MovieChat Forums > Ms. Marvel (2022) Discussion > Is Kamala Khan actually a real Muslim?

Is Kamala Khan actually a real Muslim?


The whole idea behind this show is Ms. Marvel is the first Muslim superhero in the MCU. But that begs the question of whether Kamala Khan really is a Muslim. A Muslim is a follower of Islam. The central belief of Islam is that there are no gods but Allah. Islam rejects the very possibility of the existence of multiple gods. But the MCU is full of gods. One of the most important gods in the MCU is Thor, the god of thunder. He's part of the Avengers and Kamala Khan is a big fan of the Avengers. She never questions the fact that Thor is a god. In the middle of the show's run Thor: Love and Thunder came out in theater. In that movie Thor visits a whole city full of gods, including Zeus. How can someone really be a Muslim if she casually accepts the existence of other gods? Can anyone living in the MCU really be a true Muslim when it has all these gods? It's stupid for a superhero franchise that deals with anything supernatural to be heavily involved with religion.

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Thor isn't a god, he's an alien. In the MCU, the people of Earth, Kamala Khan included, are aware of this.

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Thor is most definitely a god. He is only an alien is the sense that he is an alien to the people of Earth but that does not in any way change his status as a god. Throughout the MCU films he is repeatedly referred to as a god (as are the rest of his family). It is never at any point denied that he is a god. The villain from Thor: Love and Thunder is called Gorr the God Butcher because he goes around killing gods. He wants to kill Thor because Thor is a god. Kamala Khan is certainly not "aware" that Thor is just an alien and not also a god. She's a big fan of The Avengers so she clearly knows that Thor is the God of Thunder.

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I think you have misunderstood the films. Thor, Zeus, and the rest are worshipped by same as gods, but are in fact alien beings, albeit of astounding strength and ability. Thor was worshipped as a god in the past, primarily by the Vikings, but it's now a known fact that he's just a guy from another planet, i.e. and alien, and though he has great powers, is not a capital-g God.

Gorr the God Butcher is called that because he is killing those who are worshipped as gods. Like everyone else on Earth, Kamala knows this.

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You're the one misunderstanding the MCU. What you're talking about is clearly just your own interpretation and it's an interpretation completely lacking any basis in the MCU itself. The MCU repeatedly refers to Thor, Zeus, etc. as gods because the MCU specifically views them as gods. The MCU never at any point states or even infers that they're just "viewed" as gods. They're both alien beings and gods at the same time. Thor is a god from another planet. He is not the capital-g God but he is still a lowercase-g god. Gorr the God Butcher is specifically called that by the MCU because the MCU views those he kills specifically as gods. That's why he's called Gorr the God Butcher instead of Gorr the Those-Who-Are-Worshipped-As-Gods Butcher. No one on Earth, including Kamala Khan, "knows" that Thor is not a god. The MCU provides absolutely no basis for asserting otherwise.

You mistakenly talk about the MCU's Thor and Zeus as "alien beings with astounding strength and ability" as if that were somehow different from "gods". But that's exactly how Thor and Zeus were actually viewed in ancient times. Thor and Zeus were always viewed by those who worshipped them as "beings with astounding strength and ability". That's what it meant to be a god. Your description of the MCU's Thor doesn't actually disprove his actual status as an actual god.

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emperor of Japan is considerd a god

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lmfao.

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You've misunderstood what has been directly stated in the films, but you're so adamant in your disbelief that it's pointless to continue this. I suggest you rewatch the films and you will see that Thor is considered, and spoken of, as an alien being from an alien planet.

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I'm well aware of the dialogue in the first Thor movie that you're talking about. It's complete b.s. because it's made clear in the comic books that Thor is a god. That dialogue is completely abandoned in every subsequent movie with Thor. In subsequent films Thor and the rest of his family are repeatedly referred to as gods by others. In Thor: Ragnarok Hela repeatedly refers to herself as the Goddess of Death but Thor and Loki never even try to correct that claim. They never tell her that she's really just a very powerful "being" or "alien" who's merely "worshipped" as the Goddess of Death. They take it for granted that she really is the Goddess of Death.

And could you even explain to me the difference between Thor and an actual god? No matter what you may think Thor actually is, it's clear that his very existence is a challenge to Kamala Khan's supposed Islamic faith. She doesn't even try to reconcile her supposed Islamic faith with the existence of this supernaturally powerful being.

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They're using the term god, but in the small-g sense. There has never been any claim that any of them have divine powers. They are clearly, openly stated to be one of many alien races. Thanos, Ego, Thor, and all the rest are merely living, breathing, flesh and blood creatures. The notion of a capital-g God is that of a divine power, who exists beyond our realm of understanding, and is nearly always omnipotent, and has control over our fates. In Ragnarok, Infinity War, Loki, and elsewhere it has been clearly demonstrated that Asgardians are merely a race of beings who live on the planet Asgard, and while they are far stronger than humans, and some have some remarkable powers, they are not divine.

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>>>They're using the term god, but in the small-g sense. There has never been any claim that any of them have divine powers. They are clearly, openly stated to be one of many alien races. <<<

Actually, that is not correct. Originally, Thor and the others were called gods and never referred to as aliens. In fact, the gods of earth specifically rise from earth. Gaea, Cthon, Set, and others materialized in the life force of earth before any other life arose. In time the other original gods degenerated into demons. Gaea called on the life force of earth, called the Demiurge, and conceived Atum who destroyed the other gods. Some, like Cthon and Set were able to escape this destruction.

Gaea then caused the new generation of gods.

Now, the Cinematic Universe chose to go a different way. The comics may have followed suit; I can't say as I haven't read comics regularly since the early 2000's.

Author of the Sodality Universe
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FilmBuff,

I think I now fully understand your confustion about what I'm saying about gods. *I'm* also using the term god in the small-g sense. It doesn't make any sense to claim that small-g gods don't have divine powers. 'Divine' is by definition related to a god. A "god" by definition is divine. There is more than one concept of what it means to be a god. It's clear that you're talking about the *monotheistic* version of God. I'm talking about the *polytheistic* concept of gods. Thor clearly falls under the polytheistic definition of a god. That's even more true of far more powerful beings in the MCU such as Ego and Arishem. A being with Thor's powers clearly meets the definition of a polytheistic god. He is NOT "merely a living, breathing, flesh and blood creature." He has the power of *reincarnation after death* and he can produce thunder. That makes him a god. Thor is not a normal Asgardian. He, Odin and Hela are the gods that rule over the Asgardians. Whether you realize it or not Thor is a god *as the MCU understands it*. Do you realize how absurd it is for you to claim that the MCU is wrong about its own conceptual idea of what makes someone a god?

So as I said before, this MCU concept of a god as embodied by Thor is a direct challenge to Kamala Khan's supposed Islamic faith. She doesn't even try to reconcile her supposed Islamic faith with the existence of the MCU's concept of a god.

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A Muslim believes there is one all-powerful, all-knowing being who created the universe. He is singularly divine. He cannot be killed, or even wounded, and he has total control of everything in existence.

Thor, on the other hand, is a member of an alien race. His race is far stronger than the human race, and he is one of the strongest of his race. He can summon thunder and lightning, much like Storm can, so perhaps he's a mutant Asgardian. Or maybe Asgardians are sometimes born gifted, so it's a normal aspect of their race, and not a mutation. That's all speculation, and beside the point. Thor is simply a strong alien.

That some people worship him as a god doesn't make him one. That he refers to himself as a god doesn't make him one. That Gorr believes him to be a god doesn't make him one. Any Muslim knows this. A Muslim knows that Allah is a truly divine being with power beyond what Thor can ever imagine. Allah could obliterate Thor without effort, while Thor is powerless before Allah.

Kamala likely realizes that some groups of humans, such as the Vikings, truly believed that the Asgardians were gods, and worshipped them as such as part of their monotheistic religion, but that's no different than if a sect of people today began worshiping you and I as their gods based on our intellectual wit and clever back-and-forth on Moviechat. We'd still just be two dudes, and to Kamala Thor and his god pals are just a bunch of dudes, albeit strong ones.

Lastly-- I don't recall Thor ever being reincarnated after death, or even dying. Other than when Thanos' snap was undone, I don't recall any MCU character dying and returning to life. What moment are you referring to as Thor dying and being reincarnated?

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First off, the perspective of the MCU is that Thor, Odin, etc. are gods. That makes them gods within the context of the MCU. The *people who made the MCU* would not have these characters call themselves gods if they were not actually gods as the MCU understands it. What you're doing would be like denying that Dumbledore is a wizard in Harry Potter or denying that the Wicked Witch of the West is a witch in the Wizard of Oz. See how that works?

I'm well aware of what Muslims believe about God. That's the *monotheistic* concept of God. Thor falls under the *polytheistic* version of a god. See the difference? Your description of Thor as a "strong alien" matches up perfectly with the *polytheistic* concept of a god. Whether or not Thor is "worshipped" has nothing to do with this. It's his *powers* that make him a god. That's the *perspecitve of the MCU* and that's all that matters for Ms. Marvel because that show is *part of the MCU*. See how that works?

