Actually, even though I can totally relate to the frustration that genius11226 is expressing here, I have to say that the point about the looks is slightly off. Women DO have to worry about their looks. In fact that's about the only thing they do have to worry about since men's model for attraction is different than a woman's. Men are hired-wired to screen women for replication value and so they tend to judge them almost exclusively by their looks. Women on the other hand look for survival value and so judge men by their status more than anything else. That's why Mystery's techniques work so well.
An unattractive girl will be just as 'unsucessful' as an unattractive guy.
That's actually not true. Even the most unattractive girl can still get laid. Roald Dahl once wrote, "The female, on the whole, can do without sex. The male can't." That's why you'll never see a Pick-up Artist tv show for women. Because even if women were as sex obsessed as men, they just wouldn't need the help getting laid. What you're talking about is getting with the *specific* person you're interested in, which is a completely different category of problem. Mystery is just helping these guys get A woman. I mean one of those guys was a 28 year old virgin for christ's sake. Surely you can see the difference.
Are you trying to say that men will talk to anything with a vagina, regardless of how it looks?
There are plenty of men out there who ARE like that. It depends on how desperate they are. But what you're proving with that question is that women would NEVER be that desperate, and so you're proving my point for me.
but for you to say we never talk to guys we think are hot are wrong. its just as hard for us to talk to guys as it is for guys to talk to women.
Absolutely and utterly wrong! I think some of you women weren't paying attention to the show. Did you not notice the blow-outs where some of the guys were told to "Shut the f|uck up!" or were told "I'm bored with this!" and the girl walked off right in the middle of a conversation. Or when the guy was talking about the 'awesome' weather the girl was like "Uh, that's not awesome!" and totally embarassed him. And when he was in the middle of talking and she said "Is there a point to this story?". Tell me any of you have EVER had to deal with a rejection as hard as that and I'll concede that it's just as hard for women. If not then you need to revise your opinions, because women can be damn rude in these clubs. Is it any wonder that guys develop approach anxiety to the extent that they need coaching? And then you criticise them for it? Come on!
The attractive women in these clubs get used to people treating them differently because of their looks and realise that they can get away with bad behaviour. But that's no excuse. If anything they deserve to be treated just as harshly, but instead the men find a way to accommodate their behaviour and still win them over. The men go to ridiculous lengths to adhere to a woman's model of attraction and the women STILL complain. We can't win. Well, how do you think we should go about it then? Oh, wait, I remember...
if they are themselves, treat women like they treat their friends and don't listen to Mystery's School of Crap Methods
If I were to 'be myself' and talk to women the way I talk to my friends I think they would be running for the door quicker than you can say DLV. I talk to my friends in the most profane way, with 'insults' flying left, right, and centre. Anyone listening might think we were the bitterest enemies, but that's how men talk. They tease each other mercilessly, and not in the playful way that Mystery endorses either. Then there's the toilet humour and dirty jokes. D'you know many women who dig that sh!t from a stranger? And what about topics of conversation? I talk to my friends about violent action movies and video games. Mystery suggests talking about relationships. Which do you think will appeal more to women? Which would YOU rather hear from a guy approaching you in a club? I'm afraid your advice is way off.
I think what you're trying to say is you want the interaction to *feel* natural, and not like a rehearsed performance. And the men who make it feel natural to you are most likely 'being themselves'. This is probably true of a small minority of natural players. But most advanced PUAs like Mystery do eventually reach a stage of unconscious competence where it comes across natural. You have to remember that his methods are just training wheels and the guys on the show were just beginners so obviously it's going to look awkward and unnatural. Eventually they would swap out his routines for stories which relfect their OWN personality. But apparently you're not prepared to allow them to go through the early stages to get a feel for what works and what doesn't. That's pretty narrow minded.
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doginthefog
15 years ago
I dont know if honeybee watched the whole show or what, but as you saw later on that learning "game" isn't just about picking up girls, its about building a better life.
Different PUAs have different goals and different morals. Some I respect and some I dont but thats always going to happen with just about anything. There's some guys who just want to sleep with girls and some guys who just want to find a good girlfriend whether they are a pickup artist or not. Even most girls I talk to, they want to go approach a hot guy at the club or whatever, and they have no idea how to do it or what to say. They're also worried about being rejected and fear the approach Its the exact same for guys. So what's wrong with learning some game so you can actually approach people that you want to talk to.
Even when people use fake/canned lines, its so that they have a chance to actually get to know the girl and the girl can get to know the guy. If the guy just came out and started using standard everyday lines ( hey whats ur name, hows it going, where are you from), you probably know how fast girls get bored and walk away. They dont want to feel like they are in an interview with a random stranger unless the guy is actually really good looking then maybe he has a shot. But for the average or lesser than average looking guy, he still has hope with girls if he's able to learn some game and he's learning game often not just to sleep with a girl the same night he meets her, but to build a possible meaningful relationship.
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HoneyBee21
15 years ago
I agree that some of these men have different morals and goals.
And when you put it in the perspective of a woman wanting to approach a guy she is really attracted to, it makes me understand you a little better. Still, I see no need for "game." This fear of rejection, or shyness comes from inside of you- I don't know exactly where, or how it comes to you, but I do know that it has nothing to do with interacting with the opposite sex. It's not born from that. For example, that fear of rejection will not only apply when you're talking to a girl, but also when you're applying to college, for a new job, auditioning for something, etc. You see what I mean?
I don't know if it made sense, but a few days ago I wrote that these shy people with low self-esteem will never be successful with the opposite sex, because they're constantly going to be thinking about how they are not good enough, and through a self-fulfilling prophecy, they will ultimately become not good enough.
