Hopefully, after Hollywood's positive portrayal of IRA men with the likes of pretty boys Brad Pitt and Richard Gere, we will see the IRA realistically shown as murdering scroats.
sharehopefully...
''He's a Machine'' - Tank
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What about the murdering psychopaths of the British army who murdered men women and children. Not to mention the 800 years of mass murder, slavery, starvation, imprisonment and oppression. No one wants to talk about that. Thats what created the IRA, yeah they are murdering scum driven to it by other murdering scum.
shareThe simple fact is they want to "free" a population which overwhelmingly wants to stay as they are. Hence they are terrorists, and can only be dealt with one way, their way of choice.
share"The simple fact is they want to "free" a population which overwhelmingly wants to stay as they are"
overwhelmingly?
The split is roughly 55% to 45% ,or maybe 60-40 at best,which is why it has caused such grief as britain has only recently learned you can't ignore nearly half the population of a country without suffering consequeces.
"The simple fact is they want to "free" a population which overwhelmingly wants to stay as they are. Hence they are terrorists, and can only be dealt with one way, their way of choice".
That's a completely moot and artificial point.... The British Govt in the 20s basically split the country in two, making two countries out of one, and continuing the typical imperialist/colonialist trick of "divide and conquer", a similar policy of 'divide and rule' and setting people against one another led to the partitioning of India and Pakistan also.... The fact that Protestants make up a "majority" in the North is a completely manipulated political construct designed to benefit the British state and no one else, certainly NOT the Irish people, who, when actually taken as an actual WHOLE, want the country to be reunited and decide its own political destiny as a free and unified state.... The division of South and North Ireland is as disgusting a political travesty as East and West Germany..... "Choice" has very, very little to do with it, it was the will of Lloyd George and his political machinations and nothing else....
For you to come away with such a blindly ignorant point shows that you have not even a rudimentary grasp of the historical or political reality of Ireland. Yes, the IRA did some bad things in the 70s and 80s, but nothing like as bad as the horrors the British state committed upon Ireland throughout its history.... And those acts of terror and oppression by the UK continued up until very recently.....
So blowing up bus loads of school children, sending letter bombs, murdering innocent children, mothers, fathers, sons and daughters is justified?
They made IAD's, common place, ever hear of those?
I guess 911 was justified as well?
'The British Govt in the 20s basically split the country in two'
If you knew your history rather than just listening to IRA lies, you would in fact know that it was leader of the IRA Michael Collins who was responsible for negotiating partiton and the IRISH PEOPLE voted for it, that why Ireland was divided you idiot. You have just shown everyone the hypocrisy and pure fantasy of the IRA's spin on what really happened in Irish history. Lets all laugh at you
I think you will find that the british governemnt went back on its word and Michael Collins thought that half of ireland being free from british rule was better then none of it!
shareI'm an American, and have never been overseas. I just wanted to quickly comment on how sad this whole thing is! also east and west Germany as GrimlyFiendish so eloquently stated.
Really crap like this is still happening in different regions all over the world! it leaves me totally bewildered! How can the "Oppressors", and the "Powers that be" Care So little about the welfare of others?
I really do see signs of humans evolving beyond this petty stuff. I see it in pretty much EVERYONE I meet! So, as long as the Old Money Hoarders don't ruin the Earth first... Hopefully just a couple more generations left of dumb-dumbs... hopefully!
we mainly need people that are willing to totally forget the past, and all the wrong doings of un-evolved people, and move forward, together, doing the right thing. Deep down we all know right from wrong, inherently (unless suffering some sort of psychosis)
so heres to Peace and the future.
Was just reading through this thread, having seeing the film, and I was pleasantly surprised to find your post GrimlyFiendish. It is a refreshing change from the usual pro-IRA vs. pro-British (sometimes pro-BNP/Unionist) arguments that often appear in these threads.
I would not equate British atrocities prior to 1916-20 with the PIRA's actions from the 1970s onward - I see British abuses of Ireland as a mixture of mismanagement, ignorance, greed and good-natured racism (or simple supremacist bigotry in many cases). Cumulatively, it may outweigh the actions/reaction of the Irish or the IRA -- Yet, I do not feel that what the PIRA actually did was justified by this fact. I think there had to be a better way. I think there is a better way.