The fact of the matter is that within the MCU, Allah, whose existence is completely unacknowledged by the MCU, does NOT obliterate Thor. And that would propose a clear challenge to the faith of Muslims *within the MCU*. The fact that Thor exists and is not obliterated by Allah would challenge their belief system. As would all of Thor's activities on Earth throughout the MCU. In this context, Muslims within the MCU could not actually have the certainty to "know" Thor is not really a god, that Allah could obliterate Thor or that Allah even exists.

You talk about Muslims in the MCU as if they're not actually in the MCU or they're not real, complex people. Look at all the crazy stuff that happens on Earth in the MCU. Thanos wiped out half of humanity in an instant. Such wild and crazy things would undeniably shake the faith of many if not most Muslims who had to live through such craziness. That's how *real* people would react in such a scenario. Yet you have the temerity to casually deny this. That the Ms. Marvel show does the same thing with Kamala Khan makes it a total joke. Kamala Khan is a completely unrealistic Muslim.

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[deleted]

And that's important in the context of Kamala Khan being a supposed Muslim. Islam devised a central belief that there are no gods but Allah in order to stamp out belief in the multiple minor gods of pre-Islamic Arabia. Pre-Islamic Arabians believed in gods similiar to Thor. The MCU's Thor is exactly the kind of "god" that Islam refuses to acknowledge existing. In that context you can clearly see how absurd it is for Kamala Khan to really be a Muslim while also fangirling the Avengers. Islam clearly does not want its followers to acknowledge the existence of "alien beings with astounding strength and ability", especially not those with magically-derived strengths and abilities which are *not attributed to Allah*. Islam definitely does not want its followers to fangirl a man with the literal power of thunder who does not attribute his powers to Allah.

And you forget about the far more powerful gods in the MCU such as Ego, Arishem and Eternity. Surely you won't deny that these characters are gods. In Thor: Love and Thunder, Thor goes to stop Gorr the God Butcher from asking Eternity to kill all the gods. You have to at least acknowledge that Eternity is a god here. How can Kamala Khan legitimately be a real Muslim when she fangirls the central hero in this adventure? How can Islam possibly legitimately acknowledge even the existence of these "gods" or whatever you want to call them, their enormous powers and the astounding events surrounding them as portrayed in the MCU?

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The only real way to distinguish between the two is to have a set of characteristics that need to be met before one might be called a god. In your opinion what would that be?

There has actually been a good deal of speculation and writing done on this subject. From some of the articles I've seen a couple of the features required for god-ship is 1) immortality and 2) whether or not mortal beings can visit and thrive in the homeland of the potential god-creature in question. There are others but these two seem to come up. I can see why the first would be important but not the second as much.

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This is so sad

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They are literally gods, that's how they are presented in the MCU.

Have you seen any MCU movies???

https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Thor

Gorr is on a mission to kill all gods. NOT all aliens, lol

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I've watched them all, including the ones where the directly say Thor is an alien being from an alien planet. Gorr is on a mission to kill the aliens who are worshiped as gods.

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Will you at least admit that Eternity is a god? Gorr is not on a mission to kill the aliens who are worshipped as gods. That's why he's called Gorr the God Butcher instead of Gorr the Aliens-Who-Are-Worshipped-As-Gods butcher. The fact that those he kills are actual gods is never once challenged in the movie. Thor never says that he's just killing aliens that are worshipped as gods. He acknowledges that those he kills really are gods. Could you even explain to me the difference between these "gods" in the MCU and the polytheistic gods worshipped by ancient human civilizations? What is a polytheistic god if not simply an overly powerful being with supernatural abilities?

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You've hit on it with your final sentence. A God has supernatural abilities. All of the gods you list are part of the natural world order of the MCU. Neither Eternity nor Thor is a divine being. Even the fact that they can be killed demonstrates this, for a divine God is beyond life or death. He simply is. A God has always existed, and will always exist.

The MCU is predicated on an entirely different set of natural laws than our real world, and part of those natural laws allow for things like Infinity Stones, sentient planets like Ego, and the existence of incredibly powerful beings like Thor, Thanos, Galactus, or the Beyonder. If anyone is close to being a God, it might be the Beyonder, but even he isn't made to be one, at least in the comics.

For what it's worth, the comics tend to leave the true religious Gods out of things. Some people believe in them, others don't, but to my knowledge they are never portrayed in Marvel's comics. Jesus has never shown up to save the day, etc.

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You're still confused because you're approaching this exclusively from the perspective of a monotheistic God as the only possible version of a god that could exist. Yes, a god has supernatural abilities. And Thor has supernatural abilities. There is zero scientific explanation for Thor's powers. Your attempt to linguistically distinguish natural from supernatural in this context is absurd. I could just as easily claim that the monotheistic version of God does not have supernatural abilities because that worldview conceives of everything God does as completely natural since God created everything.

Pointing out that the MCU has different natural laws than the real world doesn't actually change anything that I said. Pointing out that the MCU's natural laws allow for superpowerful beings such as Thor and Ego is the *EXACT SAME THING* as saying that the MCU's natural laws allow for the *EXISTENCE OF GODS*. See how that works? These are *polytheistic* gods. You can only claim that I'm wrong about this by exclusively applying the criteria of a *monotheistic* concept of God, which I am NOT doing and neither is the MCU. What you're saying about the "natural order" of the MCU is just as true of the "natural order" of the world as understood by ancient polytheistic religions. You're really just playing semantic games.

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Because the MCU deals with super-powered beings, they have to operate with natural laws different from those of the real world. That doesn't mean that someone who would be a god in our reality is one in their reality.

Yes, if Thor existed in the real world, he would be a god-like figure to some. Muslims would no doubt deny he was a god, pointing out that Allah is the only god, as would Jews and Christians with their own god, but he could very easily cultivate a following. But that's our real world, where he doesn't exist, and can't.

It seems like your argument boils down to saying that if people worship someone as a god, he is a god, so the fact that polytheistic religions consider guys like Thor gods, he must be one. My counterpoint is that we're talking about Kamala, a Muslim, who believes Allah is the one god. She's as likely to acknowledge Thor as a god as she is to acknowledge L. Ron Hubbard as one.

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You don't realize how obtuse you're being here. The gods of the MCU refer to themselves and to each other as gods because that's the perspective of the *creators* of the MCU. That they are gods is official canon. Which means you can't legitimately deny it. They repeatedly call themselves gods because the *fact* that they are gods is the *perspective* of the MCU. They would not repeatedly call themselves and each other gods unless they really were gods as the MCU understands it. Proper analysis of these characters necessarily flows from that undeniable fact.

Even if you want to claim that there are "natural laws" within the universe of the MCU that doesn't change anything. The existence of such "natural laws" doesn't mean that the gods of the MCU are not gods. Most polytheistic gods from ancient civilizations are bounded in some way by natural laws. The fact that the MCU's gods are limited in some way by "natural laws" does not actually change their status as gods. It just means that they're *gods with limited powers*. Which is typical of polytheistic gods.

Whether or not a being is "worshipped" as a god is completely irrelevant to their status as a god. I have never argued that it does and have no idea why you would think that. You need to pay better attention to what I'm actually saying. A being is a god because of the *power/s* that he has. Even if no one worshipped such a being he would still be a god because of his powers.

If Thor really existed in the real world his very existence would be an *undeniable challenge to the validity of every monotheistic religion*. If someone with the powers of Thor really existed and on top of that he denied that his powers came from Allah his *very existence* would be a threat to Islam's legitimacy. Regardless of whether anyone "worshipped" him, his existence and the implications of that existence would by itself be a huge problem for Islam. It would call into question the truth of their beliefs and no matter what any Muslim said about it his very existence would do enormous damage to their belief system.

In this scenario, all faithful Muslims would at the very least have to *proactively deny* the truth of Thor's existence/powers. The point is that Muslims could not even try to publicly maintain their faith without *proactively addressing* the implications of Thor's existence. It would cause Muslims great strife and struggle both as individuals and as whole communities. This would be an obvious, undeniable issue and the problem with Ms. Marvel is that it pretends it's no problem at all! It doesn't address this issue at all!

The fact that Kamala Khan merely acknowledges *Thor's very existence* is a clear problem for her status as a Muslim and the very least this show owes the audience is to have Kamala Khan *proactively address* the issue. Her complete silence on the issue is tacit agreement that Thor is a god. It's illegitimate for you to do the hard work of grappling with the implications of Thor's existence that Kamala Khan does not do. The show's choice to have her fanboy the Avengers without showing her doing literally anything at all to try to reconcile Thor's very existence with Islam makes her very status as an actual Muslim a total joke. The show is completely avoiding the elephant in the room.

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[deleted]

She's a Muslim. She goes to the Mosque dutifully and follows her religion's rules as more closely than most religious people.

But she hasn't met Thor yet. When she does, it's a toss-up whether her religion or her hormones will end up in control of her brain.

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Your thinking is very superficial. Just because Kamala Khan goes to mosque and the show labels her a "Muslim" doesn't automatically mean that she really is a Muslim. Since the central belief of Islam is that there are no gods but Allah how can she really be "following the rules" of Islam if she acknowledges the existence of at least one other god? The fact that she hasn't met Thor yet, if she ever will, is irrelevant. The fact that she knows about Thor and merely acknowledges his existence is enough on its own to challenge Islam's central belief and therefore it's enough to challenge her status as an authentic Muslim. The very existence of Thor and all the other gods is actually a problem for all Muslims in the world of the MCU.

