MovieChat Forums > Prayers for Bobby (2009) Discussion > How come the mom is not in jail?

How come the mom is not in jail?


I have always wondered why there are no real laws preventing kids from their parents. From what I can understand, children are, according to the law, considered as property of their parents. My argument: if you harass a person to the extent of them killing themselves, you will without a doubt go to jail for harassment and I don't know what else. But as long as it's your kid, no harm done. You shed a tear and people treat you like a victim and not like a murderer.

Am I wrong?

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[deleted]

Preventing kids from their parents? What the hell does that mean?

Sorry, I meant "protecting".

But the parents don't own them. If that was the case, then a parent could get away with doing anything they wanted to their child (including abuse, neglect or even molest them because they are only "property").

Actually, that's not true. Parents get the final say no matter what an underage wants to do. A kid (even a 17-y-o who has the right to drive!) needs his parent's permit to travel abroad for example. And let's not forget circumcision: parents have the right to irrevocably change their infant's body just because they want to. This is what I call "branding" and you only brand your property.

Dharun Ravi harassed his roommate Tyler Clementi, leading to Clementi's suicide. Ravi get exactly 30 DAYS jail time. Apparently, "harassment" doesn't count for that much.

I love the law...

Furthermore, harassment still has to be proven in a court of law.

Perez Hilton has been harassing for years and I don't see him going to jail. And we've got all the proof we need. And what about all the protesters wishing gays to go to hell, voting against gay rights... According to the American Heritage Dictionary:
ha·rass
To irritate or torment persistently.
To wear out; exhaust.
To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids.

I took gay rights just as an example. There are many more.

It would be very difficult to say that a parent who chose not to support her child's "lifestyle choice" on religious grounds constitutes "harassment".

In the film, that's not what we saw. Raising your kid as a Christian and then telling them day and night they will go to hell, that's harassment. Or badgering. Or whatever.

I also remember the case with the "worst mother of the year", that b*tch who harassed a teenage girl and drove her to suicide. What happened to her by the way?

Because the law doesn't work that way.

Oh I know. That's my point. I don't think this should be the case. I'm more of "an eye for an eye" person.

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[deleted]

You couldn't for example decide to keep your child at home and make them work the garden (as you would a slave) in lieu of going to school because that would be illegal (at least in the US it would). Children have certain rights that supersede your parental authority, which means that you don't "own" them.

So, every time a kid says "no, I don't want to do that", how comes it's the parent's will that is superposed? If you tell your kid to take out the trash and he says no, then you do't have the right to insist, right?

But this is a tradition that has been embraced by the majority for so many decades now

Most human beings on the planet are not circumcised. What about countries were this is not a tradition? China for example. How come Jews and Muslims can circumcise their kids in any country? Given that the "it's a tradition" isn't valid in that country, it should be considered illegal (and criminal). But that is not the case. They are trying to ban this in Germany but the backlash is considerable. What if my family's tradition is to cut part of my external ear? What about the New Jersey mom who brought her 5-y-o to the tanning salon? Tanning is a tradition in New Jersey so why was everybody against that? The truth is people have a blind spot vis-a-vis certain issues. The law is wrong because it is partial.

the law happens to be on the side of the majority.

As I just said, that is clearly not the true.

And people are actually questioning this parental right both inside and outside the US, so it may not always be this way.

Questioning doesn't mean the law will change. The leeway we have given to certain minorities is astonishing.

the courts determine what constitutes harassment and what (if any) punishment should be dealt to the harasser. It doesn't matter what you or I think is harassment, what matters is what the law says in a given jurisdiction and what the jury decides that day.

The problem here is that harassment is not prosecuted automatically by the state. The victim has to press charges. That's why Perez Hilton hasn't been to jail. As soon as someone presses charges, the slimy lawyers get in the game, they settle and that's the end of the story.

It doesn't matter what you or I think is harassment, what matters is what the law says in a given jurisdiction and what the jury decides that day.

Actually, what matters is the opinion of 12 people that have no idea of what the law is. Having a jury is by itself insane.

