MovieChat Forums > Skyfall (2012) Discussion > The best Bond film (some spoilers)

The best Bond film (some spoilers)

posted 5 years ago by doomydoomdoom (34)
32 replies | jump to latest

At least of the Craig era, but I would call this film truly exemplary of the series. This one has everything that makes a Bond film great, including the best one-liner of any Bond film, "WELCOME TO SCOTLAND!" Every Bond movie is great, and there are multiple contenders for "best" Bond film like every Sean Connery film (except for Diamonds are Forever and Never Say Never Again which is OOP anyway), On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Live and Let Die, License to Kill, Tomorrow Never Dies, The World is Not Enough, etc.

But Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace marked a serious decline for the franchise, with Casino Royale being largely boring, having the lamest death of any Bond villain, an unlikable slimy Bond, too few action sequences, convoluted plot, no Bond theme, no Moneypenny, no gun barrel opening and a lamer cliffhanger ending. I was disappointed after all of the fan hype around CR and how it is regarded by some as the best Bond film ever. Goldeneye I also found overrated and that's also considered the best of the Brosnan era for some reason. (For the record, I also hate how they have "rebooted" the character with Craig and have eliminated all the hallmarks of the James Bond series just to slowly reintroduce them over multiple subplots that carry over into the next film and the next, cliffhanger endings, "origin" sequences like the ending of this film, eliminating the gun barrel, etc.) QoS was kinda a return to form and was good but not quite great.

But Skyfall takes the cake. Craig is likable, acts like Bond, awesome one-liners, action is awesome, villain is awesome and fun to root against and does big Bond villain "OMG" stuff like the train scene, Bond girl is cool and treacherous without getting too sentimental like what happened with Vesper Lynd, etc. And the ending is just fantastic. They really brought the action and "OMG" moments back here. This is a film that feels like a James Bond film. You could have slotted in Pierce Brosnan and it would have worked.

My only complaints were the very ending sequences which establish "origins" for certain characters, again leading the audience along a stupid origin subplot that Cubby rightly always said audiences didn't care about and were a waste of time. I really don't care about "how they met" or "what Bond's childhood was like" although they pull that off nicely here. Further, I think it's the wrong decision having a big-name actor like the one they have playing M, who is kinda wrong for the part to me. I also think it's the wrong decision to have a slinky nerdy 25-year-old Q but whatever I guess. John Cleese didn't want to return because of the direction the series was heading and IIRC called the Craig films rip-offs of the Jason Bourne series.

[–] Ace_Spade (9334) 5 years ago

Up-front, let me say how stoked I am to talk to someone who also digs on The World is Not Enough. It gets trashed a lot and, while I understand the criticism of Denise Richards, I don't get how Elektra King doesn't more than make up for that. It's a killer Bond flick.

I agree with you on Quantum of Solace, too. It's easily my least favourite Bond, given how un-Bond the whole thing is. Jason Bourne doesn't have a British accent. Bond doesn't act like Jason Bourne. And "shaky cam" is not useful in a Bond picture.

I very, very much disagree with Casino Royale. I quibble with parts (nobody should tell Bond how to dress, the final poker game have one-after-another the most unlikely hands in the game had me rolling my eyes), but overall, I think it's really solid. It's an origin story without being terrible. Vesper is a great character, Bond works for me here (though I would like a bit more humour and wit - he does have some), Le Chiffre is a marvelous villain, etc.

Skyfall is brilliant, too. I'm with you on this one. The plot gets a little too convoluted at times (Silva falls into the bin with the Joker and Loki as "captured on purpose") but it's such a thrilling ride. Everything in Scotland is great, too, starting with when Bond gets his old retro car out and the retro music plays.

I think young Q kinda works for a couple reasons. First, Ben Whishaw is a great actor. But, more importantly, it works with one of the main themes of the movie. The movie is questioning "out with the old, in with the new". Just because something is more modern and sophisticated doesn't make the "old" bad or even worse. Bond is questioned throughout the film (is he aging out?) and he is pitted against computer crackers like Q and Silva. But when push comes to shove, it's his spycraft and old school methods that win out. Experience is a plus. The final reason young Q works is because nobody can really compete with Desmond Llewellyn as the character. To try to make replace him would fail.

