England to join him.
shareI think his family ended up back in Northern Ireland as they could not settle on Tyneside
Not 100% but I think that was the case
Well done. Couldnt of Said that better myself!
shareErrr no. He didn't sell out the IRA because he was recruited as an informer well before he joined.
He "ratted out" to the Brits as you put it because yes, his friend was shot in the legs. No it wasn't a revenge mission on that one guy.
It was because the IRA's brutal policing of their areas was shown clearly to him and it pretty much prevented him from being endeared to them as he otherwise would have been.
"It was because the IRA's brutal policing of their areas was shown clearly to him and it pretty much prevented him from being endeared to them as he otherwise would have been."
So your opinion is that he did it based on principals?? I have to say I did not get this from the movie. If anything, he's not the type to do ANYTHING based on principals. His basic principal seemed to be hussling for dollars. Nothing wrong with that. But talk of political motivations seems over-reaching. That's why revenge motivation seems more realistic. Maybe it evolved with a hint of self preservation sprinkled in.
No, I don't believe he did it on principles at the time. As you remember, Fergus tried to talk him round to it but wasn't interested. However, it was the incident of the kneecapping that prevented him from fully supporting the IRA (as he would have likely done otherwise as most of their recruits were working class Catholic men who were involved in small crime).
It was simply a case of money as you said and the fact that he disliked the IRA.
I really don't see this as a revenge movie at all. If it was then there would have been a lot of focus on Ray (the guy who shot his friend in the knees).
It was simply a case of money as you said and the fact that he disliked the IRA.
I'm ok with a money motive if there was a bit more money. I forget what he got. I think a beat up car. That's not much.
The fact that he disliked the IRA (shooting his friend's knees being a large part) does not necessarily mean he liked the brits that much more.
I also think he was threatened with prison which would make a lot of sense, but I don't know if that was emphasized. It's been awhile since I saw it.
He got a car but a car's a car, its not exactly the kind of thing he could afford at the time. No he wasn't a huge fan of the Brits - particularly at the start - but thought that the IRA were worse and the prospect of saving the lives of people began to ring true with him.
Yeah he was threatened with prison at the beginning but that was when he was first arrested and was more or less unperturbed about it.
He got a car but a car's a car,
I don't remember what it was but I think it was a beater. Again not really a big payoff for the risk he takes on.
No he wasn't a huge fan of the Brits - particularly at the start - but thought that the IRA were worse and the prospect of saving the lives of people began to ring true with him.
First, the start is the important part. Why did he start?
Then as the movie goes on, I don't see him taking sides as much as surviving and saving his mates. Nearer the end, maybe I get to that point where he's taking sides.
Yeah he was threatened with prison at the beginning but that was when he was first arrested and was more or less unperturbed about it.
That's my perception too. Which takes it somewhat out of the running... unless it was all empty Bravado (unlikely).
'You don't have the murder in you', said the handler. And I remember he tripped off the moment the IRA explosives expert put that bomb in the van. Tried to call 'Fergus', almost got caught and forgot about it. Later on, he saw the aftermath of his doing (he was an accessory to murder, actually), when the van was blown. I guess that was the final bit in a long string that leads to his first informant act.
shareSPOILER ALERT!
Well being an unemployed Catholic with little in the way of job opportunities other than petty crime, a car would be a pretty valuable commodity for him.
Yeah you're pretty much there on that point, he does want to save his mates (hence why he rages at Fergus after a friend of his is shot by British undercover agents) and survive.
Yeah I think you're right. He didn't have a lot to loose so bravado isn't really on his agenda.
minimusdecimus, you have a point there. There's also the part when he briefly talks to the family of a man he saved at a burger van so he does gain principles over time as part of his character development.
For the record, I haven't read the book so I'm afraid I don't know the events described there.
Motivation is a pet peeve of mine about movies.
Sometimes it just doesn't make sense.
In this one, I think it just wasn't done well.
If money was the motivation, he should be DEMANDING to be paid.
If avoiding jail was the motivation, he should be SCARED.
If revenge was the motivation, he should be building a plan to exact it.
If it was based on morality, he should approach the brits on his own.
I get it that the Real life motivations were muddy, complex and changing. But each motivation must be set up properly. And each change must be delinearated and change explained. In many ways, that's where the story gets interesting. That usually seperates a good movie from a great movie.
I think they were trying to set up that his motivation is something that changes and develops over the time of the movie. It kind of started out as him just making the best of a bad situation and morality developed over time.
