MovieChat Forums > Khuda Kay Liye (2007) Discussion > Some minor questions for liberal Pakista...

Some minor questions for liberal Pakistanis


Since on this board, nothing is being interpreted except in the light of nationality, I would say, for the record that I am from India, just saw the movie and liked it.

First, given most pakistanis on this board claim this movie to be a realistic portrayal of their lives, how likely is it in Pakistan that someone with the social status of Sarmad could have such a rapid and smooth transition into fundamentalism? I was under the impression that its only people from the pakistani hinterland that were turning radical while Pakistan had a core of liberal urban population that is immune from it. Was I wrong?

Second, while I generally liked the movie, cinematically its quite far from the merit that is being claimed for it in this board. I would rather reserve my appraisal of it, as coming from an Indian, it will fall on deaf ears anyway. So I would rather ask you guys -- Is this 'the best' we are going to see from Pakistani cinema?

Of what I managed to read on this board, I am yet to find any usefully critical and unbiased remarks. It's understandable that a movie that is based on issues that you guys have to live with everyday must have made an emotional impact in more ways than one. But given the amount of debate this board has going, shouldn't some Pakistani with a bit more mature understanding of cinema step forward and call the movie good where it is good and bad where it is bad.


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Firstly brother you used two very inappropriate words, fundamentalism & radical.
Radical or fundamentalism in Islam is not a synonym of terrorism. Infact Islam has nothing to do with terrorism, Islam is all about peace. Therefore a person who is a fundamental Muslim is not a terrorist, it means he is a good Muslim who has submitted his will to Allah. He does what pleases Allah. Killing people is not what a fundamental Muslim does.
Now coming to your first question, I don't know how convincing I would sound to you but I'll try. I'm saying this because you have to live in our society to understand this concept.
You see brother if you recall the movie, sarmad was influenced by the maulana because he thought that the guy was teaching him about Islam. If some priest comes to you and preaches Hinduism to you what would you do? Run away? Sarmad in his quest for knowing the truth, getting to the bottom of the music issue, went to that maulana and some other clergies. He wanted to know what were the actual facts. And in that process he was convinced by the maulana's that music is haram. This started his transition period and he now wanted to know more about Islam, he wanted to be a good Muslim. He thought that the maulana was the right person to go to. And as the story moves on you see that how he is being exploited and brain washed.
If a clergy is preaching Islam, regardless of whether he is doing it right or wrong, people who themselves are very much ignorant about Islam think that what he is saying is right because he is supposed to be a religious scholar, a type of authority. I'm sure even Hindus won't consider going against their clergies because they would have this concept that the man is preaching religion. I hope your understanding my point.

Regarding your other two questions, well this movie is a breakthrough after some long lost years, of course it's not perfect but it is a ray of hope for the future. We are all hopeful that our industry will grow. By the way have you watched another Pakistani movie 'Ramchand Pakistani'? If you haven'nt you must. And I know people on this board have got emotional and started comparing KKL with bollywood movies. I think it is totally senseless, too early, but not wrong in the long run!

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I find the online india-pak pissing contests very very irritating and given what we are talking about here, I have full confidence in buffoons from both sides that this thread will also turn into one. So you will understand that I am writing this very reluctantly and only because it seems like you want to have an honest conversation.

# "Radical or fundamentalism in Islam is not a synonym of terrorism....Therefore a person who is a fundamentalist Muslim is not a terrorist".

---Wrong. Fundamentalism means an overtly strict and literal interpretation of religious dogmas instead of looking at the spirit behind them and trying to lead a good and moral life. It would be an inherent aspect in any religious book that was written centuries ago that it would interpret life for that period. And hence fundamentalists who in this day and age want to practice those tenets literally are bound to be anachronistic and cause harm. You don't even have to go outside Islam to understand this. Lets look at 'sufism' (in contrast to say wahabism) which instead of the written word looks at the spirit behind them and is hence never been used to justify killing people. At least I am not aware of any sufi terrorist. So a fundamentalist Muslim may not necessarily be a terrorist but is far more easily inducible to become one.