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Bad argument. A real Muslim would not live in a country were half the people believe in the Jewish/Xtian god. Unless it had Muslim rulers. Maybe she should go allahu akbar!

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She's a superhero fangirl.

She probably knows that if an Asgardian ever calls himself a god to her face, to reply "There's only one God, ma'am or sir, and I'm pretty sure He doesn't dress like that! Bazinga!".

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The fact that Kamala Khan is a superhero fangirl proves me right. If Thor isn't really a god then that would make him a fraud. Why would she be a fan girl for a superhero she felt was a fraud? You don't seem to get that it doesn't matter whether she meets Thor in person and he tells her that he's a god. Thor exists, he calls himself a god and Kamala Khan accepts this as reality without ever having met him. She never challenges it in any way. Which is a direct challenge to the Muslim faith which she allegedly adheres to. Which means she can't really be a Muslim.

If Kamala Khan and Thor were to actually meet in person at any point in the MCU she would never be given the chance to challenge his status as a god. The MCU couldn't afford it. Either she would be wrong about him not being a god in which case her Muslim faith would be openly exposed as a joke or she would be right and the entire MCU would be exposed as a joke because the fact that Thor is a god and there are multiple other gods in the MCU has been a central tenet of the MCU for more than 10 years.

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Perhaps someday they will address this silly issue in a Marvel film or TV show.

We can all look forward to a deep debate on Divinity, between a sheltered 16-year-old, and an Alien who's lived 1500 years and learned nothing!

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The MCU will never resolve this issue because they don't even recognize it as an issue. All they want is a "Muslim" superhero. All that matters to them is Kamala Khan's superficial identity as a "Muslim superhero". All they want is the cultural credit they get for such political correctness. They got what they wanted. They have no reason to even address the issue of whether or not Kamala Khan is a real Muslim because it's an issue that no one even talks about. It's simply off everyone's radar.

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Bugger off, troll. I'm tired of you.

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I'm so glad someone brought this up.

Cap is presumably a Christian, and already denies Thor as being any sort of god.

Also, Thor isn't even a god the same way a Christian or a Muslim would talk about. As far as they or anyone's concerned, Thor is a superpowered alien. Thor is still just a part of creation.

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Thor is a polytheistic version of a god. That is very different from the monotheistic version of God. The Christian/Muslim concept of God simply wouldn't apply to Thor. However, Thor is pretty much the same type of god that pre-Islamic Arabians believed in and that is very relevant in the context of a Muslim accepting the fact of Thor's existence. Islam wouldn't accept the existence of the MCU's Thor anymore than it would accept the existence of those pre-Islamic Arabian gods.

Captain America may have been a Christian or even just a deist at one point in time. We don't really know that he ever followed any actual religion. And if he was ever religious, we don't know that he maintained any religious beliefs after having met Thor. He only denied that Thor was a god before he had a chance to meet him. He never denied that Thor was a god at any point after their first meeting. Captain America's supposed Christianity/Deism may have been hinted at with that one line in The Avengers but it was completely ignored in everything both before and after in the MCU.

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Captain America "There is only 1 God and he doesn't look like that."

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With or without super heroes I don't think Kamala Khan is a Muslim.

She is as Muslim as most of those who think they are Christians but never go to churches, except out of family obligations or peer pressure. As in religion is more of family influence and culture, not that they are believers.

Kamala Khan never really prayed or seeking guidance from a higher power.

Also religions are about faith, means you are believing something can't be proven. Thor can be proven, believing in the supernatural power of Thor is not religion, it is science.

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Also religions are about faith, means you are believing something can't be proven. Thor can be proven, believing in the supernatural power of Thor is not religion, it is science.


Bingo. I remember arguing with an atheist many years ago. He was like, "I won't believe in God, unless he splits the sky open, steps down and announces himself"

And it's like uh...why would you think that that's God. It could be an alien. Asking for proof to justify a position that isn't based on that sort of proof to begin with.

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That's a weird take on the situation. That's like saying that because Christianity says homosexuality is a sin so all Christians should reject and punish LGBTQ, which some Christians did, but not all of them. Are you saying that all those who didn't are not Christians?

I'm a Muslim, and one of my favorite films is The Man from Earth. The movie basically refutes religions, but I don't care because I know the movie is not anti-religion; it's just an aspect of the premise, which is one of the greatest premises I've ever watched.

Like many people already mentioned, she probably simply doesn't consider those beings gods. And she's a fan of CM, anyway.

I don't really care about the politic of Hollywood, if they want to promote this as the first Muslim superhero, yeah go ahead. I don't enjoy the series anyway, the pacing is too slow for me in the beginning, and none of the characters catch my attention.

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" Are you saying that all those who didn't are not Christians?"

That´s correct. Anyone who claims to be a Christian and does not follow and believe the word of God isn´t a Christian. Matthew 7:21-23 refers to those who believe they are Christians (but are false converts) as being cast out on the day of judgment. 1 John 2:19 also alludes to false teachers/converts as "not being one of us". John 10:27 also says, "My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me".

I don´t know that much about Islam but I would assume it would be similar to a Muslim who claimed to be a Muslim without observing the 5 pillars of Islam.

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gantz8596,

Your comparison to Christians who are not homophobic is a bad analogy because that's a matter of how someone deals with a single rule in the Bible. What I'm talking about is the basic beliefs of a religion. I'm talking about the core questions of a religion's theology. Lamely claiming that Kamala Khan "probably" doesn't consider Thor a god is a huge insult to the intelligence and self-respect of all the Muslims in the MCU. If she doesn't consider Thor to be a god then that would make him a fraud. Why would she fangirl a fraud? Thor's magical powers are completely unexplained by anything within Islam and to genuinely maintain Islamic faith with knowledge of his existence would at the very least require a huge intellectual struggle that would consume all Muslims within the MCU. But even that doesn't happen in this show or anywhere else in the MCU so that proves that Kamala Khan's "Islam" is simply an unearned label. Whether or not you care about it, this show makes a total mockery of Islam.

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That's reaching way too far, dude. No technology after middle age can be explained by religion. Are you saying all religious people should reject technology? Otherwise, it became an "insult to the intelligence and self-respect" of all religious people. Seriously? Who are you to dictate how religious people should think? Especially about religion you barely know about.

Or am I wrong? Maybe your religion has an expanded part that explains thermonuclear, gravity wave, and quantum theory.

Kamala Khan DEFINITELY doesn't consider Thor a God, just like how I, a Muslim, DEFINITELY don't consider other religions relevant. But it doesn't stop me from saying Merry Christmas to those who celebrate.

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I'm not reaching too far. I'm not talking about technology. I'm talking about a living being with the literal power of thunder and lightning. Thor is not a robot. His special abilities are not technology but an innate part of his being. They have no explanation in science. Thermonuclear physics, gravity waves and quantum theory are explained by science so there is no comparison between these things and Thor.

I'm not "dictating" how religious people should think. I'm explaining how people would actually think if they actually were religious. I know enough about Islam to know that Thor's very existence is a threat to the religious beliefs of supposed Muslims in the MCU. The central belief of Islam is that there are no gods but Allah so the existence of other gods would necessarily delegitimize Islam. How am I wrong about any of this?

You have absolutely no basis for claiming that Kamala Khan "definitely" doesn't believe Thor is a god. First off, within the MCU Thor is known as a god. Kamala Khan fangirls the Avengers despite the fact that one of them is a god. If she doesn't believe Thor to really be a god then she would consider him a fraud. Why would she fangirl a fraud?

Second, your experience as a *real Muslim* in the *real world* has no application to Kamala Khan in the sci-fi world of the MCU. Your logic is working backwards. You start with the assumption that Khan is a Muslim and therefore you conclude that she is certain that Thor is not a god. But there is zero evidence of that certainty. On the show she is never actually shown to deny the fact that Thor is a god. Khan is a supposed Muslim at the same time she fangirls a god of thunder because her "Islam" is not a serious, complex reality but simply a label that the show slaps on her. This show simply pretends that there's no conflict between the realities of the MCU and Kamala Khan's Islam.

Your mere acknowledgment of a holiday celebrated by another religion wouldn't reasonably threaten your Muslim beliefs but if you saw Jesus Christ rise from the dead then that would definitely challenge your Islamic beliefs. You watching Jesus Christ rise from the dead is the valid comparison to Kamala Khan living in a world where everyone knows that Thor can create thunder and lightning.

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I'm not "dictating" how religious people should think. I'm explaining how people would actually think if they actually were religious.


Wow... how the f can somebody refute themselves within two sentences.

You're reaching way too far in the sense that you think the Muslims are so traditional and dimwit that they can't imagine a strong being is not a deity. My comparison is to show you that in the time period of Jesus, an existence like an Ironman would definitely be seen as a deity because they don't know anything. Even an existence like Thor is no different than dr. Strange or Captain Marvel, who is just a very strong being with an unconventional source of power. And you think that all Muslims are incapable of wrapping their head around that idea? Fuck you.

You start with the assumption that Khan is a Muslim and therefore you conclude that she is certain that Thor is not a god. But there is zero evidence of that certainty.