The only way you can get over it is to work it out yourself. No girl's attraction to you will fix it. Only the shy person can. I know this, because it has happened to me.
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super_nashwan
15 years ago
This fear of rejection, or shyness comes from inside of you- I don't know exactly where, or how it comes to you, but I do know that it has nothing to do with interacting with the opposite sex. It's not born from that.
The fear of rejection comes from the process of evolution. Approaching the wrong woman 40,000 years ago could mean the death of you. I won't go in to it, but our bodies respond to alert us of the danger. Of course, that danger no longer exists in modern times, but we haven't yet evolved to eliminate that circuit from our brains.
For example, that fear of rejection will not only apply when you're talking to a girl, but also when you're applying to college, for a new job, auditioning for something, etc. You see what I mean?
No. I don't see. I certainly don't get approach anxiety in any of those circumstances. Perhaps a mild apprehension at a job interview, but that's normal, and it feels normal. When I was at Uni I was perfectly comfortable doing presentations in front of hundreds of people. And anyone who's read 'The Game' knows that the character Extramask was a comedian. It takes about 10 times more balls to do that job. And yet he had great difficulty approaching women. I think you're generalising too much. Just because your own experience tells you that shyness is the only obstacle to social interaction you think men don't need to learn anything to approach women. I think you need to be more open minded.
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HoneyBee21
15 years ago
I still think that somehow the shyness of these men turned into "socially awkward" and it had absolutely nothing to do with talking to women. It came from somewhere else. These guys probably have been shy for years, long before they were horny men looking for some action. The women are just one of the things that makes them shy. They are "socially awkward" when it comes to other things as well.
I could say that these men should just get over their shyness, but I know it's not that easy, and that's why crazies like Mystery (sadly) exist. One of the main things that bother me is that Mystery uses women as a tool to help these men get over their fears. He makes men overthink the process of talking to a woman (negs, sets, pickup lines, kino, whatever), scaring them even more. Men don't need to overthink talking to a woman. If you're excuse is "well, I'm shy and afraid of rejection" then that's something that comes from somewhere else.
I know I'm just one example, but I am always shy around a guy, even if he comes up to me. And even when he's talking to me I'm thinking "what does he want? he can do better." The thing is, I'm learning how to block that, and not overthink it. I'm also scared of rejection, but what the hell are we supposed to do about that? It happens and it stings, and we must press on.
Also, in Mystery's methods, women are a prop to help men gain more confidence, and has anyone ever bothered to think what could happen to one of these women who fall for this stuff? I'm of the belief that the women who fall for this crap are mostly stupid, but sometimes a guy you were attracted to makes you interested in him, and little do you know that he's only doing it to get you to make out with him 15 minutes after he introduced himself to you. I'm sorry, but that is wrong. Still, I hope most women are smart enough to know when they're being led on like that.
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super_nashwan
15 years ago
I still think that somehow the shyness of these men turned into "socially awkward" and it had absolutely nothing to do with talking to women. It came from somewhere else. These guys probably have been shy for years, long before they were horny men looking for some action. The women are just one of the things that makes them shy. They are "socially awkward" when it comes to other things as well.
Look, I totally accept that there are men out there that have problems talking to women simply because they are shy. But what you seem to refuse to accept is that there are OTHER reasons men are unsuccessful with women. A big part of that is a lack of basic social skills geared towards interacting with women. Even an extroverted guy can totally fail with a woman if he's using the wrong approach. And some guys will never learn this stuff by themselves no matter how hard they try. They need someone to show them how. It's like any skill. Some people can teach themselves how to play the guitar because they have a natural affinity for it. Some people have to be taught. Mystery is just teaching these guys a skill set which they haven't been able to learn on their own.
He makes men overthink the process of talking to a woman (negs, sets, pickup lines, kino, whatever), scaring them even more.
Believe it or not, that stuff doesn't scare them, it gives them the confidence to approach, whereas otherwise they might never have done. You can't dismiss the psychological advantage that having a game plan can provide. In ANY situation. Imagine learning to drive without knowing the highway code and without having an instructor present. You would panic! Call it a placebo if you want but it gets guys approaching and that's not a bad thing.
but sometimes a guy you were attracted to makes you interested in him, and little do you know that he's only doing it to get you to make out with him 15 minutes after he introduced himself to you. I'm sorry, but that is wrong.
I agree that deceiving people for the sake of a make-out is not a good thing, but these techniques are not deceitful in and of themselves. There will always be guys who will deceive and use women, but that's not Mystery's fault.
I'm of the belief that the women who fall for this crap are mostly stupid,
You talk about women "falling for this crap" as if it's some kind of mind control or something. They're not "falling" for anything, they're *genuinely* attracted. The women aren't stupid, they aren't going to like a guy if there's nothing to like. The men showed that they could display attractive traits which women respond to. It's like saying a man could be tricked into being attracted by a woman's good looks. He IS attracted. You say that men should be themselves and act like they do around their friends. That's great but why would the woman want to get to know him if she's not attracted first?
Also, bear in mind that shows like this are perhaps 30 percent useful information and 70 percent exploitative entertainment. That's the nature of these kinds of shows. They exploit the contestants by showing all their most embarassing moments, and they exploit the women who unwittingly take part in the show. Everyone, save perhaps the producers, are exploited in some way, and it's all in the name of entertainment. Teaching guys pick-up in the real world would not be so politically incorrect - i.e. competing over women for medallions, and getting a 15 minute kiss close just to prove a point, etc. That's just stupid, no man would do that other than as part of a show. If a man's gonna go to the trouble of getting a kiss off a girl it's because he's interested in her. The show is controversial by design because it gets exactly the kind of reaction that you gave. And if it gets a reaction people will watch. It sucks, but that's tv. Don't judge pick-up overall by the format of this show.