[–] TreeShaman (806) 5 years ago

Skyfall is far more "un-Bond" than Quantum.

[–] Ace_Spade (9334) 5 years ago

I gotta disagree. Quantum's action scenes didn't feel like Bond, they felt like Bourne. Bond himself was more taciturn and dour than I've ever seen him. In Casino Royale he is laconic, sure, and he is grim, but he quips as armour. That's Bond for sure.

The plot of Quantum tries to make real world connections. Is it trying to be a drama? Political commentary? It feels out of place to me.

The whole atmosphere of the film seems almost anti-fun, anti-elan.

Skyfall has flirtation with Moneypenny, great Bond lines ("What a waste of good Scotch"), and feels like an adventurous Bond film again. It also nods at the history of Bond with its third act, both the character and the series. It's got the style, the panache, the atmosphere of a Bond flick, whereas Quantum feels more like a standard-issue action movie.

The exception I have always granted Quantum is everything with Agent Fields, from the hotel check-in, to the opera, to the oily tragedy. That felt like Bond, but the rest...a mediocre, forgettable action movie with none of the important style elements that make Bond Bond.

[–] johnmarti59 (2356) 4 years ago

I like how you guys write. No doubt.

[–] LTUM (969) 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Ace_Spade (9334) 5 years ago

What are we not getting?

[–] LTUM (969) 5 years ago

https://youtu.be/xtcCAJWOlGo

[–] Ace_Spade (9334) 5 years ago

I've seen the video.

He says it doesn't feel like Bond, but doesn't elaborate. I disagree - it does feel like Bond throughout the movie.

He complains that they go off-grid "and then it's Home Alone". There is conflict between the old and the new during the film, Silva attacking with computers a lot, this pays off a major theme. I've never understood the "Home Alone" complaint because (1) improvised trap houses weren't invented by Home Alone, and (2) it's such a small part of the film anyway. Why doesn't this feel like Bond? Because Home Alone and Skyfall both have booby traps?

It's a fair point that the villain basically got what he wanted without the movie realising it. Fair enough, and the ending should have a different flavour. I don't know why he rips on the film for having this loss of the mother figure in and of itself, though. That feels fine for Bond. In OHMSS he is married (not very Bond) and allowed that moment of humanity. Why is he not allowed a mother figure...? Black doesn't say that either (he does say it would be more "Sherlock Holmes redux", which...I don't get that)

Again, I see his point about the ending. Skyfall is flawed, but still makes my top 10. I also have a deep love for Shane Black, particularly Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang and The Nice Guys. He's a script genius. But it turns out I disagree with him on what "feels" Bond. Even with the ending weirdness, Skyfall still feels more "Bond" than Quantum, and it's still a great action-thriller.

I was curious why you're saying we're "obviously millennials"...?

[–] LTUM (969) 5 years ago

ah hell just taking an undeserved shot at millennials, but I shouldn't have since plenty of folks over 30 like skyfail too.

I just don't get the love for skyfall, and at the same time I do not get the hate for Quantum. You guys keep saying 'feel' like Bond but aside from that extremely subjective measure (whatever it means) skyfall just had a shit plot and descended from there into peyton place style melodrama, in ADDITION TO the points shane black mentioned. And, I don't think the point was about where 'home alone' style plots originated; but that it was a poor choice for the finale in a Bond movie. Dude you seem very nice, but all I can say is we must just agree to disagree, because I do NOT understand why so many ppl love skyfail. (and as I said, I don't think Quantum is the stinker so many make it out to be; IMO it's a good part 2 to casino, like the B side of the record)

And that is what I meant... for a person to watch skyfall and think it's a good Bond film, just 'doesn't get it'. There's no way to explain it beyond just using that phrase and moving on. (which is what I intended to do above, but I felt your post deserved a sincere reply)

Cheers, mate.

==========================
EDIT

I see above you said skyfall is brilliant. OMG. On what basis???? Wow. And you said Quantum is 'un-bond'. Skyfail may have some of the bondsy tropes like Q and the opening gunshot silhouette, but the overall movie SUCKED and was boring AF. As I've said many times, if you think that was brilliance, then you and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum, and what you value is foreign to me; ie we speak separate languages.