Unfortunately, as Ghandi said, "an eye for an eye" mentality just leaves everyone blind![quote]
> Uhm, I don't see why that would be true. I'm not a thief, I'm not a murderer so why would I get punished? The "an eye for an eye" mentality simply provides criminals with an equivalent punishment. So, a person can kill someone but his own life is too precious to be taken away. And by the way, Ghandi's mentality was very much wrong. It is this pacifist, left-wing (I'm a lefty btw) approach that has turned our society into an unsafe place. Criminals just get out (if they ever get in in the first place) and take it up.

[quote]I would rather Bobby's mother have learned a valuable lesson from the tragedy that she lived through.

That's the attitude I'm talking about. I don't give a flying *beep* about that ugly *beep* I don't care about how she feels. The tragedy that she lived through? She drove her son to suicide and she's in pain? What about the victim?

As horrible as she seemed to him, I still got the sense that she did what she did because she loved him.

Well, that changes everything! Hallelujah, the son is resurrected!

She was just very misguided

That's why we should ban some people from procreating.

That is something that she'll have to live with (the death of her son) for the rest of her life.

So do all criminals. Should I forgive a murderer because he will be facing demons for the rest of his life? I don't care.

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True. But that doesn't equate to the child being "property". You cannot do with your child as you wish just because they are your child. You still have to provide for them (according to the law). You couldn't for example decide to keep your child at home and make them work the garden (as you would a slave) in lieu of going to school because that would be illegal (at least in the US it would). Children have certain rights that supersede your parental authority, which means that you don't "own" them.


Is that true, though?

Look at animal abuse laws. If you own a dog, by law, you have to feed it. You have to take care of it. Keep it in your control. If you don't, and someone reports you, in most cases the animal will be taken away and there will be the possibility of criminal charges (which CAN and SHOULD result in jail time). Does that make the dog any less "owned"? No. They're still property.

If you think about it, we deal with children in the same way we deal with our pets. We feed them, care for them, and if we do a bad job they get taken away. If their "owners" have a falling out (ie divorce), we fight over who gets them. It's all handled much like property..

So while the law doesn't technically call children property, if you look at it for what it really is, they pretty much are.

..and that's really why this woman isn't in jail. She met the basic needs outlined by law, and regardless of the fact that she made him feel so low that he killed himself.. she fulfilled her legal (though not necessarily moral) obligations.

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All generalizations are FALSE, including this one!

Actually, you're wrong. Generalisation is one of the basic tools of human beings without which we could not function. When you go to the grocery shop and see bananas, you say "Hmm, I love bananas. I will buy some". Have you tasted EVERY single banana ever produced? No. By you are using statistical inference and probabilities: "I have tasted thousands of bananas and I didn't like only 10. So chances are I will like these ones".

What people do not understand and this irks me a lot is that generalising doesn't necessarily mean apply a certain property to every single member of a category. If you say "Chinese are small", it doesn't mean that ALL Chinese are small. If you were referring to all Chinese, you would have used the word "all" (that's its main purpose in the English language, to differentiate between the majority and the whole).

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[deleted]

at the end of the day, a generalized statement such as "bananas taste good" is inherently false, because there are no doubt SOME bananas out there that do NOT taste good. So the statement becomes factually incorrect!

Human beings have tacitly agreed that a phrase such as "I like bananas" is to be interpreted as "I like some/many bananas". If not, we wold stop communicating. Why ask someone "do you like music?" since the logical answer would always be "no"? Do you like math? No, because you can't love every single subfield of this world. Etc, etc.

Saying "Chinese are small" is akin to saying "All Chinese are small".

"akin" means "analogous" so it's not really the same thing. And I still disagree that the two phrases are similar. Plus, saying this phrase means that this is valid for EVERY single person that would use the two of them and that is not true (not the case for me) so your generalization is false. See how it goes? Can you imagine having someone say "honey, you're generalising again!" after every single phrase you pronounce? Here's where the tacit contract comes in.

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Because under the law, intent is 99%. In other words, however sh!tty the behavior of the parent (or whomever) there is no way that she (in this movie) or that mom who harrassed that teen (the one who committed suicide) on Facebook could anticipate what their actions would cause the other person to do (although in the latter case, I believe they gave the mother a plea bargain of some kind of misdeameanor stalking charge - she was definitely in the wrong, but you can't charge someone with anything much more, because of the "intent" issue). Hope that helps...