No, you're the one who started with the assumption that Kamala thought Thor was a god. Where is YOUR evidence?

On the show she is never actually shown to deny the fact that Thor is a god


And she never acknowledges it. Again your without-any-evidences assumption.

Your logic is working backwards


Oh, the irony.

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I didn't refute myself at all when I claimed that I was not dictating. I said that I was describing rather than dictating. Do you really not know the difference between dictating and describing? They're not the same thing but you talk as if they were.

What you say about people believing Iron Man was a god if he were around 2000 years ago doesn't prove anything. What do people "know" now that they didn't know 2000 years ago? You're completely ignoring the actual realities of the MCU. Thor is considered a god within the MCU. He is repeatedly referred to as a god within the MCU.

Everyone living in the MCU knows that Thor is a god. He is a god rather than "just a very strong being with an unconventional source of power". And even if he were "just a very strong being with an unconventional source of power", how is that actually different than a god? Kamala Khan never denies what everyone else in the MCU knows about Thor. Therefore, she obviously understands that Thor is a god. Thor being a god is such a universally accepted reality within the MCU that her choice to not explicitly deny it amounts to a clearly implicit acknowledgment of this fact. And if she doesn't believe Thor is a god then she would believe he was a fraud. Why would she fangirl a fraud? I asked that question before and you never answered it.

You haven't even come close to proving me wrong about my claim that your logic is working backwards and you don't even seem to be trying. Your talk about the realities of religion is completely naive and unrealistic. In the real world religious people give up their beliefs all the time because of all kinds of tragedies and other natural events. If some being *in the real world* suddenly showed up who had the literal power of thunder and lightning that would cause a crisis of faith for most religious people. Monotheism is based around the assumption that people can't just show up with the literal power of a god.

If Thor showed up *in the real world* it would cause an enormous religious crisis, which you surely wouldn’t deny, but for some unexplained reason you think that religious people in the MCU are somehow different than those in the real world. Real, genuine people of faith in the MCU would have their religious beliefs unavoidably challenged by mere knowledge of Thor’s existence. Even if Muslims in the MCU believed that Thor was not a god but "just a very strong being with an unconventional source of power" his very existence would still pose an unavoidable challenge to their beliefs.

Thor’s very existence would force Muslims in the MCU to go through intense spiritual struggle just to maintain their beliefs. Muslims in the MCU do nothing of the sort and that makes it very awkward to show Muslims in the MCU continuing to adhere to their faith. Kamala Khan blithely fangirling the Avengers, which includes a self-declared god, without making any visible effort to square the supernatural events of the MCU with Islam makes her adherence to Islam a total joke. Thus, her status as a "Muslim" is merely a cheap label slapped on her by this show rather than a deep, complex reality.

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You're talking in a circle now, keep saying the same thing over and over don't make it right. I'd rather do a point by point argument. But of course, you prefer a wall of text to blur your argument with volume.

The one piece of evidence that has been told to you before that you keep evading is in the first Avengers. Before Captain America jump out of the plane, Black Widow told her that Thor is "basically" god, and cap easily said "There is only one God, mam. And I'm sure He doesn't dress like that."

So you see, people in MCU CAN actually think for themselves; they don't need you to teach them about their religion.

https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Asgardians

Read that wiki to educate yourself that Asgardian is an alien race. The ancient Norse worship them as gods, but they are never gods.

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If there is anything in my "wall of text" that you don't understand then please tell me what it is and I will explain it to you. You shouldn't act so certain that I'm wrong if you don't understand everything I'm saying. I have discussed major issues which you have not even tried to address.

I'm well aware that Asgardians are an alien race in the sense that they live on a planet other than Earth but not all Asgardians are the same. Odin, Thor, Loki and Hela are not average Asgardians. They are the *gods* among the Asgardians. That's how they got their *godly* powers. You should also note the events of Thor: Love and Thunder. Gorr the God Butcher seeks to kill all the gods within the universe of the MCU. He chooses to kill some beings but not others, *which means that "god" is a clearly defined category of beings in the MCU*. Thor is the only Asgardian that Gorr seeks to kill because he is the only Asgardian that's actually a god. See how that works? This is further reinforced by the existence of Omnipotence City, a city exclusively reserved for gods.

That conversation between Captain America and Black Widow doesn't actually prove what you think it does. First off, it doesn't prove that Thor is not a god. It would at most prove that Captain America did not personally believe at that time that Thor was a god. Second, that conversation took place right after Captain America saw Thor for only a few seconds for the first time. He wasn't yet fully aware of the truth of what Thor really was. His reply to Black Widow was merely an expression of his religious beliefs prior to meeting Thor.

You may have noticed that Captain America never made any other expressions of religious faith in the rest of that movie nor in any future movies in the MCU. For all we know he completely abandoned any religious faith he had after getting to know Thor better in the rest of that movie. The point is that openly showing Captain America to still be religious after that point in the storyline of the MCU would have been very awkward. Meeting Thor was only the beginning for Captain America. He later learned about the Infinity Stones, which were then used to make half the Earth's population disappear.

By the time of the Ms. Marvel show, the entire Earth knows that Thor is a god and it went through the enormous tumult of half the population disappearing and then reappearing 5 years later. You don't see Captain America continuing to make expressions of religious faith in the MCU by that point, do you? The MCU showing anyone on Earth continuing to express religious faith by that point in time *without at least making a thorough explanation of the justification for continued faith* would look completely ridiculous. Kamala Khan continues to be a faithful Muslim after everyone on Earth knows about Thor and after the Snap without even bothering to make the tiniest explanation justifying her continued faith? What a freaking joke!

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It would at most prove that Captain America did not personally believe at that time that Thor was a god.


How do YOU KNOW that it's the first time he heard about Thor. YOU DON'T THINK he's been briefed about Asgardians? Because he was guarding Loki at the time? Wow, you're stubborn.

And how the f do you know that Cap know think of thor as God? Are you seriously that stupid?

That was a definite evident that shows someone can think of them not as gods, and your rebuttal is "Nah, I don't think so."???

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And how the f do you know that Cap know think of thor as God? Are you seriously that stupid?


This is a completely ungrammatical and incoherent sentence. I have no idea what question you're actually asking. Are YOU seriously that stupid? Your sloppy writing is indicative of your sloppy thinking.

It's clear you're simply responding as fast as you can to my posts without taking the time to actually understand what I said. You need to slow down and think clearly. I did not say that when Thor showed up in the plane to grab Loki that it was the first time that Captain America heard about Thor. I said it was the first time Captain America *saw* Thor. I don't know whether or not Captain America had been briefed about Asgardians prior to that point and neither do you because the movie doesn't show him being briefed about Asgardians or mention that he was.

As far as Thor being a god, you continue to completely ignore what I explained to you about Gorr. I also explained to you that Captain America's line in The Avengers about there being only one god only proves that he didn't yet accept that Thor was a god. As a 20th Century American he wasn't immediately inclined to believe in the existence of a polytheistic god of limited power. His further interaction with Thor and other supernatural elements in the MCU changed that. That line about there being only one god was at best limited evidence of Captain America's religious viewpoint *at the beginning of The Avengers* and nothing more. That line coming from that character at that point in the movie at that point in the MCU doesn't come anywhere close to proving what you think it does. It's merely an illustration of how much Captain America did NOT know about the realities of the universe in the MCU at that point in time.

The point is that Captain America never made a single expression of religious faith again at any later point in the MCU. In light of everything he saw and experienced, such expressions of religious faith would have at best felt very awkward. For him to make any expression of religious faith at any later point in the MCU *without at least making a thorough explanation of the justification for continued faith* would look completely ridiculous. The fact that no one in the MCU expressed any faith in monotheism after that point prior to the Ms. Marvel show speaks enormous volumes.

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That's called a typo, asshole. When someone can't win an argument, they start attacking something else; you know that?

And what the hell does the fact that he SAW thor the first time do anything with his belief? He already knows the guy exists.

I don't know whether or not Captain America had been briefed about Asgardians prior to that point and neither do you because the movie doesn't show him being briefed about Asgardians or mention that he was.


That's called common sense, idiot. Is he going to escort somebody without being briefed? Are you really that dense? The fact that the black widow already knew it is evident.

Again, how is that the first time he saw him affect his belief? It's the other way around, asshole. You put somebody you never met on pedestal, but instead getting let down by the real thing.

How is Roger see someone flying around with a combination of magic and technology suddenly making him think "Oh, I was wrong, You're a God, please bless me." Roger was not as stupid and as gullible as you.

Captain America never made a single expression of religious faith again at any later point in the MCU.


And he never made one before, you idiot. There is a whole movie about him before Avengers, ever saw him go to church?

The fact that no one in the MCU expressed any faith in monotheism after that point prior to the Ms. Marvel show speaks enormous volumes.


And on which previous Marvel movie did you see our main characters go to midnight mass? You're making correlation out of shits you pull out of your ass. The only way to prove your point is by pointing out human beings worshiping Thor as gods, which doesn't exist in MCU. Now you're trying to make a point by saying, "if nobody is saying otherwise, then the opposite is true", a mega idiot.