I will also add this as a general point for anyone interested:

Something many, MANY people seem to have missed in the past decade is that with casino the series was REBOOTED. The producers reenergized it with a higher octane amped up version for the new generation. Like it or not (and apparently you don't, because I saw some of your comments about casino too) that is what happened. And so, you see, Quantum was continuing in that vein. It was an extension of Casino. HELL, EVEN THE PLOT WAS PIGGY BACK TO CASINO. So, to say one loves casino then turns around and hates Quantum, well that makes no sense to me. Quantum doesn't deserve that criticism. Yeah it's not perfect. But like you said casino is not perfect either. Yes they both were probably influenced by the bourne type tastes of the early 2000s. But Roger Moore they are not. Pierce Brosnan they are not. et al etc.

But skyfall? Damn man it's just a mess. My main complaint with it is IT BORED ME. At least I never fall asleep when watching Quantum or casino lol.

rant over. (yes I'm aware you will disagree with 104% of everything I said here lol)

[–] Ace_Spade (9334) 5 years ago

I dunno if taking shots at Millennials is undeserved...

I appreciate the sincere response and the thoughtful/respectful conversation. I dig talking about movies (hence why I'm here) and debating tastes with persons who (respectfully, as yourself) disagree. I like trying to figure out why somebody doesn't like what I like or loves what I loathe (although that's a bit strong for Quantum...I just dislike it). I like being forced to articulate why I like something (or don't) as well. It's a fun mental exercise.

Ultimately, you're right: we're just not seeing eye-to-eye here.

Skyfall was brilliant to me (again, not perfect, but a top 10 Bond flick) because it engaged with Bond's humanity (getting older) a little bit, I liked the relationship he has/had with M, Dench's performance is (as always) impeccable, as was Javier Bardem. The action scenes were great, I liked the used of music (the old-style arrangement of the Bond theme and Boom, Boom, Boom by the Animals were highlights). Bond being forced to confront his past was fun, too. Also, I felt like Craig's Bond was finally allowed to be more suave, witty, and sophisticated. Not that that was entirely absent in Casino Royale, but I thought Quantum missed the boat on some of Bond's essential character traits.

It is certainly flawed. I think they could have combined the Shanghai assassin/sniper fight with the Macau sequence to tighten up the run time. I concede Shane Black's point about the ending. I think Silva's plan should not have been the overly-complicated captured-on-purpose cliche.

Boring a cardinal sin for an action movie, so that's fair. I feel that way about Rogue One and I can't stand that movie as a result.

Quantum lost me fast with the shaky-cam action scene at the start.

I don't disagree with everything you're saying in principal: we both agree that one film "felt like Bond" and the other did not, we're just pole opposites for which was which. So, there's some common ground.

[–] LTUM (969) 5 years ago

Great reply. I truly appreciate it.

I like trying to figure out why somebody doesn't like what I like or loves what I loathe (although that's a bit strong for Quantum...I just dislike it). I like being forced to articulate why I like something (or don't) as well.

^^This is exactly how I feel, and why I am here. It's as if I'm trying to 'unlock' the code of what makes things work, or not. And I mean in reference to my own tastes not others'. I write, so this may be the drive behind my quest with this. Or, the quest could be behind my original urge to write. Either way, breaking them down in analysis is a big part of movies for me. So your quote ^^ is on point.

I agree about the humanizing of Bond. Yeah I liked that. Been thinking about it some, then I just read your post. I'll add this:

I think the main thing that irked me about skyfall is that the first part of the movie was ROCKIN then it went in another direction, which is where it 'lost' me. The opening scene was great. Loved it. (her shooting bond off the train). The scorpion/liquor thing in that weird bar in Asia or whereever it was. Loved everything right up until the story diverged into the 'mommy mommy' path Bardem drove, that lasted until the end of the movie. Sorry but I can't say specifically what scene made that turn. Why? Because I only saw Skyfall once, in the theater, and I'm going on that initial viewing for my memory. But I remember Bond was in the duel, saw something on the TV and then showed up at MI6. I think he talked to M and met with the gay Q and then went to, an island maybe? I seem to remember that at this point it was about a stolen database list or something, similar to the stolen NOC list in Mission Impossible. ALL THAT up until there was great. It was when the revenge plot based on Bardem's anger at M for dissing him and choosing Bond as the favorite 'son' showed up that I felt like the movie was about something different than it had been about in the first half. I remember saying to my buddy several times, there with me in the theater: "what happened to the missing list? The big trigger that brought Bond out of hiding? Is he not still chasing the list?"