# "Infact Islam has nothing to do with terrorism, Islam is all about peace."

---Right or wrong, this is besides the point. This line is trumpeted a million times by a million people but don't you see, here what Islam is, is not really the point. The point is what the society (the people, religious leaders and politicians) that practices Islam is. As in how peaceful and moral it wants itself to be. As in how hypocritical and violent it allows itself to be. You agree yourself that it is possible that Islam can be interpreted(even if wrongly) in a way that it can be used to convince a innocent young man to rape a woman or to kill a man. You seem very religious yourself (and you think that Islam is a religion of peace). Doesn't it then hurt you – the manner Islam is being abused to such extent in your very own country for violent means? I have a question for you. What do you think should make a muslim more angry - a cartoon of Mohammed or a man beheading an innocent person in Mohammed's name? Therein lies the difference between following the spirit of a religion and taking it literally for your own selfish/political means.

There are ultrareligious nutcases in every religion and every country (including in India). The point is how well they are tolerated and allowed to flourish and whether they are in a significant enough number to cause harm. In case of most Islamic countries (probably with the exception of Turkey), they are growing in strength by the day and harming Islam, Islamic countries and those around them alike. I guess a lot of Pakistanis think of India as one big RSS boot camp but given the complexity, the diversity and the sheer size of its society, India is still incredibly tolerant and liberal (though not without faults).

# "If a clergy is preaching Islam, regardless of whether he is doing it right or wrong, people who themselves are very much ignorant about Islam think that what he is saying is right because he is supposed to be a religious scholar, a type of authority....He thought that the maulana was the right person to go to. And as the story moves on you see that how he is being exploited and brain washed. "

---I am afraid this still doesn't justify anything. You are basically saying that its okay to follow the Koran blindly; if you find the right maulana, good for you and if you find a bad one, well, tough luck. If you were to come across someone like Maulana Tahiri or Hafeez Saaed yourself, being religious you will have no choice but to let them brain wash you. Come on, man give me something better. You are saying that its sane and justified if someone thinks that everything a religious scholar says is right. How about Sarmad should have used his conscience (not to mention his brain) like Mansoor did? Wouldn't you agree that as human beings we don't really have to look at religious books to know that killing an innocent person or raping a woman is wrong? The difference again remains the same. Examining your own conscience and intelligence while using religion as a guide vs. blindly following religious doctrines. It is at least partially understandable (if at all) that an unemployed uneducated ignorant villager could turn to religion and allow himself to be brainwashed (as they are indeed being brainwashed in reality and in large numbers; I should know they come every so often to my city to kill innocent people). It has been a sort of ray of hope for me that liberal and more sane Pakistanis will eventually prevail and contain them. My question was how likely it is that the same brainwashing is happening among the Pakistani urban (educated and wealthy) population? And it still remains unanswered.

# "If some priest comes to you and preaches Hinduism to you what would you do? Run away?"
---Yes I will. And not only that if he is preaching violence I will see to it that others run away from him too. Let me reassure you that no matter what Pundit or Guru I meet, there is no possible way that I will pick a gun and land at Karachi coast to kill innocent people.

I am sorry to disagree, man, but I honestly think the policy of blindly following every word in your religious books (like Sarmad), which you also seem to ascribe to, is just plain wrong at best and acutely dangerous at worst.

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1. No actually your wrong brother. A fundamentalist is a person who follows and adheres to the fundamentals of the doctrine or theory he is following. A fundamentalist Muslim knows, follows and strives to practise the fundamentals of Islam. A true Muslim does not shy away from being a fundamentalist. He is proud to be fundamentalist Muslim because, he know's that the fundamentals of Islam are beneficial to humanity and the whole world. There is not a single fundamental of Islam that causes harm or is against the interests of the human race as a whole.
Quran is the word of Allah, it was revealed more than 1400 years ago but it is for all times for all generations! If your going to follow the fundamentals of Islam your going to find solution to humanity. :)

2. Your right brother when you say "The point is what the society (the people, religious leaders and politicians) that practices Islam is." It's really unfortunate that a small group bringing bad name to Islam are the one's always highlighted with a lot of propaganda. Our soceity has a whole is not always at the daggers end ready to kill innocent people, it's a small group.