However, I do see your point with regard to the insidious nature of partition in its conception and execution. I agree that the intrinsic problem of partition was not only born from a disregard for Irish realities but was also a deliberate British methodology designed to engineer a beneficial outcome for Empire. Regardless, the ultimate result of such a contrived and biased solution to the Irish question, had to be violence of one kind or another --- in Northern Ireland it proved to be both - Republican discontent and Unionist fear.
Contrary to the dubious and seemingly authoritative contradiction that stote21-1 poses to your argument, you are actually right (in my opinion, at least) and have a firmer grasp on the relevant history than stote21-1 claims to have.
The Government of Ireland Act 1920, which created the state of Northern Ireland, was in essence quite undemocratic (it was never ratified by an all-Ireland plebescite or voted on after the 1918 General election) and it was passed into law without consultation of the Irish people by a majority vote in British parliament (November 1920) in the absence of the Irish MPs. Moreover, the terms of the act were decided in 1914 when Royal assent (not Irish assent) was given to the idea of partition by excluding Ulster from the original Home Rule act. That is a lot of boring detail, and no doubt an annoyance, but remains relevant to the fact that Collins had no option in negotiating the Treaty - partition was a predetermined and deliberately contrived outcome that Collins (or anyone else for that matter) would have had to accept as a fait-accompli. If someone can decide what exactly people can actually vote for they can prevent them from voting for the very thing that they might actually want.
Hence, the apparent paranoia of the Irish rebels/teroorists/people. And their patent disregard for British/Unionist invocations of democratic process. Democracy for all or merely democracy for a select group? Is that really democracy?
Add to that, the deliberate (and in many ways, carefully considered) farces of the Collins-Craig pact and the pre-emptively defunct Boundary Commission, and partition seems less like a democratic and just solution to a serious issue but rather a contrived effort to engender and protect unjustifiable privilege.
Thankfully, this is all generally irrelevant since 1998. However, it is something that we should all consider before making assumptions based on the past 30 years of post-Imperial apologetics that is being prostituted as history. Such history is little more than propaganda dressed as sophisticated discourse.
We do tend to reap what we sow, after all. Perhaps we should laugh at ourselves and our presumptions, rather than assuming that we can dispense with certain difficult truths in favour of more palatable ones by encouraging others to laugh at those who dissent.
Again, fair dues to you GrimlyFiendish for reminding people of certain facts in the midst of their masturbatory fantasies of martyrdom. There is no rational defence for the PIRA - they were individually and collectively responsible for excessive violence - and never really justified in these same acts. But it had to originate in something - and that is a fair point to make even if it encourages the ubiquitous barrage of bully-boy retorts and the inevitable moralisation on violence (state sponsored violence being wholly justified or ignored in most such replies).
Never a truer word said
share"What about the murdering psychopaths of the British army who murdered men women and children. Not to mention the 800 years of mass murder, slavery, starvation, imprisonment and oppression. No one wants to talk about that. Thats what created the IRA, yeah they are murdering scum driven to it by other murdering scum."
by - jjoecostello1985 on Sat Sep 27 2008 10:20:42
I doubt the British Army can be described as murdering psychopaths but they were guilty of what could be construed as war crimes. Bloody Sunday an example and numerous acts of what can only be described as torture. But compared to the gentlemen of the IRA our lads were a picture of restraint.
The events of the past were indeed shocking and we Brits were very harsh to the Irish but the population in 1960s onwards were not responsible for any of these events and if you think that Historical events that had nothing at all to do with the modern times we all lived in back then justified the murder of children as young as a few months then I feel sorry for you as your perspective must be a rather sad one.
I missed an IRA bomb in Victoria station because I got transfered to another part of London a few days before it went of. I would have been within yards of the explosion otherwise. I have no animosity at all to Irish people and have had friends from North and South since 1973. Some of the nicest people I have met in my life were Irish. Living in some kind of rose tinted past with us Britsa s villains cost the lives of thousands for a cause that was worth not one life. Unborn children, men, women and little kids died at the hands of evil men who after the inevitable compromise that had to come abandoned thier political cause and became gangsters preying upon those they pretended to protect.
Scum is a word that barely describes these people.
The US has held them up as heroic for decades but those of us who lived through the nightmare know them better for what they are.