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Arien_78
15 years ago
im sorry, but the only reason i got so upset is that the guy came out and personally attacked me, and i had done nothing but explain that he cannot go and simplify us women like that. and i do have a very hard time talking to guys i think are hot. i get butterflies in my stomach, and i end up saying something stupid and while i have not been told to shut the *beep* up outright, i have been ignored or out of the corner of my eye see them rolling their eyes at me like who am i to speak to them? anyway, all i was trying to show him that his onesidedness is wrong. and he was just wallowing in self pity and that is why he has such problems. who wants to hang with someone who has such a negative outlook? i sure dont want to and women are intuitive, and we can read you a mile away when you have such hangups like he does, it comes across. mystery teaches these guys to get rid of these hangups. while i dont agree with all the bashers, i agree with the above poster about how it is a show and a competition. it is because it is a show thats why it seems so stupid. but what he actually teaches them is valid. get them out of their anti-social behavior and get out in the world and mingle. whether its in a club or any kind of social gathering.
and again women do not have it easy. i do not agree with the person who said any woman can get laid. i have been single for 3 years already. when i was thin i had better chances. guys are visual, it is shoved into their faces that women should look a certain way. yeah an ugly thin girl might get laid, but get any extra padding, that goes away. i have gained a lot of weight, and since then, it has been hard to get ANY guy to look at me that way. i go out but im always seen as the "friend", just like a lot of these guys. so once again, women do not have it any easier than men do.
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Jester457
15 years ago
Arien women DO have it easier. If your a fairly good looking girl who's maybe a little shy you will probably get SOME attention. I've been out in a club and one time there were these two hot blondes who were dancing with each other. About 4-5 guys asked them to dance and got turned down and most of them were fairly good looking. Women don't get crushes as often as men do. Most men will zone out as soon as they lay eyes on an attractive girl. This rarely happens with women and is why women have been the ones who get chased and pick their mates. Unless a guy is a perfect 10 and by perfect 10 I mean a guy with the body with abs of steel with a face like Brad Pitt they aren't going to fall hard for them. As far as you being overweight well I don't know what to tell you. Most women can at least be an 8 out of 10 if they stay fit, grow thier hair long, dress sexy, and generally pay attention to thier appearance. I hate to tell you this but the reason why your not getting attention from the guys is because you didn't go out of your way to look sexy for them. When I go clubbing I try to look the best I can and I expect the same from the girls. If you took off the weight and paid attention to your looks then you wouldn't get ignored. Men do have it harder because we are the ones who do the approaching and because of that we can't just stand around and look hot and wait to get approached.
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super_nashwan
15 years ago
and again women do not have it easy. i do not agree with the person who said any woman can get laid. i have been single for 3 years already. when i was thin i had better chances. guys are visual, it is shoved into their faces that women should look a certain way. yeah an ugly thin girl might get laid, but get any extra padding, that goes away. i have gained a lot of weight, and since then, it has been hard to get ANY guy to look at me that way. i go out but im always seen as the "friend", just like a lot of these guys. so once again, women do not have it any easier than men do.
Well maybe I don't have the full picture. I've never been a woman so I'm only going on what I've experienced personally and what I've read about. Maybe not *any* woman can get laid, but I'd still maintain that they have less to fear in terms of social rejection. Since men don't get approached as often they've no need to develop a 'bitch shield', so most likely women will be let down easy.
But it may interest you to know that Neil Strauss is working on another book which focuses on pick-up for women as a complement to 'The Game'. I do rememeber him saying that women have it rough, or something to that effect. So whatever problems women face in this game, I'm sure it'll be documented there. I'll be getting it just to get the other perspective. I'd certainly be interested to know what women think of that when it's done.
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HoneyBee21
15 years ago
Wow, I'm sure Neil Strauss's female version of The Game will be read by women everywhere!
How To Pick Up a Man (by a man who has used Mystery tactics): Wear minimal amounts of clothing, be touchy feely and don't have any boundaries. If Neil Strauss is reading this, PLEASE don't write a book telling women how to pick up men. Just don't do it. How the hell does he know anything about what a woman wants, all he did was manipulate them to make himself feel like the man.
It's funny, the same thing I was getting yelled at a few posts ago, I must throw back. You guys must be living in a world where every woman is some Angelina Jolie sex goddess and can get any guy in seconds. You're so focused on overthinking how to talk to a woman that you have completely disregarded what goes through a woman's mind when she's attracted to a man. You're only thinking about yourself. You'd be surprised at how similar the train of thought is, so stop saying they have less to fear.
The girl that posted up there, she said she gets nervous around a hot guy, and she gets nervous about what they could be thinking about her (this happens to almost every female, by the way). Hello! she gets nervous the same way you all just said you get nervous. See? We're more alike than different, so why put all this pressure on yourself?
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super_nashwan
15 years ago
Wow, I'm sure Neil Strauss's female version of The Game will be read by women everywhere!
How To Pick Up a Man (by a man who has used Mystery tactics): Wear minimal amounts of clothing, be touchy feely and don't have any boundaries.