3. Following the quran and following a maulana are two very different things.
What my point was that sarmad, out of his ignorance, went to the maulana instead of understanding islam in light of quran and sunnah. When people have no knowledge about Islam they start thinking the maulana is right, instead of studying and researching themselves. And it is essential for you to understand that sarmad was not being transformed into a terrorist. There is no reference of terrorist training in the movie. He was sent on war against America, he was there in the battlefield. And if you watched the movie closely his conscience was alive. In the scene when he has to kill the enemy to save his life, the person recites kalma when he realizes he's going to die and sarmad just at that point leaves his hold but it's to late! He then grabs his friend and says what kind of jihad is this!
And in the same war sequence you can clearly see he is afraid he says " Mein kisi ko mar nai sakta" meaning "I can't kill anyone"

4. Yes brother that's easy to say right now. Do you think if your priest is going to brainwash you the first thing he is going to do is throw a gun at you and tell you to kill?

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Good points saurabh. you have clearly thought this through...


unfortunately, in any issue regarding south asia, from cricket to nuclear bombs, people cannot refrain from opening their silly mouths and displaying their ignorance and bad grace....everything is always taken personally and reason is a hostage to misdirected passions. thankfully, there hasn't been any in this forum so far....

# "If some priest comes to you and preaches Hinduism to you what would you do? Run away?"
---Yes I will.

hear hear! lol... god's madmen are always to be avoided, whether they wear saffron, green or white. and when in doubt, all priests.
(oops! here they come)

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hear hear! lol... god's madmen are always to be avoided, whether they wear saffron, green or white. and when in doubt, all priests.
(oops! here they come)

Very well said. Run like the devil lol.

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Just wanted to add a few of my own thoughts on this forum. For me the movie worked beautifully and I think it is a profound piece of work. The plot is very mature dealing with a multitude of issues and avoids giving a simplistic interpretation of the issues. The movie really showcases the complexities of the issues faced by pakistani youth and its resultant identity crisis afflicting them. What I liked even more was that the movie did not go for a formulaic fairy tale ending that you would expect a bollywood potboiler (like MNIK) to go for but at the same time ends on a positive note. The movie does falter in the acting department. Most of the acting seems amateurish, but the strong plot does manage to hold the movie together. The film really sores in the music department with great background music and songs.

Saurabh Dhawan Said
"It is at least partially understandable (if at all) that an unemployed uneducated ignorant villager could turn to religion and allow himself to be brainwashed (as they are indeed being brainwashed in reality and in large numbers;"

I think it is absolutely incorrect to say that an educated youth cannot be brainwashed. Though I do agree that it is easier to brainwash an illiterate youth, but that is not because they are uneducated, but it is because they consider themselves to be victims and feel that they have been denied what is rightfully theirs. I have seen educated (including post graduates) Hindus around me with strong feelings of religious fanaticism. Some of the biggest riots in India and the world were engineered and executed by the educated people.

My take on this is that a person becomes vulnerable to be brainwashed, when they feel that they have been the victims of society or circumstances. Educated Americans were willing to slaughter all Muslims in the aftermath of 9/11. Mr Adolf Hitler managed to convince the whole nation of Germany that killing Jews would cleanse the country of all its evil and anyone who opposed it was termed a traitor. That is why in times of distress it is important to stay together. This is where the movie really shines, highlighting the process of brainwashing of Muslims as well as the brainwashing of the Americans. The problem sadly still continues.