You are correct, ALL parties engaged in senseless acts of violence starting with the British genocide and displacement of the native Irish in 1608. Between 1969-2001, 3,526 people were killed as a result of the Troubles. Approximately 60% of the dead were killed by republicans, 30% by loyalists and 10% by British security forces.
shareWrong. There's a difference between the old IRA, and the IRA that exists today. The old IRA fought back against the british when they were truly a threat. But then in the past 30 years, the IRA has been nothing but a bunch of murderers. It's why they lost a lot of their support. Want an example? Omagh.
sharethe IRA are sex offenders
Gerry Adams brother Liam is a pedophile, he abused children including his own daughter
Paudie McGahon was sexually abused by the IRA
he was threatened if you tell anyone about this they'll find your body at the side of the road
Mairia Cahill was sexually abused by an IRA member
Before the abuse started he went out of his way to show her he has access to guns, he thought he could scare her into silence
the political party Sinn Fein denied and deflected this part of IRA history until it couldn't be done any longer
They have gone down that Vatican road
Please see through the IRA and Sinn Fein
They are not heroes they are abuse enablers
>>"Most Americans will digest these movies as a true transcription of reality because god knows reading a book on the subject just seems like too much work. "
Its crap like your comments that start conflicts.
I guess all or "most" Americans are just fat, lazy stuipd idiots right?
You are as ignorant as you think "most Americans" are by assuming all books tell the truth.
Try to keep it in mind that no matter what side you are on, there is always the other perspective. I say believing anything you read in a book or a movie is ignorance to the highest degree.
Americans do not corner the market on gulibility as you have just proven.
There is not always "the other perspective". The facts get in the way. There is no difference in NA than if a group of American nut jobs started murdering Canadians to force Ontario to join the US. What would the nut jobs "perspective" be???
shareof course there is always the other perspective. for example why do people bend over backwards to defend the british empire. why do they justify killing innocent people in order to protect a psychopatic torturer and murderer like Freddie Scappaticci - who i presume the character meeting the special branch agent after
Martin escapes is based on.
to give an even more recent example, British soliders serving in Iraq according to the british right-wing press perspective are heroes yet to others the facts are they were complict in an illegal invasion which resulted in the deaths of at least 60,000 people by conservative estimates. i suspect you let your own perspective get in the way of the facts when it suits.
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Agreed. I was a kid in 1970 and visiting my grandparents w/my dad and sister. They IRA bombed constantly, every night we were there. They killed anyone who got in there way and showed no mercy. And, then when things got better, economically, things eased slightly as they were forced into more of a Mafia-type structure. They were essentially, almost put of business for good about five years ago w/the South joining the EU, and super strong economics for the North, meaning a great standard of living for all stopped everyone from focusing on the past to a small degree, religion, and friendships, marriages, partnerships developing and thriving between Protestants and Catholics. However, w/the economy suffering the IRA is making a come back because they thrive on dissension, driving a wedge between peace and their role as making society dance to their tune. They are the lowest dregs of society because it's not even, anymore about their hatred of the Brits. It's about how they can keep money flowing into their diminished camp and ensure they profit from bloodshed. Disgusting.
shareThe IRA embraced the peace process. It's not the IRA that's been doing all the bombings and shootings of late, it's just some hoods who wish they were the IRA. You don't need to worry about them too much. Too much has changed for the better, for the dissidents' campaign to get off the ground the same way Provos' campaign did.
Keep the change, ya filthy animal...
I question how the IRA embraced the peace process, but that's probably left for a different kind of conversation. Unfortunately, the Robinson's problems and McGuinness' discord w/Mr. Robinson isn't helping things and the bombings whether by wanna be's or not I'm hoping don't disrupt the whole thing. Frankly, besides the questionable loans, not really that up in arms about her affair with a 19-year old. Personal affairs are not as serious as Reg Elmpy implies, meaning they directly would impact Mr. Robinson's ability to effectively perform, but this is getting into social and private ethics and morals which I'm not that judgmental about. Anyway, I am hopeful it all gets smoothed out and everyone gets along and I can go back again in Spring and find Belfast the best city in the world again. Cheers!
shareoh my god, someone slabbered about my nation being a bunch of fat retards, i must reply in anger.... f(_)ck right off mate
''He's a Machine'' - Tank
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Leave us "fat, lazy, stuipid idiots" alone...