Well, that's very cynical of you. He's not basing it on Mystery's tactics, he's researching it obviously. WOMEN will tell him what women want, and no doubt women who are successful with men will tell him what works and what doesn't, as was the case when he wrote The Game, only in reverse. If you're not interested in what other women have to say simply because the information is being relayed by a man then that's pretty narrow minded, not to mention, sexist...
How the hell does he know anything about what a woman wants, all he did was manipulate them to make himself feel like the man.
You say 'manipulate', but how does he manipulate? Here's a dictionary definition of manipulate:
to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
What's unfair or insidious about what they do? You forget that it's still the women who decide yes or no at the end of the interaction. They still have all the power when you get right down to it. The PUA's just give women more reason to say yes. Why is that unfair?
I think Arien 78 deserves some credit for having the strength of character to at least see the good side in what Mystery and Style teach, regardless of how it may affect the status quo. Not many women will be as open minded.
It's funny, the same thing I was getting yelled at a few posts ago, I must throw back. You guys must be living in a world where every woman is some Angelina Jolie sex goddess and can get any guy in seconds. You're so focused on overthinking how to talk to a woman that you have completely disregarded what goes through a woman's mind when she's attracted to a man. You're only thinking about yourself. You'd be surprised at how similar the train of thought is, so stop saying they have less to fear.
For the record, I didn't yell at you. And I know that women can get nervous. If you say this is 'overthinking' the matter then why don't you suggest something better, rather than complaining? Not simply 'be yourself', or 'talk as you do with your friends' because that's really not helpful. Why don't you say what the best approach you've ever had was? Say something *specific* that the guy did. Something that other guys can repeat. If you can't then you'll undertand why your advice is not helpful to men.
We're more alike than different, so why put all this pressure on yourself?
Men don't put the pressure on themselves. It exists regardless because of the way society works. These techniques give men a way to deal with it. Men who don't learn these techniques will be free of pressure of course, because they will never approach...Is that what you'd prefer? That men who aren't naturally good with women should spend their entire lives alone? Or perhaps you think it works like in Hollywood movies where people just wait around until one day they simply bump into their soul-mate. Yeah, that's realistic...
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Arien_78
15 years ago
whoever told me i didnt dress sexy enough, well that just made me fall off the bed laughing. how does an overweight person dress sexy? its kinda hard. then you have guys thinking "omg she thinks shes supposed to attract attention?" please, most of my friends are guys and they talk about overweight women like kids at school. then they realize i am in that fix and they have to cover their asses and say things like "oh not you tho". whatever. and there is a link to what i look like here at the bottom, so you judge for yourself and see if im fairly ok. even so, that doesnt matter. I get shot down a LOT due to the fact that i am not a size zero and in hawaii well thats pretty much how the way it works here. ugly girls who are skinny can get laid....hey just dont look at her. but you can FEEL, and if you aint a size zero then too bad.
"i hate to tell you this but the reason why your not getting attention from the guys is because you didn't go out of your way to look sexy for them. When I go clubbing I try to look the best I can and I expect the same from the girls. If you took off the weight and paid attention to your looks then you wouldn't get ignored"...... it infuriates me that you are associating being overweight with being sloppy. i dress well and i always smell nice, and i know that i can look good in any hair color and i rock that. as usual a neanderthal with no feelings and cares only about himself would say something like that to me. and you think losing weight is easy.... just because those stupid infomercials tell you it is doesnt mean it is. and more so for women it is harder to get rid of it. i have been dieting and exercising for the last 3 months and lost 8 pounds.
cracks me up that you say women dont get crushes as much. hello i crush on a different guy everyday!!!! maybe even 10 of them all at once. why just today i saw a police officer that was so hot i swear i was drooling. and then i came home and watched some reality show and wished i was on it cuz the guy in it had my blood racing. and most of the time, what i think is hot, most people disagree and call the guy i crush on ugly. so please dont think that we do not crush as often as men.
and i did date a guy who looked like he swallowed a keg of beer. he literally could put 24 plus heinekins away in one night. no joke. he did that on my birthday in fact. i picked up every beer bottle he had and i counted them. so there you have it, that girls go for more than just looks. what made me like him was how great of a father he was to his kids. he wasnt that great looking to most people. but i didnt care. so dont tell me about only looking at men who look like brad pitt. like the other person said, women judge more than just looks. a sense of humor will get you everywhere.
and again i say men do not get approached as often cuz us women DONT HAVE BALLS. seriously. i just do not have any guts to get up and try to say something witty and hope that he might have the balls for both of us and hopefully saw that i have been staring at him and and will come and say hi.
and another thing. men have been trying to be the dominant half since the dawn of time. ostracising women from everything from voting to golfing. guys propose... well there are a few women who are doing it instead, but check the documentary on that... lol...and now they are complaining that they think we have the power? if i recall men have always been choosing the woman. yet now they think it is us who are choosing them. nope. it is still you choosing us. we go out, look nice, and hope that one of you will choose us. i would like to choose a guy myself, but i have tried it and have gotten shot down quite a bit.
while men dont really put ALL the pressure on themselves, they are responsible for some of it.
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HoneyBee21
15 years ago
You didn't yell at me, I know. Someone else did though, when I brought up the same thing. it wasn't you.
I guess no matter how many times I explain my point of view, you'll find a hole in it. And I just still don't see what's so useful and great about Mystery, and I also don't understand why men think they need these things he teaches. Pickup lines, negs, whatever...not necessary. If anything, they make men look like they don't want to get to know a woman, but they only want to talk to her so that the man himself can get some satisfaction. But this is just my opinion, I guess.
On this one, I gotta agree to disagree.
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super_nashwan
15 years ago
and I also don't understand why men think they need these things he teaches.
