MovieChat Forums > Ink (2009) Discussion > Who is Liev? (spoilers)

Who is Liev? (spoilers)


What do people think about her? Near the end she asks Ink why he already knows her name, suggesting that she has some kind of connection to him (his answer frustrates her, so I think he has not realized something).

I thought perhaps that she is Emma from the died-in-a-coma timeline, but there isn't a lot to support that. Another possibility is that she is actually Shelly, but I think that the sequence showing other-side Shelly looking like herself rules that out (if Liev was wearing a mask then this would make more sense).

Or am I just looking for something that's not there, and Liev is just an altruistic entity who sees the relationship between Ink and Emma? For such a major character, that kind of backstory seems like a deus ex machina, but maybe that's the point?

EDIT: I'm ashamed to admit that I only just now realized that her name backwards is "Veil" which is surely not a coincidence.

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Ya, I though that maybe Liev is Emma many years later... however, it wouldn't make sense. If it was Emma, then that means she didn't die as a little girl, which means he Dad doesn't shoot himself, which means no Ink... which means none of the story actually happened.

Also, Liev tells Emma that she'll be 'much more than a storyteller', so that leads me away from thinking Liev is Emma.


UNIQUE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yorT84ZhVNI&sns=em

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Huh? Did you watch the movie? The whole point was to change the timeline they were living for the girl and her dad! Their future is already written but they had a chance to change it by going back and they did just that. So, Liev may be Emma from the timeline of the dad's suicide but the Emma that was saved will have a very different life indeed.

Another film with a proper understanding of spacetime and how it works, not like most of the sci-fi garbage that attempts time manipulation stories and tries to deal with paradoxes and pretend to be deep when paradoxes do not exist in time travel or time manipulation at all (that is not to say that there are no paradoxes in the universe, just not in time related matters).

Terminator quad and the Sarah Connor chronicles also does an excellent job showing how it works, as did the latest Star Trek film (and Star Trek is known for botching it all up).

"You were assimilated, resistance was futile!"

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I think you are correct in your guess that Liev is Emma. There seems to be two timelines or realities. We know that for sure because in one, John has committed suicide, and it is implied that Emma's death was the reason. So if things are changed and Emma does not die, it makes sense that Liev would tell Emma that she will not turn into a storyteller.

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That's a really good theory. I thought she might be Shelly, having changed in appearance in the afterlife or something, but I think I like your theory better. Especially since it means a happier ending :)

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I thought she might be his mother

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Personally I think she is exactly what she appeared to be: a well known/powerful story teller who was attempting to influence the outcome of events in a positive manner to prevent the Incubi from gaining an extremely powerful resource(and just the general soul saving).

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Could she be John's wife that died? or am I totally wrong?

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I was thinking that She was his wife.

Laters

Sol

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While it's certainly possible, they never really gave any indication that she was. In the scenario of the story, it is certainly a valid way for it to have gone but taking the flim asa is it would require such a leap that unless otherwise confirmed by the writers(or some hint was dropped I missed) I would say it is unlikely the intention.

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While it's certainly possible, they never really gave any indication that she was. In the scenario of the story, it is certainly a valid way for it to have gone but taking the flim asa is it would require such a leap that unless otherwise confirmed by the writers(or some hint was dropped I missed) I would say it is unlikely the intention.

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I would have to disagree, Liev is asked by Ink, "Why is this girl so special?" And it's not subtle either, the writer's never say why Liev found that girl special but she was rather motherly toward her.I assumed it's because the little girl was their daughter. That's just my opinion though. Plus, her mother would have almost no connection to the story other than the fact that she died. I don't know, it seemed if she was JUST there to die than why add her to the story, like why not show the court case more or something that would have more bearing on the story? It seemed to connect very well to me, I'm pretty sure it was the mother. Again just my opinion though.

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I think his wife dying was what broke him in the first place and what made him unfit to take care of the girl, and that's the main point of the mother/wife dying.
However I feel there certainly is something about Liev that I've missed, guess I'll have to think about it when I see this again in a few years.

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Liev is asked by Ink, "Why is this girl so special?" And it's not subtle either, the writer's never say why Liev found that girl special but she was rather motherly toward her.


This was addressed, she later made the distinction that it wasn't the girl who was "special" it was Ink himself. She told the girl that she would be much more than a storyteller--indicating the kind of thought that her fate after death wasn't one to be feared. She wasn't preventing her kidnapping/death, she was preventing Ink being the one to cause it and crossing a line.

As for the mother playing no role, her death itself was the purpose. It setup the conflict and started chain of events(and event chains play a key role in the movie). It's not even like that is rare, it's a common plot device.

I'd also question why Liev would have hid it if she was the mother, at least at the end when things were revealed.

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This was addressed, she later made the distinction that it wasn't the girl who was "special" it was Ink himself. She told the girl that she would be much more than a storyteller--indicating the kind of thought that her fate after death wasn't one to be feared. She wasn't preventing her kidnapping/death, she was preventing Ink being the one to cause it and crossing a line.