See, my gripe is this. It feels like bait and switch. Meaning, it started out being about 'the list' but later became about Bardem's revenge plot. Here's my main point: If they had told me that it was about Bardem in the beginning, I would not have felt like it went off the rails. That wasn't communicated to the viewer until very late in the movie. Yes, reveals are important in a movie. But not when they shift the whole spine. Reminds me of wag the dog; it was two different movies in one. Completely changed course halfway through. This is kinda what I feel like Skyfall did, but not to that degree.

You may find this interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyFHlxdOSsw&t=1508s ....only #1 from 0:00-02:25 (and specifically 02:10-02:25)

So for me, by setting 'finding that list' as the major external goal in the opening, then switching EVERYTHING to some obscure internal motivation by a nemisis/antagonist due to two decades old misappropriated scorn, just sent me into a fog. They had me totally hooked, then just cut the line.

And I've been pissing and moaning and griping about skyfall ever since lol.

But hey I respect your opinion. It is well thought out. Maybe someday I will see it again and perhaps see some things I didn't care for earlier, in a new light. That has happened before.

But anywho, this is a bit more info as to why I feel the way I do.

Now, let me say up front you REALLY don't want me to give my opinion on Scheize'tre. Walked out of that one in the middle. smh

[–] LordBAElish (2015) 5 years ago

Movie was fine until Bond and M went to Scotland and it turned into home alone.

[–] johnmarti59 (2356) 4 years ago

Hah-hah, yeah.

[–] TreeShaman (806) 5 years ago

I could list at least 50 one-liners from the series that are better than the lame "welcome to Scotland."

[–] LordBAElish (2015) 5 years ago

While good it is the most overrated Bond movie of the bunch

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 5 years ago

Here are two (of many) of favorite bad scenes:

M tries to avoid being found so runs to hide ... with her flashlight shining all over the place.

Villain knows exact future blocking so has Rube Goldberg trap to send subway train at Bond. If he was so privy to the minutiae of his future chase scene, then why not plant the explosives exactly where his chasers will be instead of all that indirect bullshit?

----
CR is the only good Craig Bond. The rest are sour.

[–] TreeShaman (806) 5 years ago

And yet people claim that Skyfall is a "realistic" Bond movie, unlike those silly Roger Moore flicks.

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 5 years ago

I would rank Skyfall close to most of the Moore movies. The difference is that those Moore 007 flicks were trying to be campy. Only 2 or 3 of Moore's were good, IMO and even those have problems.

[–] LordBAElish (2015) 4 years ago

Skyfall is the most overrated Bond movie, in my opinion. Its good, its in the top half of the 24, but its not top 5 as some rank it. The Home Alone rip off ending was awful. It was good movie, nothing special.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

"with Casino Royale being largely boring"

Stopped reading right there.

[–] LTUM (969) 5 years ago

Lol I feel ya dawg !!!

[–] Joogle83 (4137) 4 years ago

Casino Royale is overrated Skyfall is top tier bond

[–] LTUM (969) 4 years ago

you are so lost, you don't even realize it.

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 4 years ago

Casino Royal: 9.5/10
QoS: 5/10
Skyfall: 4/10 (3 other, better spy movies that same year)
Spec: 5/10

I think they are still on the wrong track and don't realize (or cannot realize) it.

[–] Joogle83 (4137) 4 years ago

yes Mendes is an Artist

[–] LTUM (969) 4 years ago

lol bullshit

[–] bobbydallas (8053) 4 years ago

i love the theme song. might actually be my favorite now.. even before Golden Eye ..!

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

It’s by far my favourite and I’m not even much of an Adele fan.

[–] bobbydallas (8053) 4 years ago

SAME ! she just crushes this tune