You ask why men need these things, well then I ask why women have to be bitchy in clubs. I already know the answer, but I think you haven't even considered the question.
Pickup lines, negs, whatever...not necessary. If anything, they make men look like they don't want to get to know a woman,
They DO want to get to know a woman. They just don't want to get told to f|uck off before they've had a chance to open their mouth. THAT is why men think they need the things he teaches. Maybe these things wouldn't be necessary for a man approaching *you*, but in that case you're in the minority. Women in clubs can be rude. I understand that it's because of the dynamic that exists in that environment that puts them constantly on the defensive. But many go out just to validate themselves by seeing how many approaches they'll get and getting a kick out of shooting guys down. Attractive women are in their element in clubs and they pretty much rule that environment, so if a guy wants a chance at 'getting to know her' he first has to get past the 'bitch shield' and show that he has attractive qualities.
As they showed in the first season, there is much less need for all that stuff during the day, because outside a club women are not so defensive, and so you're much less likely to get a negative reaction. This of course begs the question "Why go to clubs then?" Well, that just happens to be where you find large numbers of attractive, single women. If one girl blows you out, just walk 10 feet and there's another one. That's much less likely walking down the street.
You probably won't know that the second phase of the Mystery Method is the Comfort phase, because interestingly they didn't feature it on the show. This is the phase where a man DOES get to know the girl better. It comes after he's attracted her, and now tries to build rapport by discussing commonalities, but they didn't show any of that because it's not provocative enough, and as we all know that's not how TV works. Perhaps you would be less disparaging of his approach if they'd shown it in it's entirety.
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Jester457
15 years ago
Arien you obviously didn't read my entire post. It may be hard, but if you did lose the weight, and did pay more attention to the way you look, then probably would be getting attention. A lot of women that aren't attractive aren't attractive simply because they choose not to be. Women who generally pay attention to thier looks will get more attention. Now Arien as hard as it might be if you did take off the weight, dressed sexier, grew your hair out long then you might be getting some attention. If you want an easy way to get the weight off, just live off your own fat for a week. I used to be somewhat overweight and I lost about 2-3 inches on my stomach after not eating anything for about a week. And yes YOU may get crushes on a different guy every week but the 9s and 10s with supermodel bodies probably don't. They are used to being approached and unless the guy looks like Brad Pit with the body of Mike Tyson, they aren't going to zone out after seeing them.
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Arien_78
15 years ago
dont talk to me. you are STILL insulting me telling me i dont know how to be attractive. i dont pay atttention to the way i look? did you not read that i take plenty good care in the way i look? what the phuq does long hair have to do with anything???? OH MY GOD. are you insane?? dont eat??? youre so stupid. NOT eating makes you MORE fat. and the 9's and 10's? they dont have crushes all the time? how the hell do you know?
i cant believe you are here personally attacking me. i had no problem with you until your other post blatantly disrespecting me, and now even more so with your last post. i cant even talk anymore, you sound sexist and masochistic and more like a frickin dumbass the more you talk.
just zip your lip. i dont want to hear from you ever again.
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super_nashwan
15 years ago
Arien I think your problem is simply that you live in Hawaii. Going by your profile pic you should have no problem pulling as you seem quite attractive (don't get a big head :P). But if you're living in a place where everyone is going round in bikinis and straw skirts then obviously the emphasis will be on figure and body. In a colder part of the world I'm sure you'd have no trouble.
NOTE: My entire knowledge of Hawaii comes from watching Magnum P.I. so I might be off on the details.:P
Faceless Assassin, I think you're points are generally right, but I don't think it's wise to suggest losing weight by starving yourself. That's a dangerous method. If you managed it you were pretty lucky, but in general if you do that your body thinks you're starving and it tries to retain all the fat it can, and then when you start eating again you get fatter than you were before. The universally accepted method is to burn more calories than you consume whilst still eating healthily. So basically, eat less junk, eat smaller portions and exercise more.
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Arien_78
15 years ago
thanks super nashwan. and no that doesnt give me a big head lol... i have been doing that.i eat right and i excercise all the time, unfortunately there are things in my life and body that prohibit the weight loss. stress, medication. but we dont run around in grass skirts!! LOL. i think its funny that people out there still think we do that. and im sorry but for that person to say what he said just made me see red. what ridiculous nonsense!
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super_nashwan
15 years ago
What?! So the King Kamehameha Club was a lie?! My whole world just came tumbling down!! LOL
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15 years ago
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HoneyBee21
15 years ago
"Oh and if you want me to be honest if you approached me I wouldn't give you the time of day, sorry if that sounds harsh but I wouldn't want to encourage you."
WOW. Just...wow. I cannot even believe what I'm seeing here! YOU don't want to talk to her because you don't think she's attractive. You say you do this because you don't want to "encourage" her...
...But when a woman does this, she's putting up a "bitch shield" or whatever the hell you called it earlier. Isn't that a little one-sided and hypocritical? The truth is, you just said it yourself: You're not interested. There's no such thing as a bitch shield, you're just not interested in her and would rather not talk to her. Women do the SAME thing, it's not a feckin' bitch shield.
If anything, it's nice to know that guys do the same thing. Too bad they're in some sort of denial about it, and think when they ignore a woman, it's okay (because they don't want to "encourage"), but when a woman ignores a guy, it means she's a b itch. Newsflash: It means she's not interested, so don't talk to her. At all. She's not a bitch, she just doesn't like you. Deal with it and move on. No Mystery tactic will help you, either.
To the girl up there, pay no mind. Someone is perfect for you, and you're going to be perfect for him too.