There's a difference between people knowing how to party, ie, "everyone's irish on St. Patrick's day" and confusing historical events. I'm Irish-American and I don't wear green on St. Patrick's day as I am of Irish decent every day. My dad used to sing me a song about them "hanging all the Irish, for the wearing of the green".
Let's get historical for a few moments. Most Irish people in the US and Canada got here one of two ways. 1. Of their own free will. 2. On 'Coffin ships' when they were forced out of Ireland by the 'owners' of the land they were on.
For those who don't know what a coffin ship is, think 'slave ship'. So while many americans might be ignorant of some of these facts, Irish-American Catholics are the LEAST LIKELY to be ignorant of the facts.
I've also never given a dime to the IRA. The simple fact is the IRA was born in Ireland and its ignition point was a woman's march for rights and jobs that the police and Army decided needed to be broken up and fired into the crowd.
Its called Bloody Sunday. U2 wrote one of their songs about it. Without a rallying point the IRA was reduced to historical insignificance.
Make no mistake, Ireland was stolen from its people, and the Catholic population in Northern Ireland was being treated like second class citizens or worse. That's a point thats going to resonate a bit with the decendants of the people kicked out of their own country.
But they were still terrorists. And if you call me an ignorant American and insult the rest of my countrymen here you can kiss my ignorant Irish-American a**. Its time you quit believing the 'press' on Americans. America has its problems, and America will solve its problems without any help from Spoiled Brat Euro-trash. I'm tired of the 'moral superiority' bullsh** I read here. Most of the problems in this world are directly tied to the stupid 'colonization' efforts of England, Spain, France, and Portugal through out the world. It got hot after a while and the countries booked leaving a huge human rights mess everywhere. Thanks for that Europe.
wfflan - youf 'facts' are flawed.
'The simple fact is the IRA was born in Ireland and its ignition point was a woman's march for rights and jobs that the police and Army decided needed to be broken up and fired into the crowd.'
The IRA were present during the 1916 rising, the civil war and right up until the modern day. The 'woman's march', wasn't a woman's march, but was a march were Catholic men and women took to the streets to demand civil rights. The civil rights marches began in 1968 and Bloody Sunday was in 1972, so your timing is also way off.
But good knowledge for an American.
Not quite true my friend.
The IRA has it's roots in the Irish Republican Brotherhood an organisation committed to the return of Ireland back into the hands of the Irish. Irish republicanism really goes back to Wolfe Tone and oddly enough wasn't an exclusive Catholic passtime there were many prominent Presbyterian Republicans as they were also banned from practicing their faith and kept down by the Anglican authorities. If anyone really cared to look into stuff like the potato famine theyed find that the British didin't starve the Irish into leaving on the coffin ships but rather were so far removed from the problem that they completely underestimated the scale of the suffering. Also you've been been supping too much green guiness if you think only Catholic Irish people suffered during it, they're were many Ulster Scot's peasants who came from dreary old scotland seeking work and a better life(ring any bells Irish americans?) on Ireland's fair shores who were starving to death as well.
Anyway that's by the by really. The IRA came from the Irish Volunteer Force, Set up after and the mold of the Ulster Volunteer Force, and were in exixtence prior to the 1916 Rising which was effectively their first and rather misjudged attempt at freeing Ireland occupying such important strategic locations such as the Jacobs biscuit factory. At that time republicanism and the IRA did not enjoy popular support amongst the people of Ireland, rather the Irish Parliamentary Party were the dominant party representing Irish interests at the time, they were a moderate Nationalist party who wanted only Home Rule for Ireland which is a lot different than the free state the Republicans were after. The IRA and Republicanism in general became the dominant representative force for anti-British feeling because of the treatment of the risers and Republicans in general after the Rising. Lloyd George, the british prime minister at the time, had just sacked most of his generals and formed a war cabinet from his own party to try to turn the tide in WWI and didn't really have time to answer the Irish question. He came down very hard on Ireland, executing the ringleaders, some so badly injured they had to be tied to chairs to be shot as they were writhing around in so much pain, and intering without trial 2000+ known republicans(Ring any post 9/11 bells Americans?). This rightly outraged the Irish people and pushed them towards support for the republican movement.
The events from 1916 until the civil war are pretty interesting reading too, completely de-romanticizes people like Eamon Devalera and Led my a self confesssed moderate Unionist to learn to respect and feel sorry for Michael Collins, an honest true believer in freedom.