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You have an enormous amount of completely unearned arrogance and obnoxiousness. You’re not nearly as smart as you think you are and I’m not nearly as dumb as you think I am. I only asked you if you’re really stupid *in response to you asking the same question of me*! And that was a day after you said "fuck you" to me. *YOU* started the insults and I merely responded. *YOU’RE* the one who started with personal attacks so if your claim that someone attacks something else when they can’t win an argument is true then that means *YOU ALREADY LOST THE ARGUMENT* before I even had a chance to lose it. Do YOU know that?

And I pointed out your ungrammatical question because it’s called *PROOF READING*, you actual asshole. Why can’t you proof read your responses to me before posting them? I’m pointing out your incoherent question because I *DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT MEANS*. How am I supposed to answer your question if I *DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT MEANS*? I can neither win nor lose an argument if I don’t even understand a question you ask because it's completely incoherent. *Coherent language* is the very basis of successful written communication. And you still have not provided a coherent version of that question so I still can’t answer it.

Your question about why I brought up when Captain America saw Thor for the first time is a perfect example of you simply not following the conversation. PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION. I pointed out that the plane scene would at most prove that Rogers did not personally believe at that time that Thor was a god. You responded by asking how I knew that was the first time he heard of Thor, which I clearly did not assert. I responded to your false characterization of what I said by explaining to you that I actually said it was the first time Rogers *saw* Thor. That is the relevance of me pointing that out. I was pointing out YOUR mistake about what I said. A mistake you wouldn’t have made if you SLOWED DOWN and PAYED CAREFUL ATTENTION to what I’m actually saying. And regardless of whether Rogers already knew that Thor existed, what he said after seeing Thor for the first time would at most prove what his religious beliefs were prior to that moment.

It's not "common sense" that Rogers was briefed about Asgardians, you actual idiot. The fact that you think the plane scene proves that he was just proves that you didn’t actually pay attention to what happened in the scene. The movie shows him being briefed about the Tesseract and the Hulk but not Asgardians. You wrongly assume that Nick Fury believed it was necessary for Rogers to be briefed on Asgardians before the mission. You need to remember that no one at Shield knew *before the mission* that Rogers was going to be escorting any prisoners anywhere. He only happened to escort Loki on the plane during his first night in action because Loki *purposely allowed himself to be captured*. He didn’t need to be briefed on Asgardians in order to escort an already captured prisoner.

The fact that Black Widow already knew about Asgardians prior to that scene proves the opposite of what you think it does. Black Widow had already been working for Shield for several years prior to the events of this movie. She was already involved with Shield at the time Thor first came to Earth. That is the reason she already knew more by that point about Asgardians than Rogers did. And if Rogers had already been briefed about Asgardians *prior to that point* then why did Natasha *HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO ROGERS WHO THOR WAS* prior to him jumping out of the plane? CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT TO ME, GENIUS? Are *YOU* really that dense? See how little common sense you actually have? Rogers seeing Thor fly into and out of the plane didn’t make him suddenly think that Thor was a god and I never claimed that it did. The idea that Thor was a god was first explained to him by Natasha after Thor left the plane.

You don’t always put someone on a pedestal and then get let down, actual asshole. Sometimes it’s the opposite. Sometimes you don’t think much of someone and then put them on a pedestal once you get to know them better because they impress you. This is a perfect example of that. Besides never denying that Thor was a god after that point, Rogers also never downgraded Thor’s abilities as a superhero. Rogers learned that Thor carried around a hammer that no one else was even capable of picking up off the ground. Rogers himself tried and completely failed to do it in Avengers: Age of Ultron. Surely this isn’t your idea of putting someone on a pedestal and then getting let down by the real thing.

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I’m well aware that Rogers never made a single expression of religious faith prior to seeing Thor for the first time, you actual idiot. I’ve seen Captain America: The First Avenger and know he’s never shown going to church. But that movie never had a reason to show him going to church or expressing religious faith. What the MCU shows us of Captain America prior to The Avengers is irrelevant to this issue. All that matters is what it shows after he meets Thor. He didn’t even know before then that there was any life on other planets. Thor repeatedly referred to himself as the God of Thunder and Rogers NEVER denied that he was at any future point in the MCU and yet you ridiculously just assumed that he secretly believed Thor wasn’t an actual god. Why would he secretly do that? What sense does that make, you actual idiot?

It’s NOT a matter of humans "worshipping" gods, you actual idiot. Gods are not gods because people "worship" them. Gods are gods because of their *innate supernatural powers*. It’s simply a matter of gods in the MCU showing their supernatural powers. I am NOT saying that any humans in the MCU are worshipping Thor and they don’t need to worship him in order to prove my point. I am merely saying that they *realize* that Thor is a god. Mere realization that someone is a god is NOT the same thing as worshipping that being as a god. It is a simple matter of humans seeing Thor’s powers and merely *realizing* the fact that he is a god. If these humans in the Avengers who work together with Thor to defeat supervillains and respect him as a member of their team really didn’t believe that Thor was a god then they would explicitly say so to his face. They don’t lie to each other about what they think of each other, you actual mega idiot.

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I'm really not gonna read all that. As I said, it's better if you put it point by point. Like this:

What the MCU shows us of Captain America prior to The Avengers is irrelevant to this issue. All that matters is what it shows after he meets Thor.


See this? This is you basically saying that you don't care about what MCU didn't show (Roger being a Christian), only what MCU didn't show after a point in time (Roger never scolding his friend for claiming to be a God [which is funny enough, he never actually proclaim to be a god])... Can you really not hear how stupid you are?

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Can YOU not really see how stupid YOU are? Because I explained your stupidity in great detail in my last response to you. Could you at least try reading all of it? If you're not even going to try reading all of it then HOW DO YOU EVEN KNOW TO BEGIN WITH THAT I’M ACTUALLY WRONG ABOUT ANYTHING AT ALL? Can't you see how stupid that is? If YOU'RE going to purposely ignore things that I say then perhaps *I* may purposely ignore things that you say.

Your biggest problem is that you make way too much out of Captain America's line about "there is only one god and he doesn't look like that." That's more of a line that sounds good in the movie than it's meant to be a definitive aspect of his character. It's meant to sound cool more that it's meant to prove any actual religiosity. That's the main reason he never made any expressions of religious faith before or after that point in the MCU. If it was so important to his character then the MCU would have referenced it at least one other time before or after.

That line wouldn't necessarily even prove that Rogers was Christian. It could instead prove that he was Jewish or Deist. And your assertion that he remained Christian after that point (if he ever actually was one) goes against ALL THE EVIDENCE provided by the MCU. If he didn't accept the fact that Thor was a god then how do you explain his knowledge that Thor is literally the only being Rogers has ever seen lift Mjolnir? Everyone at the big party in Avengers: Age of Ultron, including Rogers, tried to lift Mjolnir and no one other than Thor could do it. What was Rogers supposed to conclude other than that only Thor could lift Mjolnir because only Thor possessed the *godly power* that enabled him to do so?

And if Rogers remained a Christian then how do you explain his passive acceptance of Dr. Strange’s magic in Avengers: Endgame? If he were still a Christian then he would be forced to consider Dr. Strange a Satan worshipper. He would do something to try to stop Dr. Strange’s Satan worship. But he just passively accepts it because he’s not a Christian. Could a real Christian even accept the very existence of magic?

It's completely absurd for you to claim that Thor never proclaimed to be a god. Even the rest of the Avengers and Shield all acknowledged that he was a god by the end The Avengers. At later points in that movie both Tony Stark and Nick Fury explicitly referred to Thor as a god. Why would they refer to Thor as a god if he wasn’t doing so himself?

Hopefully, you actually read all that. And having read all of that, can YOU really not hear how stupid YOU are?

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It's been awhile since I've been on this site. Re-reading this thread was fun. You're an idiot.

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No, you're the idiot. You argued lazily and sloppily without taking the time to proof read anything you wrote. I explained in great detail why everything you said was wrong. If you still can't understand why you were wrong after re-reading everything I said then I guess there's just no hope for you.

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It's coming.

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You have no clue. This subhuman argued that he knew my emotions better than I do. I mean he actually debated this lol.

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LOL. You can't debate stupidity, we were wrong trying to do that.

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you're only expressing agreement with Sparky because you don't know who he is

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No, I agree with him because he has a functioning brain. I don't set a high standard for agreeing with people.

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How do you know he has a functioning brain? All because he agreed with you when you called me an idiot? Your logic is completely self-serving. Do you really believe that an enemy of your enemy is necessarily your friend? Do you even know why he called me a subhuman? You don't even realize what you're getting into.

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I lost sight of this bit of wisdom from Twain for a spell: "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

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That wisdom doesn't apply here. You're not an idiot. You're just extremely dishonest and bigoted.

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It's coming.

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you keep saying that and yet 'it' never arrives

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Well if you're impatient put your little hat on and hang out at universities.

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And that's 'it'? That's all 'it' is? We've faced worse. A whole lot worse.

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It's coming.

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'It' never arrived and 'it' never will arrive. You're going to be saying that until the day you die.

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Or the day you die lol

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And that's all 'it' is going to be?

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It's coming.

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saying that over and over again is just going to jinx 'it'

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LOL It's coming.

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No, 'it's' too late. You jinxed 'it'.

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It's coming.