We can agree to disagree but I personally prefer a character to have their motivations develop and be questioned as the movie progresses.
Another thing to consider.
This is a Real Guy.
So if his motivation is weasaly, he wouldn't own up to it.
I imagine his story is half spin, half real.
I love conflicted motivation, but not convoluted.
In this, I wouldn't even say it's either.
I think it's more muddy than it's murky.
It's a mystery. Not just to me, but probably with the writer as well.
So you recon that it wasn't very well written?
I also hear that the book is very different as well in certain ways...
Yeah, it needed a few more rewrites with an eye on what's driving the guy.
Sometimes movies made from books get lost from "How much to keep/What to Drop" conflict. Maybe better to lose the based on true story tag.
Although not bad... just could be better.
(SPOILER ALERT)
I kind of get your meaning.
Movies made from books always change things in order to make the story flow better but sometimes they're changed for stupid executive marketing decisions.
The only things I'm aware that were definitely changes to the story are 1. The Canada opening and closing scenes as McGartland fled to the North East of England and 2. He had been working for the police for a long time before actually joining the Provisional IRA.
I tell you something though, it was a hell of a lot better than "The Devil's Own"!
He didn't like The IRA, and there were no love lost for the Brits...He may have been thinking My enemies enemy is my friend
The Brits in this case were probably the lesser of two evils
I think in the beginning he was just a punk kid who was too smart for his own good. The fact that he did NOT have strong loyalties to the IRA was what attracted the Brits to him in the first place. They used a few different techniques to get him to join, but he resisted.
His first motivation is money. They gave him a car. Of course to us it seems like a crappy car, but in Belfast in the 80's, that was probably a fairly nice vehicle, especially to someone who probably was a long way away from ever owning his own car. He probably also feels smart because he's pulling one over on the IRA.
As the movie evolves, you see him grow and change. He sees the IRA torturing and blowing up people and he decides to "save lives" in exchange for some money. I think he also develops a strong bond with his handler Fergus, who provides him with a father figure that he's probably been lacking.
Eventually, he falls in love and has a child of his own. Speaking from experience, this is something that can dramatically change your perspective on many things in life. He probably wants to get out altogether, but as they told him when he pledged his allegiance to them, once you're in, there's no getting out.
The most touching bit (whether you agree with what he did or not) is that he traded his life for the lives of his family. He'll be hunted as long as he's living because as you might have picked up on some of the other posts on this board, the IRA has a long memory.
Exactly, I thought he was vaguely sympathetic but I was surprised when they called him a "hero" at the end. I thought he was just looking for a father figure and a free car.
shareThe English paid better. All this stuff about "saving lives" is BS. All he talked about with his handler in reality was the price of each piece of information. He was selling panties door to door and couldn't get a girlfriend, so you can't blame him that much. But he also earned his death.
shareWhat death? According to the words at the end of the movie he survived the shooting and was still alive but always on the move from safe house to safe house.
Some fellows get credit for being conservative when they are only stupid.
- Kin Hubbard
One word on the car: It was a pretty nice car to have in those days for someone like him. Yes, it looks pretty cr*ppy now but, at the time, that was a sweet deal.
Is saving 50 lives not motivation enough.
He never sold out the IRA and he was not a tout, to suggest he is such is a lie, to sell out and be a tout you have to agree with the cause and believe in it, Martin, as far I am aware never did believe in or support the IRA, he despised there punishment squads and brutality...
Just listen to something Fergus says in the movie, something like 'Men will walk around and become grandfathers because you saved them'
Before anyone questions Martins so called treachery, just remember the 50 dead men walking
the IRA are sex offenders
Gerry Adams brother Liam is a pedophile, he abused children including his own daughter
Paudie McGahon was sexually abused by the IRA
he was threatened if you tell anyone about this they'll find your body at the side of the road
Mairia Cahill was sexually abused by an IRA member
Before the abuse started he went out of his way to show her he has access to guns, he thought he could scare her into silence
the political party Sinn Fein denied and deflected this part of IRA history until it couldn't be done any longer
They have gone down that Vatican road
Please see through the IRA and Sinn Fein
They are not heroes they are abuse enablers
I had a problem with him as well. If my country was colonized and my people are being oppressed and there's this group doing acts I don't approve of, I wouldn't get involved in or with either. I find it hard to empathize with him as I can't relate with the character at all.
share