No one should ever forget the Awful things that happened to Irish Republicans in the North after the Partition but it doesn't excuse the dirty little terrorist war waged by the IRA that made things suck here for so long. There's massive wrong on both sides but if you blame entirely on one group you're an ignorant moron. I'm just glad it's workingish now.
I can't wait to watch this BTW!
Hope Americans don't get too annoyed by my comments but people who live in Ireland can't help but be a bit annoyed by things like Rose Magowans comments or Brad Pitt as an IRA man.
Sorry or the Awful Grammar/spelling, very very tired. :(
shareBloody Sunday took place in 1971 - the IRA existed long before that.
shareI hate getting involved in these, but this statement is idiotic for several reasons and just compounds my disappointment at fellow Northerners not knowing their own history...
1. The 'Bloody Sunday' you're thinking of took place in January 1972.
2. There were THREE 'Bloody Sundays' in Irish history; there have been many more throughout the world (I can count over a dozen). In NI we also had an infamous 'Bloody Monday' and a Bloody Friday' - 'Bloody' is a universal prefix to denote any day where there has been much bloodshed.
Our second 'Bloody Sunday' (the one that the U2 song is about) was is 1920, the day that British forces opened fire on the crowd at a Gaelic football match in Croke Park, killing 14 civilians. The violence spread onto the streets and the death toll reached 30.
I just couldn't let that stand uncorrected. I wish people would think twice before posting on here about politics, particularly when they clearly know nothing on the subject except what they assume to be true, the received wisdom of schoolyards, family homes and pubs.
We could argue about these things for another 40/90/800 years, or we could just accept that there is no truth in any situation, just versions and perspectives. What is important is that we're not killing each other on the streets any more. Move with the times...
Get a grip man, you are American, I bet youve never even seen Ireland, us folk here in Ireland just cant understand why you all persist in using the term "Irish American" its a nonsense.
share[deleted]
"we Irish don't mind who celebrates it, it is a time to enjoy. It's a shame the british don't have the same attitude,"
You do the English a great injustice here, St Patricks is celebrated here with gusto. In fact on Paddys day the Triclour is flow on the village green where I live, that goes to show how much England has moved on. I can only imagine the reaction if St Georges Cross was flown in my parents locale back in Ireland.
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Is it double standards from the British or the English,the British comprise of Irish,welsh,Scot & English.
share[deleted]
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Wow, you really summed up the complexities of our situation with that thoughtful and insightful post gerbells. It's just a shame there aren't more people as smart as you in our lovely island. If there were, there'd be no problems at all!
I'd like to personally beat to death everyone in Ireland who ever claimed that one terrorist organisation was worse than another. The average I.Q. would sky rocket.
The IRA here in ireland was just one half of a war, it takes two sides to start a war, The IRA where created by British greed, we reacted the same way america did when england invaded your asses, catholics couldnt get a job, the british soldiers looked down on us and the IRA where our line of defence, lots of innocent people died during this war but what war doesnt have innocent casulties, to say the IRA where nothing but phycotic murderers is wrong, they where rebels with a cause, a cause to free there country from foreign occupation, if russia invaded england are you telling me some english rebel force wouldnt rise to defend there people, if any country invaded america do you think a rebel force wouldnt rise to defend its people, thats how the IRA started, so before calling them nothing but murderers look at your history and tell me they werent pushed to defend there people, the real IRA who where responsible for the omagh attack that was wrong, and there was no need for it, but they are IRA splinter groups, there not the IRA of the 70's and 80's, perhaps the op had a relative killed during the troubles but thats the only exsplanation i would have for his ridicoulous post.
Formely known as mnemic-god. 24th july 2005 - 10th of july 2008
Balls. True Perhaps for the IRA as it existed up until the end of the civil war but the IRA in the north mutated into just another terrorist organisation no better(or worse) than the UVF or Al-Qaeda. You can hide behind any cultural or political viewpoint that you like but the cold hard fact is that Ireland was freed albiet with a small portion partitioned to protect the thousands of innocent non-republican people concentrated in the North. Did the southern unionists form a terrorist group and murder Irish soliders in an effort to reunite the south with Britain? no they did not. Now I accept that the mistreatment of Catholics in the north immediately after partition was a disgrace with jerrymandering and exclusion from employment and whatnot but shooting policemen and blowing things up merely exasperated the situation making protestant/unionist people fearful and distrustful of all catholic/nationalists.