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super_nashwan
15 years ago
Uh, wait, maybe I miscommunicated something before. I never said women in clubs are bitches. I said they *act* bitchy to screen out all the loveable losers. It's just a quick way to get rid of unwanted attention. That's very different to attacking someone on a personal level. I don't condone that, and like you said, guys can do it just the same as women. But *most* people don't do that (including all the guys and girls in clubs).
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HoneyBee21
15 years ago
Well, I was referring to the other poster who earlier had tried to explain his theory of the "bitch shield."
But a woman anywhere (not just a club) does not act "bitchy" to screen out 'lovable losers.' What is bitchy to you? She walks away from you, she avoids you? That isn't bitchy, or a "bitch shield." That means she is not interested in you, in what you look like or in what you have to say. It isn't bitchy. In the words of Faceless Assassin, she just doesn't want to "encourage" you. (Of course, when a guy does it, it's not that he's an ass or has a "bitch shield," he just doesn't want to lead the woman on. Double standard in action)
Bitchy means she insults you to your face and says something critical and hurtful on purpose, and I've never seen a woman do that to a man in public before, because that is rude. A woman knows that if she does that in a public place, she'll be hated by ever other man in the place, and she will ultimately be screwed when she sees a guy that she does like, because he's going to think that she's a woman with a bad attitude.
But I love how some men (mainly those who subscribe to Mystery's crap tactics) justify their rejection by saying, "She didn't even talk to me, she's a bitch." No, man. Just because she didn't talk to you, it doesn't mean she's a bitch. It means she didn't like you! It's not a thing done to "screen out" the losers. Where do you guys get this from?
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super_nashwan
15 years ago
What is bitchy to you?
Well I've had a girl give me the finger after just asking her a question. Does that count? If you asked a stranger in the street for directions and they gave you the finger would that be acceptable behaviour? Different rules apply in clubs. People act differently to the way they normally would and that's why these tactics exist. There's plenty of non-rude ways to blow a guy off. You mentioned some yourself. Those aren't bitchy, but some women definitely DO act bitchy. You're kidding yourself if you think this doesn't happen.
As for Mystery's 'tactics', most of these are things that many men do instinctively anyway. Mystery just gave them a name and organised them into a structured, repeatable method. I mean let's say we take your advice of acting like you would around your friends. We could call that the 'HoneyBee Friend Approach'. Now suddenly it's a 'tactic'! *gasp* Now suddenly it's open to criticism like so many others. Does it mean that it's invalid because the idea originated with you and not the person using it? Does it mean that it's not natural, or could never become a natural response simply because it was learned systematically? You're applying a negative stigma to something which is simply social skills.
It's not a thing done to "screen out" the losers. Where do you guys get this from?
He got that from his numerous girlfriends. They complained that they would get approached several times a day. In a club it could be 8-10 times a night. EVERY time. And every time it's the same thing: "Hi, what's your name?" "Hi, can I buy you a drink?" "Hi, how are you?" etc. Now imagine that over a period of several years...If you approach a girl like that you're just the 'next guy'. They got good at blowing them off to stave off the 'barrage of bore' as he puts it. PUAs say something different so that they won't immediately get categorised as one of those guys, and that buys them a couple of minutes. It's like an audition. Then they have to show that they have value or they'll still get blown out.
In fact many of his tactics came from observing women. The "Oh you're losing me..." line was one he first heard from a woman. Now he uses it.
I don't see why you're so down on his methods. Some random poster acts boorish in here and you use that as justification to put down the method and everyone who uses it. Not every man has the same outlook you know.
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HoneyBee21
15 years ago
If a girl gave you the finger after you asked her a simple question, then she's a bitch. That's rude and uncalled for. I would never do that, unless the guy said something totally chauvinistic and disgusting.
Saturday night I was having a talk on the street with my friend after leaving our favorite hangout, and about three guys stopped and just started trying to talk to us. One of them didn't even say "Hello," he just said "Where's your boyfriend?" I wonder if he thought I was a bitch when I completely ignored him, and when my friend said, "Excuse me, but we're having a conversation and you're interrupting us." That doesn't mean we're bitchy, it means this guy was rude, and we didn't want to talk to him because we were talking amongst ourselves.
Apparently this "bitch shield" theory has some meaning to some people, so I won't ever convince anyone otherwise. What pisses me off is men thinking that a woman's lack of interest means she's put up this "bitch shield," but when a man (like a previous poster here) lacks interest in a woman that has approached him, it doesn't mean **he's** put up a "bitch shield," but he's instead ignoring her to avoid "encouraging" her. It's the same damn thing, vagina or penis: Lack of interest, non-attraction. Don't give it a name to make yourself feel better. When it comes to the rules of attraction, we're all more alike than different. For some reason, men have a hard time believing this, and feel like they need someone like Mystery to help them overcome their whatever. Then there's the true *beep* who every time they open their mouth to say something to a woman, it reeks of I'm-only-talking-to-you-so-you-will-sleep-with-me.
To guys everyone, be on the lookout for my book, it's going to be called the HoneyBee Friend Method: How to Gain A Woman's Respect and Attraction (lol). Suck it Neil Strauss, suck it Mystery!
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super_nashwan
15 years ago
Saturday night I was having a talk on the street with my friend after leaving our favorite hangout, and about three guys stopped and just started trying to talk to us. One of them didn't even say "Hello," he just said "Where's your boyfriend?" I wonder if he thought I was a bitch when I completely ignored him, and when my friend said, "Excuse me, but we're having a conversation and you're interrupting us." That doesn't mean we're bitchy, it means this guy was rude, and we didn't want to talk to him because we were talking amongst ourselves.