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What made Ink special?

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As for the mother playing no role, her death itself was the purpose. It setup the conflict and started chain of events(and event chains play a key role in the movie). It's not even like that is rare, it's a common plot device.

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It showed him drinking alcohol a lot during the start to the end of the movie, I thought he was always troubled. It was just a downward spiral alcohol->Job->Wife->Daughter->Suicide

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She would hide it to protect her daughter. It just makes sense to me that Liev is the girl's mother or the girl herself.

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What made Ink special?

While it was never stated outright, I'd say simply outright power. He was shown to be by far the most powerful combatant, taking out large groups of both storytellers and incubi.

She would hide it to protect her daughter. It just makes sense to me that Liev is the girl's mother or the girl herself.


That's the sticking point though, there was no reason to conceal the fact if she was the mother. It wouldn't have done anything to protect them, and they wouldn't have retained memories of the experience regardless.

While it is certainly possible as an unaddressed issue, it is a leap that no actual concrete evidence supports. It's almost more a sentimental issue than anything else, as obviously the "happy ending" aspects of what it would entail are appealing.

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Well i like the Emma theory but if you look at it further and you see Ink's reaction at the end where he see's Liev die, its almost the same reaction when Shelly died. The way his emotions play out it kinda feels like he has lost her again.

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Oh! Her name backwards is "Veil." That makes so much since seeing that as she died, the veil was lifted.

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Liev is Emma from the suicide timeline. This is why she says that the girl Emma will be more than she is, because she will have her father and live a full life, allowing her soul to flourish and become much greater than the version of her who died as a girl. This is also why Liev has similarities to his wife because that is her mom.

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I just saw the movie for the second time last night and I think it's weird nobody has mentioned the obvious until now.

Liev is God. That is why the Incubi are so pleased Ink has brought here along. The leader of the Incubi is obviously Satan.

This whole movie is a religious alagory. There are ones who are with God, the storytellers (angels), there are ones who are with Satan, the Incubi (demons) and there are those who live without religion, The Drifters.

At least that's what I got from it. I link this to the black storyteller saying on the top of the ambulance 'Liev tells us there's a bigger picture, but we just don't see it')

It's still quite possible Liev is Emma, which would be the reason the Incubi would want her destroyed at this young age, when she has not reached her full powers yet.

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Ah.. I rembember seeing the leader of the shadows as anti-christ, but I never connected liev as god, but you are problebly right.
I also remember wondering what would happen to emma if they succeded with their plans, as the pathfinder says, "death will be the least of her troubles"
Therefore I rule out emma as liev, and the second thing is what happens when they die, heaven and hell?

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Liev being God doesn't really work. Perhaps you could compare her to an archangel type figure, but considering God in virtually every concept is all powerful the story would have been over in seconds. :D

There really was no allegory to any major religion, it was a fairly basic good versus evil scenario(which is an independent concept that is simply embraced by most religions). Particularly nothing of the Abrahamic variety in any but thet most superficial ways. If anything it'd probably be closer to old Native American beliefs. (A spirit world that isn't heaven nor hell. The usage of the drums as a visual. Dream-centric. The names storyteller and pathfinder. The incubi moniker is the only break in this.)

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For what it's worth, I disagree.

I think that this story was not doctrine-specific, but definitely held close ties to any faith that has a sacrificial central figure (including, as you mentioned, some Native Americand beliefs, though they certainly aren't the only ones to emphasize the importance of dreams and drums). I also agree with the other poster that Liev was God in some form.

Liev obviously has some significance other than just as Emma or the wife. The other storytellers identify her as their greatest warrior, and Ink says, "I don't believe the rumors about you..." and something about her being the storyteller who can essentially change what has already happened. That already makes her more than your average storyteller. She can make your sins as though they have never happened.

Furthermore, her talking to Ink as being the one who is important here (which,to me, completely undermines the idea of her being Emma's mother...if she was, Emma and Ink would be equally important, I think) also seems indicative of the (relatively modern) idea of a "personal" God. Someone on this thread mentioned his superior strength as the reason for Liev saying he was the important one, and while that's certainly plausible, I believe the reason he was important was because his was the soul that was in danger. It's like the Jesus's parable of the lost sheep. Does the shepherd not leave his ninety-nine to go in search of the one who is lost? Does Liev not leave the group of storytellers she's with in order to save this one lost soul?

And then, finally, of course, Liev's self-sacrifice, which is everywhere in this story. Her hair? "It's yours." (You can draw a kind of sideways and probably unintended parallel to Aslan of Lion-Witch-Wardrobe fame here, who was also a sacrificial god and specifically a metaphor for Christ). And then, of course, the death at the end, which she didn't fight.

In this way, the idea that "if Liev was God she'd be all-powerful and the story would be short" doesn't necessarily ring true. Sacrifice is a huge theme among spiritual deities, including the Judeo-Christian God, and the idea of free will and the *battle* for the soul (emphasized, I like to think, by Liev's constant reiteration of the point, "You're in control") is what is illustrated here.