This quaint, romantic notion of the post partition IRA bravely fighting for a united Ireland is simply justification for wanting a sizeable minority of people ousted from what you view as "your" country. It highlights just how terrible all notions of nationality can become. A man called Hitler once had similar notions and we all know how that turned out.
I thank god that the Republican leadership had the sense and bravery to try to break the circle of violence and also that the Loyalist leadership showed just as much bravery and sense in finally putting aside their distaste and mistrust to try to work together. Now it'll take a few generations but hopefully we'll eventually get to put aside these ridiculous old fashioned notions of nationality and work together as our own nation and take the step to stay with britain or sign up with Ireland or stay out on our own as a united front of Northern Irish people without the same poisonous old sh*t cropping up to ruin things for us again.
Roll on the European superstate.
I'd also liek to mention that we only take history back as far as it suits or own prejudices, go back a few hundreds before British occupation and you'll find that the Irish come from western europe and ursurped the native Irish of the time.
*beep* nationalism of all kinds, it just justifies racism and hatred.
hear hear well said mr miffed someone with a titter of wit at last
shareIm reading the book and so far it changed everything i said in my previous post, im realising how violent and ruthless the IRA where i mean the punishment beatings and kneecapping on kids, and the catholics who stole to get food where kneecapped, as i grew up we are told storys on how heroic the IRA where and how great they where at protecting there people, but so far in the book which in history at school we never learned im realising that all the great things i hear was *beep* a few family members and guys older than me never told me about the young kids being kneecapped and how the IRA beat young catholics to a pulp, not to mention innocent protestants, im keeping my first post up so that other readers on here can see how much the book has opend my eyes,
Formely known as mnemic-god. 24th july 2005 - 10th of july 2008
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The m reading the book and so far it changed everything i said in my previous post, im realising how violent and ruthless the IRA where i mean the punishment beatings and kneecapping on kids, and the catholics who stole to get food where kneecapped, as i grew up we are told storys on how heroic the IRA where and how great they where at protecting there people, but so far in the book which in history at school we never learned im realising that all the great things i hear was *beep* a few family members and guys older than me never told me about the young kids being kneecapped and how the IRA beat young catholics to a pulp, not to mention innocent protestants, im keeping my first post up so that other readers on here can see how much the book has opend my eyes, "
The American people are increasingly angry as thanks to the Internet and easy access to non-American publications they get the facts as opposed to 'correct' educational reference works they were given and taught in school.
Hollywood has a lot to answer for in helping perpetrate these myths.
tb
Not that way Nigel! Not that way, you better hurry or they'll be nothing left for you!
Exactly. At last someone speaking sense
share"Did the southern unionists form a terrorist group and murder Irish soliders in an effort to reunite the south with Britain? no they did not"
That is an absurd statement. You can't expect to argue that it was wrong for the Irish people to want to unify and govern it own country. The english were Wrong. Anyone who believes that England was right is fatous and deranged, and should be locked away because there is no place for them in society.
I say that time does not heal all wounds. As long as the atrocity that is the partitioning of Ireland goes unrectified there will always be organisations like the IRA and its couterparts.
'England invaded your asses'?
America WAS English so how can you invade yourself?
That's like saying Oregon was invaded by the USA!
As for all the Rep Irish and pro Irish having a go at the British on this thread, the REAL start of the 'troubles' was when the Irish captured and sold back the escaped British to the Romans who had enslaved them.
Imagine that, your nearest neighbor selling you into slavery and death, it left deep wounds on the British pysche, no wonder there is bad blood.
GET YOUR TIME LINES CORRECT.
As for Hollywood they wouldn't know historical fact if it bit them, all those frankly laughable anti-British films display deep insecurities and an astonishing level of ignorance.
What never ceases to amaze me is how some people blinded by ignorance and hate refuse to realize that the UK is the ONLY country that believed and practised enlightened political policies centuries before human 'rights'.
The entire UK is made up of small countries united in shared government, pretty much every other country in europe and around the world committed genocide on local and indigenous cultures in order to create unified states and centralize power.