Exactly. I couldn't agree more. You weren't being bitchy. That is a perfectly acceptable way to turn them down. And, yes, the guy was rude. I hope you don't think their approach had anything to do with Mystery's stuff.
What you have to realise is that not all women get approached often enough to develop an extreme negative response, so it's not always a factor. But sometimes it definitely is.
when a man (like a previous poster here) lacks interest in a woman that has approached him, it doesn't mean **he's** put up a "bitch shield," but he's instead ignoring her to avoid "encouraging" her.
Don't play dumb. I know you realise that it was an intentional insult, thinly veiled as an objective 'opinion'. It was nothing to do with lack of interest. They have their own little dispute going on and that was his latest jab at her. And yet you choose to ignore this to make a straw-man argument about Mystery.
When it comes to the rules of attraction, we're all more alike than different.
There are many similarities, true, but female psychology is *vastly* different to male psychology. A mistake many guys make is to act like women are just guys with vaginas. That's something your would-be suitors did when they approached. This should be evidence enough for you of the difference.
Then there's the true *beep* who every time they open their mouth to say something to a woman, it reeks of I'm-only-talking-to-you-so-you-will-sleep-with-me.
Can you elaborate on that one please. Both men and women do this. If you mean they deceive the other person then that's something else entirely.
be on the lookout for my book, it's going to be called the HoneyBee Friend Method: How to Gain A Woman's Respect and Attraction (lol).
Well I wish you would. It's one sure way to prove your point. Another would be to get one of your male friends a girlfriend and see if your advice actually holds up in the field.
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Arien_78
15 years ago
faceless assassin SHUT THE PHUQ UP. post your pic up here and I WILL TELL YOU if I will give you the time of day. you are a jerk and i hope that you get your just rewards. karma is a bitch and what you just did to me here on this board will bite you in the ass. rot in hell.
http://profile.myspace.com/keolakauilani
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HoneyBee21
15 years ago
What I mean is everytime a man opens his mouth, it just screams of desperation. I can tell when a guy just wants to talk to me to just talk, and when a guy wants to talk to me because he wants me to like him enough that he'll have the opportunity to make out with me. It's like I said in my first post...
And the thing is, like I also mentioned in my original post, even these guys who listen to Mystery are guilty of this. Using canned lines is an obvious thing, and I'm sorry, but despite what you Mystery followers say, women do not see lines as like "do you think Mick Jagger is good looking?" as ice breakers, they see it as weird, and desperate too. Do you want a woman to see you as weird and desperate, or as yourself?
I was also asked what's a shy guy to do when he's attracted to a woman, but is getting no attraction vibes from her. I said it probably means that she's not attracted to the guy. That started a whole other discussion.
So my point is, why follow those lines, when you can just relax and be yourself? That started this whole entire thread, and I learned that apparently these men are "socially awkward" people who use Mystery's tactics as training wheels for interacting with women. I guess I can respect that, but my argument after that was that you can overcome this "social awkwardness" yourself, and a woman shouldn't play a part in it. It's your self-esteem, something inside of you that you have to fix yourself, and no woman's like or dislike of you should be involved with that.
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super_nashwan
15 years ago
I can tell when a guy just wants to talk to me to just talk, and when a guy wants to talk to me because he wants me to like him enough that he'll have the opportunity to make out with me.
Sorry, but no guy wants to talk to you to 'just talk'. And every woman knows this. If he approached you at all it's because he's interested. If he just wanted to talk he could talk to his friends. He'd have much more chance of having things in common with them than with you. If you noticed a difference it's just that one guy was better at chatting up women than the other.
Using canned lines is an obvious thing,
Approaching *at all* is an obvious thing. Everyone knows what's going on, it's just a case of how he goes about it.
women do not see lines as like "do you think Mick Jagger is good looking?" as ice breakers, they see it as weird, and desperate too.
The lines don't matter! As long as you don't say "Hi, what's your name?" and immediately pigeonhole yourself as a loser then you can say what you want. The Badboy Lifestyle guy teaches his students to pick a random word and then they have to open girls with that word all night, just to prove that the opener doesn't matter and it's inner game that counts the most. Tyler Durden came up with the Plant and Stare approach to prove that you don't even need to say anything! Of course that's just the opener. Then you have to say something or it *is* weird.
Do you want a woman to see you as weird and desperate, or as yourself?
When men act like themselves they say things like "Do you have a boyfriend?" without saying "Hello". And that's not because they're deliberately being rude, it's because they've already decided that they're attracted and they're just cutting to the chase. That's how men's brains work. You already proved it doesn't work. Although you did prove that you get approached, which I said was a reality for most women. And *not* for most men. If men got approached by women saying "Do you have a girlfriend?" do you think they would see that as a positive or a negative? Men and women think differently. It's not enough to simply be yourself. Well at least, not in the first few minutes when you're trying to stand out from the other guys in the club.
but my argument after that was that you can overcome this "social awkwardness" yourself,
How can you do it without exposure to social situations?
and a woman shouldn't play a part in it.
Why? They are social creatures just like men. Why shouldn't they play a part in this social conditioning?
It's your self-esteem, something inside of you that you have to fix yourself, and no woman's like or dislike of you should be involved with that.
I agree with that IF self-esteem is the issue. And in some cases it IS. But not ALL. Relaxing and being yourself equates to confidence. Or at least the appearance of it. Self-esteem is not the same as confidence.