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now 'it's' super jinxed

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It's coming.

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now 'it's' coming for you

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It's coming.

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...for you

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It's coming.

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Where'd you go dumbass?

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BTW check out Jake Shields and Jackson Hinkle on Twitter. Very revealing in regards to the subhumans.

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The only thing you need to know about this dumpster fire of a tv show is, it only caters to one person: the woman who wrote it. Nobody else is the audience, hence why it was a gigantic flop and forgotten quickly in the vast assembly line known as Disney+

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Are any Christian or Jewish characters in the MCU really Christian or Jewish?

Maybe the monotheistic religions in the MCU have adapted to the existence of of Gods, gods, or "gods", with godlike powers. Possibly some sects of various monotheistic religions have a different theology than in our universe, believing that there are lesser Gods, gods, or "gods" infinitely more powerful that mere mortals but infinitely inferior to the creator God of the universe.

That would allow members of those sects of monotheistic religions to believe that Thor, for example, was some sort of God, god, "god", demigod, angel, demon, etc., while still more or less believing that there is one all powerful creator God of the universe.

Whether those Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. would be considered true believers or heretics by theologians of those religions in our world is unknown.

I note that in our world there are examples of Christian sects which consider other Christian sects to be heretics and Muslim sects which consider other Muslim sects to be heretics.

But members of those sects who are considered heretics and false believers by other sects consider themselves to be true believers. So I don't know whether Kamala Khan and her family would be upset if Muslim theologians from our world called them heretics and disbelievers.

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You ask if any Christian or Jewish characters in the MCU are really Christian or Jewish but that very question assumes that there actually are any "Christian" or "Jewish" characters in the MCU. As far as viewers can see there are none. There isn't a single character in the MCU actually shown to be Christian or Jewish. There isn't a single character in the MCU actually shown observing Christianity or Judaism or shown expressing faith in Christianity or Judaism.

If the supposed monotheistic religions in the MCU "adapted" their beliefs to the existence of multiple gods then those supposedly monotheistic religions are no longer actually monotheistic. At that point they would be completely different religions. They would be polytheistic religions. If "Islam" in the MCU "adapted" its beliefs this way then it would no longer really be Islam and therefore Kamala Khan wouldn't actually be a real Muslim. But the Ms. Marvel show doesn't demonstrate that Islam in the MCU has been "adapted" in any way so there's no reason to believe that it's any different than Islam in our world.

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That begs the question, what makes a muslim a muslim.

You argue the point, as if she has to be a true pious literally believing every word of the scriptures type of muslim, to be a "real" muslim. You cannot even infer her disposition by seeing her doing any religous stuff. There is peer pressure and tradition. You do this, even if you are not a religious person. And even if she is "a believer", this does not mean, she would agree with every interpretation of things written, so people living 1600 years ago would understand it.

For this character, it is enough that her parents are muslims and she did not convert to another religion. People lacking in their religous zeal are not automatically unbelievers.

As of the "real" aspect, this is pure true scotsman fallacy. Are the so called cultural muslims or non-practicing muslims unreal muslims? Or do you lose your muslim status, if you do not activly deny the god-hood of some god-presenting entities? This would go for fictional gods as well, would it not? So actual real world muslims would lose their muslim status according to your logic, if they would not campain in front of theatres denouncing the gods depicted in those stories as false gods. (Actually some religous people do things like that)

It is rather simple. Exchange god for real god, wherever needed. So, the muslim god (wich actually is the abrahamic god, but this is another discussion) would be real god, and real muslims can call thor a god. And the definition for real god would entail no detectible interaction, because any entity doing that would be just a god, and not real god.

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It sounds like you're trying to confirm my claim that Kamala Khan's status as a Muslim is just a superficial identity. The central belief of Islam is that there are no gods but Allah. Islam rejects the very possibility of the existence of multiple gods. She fangirls the Avengers, which includes Thor the god of thunder. The refusal to accept someone's claim to be a god would seem to be a central demand of anyone who takes themselves seriously as a Muslim. Fangirling such a person would be that much more unthinkable for any serious Muslim.

This isn't a matter of agreeing with every interpretation of the Koran and hadith or of having religious zeal but of simply accepting Islam's most basic beliefs. Muslims don't believe that there could be both a "real God" and also another god that’s just "a god". They believe that there is only the one real god and any other gods can't possibly exist.

You have no basis for claiming that Kamala is just a "cultural" Muslim who observes Islam only because of peer pressure. She's shown going to mosque and engaging in religious rituals and there's nothing in the show that suggests she does any of that for a reason other than authentic religious belief. If only her parents really followed Islam then they would have a problem with her fangirling Thor but they don't because the show completely ignores the implications of what following Islam really means.

For that matter, Islam doesn't even allow Muslims to just be "cultural" Muslims. A Muslim giving up on Islam's central beliefs is considered apostasy in Islam, which Islam forbids. This is why even if just Kamala's parents believed in Islam then they would have an enormous problem with their daughter fangirling Thor. The No true Scotsman fallacy doesn't apply here because a Muslim is defined by their religious beliefs and Islam doesn't even accept the legitimacy of being just a "cultural" Muslim.

There's a clear gap between Kamala's Islam and her fangirling Thor. In order for the show to take her Islam seriously while she fangirls Thor it has to at least show her doing something to try to reconcile her religious faith with the existence of a literal god of thunder. Otherwise, her status as a Muslim is just a cheap label the show slaps on her rather than a serious, complex reality. Even if the show doesn't portray her struggling with her faith because of Thor then it should at least show her family or community doing so as a whole. But the show doesn't do that because her status as a Muslim is just an identity serving the purposes of political correctness.

This doesn't apply to real world Muslims who live in a world where movies are shown. Showing the MCU movies to audiences isn't based on the premise that the characters shown in those movies are real. There's no reason for Muslims in the real world to campaign against the depiction of fake gods done for purposes of entertainment. If Muslims had a real problem with such movies they would use outright violence to prevent them from being screened or from even being made.

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No. I am trying to tell you, that it is a fallacy.

If you are asking, if she is a muslim, the answer is clear. Are her parents muslims and did she convert? Yes and then no? She is a muslim.

By asking if she is a true muslim you shift the question into a fallacy. You try to make the defining quality of being a muslim to whatever your interpretation of what you think a muslim should do about the existence of people like Thor in a fictional setting like such a super hero infested place.

You reduce islam to that central belief about no other gods.That is the central belief of christianity and judaism as well. It is the actual defining quality of monotheistic religions. And the commandment does not read, there are no other gods, but not to worship them.

If islam expands this to denial, they try to weasel out of this, by calling them by other super natural names. So it seems to be a discussion about words and their meaning. Hence I suggest using the term true god.

"They believe that there is only the one real god and any other gods can't possibly exist."

Do you see the fault in your argument? You are saying there is only big Y, therefore small y cannot exist. The conclusion does not follow from that premise.

Whatever you say for muslims would hold true for christians/jews. It is a trivial statement for a monotheistic religion. Female christians fangirling over Thor would not be true christians either, according to your fundamentalist logic!

Oh, and real life muslims do ban movies or try to censor them, according to their interpretation of islam. Mostly because of lgbt stuff. Having other gods seems not as bad as this stuff, to be a true muslim to them. Thor Love and Thunder was banned in Malaysia. Not because of thor being a god and teaching muslim children that there are other gods, but because there is same sex stuff in it. I believe that illustrates quite well, what "true" muslims would do about a real life Thor: fangirling about him, as long as he is not gay.

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My argument is not a fallacy because a 'Muslim' is defined by their religious beliefs. And it's not a question of my own personal interpretation of Islam. I'm simply describing the core Islamic belief that unites all Muslims. Islam does in fact reject the very possibility of the existence of any other gods. I remind you that the Shahada of Islam is that "there is no god but God". So it's not just a question of Muslims "worshipping" other gods but of even recognizing their very existence. So the fault you see is in Islam's argument. I'm simply describing it.

Authentic Muslims living in the world of the MCU wouldn't be trying to "weasel" their way out of this issue in the way you describe. Thor explicitly calls himself a god so they can't pretend that he doesn't pose a direct challenge to their belief system. At the very least they would have to claim that Thor falsely presents himself as a god. They certainly wouldn't fangirl someone falsely presenting himself as a god.

You're certainly right that what I say about Muslims in the world of the MCU would be just as true for Christians and Jews in the same world. Pointing out that what I say about Islam in the MCU would apply just as much to Christianity and Judaism in the MCU doesn't prove anything. "Christians" fangirling Thor wouldn't be true Christians either. Either the beliefs of monotheistic religions actually mean something in the MCU or the religious labels slapped on characters in the MCU don't really mean anything.

The specific reasons that a Muslim country like Malaysia would ban a movie like Thor: Love and Thunder don't apply to the issue that I'm talking about. How Muslims in the real world deal with a movie whose subject matter is polytheistic gods is very different than how Muslims in the fictional world of the MCU would deal with the actual existence of polytheistic gods. The overriding concerns of Muslims in those 2 scenarios would be very different. Muslims in the fictional world of the MCU wouldn't have the luxury of writing off Thor as "just a movie character". They would have to actually deal with the reality of his existence and the dire implications that his existence posed for their religious beliefs.