Across the world individuals were not asked, they were ruthlessly ABSORBED, the one's who refused murdered including communities and in some cases entire people's.
Most modern states had their origins in this practice EXCEPT the UK..........
tb
[note: I used the term 'British' as opposed to English to prevent confusion]
Not that way Nigel! Not that way, you better hurry or they'll be nothing left for you!
Well, I've heard it all now.
Firstly it might have fostered resentment by the British in Roman times. But as they were all slaughtered by the Danes and Anglo Saxons who then took over, fought amongst themselves and were in turn usurped and occupied by Normandy, I doubt if it bothered anyone in 1169 when earls of Leinster made the catastrophic mistake of inviting Strongbow over from England to help in a local conflict.
The conflict is this: Nationalists in NI are a minority within NI. Unionists are a minority within the whole of Ireland. How do you cure people of the fear of being the minority? Is bombing and shooting them the answer?
Awkward fact is that if Unionist opinion and the police had let the then NI Unionist PM Terence O'Niell instigate reforms in the mid sixties instead of attacking them and civil rights marchers, then the conflict would not have happened. The country would not have divided into armed ghettoes. After 3700 dead we have the extremists sharing power and agreeing not to shoot anyone. Better than we had fifteen years ago but not what could have been achieved.
Most modern states had their origins in this practice EXCEPT the UK..........
That is a rediculous statement. What world do you live in? Do you really beleive that? If so there are some JFK fanatics here in Dallas that you would get along great with.
did america murder sexually abuse rob and intimidate their fellow americans all in the name of fighting the brits?
The IRA were created by the Britishshare
we reacted the same way america did when england invaded
If native Hawaiians started a campaign for independence from the federal USA government would that make them disidents,how would Washington deal with them,just a thought......?
share[deleted]
There is no need to postulate a theoretical Hawaiian independence campaign. The US has had all types of secessionist and independence movements, from Indian Wars, Confederacy 1861-5, the Puerto Rican insurgents shooting inside the house of representatives and planting bombs, to the entirely legal peaceful constitutional methods of Alaskan Independence Party.
Washington's reaction would be determined by what threat to civil order they posed.
It look like the only way to settle this debate is to nuke the whole world..
"I understood writing could be dangerous. I didn't realize the danger came from the machinery."
Why don't they make a film about the brutality of UVF?
"Our revenge will be the laughter of our children" - Bobby Sands 1954-1981 R.I.P.
How about a realistic portrail of the RUC with the B-Specials
"I no longer know who I am and I feel like the ghost of a total stranger"
No-one would go to watch it, as they are not nearly as well known as the IRA and no-one outside Northern Ireland sympathises with them.
The IRA had sympathy across the world, but no-one ever had sympathy with the UVF. I've lived in England all my life, and I have never once heard anyone declare their support for the UVF or Ian Paisley or any staunch Unionists. The vast majority of English people do not care whether Northern Ireland stays with the UK or leaves it. I think this is the reason why Hollywood has tended to favour the Republican side in its film-making: there's a larger audience for it. This film is a step forward, but still it needed to be set within the Republican community to get interest. There would be no market for a film set within the unionist community.
OP I couldn't agree more. The IRA are moronic, murdering, drug running scum. I was stood outside the Arndale Center during the manchester bombing. I broke both my legs, and lost my left eye due to the explosion. I hope the IRA burn in their own personnel Hell!!!
shareThe point of the film is not the particulars of the IRAs brutality, but the brutality of man, how a man can be pushed to join these organisations (other film good for viewing for many of you would be "Five Minutes of Heaven") and how these organisations thrive on the inequalities forced upon them by governments.
Look at the general Catholic-Irish population in the film who view the IRA as heroes/soldiers despite how they treat people who break their rules. Hell, they killed a man and his father thanked them? The way the Catholic/Republican minority were treated swelled the IRA numbers, and not a single person can argue that they weren't second class citizens in many parts of the country.
The film also does a brilliant job of raising the role of the British government in the conflict, as they willingly negotiated with these terrorists, the same terrorists they let die in jail due to starvation.
Really brings up the corrupt morality of governments and mankind than anything else, but sadly, when the "troubles" are involved, it degrades into a bunch of people from both sides spouting off half-learned rubbish/propaganda.
Don't know why I continue to expect more from the internet...
The IRA are...drug running scum.
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