I'd rather have a a bit of a "flip-flopper" (Romney) than a total "FLOP" (Obama).

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Thanks for clearing that. The question now is: doesn't bullying indicate an intent? I mean, if I harass someone day and night, I am clearly conscious of the fact they may lash out (on others or themselves). I don't buy the whole "I didn't mean to!"

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Why are you blaming the mom for Bobby's death. It was Bobby's decision. The mom tried to help him in every way she could, but Bobby refused.

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The mom tried to help him in every way she could, but Bobby refused.

Either you did not understand the film or you are a sociopath.

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Did you not watch the part where she said she still loves him and will do everything she can to help him? Did you not see the part where she took Bobby for counseling and Bobby just sat there and acted as if he didn't want to be there?

Yes, Bobby had a hard life, but he chose to end it himself. His parents never told him to kill himself. Bobby, and ONLY Bobby, chose that path. I think it's ridiculous that people are blaming the parents for it.

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Oh c'mon, don't be stupid.

And she is already suffering enough by having lost her son, she'll have the guilt imprisoned in her mind forever.




Ashmi any question

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You are right. Forget society and its rules. As long as someone feels guilty about what they did, no need to punish them using the law. If someone rapes you one day, don't hire a lawyer and don't press charges. I'm sure he'll feel guilty enough.

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Yeah you're so right, because phsyically forcing yourself onto someone is exactly the same thing as mentally pressuring someone. We've got a smart one here! Are you a nobel peace price winner by any chance? You should be with your amazing intellect, actually with your brain its amazing you haven't found a cure for Aids yet.





Ashmi any question

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phsyically forcing yourself onto someone is exactly the same thing as mentally pressuring someone.

You're right, it's not. Because forcing someone to kill themselves is far worse.

Insults is the weapon of weak people. And judging by your post, you're very weak.

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Even though i clearly didn't insult you in my last post?

And judging by all of your posts, and what you just said, you are incredibly stupid.

Pray tell how she FORCED him to kill himself?

I didn't see her put a gun to his head, perhaps you should look up the word Force in a dictionary before you use it next time.



Ashmi any question

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ungh why am i bothering to to do this, ok here goes...

The OP was excessive in his delovery but his point is juste.

Clearly you have never experienced real mental turmoil, she cut the son she loved so dearly out of her life and his family based on such a powerful part about him that he simply could not change, which she later realised.

No she did not put a gun to his head, that statement is idiotic, but lets take it as a metaphor, she certainly gave him the bullets.. and she realised that and the inspirational part about her is she tried her best to make sure there were no more Bobbys, it still is not worth his life but such is her penance...

have a nice life should you ever read this, with an open mind one hopes.

PS Finding AIDS cure as an insult for perceived overt intelligence... really?

PPS It will be cured before stupidity.

Peace out o7

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[deleted]

Clearly because one would imagine that someone who had felt the depths of just how traumatic a parents rejection feels over something about you that you cannot change, might demomstrate something more empathetic.

There is a stark difference betweem the high school bully and the person who carroed you and brought you into the world showed you so much love for your whole life only to systematically dismantle that and totally reject at the time tou would need her thw most. This is surely just common sense, our emptions make is who we are.

The bible teaches love front and centre and absplutely designed for interpretation whyon earth people choose the interpretation thay focuses on the tony pprtiom that may or may not condemm same sex love is totally abstract to me and to put that warped interpretation before soul of your own child who is in that much pain already is just deplorable. I just dont understand why this is even a discussion.

Her punishment is the loss of her sons life and she has to deal with the consequemces of that lieing in her hands for the most part.

I have more to say butinam more interested in what you have to reply to this first

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Btw apologies for the terrible typos I typed this on my phone :/

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I believe intent played a big part. As misguided and wrong as she was, she wasn't trying to push him to suicide, or to even any kind of harmful actions, there was no malicious intent in her actions.

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I do agree the mother wasn't trying to make him kill himself. This said, she used excessive psychological violence for many years and this should be punishable.

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