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My argument is not a fallacy

It is a true scotsman.

Oh, and yes, I disagree with their interpretation about gods, but this can be remedied with simple word play. Just as they already do and what I called weaseling out. They made the word god have a specific meaning and call other beings that are called gods by other people demons, djin or whatever supernatural words. A replacement to have a discussion about god and thor can be to call god: true god, God with capital letter, and so on. I like the creator. The the is important to show that it is a singular entity/concept. Insisting to call god god and other one false god is rather pointless and childish. Also, thor in this fictional setting can claim to be a historical god. There is no denying that those asgardians were worshipped and being worshipped as gods is a rather strong proof that you can call yourself god. This does not even discuss the matter of divine, just the facts. Muslims cannot deny that there were and are concepts and even people/kings worshipped and called gods.

Anyways, so Thor would be god of thunder, but no claim was made that he is the creator and religious existential crisis can be avoided. This is in the end a language problem. It gets funny if you translate it into other languages.

Maybe there is not even an issue if you translate it into arabic. So the true god would be allah and thor would be a word-that-means-fake-god. I would bet that the do not say thor, the allah of thunder. It would be nonsensical to muslims.

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As I said before, my argument is not a No True Scotsman fallacy because Muslims are defined by their religious beliefs and my argument is based on Islamic religious beliefs. Thor is not a djin. Djins are generally invisible, can change their form and normally appear as snakes. Thor is never invisible and looks like a man. Thor is called the god of thunder rather than the djin of thunder because he is a god and not a djin. Djins don't control the weather. Djins can't create lightning or magically control the flight of a hammer. You can't take Islamic concepts like that of a djin and automatically apply it to a Norse god adapted into a comic book character.

Telling me that you disagree with Islam's interpretation about gods doesn't change that interpretation. You can't change what Muslims believe and what they believe would come in direct conflict with the existence of a being such as Thor. Thor explicitly calls himself a god and he has the power of lightning. He is the exact kind of polytheistic god that Islam sought to make people no longer believe in it so telling me that Thor could claim to be a historical god doesn't help you here.

Muslims surely don't deny that people used to believe in polytheistic gods because that was the norm in Arabia prior to Islam. But by definition, as Muslims they can't accept that any of those gods actually exist. Those gods weren't creators either so the fact that Thor isn't a creator doesn't change anything. Muslims simply do not accept the existence of any minor gods. They can't accept that there is a being other than Allah with the power of lightning. It would be silly for Muslims in the MCU to declare that a being with the power of lightning is a fake god. Therefore, Thor's very existence and powers would present a huge problem for the religious beliefs of Muslims in the MCU. Your word play wouldn't solve this problem. Islam wasn't meant to exist in a world where a being from another planet with the ability to create lightning could come to Earth and demonstrate his power.

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You could have used pious muslim. Fanatical, fundamental, bigoted, honest, faithful, devoted or other words, hypocritical. Using real makes it a fallacy.

1. No muslim girl would fangirl over Thor.
2. That girl over there fangirls over Thor, and I know she's a muslim.
3a. No real muslim girl would fangirl over Thor.
3b. No pious muslim girl would fangirl over Thor.
4a. That is a fallacy!
4b. That is just your opinion. I bet even grown up muslim women and several man will fangirl over Thor.

Though I am not sure, if it is strictly a true scotsman if you start by claiming 3a. Remember, fallacies are formal errors. You would have to prove that being a muslim would depend on the condition you provide. Only, the condition for being a real muslim is to be one. As trivial as it sounds. And that is because the word real has no information value in this context. We are not talking about real meat and substitute meat.

You might see it as an enhancement, like you could say, look, that is a real man, and point to a firefighter. But this does not mean that you have to be a firefighter to be a real man. Basically you are idolizing.

Just look at it from the opposite. What would a fake muslim be? Someone pretending to be one. And what would be the actual way of no longer being considered a "real" muslim? Fangirling over Thor? What you argue is her supposed strength in faith, her devotion and basically purity - and NOT her status as a real muslim. True scotsman is also called appeal to purity.

So you can argue all you want, that her fangirling would be a sin, but no matter how sound or unsound your arguments are, you are barking up the wrong tree. It does heal the fallacious nature of your premise.

But interesting how you think the existence of Thor would or rather should shake up the world. In one of the DC movies that was glimpsed at a little bit. It was one of the more recent Superman movies, where they shown tidbits that hinted at the religous implications.

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Since it is fiction, all this has to be speculation. But we humans are very good at arranging with inconvenient facts. It can be assumed that the fictional population has made such arrangements. It is not only muslims that would be shaken in their beliefs. Even atheists would.

And you do not even need a superhero "god" for that. The very fact of Aliens visiting the earth should do the trick. After all, there was no mention of them in the religious texts, was there? If we were made in gods image, who made those aliens. And if they have space travel, how can we be the pinacle of creation.

As for the fictional muslims, I guess it would be already be sufficient that Thor does not claim to be Allah. They do use that word, instead of "God", if you have not noticed. They do not say God is great, they say Allah is great. And if you are a fictional christian, well, that commandment read, you shall not have other gods beside/before me and distinctly not: other gods do not exist. Also, acknowledgement that gods exist is not the same as worshipping them. That would be the sin of idolatry. And while this surely lost in translation, in English, not having other gods before (God) would leave the loophole of having God first and worshipping minor gods secondary.

Edit: Oh, and just look at real world creationists or christian fundamentalists, that claim to believe that the earth is only like 6000 years old. And that with the fanatism of a flatearther. So if in the real world there are people actively ignoring historical facts, you can bet that you could shove a living god under the nose of a devout fictional religous person and they would find ways to rationalize their religious views. Like explaining away, that it is an alien. For that matter, you could shove actual God under their nose. Just look at what people did back then according to the real world bible with someone claming to be the son of God. Some followed him, some denied him, some nailed him to a cross.

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A big part of this issue is the authenticity of the Muslims in the MCU as a whole. I contend that their status as 'Muslims' is just a label that's lazily slapped on them. The Muslims of the MCU appear to just be going through the motions of being Muslim. Are any of the "Muslims" in the MCU real Muslims or just cheap cutouts for Disney to use for entertainment and propaganda?

For the reasons I already explained, my claim is not a fallacy because Muslims are defined by their religious beliefs. As Islam and Muslims define it, a real Muslim is a faithful Muslim. You're just trying to split hairs over language. If it weren't for the fact that Muslims consider non-faithful Muslims to be apostates and Islam forbade apostasy then I wouldn't stick so hard to this argument. But I can't help how Islam defines Muslims. So how can a "Muslim" who doesn't actually follow the religious beliefs of Islam really be a Muslim? What does it even mean for Kamala Khan to be "Muslim" if she has no faith?

What you say about Thor not claiming to be Allah just misconstrues Islamic beliefs, as I already explained. The Shahada of Islam is that "there is no god but God". Islam rejects the possibility of even the existence of minor gods. That's the whole idea of monotheism. So Thor's mere existence poses a problem for Islam even if Muslims don’t worship him. But Khan fangirls Thor and that comes too close to worship of him to not seriously undermine her authenticity as a Muslim.

Part of the problem is that Kamala Khan just goes through the motions of being a Muslim. She doesn't go through any kind of spiritual struggle. Mere knowledge of Thor's existence and powers but especially her choice to fangirl Thor would necessarily lead to some sort of spiritual struggle if she were a real Muslim. But at no point during the show does she actually think about what it really means to be a Muslim. Her "Islam" isn't a complex 3-dimensional reality but just a superficial label the show slaps on her.

You say that humans are good at dealing with inconvenient facts but the existence of a literal god of thunder is completely unprecedented in actual human history. You have no idea how real people in the real world would react if someone like Thor suddenly showed up on Earth. Some inconvenient facts are just too inconvenient for people to maintain their previous beliefs. The fact that this would be true for atheists in the MCU doesn't change anything that I said. The fact that aliens visiting Earth could cause religious people to lose their faith also doesn't change anything that I said. It's just further proof of my claim. But if we're supposed to take Khan's "Islam" seriously then the least Ms. Marvel owes the viewers is to show us how she, her family or her community actually deals with the inconvenient facts of the world in the MCU.

Your comparison of Muslims in the MCU to Young-Earth Creationist Christians doesn't work because it's a lot easier to ignore the pronouncements of scientists than to ignore a god of thunder whose power you see with your own eyes. The radioactive decay of carbon-14 isn't something you see with your own eyes in real time the same way you see a man create a lightning bolt or control the flight of a hammer flying through the air. The scientific conclusions derived from carbon dating are a lot easier to ignore than the powers of Thor. Another problem with your comparison is that we actually see how Young-Earth Creationist Christians maintain their beliefs. We see the struggle they go through to ignore the science disproving their beliefs. We don't see a similar struggle with Khan or any other Muslims in the MCU. The least Ms. Marvel owes the audience is to show that struggle with faith, if such a struggle even happens with Muslims in the MCU.

It's the show's complete absence of that struggle with faith that makes Kamala Khan's supposed "Islam" a total joke.

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"just a label"

Probably. Just like any other. If you want to show a thing/person has an attribute, you show a trait people associate with it.

"For the reasons I already explained, my claim is not a fallacy because Muslims are defined by their religious beliefs."