I think that there's a lot of different faiths represented in this movie, from across numerous cultures, but I definitely would not rule out Liev as some version of God.

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Nice post, fyrefly. That is exactly how I saw it. Liev as a Christ or God figure (or pick your term from your particular faith if applicable). It did remind me a bit of Aslan being led willingly to the stone table -- but could apply to many faiths in some way or another.

I believe the reason he was important was because his was the soul that was in danger.
He was the whole focus of the film. The film was about him, not his daughter.

I also liked Liev being Veil. Good catch.

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gay

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Absolutely agree..

Myself, being inundated with catholic education for the better part of 9 years, is usually annoyed when religious overtones are pressed too hard in a movie. This movie was an exception. It was done beautifully and left "religious" out of it, and instead used an excellent story which crossed boundaries and kept everything pretty much non denominational.

To me the character Liev, was representative of Jesus, whose self sacrifice was made to inspire selfless actions.

People have stated that if Liev was God or Jesus, then the story would've been a quick fix / the end. But remember as humans we have the power of free will and to choose our own destiny. We choose to do right, we choose to do wrong. All that can be done is the influence of our choices by outside forces. Good/evil/friends/mass advertising. For anyone to just "Fix" the situation would be to violate our right to free will, and also make for a shady ending to what could have been a great movie, like this one was.

It's the stuff that dreams are made of...

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I wholeheartedly agree. The entire film is a religious allegory. The biggest clue lies in the statement that 1,000 years is like a day (now, open the Bible and read Psalm 90:4 and 2nd Peter 3:8).

Also, Liev is completely a Christ figure --- sacrificing herself so others may live. I've listened to different interviews with the creators, and they haven't made any claims to its spiritual/religious connections, but I think the parallels are undeniable.

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I agree also. When Liev makes the statement "to me, a day is like 1000 years and 1000 years like a day" she is simply telling Emma a fact that applies to herself. She isn't saying she's quoting something, though to us it is obvious she is quoting the Jewish and Christian Bibles. She is claiming to be God, which is the reason why the Sanhedrin sought to kill Christ; because he was quoting scripture for himself, claiming to be God.

As to why is Ink important, others have mentioned it; the Shepperd leaving the 99 to find the 1 that was lost. The entire point of the movie was the redemption of John's soul. That is why Ink was the "great prize" to the Incubi/Demons/Satan.

Also, Christ is mentioned more than once in the Bible as "The Lion of the Tribe of Judah." This is the entire reason why C.S Lewis (A well known Christian apologist) made Aslan a lion in his stories of Narnia. There is no other interpretation for this.

Liev backwards being Veil is also important as the Bible in Matthew 27:51 states that the first thing that happened when Christ died was the Veil in the temple being torn in two from top to bottom, thereby revealing God to all and giving a chance for redemption to all humans. When Liev died the Truth was revealed to John and his redemption was complete. (And seriously... the main character is John, the Disciple who wrote the Book of Revelations? And the Pathfinder is Jacob, the Father of the 12 Tribes of Israel?)

"Liev tells us there's a greater picture but we just don't see it." The Bible in 1 Corithians 13:12 says "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

This entire film to me is Christian allegory and if you want to dispute that, I say how can you dispute it when it lifts a quote directly out of the Bible and uses so many obviously Christian references for Liev and others?

Altogether this is a beautiful film which I just stumbled across. It must be watched with attention and is not a "hang your brain at the door" type of film or for people looking for instant gratification or Hollywood stupidity. Go watch it.

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When John was having flashbacks to his past...the scene where he gets off the bus and the kids are making fun of him for being trash...then it goes to the scene where he's a bit older and he's in a store with his mother and siblings and his mom is using food stamps to pay for the food...I thought I recognized Liev as John's mother in that scene. I didn't go back to look, but when I saw that flashback, I thought, isn't that Liev? You only see her for a second or two tho.

Also, as for the time travel aspect...it was my understanding that time is not linear on the Other Side. So Ink may have been in that world for eons in earth time by the time we meet him. By saving his daughters life from the Incubi on The Other Side, while simultaneously "reconnecting" with his Emma in her hospital bed on Earth--the single touch of her forehead--John changes the course of his own future, thus he never commits suicide, thus he never becomes Ink, thus none of events of the movie ever happen, which is why Ink...and Emma...disappear from the Incubi's lair just before Emma wakes up.

I thought this movie was about as good as any I've seen in a LONG time. I look forward to more from this production team. Considering none of the actors have much big-screen acting experience, I thought they were ALL very good.

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Yes! Liev is John's mother from the food-stamps scene! She may also represent all these other qualities people have been discussing, but I too recognized Liev the Storyteller as John-the-child's mother.

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After a second viewing (I didn't catch this the first time around) I believe Liev is Emma for one simple reason. In the scene in the forest where she is playing with the children, she falls down and plays dead. When she jumps up to scare the kids she roars like a lioness. And later in the film trying to keep Emma from being scared, she tells her she thinks that Emma has transformed into a lioness and must work on her roar.

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