Example: If you'd never gone skydiving before and you got nervous just before jumping out of the plane, that would be a lack of confidence born of lack of experience. It would have nothing to do with self-esteem. The same applies to social interactions.
Sure, it would be nice to plug ourselves into a computer simulation like the Matrix and practice that way, then women wouldn't need to be a part of the training process and they could be spared the awkwardness. Unfortunately that doesn't exist, so the only way is to go out into the field and practice on real people. You can't relax and be yourself doing something you're not familiar with. And the only way to become familiar with it is to do it loads.
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HoneyBee21
15 years ago
Yeah, we just won't see eye-to-eye on this, because we're looking at it from different perspectives. You see this is a kind of necessary and helpful tool for some men. I see it as a choice, that for the most part should be avoided by men.
You're connecting "social awkwardness" primarily with men's interaction with women, I see it as an extreme case of low-self esteem, and that while women can affect the way the man feels about himself, it's not the main reason he ended up as "socially awkward."
We just gotta shake on it and agree to disagree. Mystery's still rich, and I'm still broke, so I guess in the end he's the smart one, right?
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super_nashwan
15 years ago
we just won't see eye-to-eye on this,
Yeah we will, I've almost broken you down. hehe :P
I see it as a choice, that for the most part should be avoided by men.
If it's a choice it's one of three:
- Learn social skills naturally: if you do it at a young enough age, great! It will be a relatively painless process. If you try it later on it's a case of trial and error with lots of drawbacks.
- Learn social skills systematically: for those that have gaps in their knowledge this outlines many pitfalls and provides a structure. This can shave years off your learning curve.
- Not learn social skills at all: I don't think many people would consider this an option.
You want everyone to be a natural (wouldn't we all), and you don't want to give them time to train (yeah maybe that would work in an ideal world). You think there is something inherently wrong and underhanded about taking the shortcuts of a method and I don't understand that pov.
You're connecting "social awkwardness" primarily with men's interaction with women,
I didn't, someone else did. I think it is ONE possible factor.
I see it as an extreme case of low-self esteem, and that while women can affect the way the man feels about himself, it's not the main reason he ended up as "socially awkward."
How do you know? Because of your own experiences? That's not enough. You're not a man, and you're just one case. Everybody uses themselves as a frame of reference but you have to try to go beyond the scope of your own experiences to get a balanced view.
You're being too black and white about this and it's limiting your perspective.
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HoneyBee21
15 years ago
Wow...And then some people wonder why I have no respect for men? All you have to do is read the above.
"And as for mystery and criticizing him for the Mick Jagger thing, that's lame. Most women don't really care what you say (as long as its not overly lame/weird or morbid/stupid)."
I'm a woman, and if a man that I met at a football game, or a park came up to me talking about Mick Jagger's looks, I would think he was overly lame/weird/stupid/desperate. Even if it was at a bar I would think it was weird. So I don't know where you get your idea that 'most women don't really care what you say.' I don't talk to men who ooze desperation and can't behave normally. At first impression, what a man says is just as important as what he looks like. I remember dancing with a guy once, and he asked me where I was from, I told him and he just nodded his head and said, "Yeah, I know where that is, it's right next to Mexico!" Right...The next time he asked me to dance, I said no. He was obviously stupid and trying to get me to like him backfired, lol. What an idiot.
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HoneyBee21
15 years ago
Okay, there's nothing wrong with some methods, I guess. You're right, not everyone can be a so-called "natural," so I guess you just have to practice. But you practice by making mistakes, and getting back up, not by listening to Mystery. The thing is, some guys have been rejected so much that they ultimately develop a fear and are led to believe that the only way to undo that fear is to listen to Mystery Crap Tactics. I disagree with this. There's gotta be some other way.
I wonder what a woman who's been rejected a million times would do? Or a woman's who's never had a man she likes approach her? Would she go read a book to teach her something? And resort to pickup lines? Or would she just sit there, and be satisfied with always being the friend? This is a question that I can't answer (and not because I haven't been in that situation, but because I honestly don't know). I would probably give the woman the same advice I would give men: Just be yourself, don't over-think anything. But would she give me the same frustrated comments that everyone else has? When I think about it that way, it sort of makes me wonder about my advice, but I think I make a good point. ;)
In a way I have to tip my hat to men, who know when desperate times call for desperate measures. If they're in a craphole, they call Mystery. Too bad it makes them look desperate.
I don't want to piss anyone off...These are just my opinions, and I'd like to think that other smart ladies share the same point of view. I'm just one person, though.
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silvernightfire
15 years ago
HoneyBee21 you're an arrogant toad. Every time a man comes up to you you think of him as desperate? Then I guess you'll be living a sad, lonely life with your judgmental mind. Someone's got an ego problem. Luckily for the rest of the world no one shares your pathetic thought process
If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make this your signature
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HoneyBee21
15 years ago
I never said any man that comes up to me is automatically desperate.
I said using these Mystery tactics is desperate. Using lines is desperate, because it sounds so unnatural and just highlights the fact that you can't have a normal conversation.
I'm not arrogant, either. Just my opinions. And I'm the last person in this world with an ego problem.
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transmentalist
14 years ago
by - HoneyBee21 on Fri Jan 23 2009 08:35:14
Mystery's still rich, and I'm still broke, so I guess in the end he's the smart one, right?
Wisdom at last! (however facetious it may be)
Honeybee, you have to let go of your anger and bitterness. THAT's why these techniques won't work on you. Your rage repels all who approach, which in turn causes you to hate all men.
It's a vicious cycle, and it must stop!
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