You make an argument of purity, and that is a fallacy.

"So how can a "Muslim" who doesn't actually follow the religious beliefs of Islam really be a Muslim? What does it even mean for Kamala Khan to be "Muslim" if she has no faith?"

Your premise is wrong, resulting in fallacious conclusions. You can look in the real world for countless examples of Muslims that would no longer be real Muslims according to "logic". She would still be as real as actual Muslims in the real world.

"So Thor's mere existence poses a problem for Islam even if Muslims don’t worship him."

No more or less than for all the other people. And muslims already have their dogma about other gods not really being gods. So it would be easier for them, not harder.

What would be a real problem for all the abrahamic religions, if those asgards came with proof, that the god of abraham were just some other asgardian or another alien.

"her choice to fangirl Thor would necessarily lead to some sort of spiritual struggle if she were a real Muslim"

Why would you have to be a muslim, real or not, to have a spiritual struggle. You think atheists could not have one? And if she has NO spiritual struggle, why would that indicate that she has NO faith?

"show us how she...deals with the inconvenient facts of the world"

Like aliens, near apocalypses, magic, superpowers, mutants? For them it is normal. Like it is for us to have wars happening. Life goes on. It is boring to show. There is drama shows for that.

I liked how the superheros in Watchmen were involved in a war. Because wars would be a thing superhereos would be involved somehow. As supersoldiers or to end them, because they are heroes.

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"because it's a lot easier to ignore the pronouncements of scientists than to ignore a god of thunder whose power you see with your own eyes"

They have mutants and other super beings appearing on a daily basis. Some of them claiming to be "a god" is just added flavor to the stuff happening there. Also while maybe not known to the general public, but he did say it is technology. Tech so advanced, that it is magic to us.

I would be more worried about that Dr. Strange doing actual magic without tech. Or all those alien attacks. At least the god person looks like a human, even if he says he is an alien wizard of lightning that visited earth a while ago and impressed the locals.

Also, it is a bit cherry picking to demand to see such struggles shown from Kamala, but not from everyone else, be it hero, supernatural hero or normal person. We see lots of struggles in the mcu when half the population disappeared.

You can expect something like that in deconstructions of the superhero tropes, but ordinary superhero stories, and they are around for like hundred years, just do not do this. It is like demanding to see people go to the toilet or deal with any other mundane thing. And this particular thing would be the life shattering, existential crisis, suicide rate increasing, the end is nigh (several times actually inuniverse) and so on, because of all the things happening in that world.

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You claim that I'm "probably" right about the status of the "Muslims" in the MCU as Muslims being "just a label". When I say it's just a label I'm saying that their Islam is inauthentic. That's my whole argument. Are you sure I'm "probably" right about the characterization of the Muslims in the MCU being just a label? That’s exactly what we’ve been debating this whole time.

Your argument is wrong for at least 1 of 3 reasons. Even if you ignore the fact that Islam itself consider non-faithful Muslims to be apostates and Islam forbids apostasy, your claim that my argument is a fallacy is wrong for the reasons I've already explained. A "Muslim" is a follower of Islam, a religion. A "Muslim" is defined by their religious beliefs. The word "Muslim" means "one who surrenders to God". The very concept of a Muslim being "just a cultural Muslim" has never been recognized by Islam. By claiming my argument is a fallacy you appear to be making up your own wrong definition of "Muslim". Because of what "Muslim" actually means, my appeal to purity isn't really a fallacy. The purity of their faith is arguably the defining characteristic that makes a Muslim really a Muslim instead of a non-Muslim.

But on top of all that, your argument against my appeal to purity fails because the Ms. Marvel show itself goes out of its way to prove, at least in its view, that Kamala Khan passes the purity test of Islam. The show itself grants the legitimacy of my argument. She's shown going to mosque and engaging in religious rituals. The show presents her as a fully faithful Muslim. Thus, the show doesn't actually challenge my definition of a "Muslim" to begin with. Which means that your claim about the logical validity of my appeal to purity simply doesn't apply.

Thor's mere existence clearly poses a problem for certain people that it wouldn't pose for others. It poses a clear problem for all monotheists that it certainly wouldn't pose for polytheists who already believe in Thor or for agnostics. Surely you don't really challenge the premise that whether Thor's existence poses a challenge to anyone's religious beliefs entirely depends on what those religious beliefs actually are.

Muslim dogma concerning other gods doesn't do anything to help Muslims here. Islam rejects the very existence of other gods. That means it rejects the very possibility of anyone other than Allah himself having the ability to create lightning. You tried claiming that Thor could be considered a djin by the MCU's Muslims but I explained why he clearly didn't meet the qualifications for a djin. The authentic existence of a being like Thor is completely unprecedented in Muslim experiences and beliefs. Thor doesn't fit within any category of beings whose existence is even recognized by Islam.

Thus, his mere existence would pose an undeniable problem to the religious beliefs of the MCU's Muslims. This is what makes Kamala Khan's continued religious faith without any spiritual struggle a total joke. This is what makes her "religious faith" portrayed on the show just a meaningless exercise. It's her effectively just going through the motions of being a Muslim. This problem goes double for her because she goes out of the way to center her life around Thor by fangirling the Avengers.

You can tell me that Thor’s existence poses the same problem to other monotheistic religions and I don't dispute that but Islam is the only monotheistic religion actually shown being observed in the MCU and that's why I have brought up this issue as it relates to Islam. I fully acknowledge that Thor's existence could lead to a spiritual struggle for many if not most of the people on the MCU's version of Earth, including atheists. But that's not an issue because nowhere in the MCU after Thor's existence became public knowledge on Earth are any atheists shown clinging to their atheism. It's not cherry picking to make an issue out of Kamala Khan's lack of spiritual struggle being shown because she's the only character in the MCU specifically shown to be religious.

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Since Thor is a god, and due to all the other issues you brought up which I discuss in my next paragraph, that would necessarily challenge Kamala Khan's Islamic beliefs. So, at the absolute minimum, the only way for her to maintain her beliefs is to go through some sort of spiritual struggle. Without such a struggle there's no real indication that she actually believes in Islam. I'm not saying that such a struggle automatically guarantees the maintenance of her Muslim beliefs. I'm saying that if she does maintain her beliefs then that struggle is the absolute minimum required to maintain them. It's easy for a Muslim in the MCU to give the outward appearance that they're a fully faithful Muslim but that appearance is clearly superficial. The lack of a spiritual struggle would indicate a lack of genuine faith because Thor's existence and powers challenges the beliefs of Islam. Since Kamala fangirls Thor without any spiritual struggle that must mean that she no longer believes in Allah or that she believes there are 1 or more gods in addition to Allah.

Pointing to aliens, near apocalypses, magic, superpowers and mutants in the MCU doesn't help your case. It only strengthens mine. These are all things that would challenge the religious beliefs of all the people in the MCU. Perhaps some of the things became normal over the course of time as people became used to them but that doesn't change the fact that those things completely changed their understanding of what was real and what was possible. Therefore, adjusting to these new realities required them to give up on their previously held beliefs or to go through intense spiritual struggle to maintain them.

Pointing out that mutants and other super beings appear on a daily basis also doesn't help your case. It helps mine. The appearances of such creatures would only help to weaken the religious beliefs of people on Earth. Adding a god to that mix would just further weaken religious beliefs. That's especially true for Thor since he didn't come from Earth and no Earthlings know where his powers come from.

I disagree that it would necessarily be boring to show how Kamala, her family or her community integrates the inconvenient facts of the world in the MCU with the Muslim faith. They might be able to do it in a way that's very compelling to the viewer and that would make for good TV. But in order for her continued Muslim faith to really mean anything the difficult process of integration has to be shown. Without that visible spiritual struggle being shown her continued Muslim faith is meaningless. Even if Ms. Marvel doesn't show it then it should at least be mentioned on the show to indicate to the viewer that it happened. The least the show owes the viewers is to let them know somehow that such a spiritual struggle took place. Without even an indication that this struggle already took place her continued outward adherence to Islam portrayed in the show is meaningless.

I don't know why you would claim that Thor's powers derive from technology. Asgard has a lot of its own special technology but Thor has his own innate powers that are clearly not technological. They're godly powers. That's the reason Thor is the only one shown at the party in Avengers: Age of Ultron who can lift Mjolnir. And Thor's status as a god is the only reason Gorr in Thor: Love and Thunder sought to kill him. Gods are a clearly defined category in the MCU.

It's not a question of "worrying" about the relative threat posed by Thor compared to that posed by Dr. Strange. It's a matter of the implications of their powers for the basic nature of the universe and consequently for the religious beliefs of monotheists.

Ordinary superhero stories generally don't show such spiritual struggles but ordinary superhero heroes generally completely avoid religion altogether. Ms. Marvel makes religion a central aspect of its main character but given the circumstances of the world in the MCU in general and of the main character in particular the authenticity of her religious is doubtful. So even if such a spiritual struggle isn't expected for an otherwise ordinary superhero story, it nevertheless is necessary in this particular story in order for the main character's professed religiosity to really mean anything. Because the show makes an issue out of religion in the circumstances in which it takes place, the lack of a spiritual struggle being shown or even referenced in Ms. Marvel is a problem of its own creation.

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