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I just want to say thank you for not being a douche and trying to understand the turn of people towards fundamentalism (from a Pakistani).
Unfortunately, in Pakistan (maybe in India too), there is hatred brewed for our neighbors by the media and the clergies. You can educate people, but you cant change a backward culture in one generation. You need generations of educated, exposed populace to reach a tolerance level. Even when educated youngsters go towards fundamentalism, their surrounding people fail to realize and correct the path of that person. Their parents just become happy that their child is "gravitating towards god"

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"My question was how likely it is that the same brainwashing is happening among the Pakistani urban (educated and wealthy) population? And it still remains unanswered. "

To answer your question in more detail, it's very unlikely. You see you have to understand the difference between literacy and education. Literate people might fall prey to the terrorists, but it will be much much more difficult to brainwash truly educated ones. With education comes a sense of morality (usually) and you know what's right and wrong. And you dont need a mullah to tell you that. You can pick up the Quran and find out for yourself. That's what it's there for. Unfortunately, the educated middle class and elite form a very small percentage of the total population, I would say not more than 5%. As the militants offensive is waging on, so is the struggle of the liberal Pakistanis, and I hope it is the latter who prevail.

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And you dont need a mullah to tell you that. You can pick up the Quran and find out for yourself.

Can you tell me what exactly a religious book can tell you that you don't know yourself?

Also, if you pick up a medical journal, if you've never studied medicine, you cannot really understand it. You'll need a maulana to do that for you. Hence, the importance of teachers. So, I don't see a way for these youth to stop themselves from being misguided, as shown in this movie. Besides, at any stage, how would they know if the interpretation given to them is right or wrong?

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its really very difficult to convince on such forum but I must try with the hope it would not turn into anti-Islam war... :))

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Well its all about faith and as a Muslim we have faith on Tauheed (Monotheism).
Now come to the point and I would like to ask a question that if you are medical doctor so have you ability to memorize a medical journal/book of 600-700 pages (word by word)??? I dont know your answer but my answer is "No".
But as I said its all about faith on Allah & Tauheed and this faith actually make the things easier for us. So my answer for the mentioned question is that Allah make things easier to memorize the Quran (word by word) of 600-700 pages. Similarly if any person wanted to understand Quran so Allah will definitely make the way for him, probably in shape of Mulana or people like me ;)(again its about faith on Him).

PS: Quran is a miracle from Allah so at least we can not compare it with medical journal.

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I would like to share one more thing about Quran that as I said its a miracle and what Allah mentioned in It 1400 years ago now the things were/are coming in front of us in the same manner and scientist research on It. (google it for details on some reliable sources).

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Well the rate of converting to Islam is highest among all the religion and if you really wanted to know the reason so google it and listen why people converted to Islam.
I feel very satisfied as a Muslim but same time feel unlucky compare to these converted people who learns the Islam from scratch. I am a born muslim and I am sure these converted Muslims are better understanding of Islam than me.

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In many ways, your post is justifying most of the things you replied to. You base everything on faith. THAT, I think, is the real problem. Faith is good but not everything around faith is good.

I can question your monotheist belief also - if you really believe in the supremacy of God, why do you put restrictions on Him - like he should be one, not many, not be worshipped like this, like that? Why so many restrictions on God? Let him decide how he wants to be worshipped and how he is. You don't need a book to do these. The fact that you look for a book to tell you everything can be the problem.

Again, ultimately, you are confirming my fear - I already said it was difficult to understand any theology without teachers - so a lot depends on the interpretation by teachers. You are really confirming this, aren't you?

Well the rate of converting to Islam is highest among all the religion

This is not a true statement. Christianity is the highest in conversions (which is again a fearful thing because their priests and followers also tend to take literal interpretations of things). Islam is growing only in areas where other religions are barred from conversions and due to increase in population.

Now, again, your statement amuses me. You seem to take pride in numbers like the younger brother in the film. You see, terrorism, lack of honour, lack of honesty, corruption are probably growing faster than islam or christianity. Just because something is happening fast does not mean it is good. You are having a lot of belief in the converts who need to change their name and rituals instead of beliefs.

At the end, you continue to scare me because you base everything on your faith and not on your judgement - this makes you very susceptible to harmful influences.

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You have written a very nicely explained post here.
I commend you for this.

I especially liked these lines among others:

Wouldn't you agree that as human beings we don't really have to look at religious books to know that killing an innocent person or raping a woman is wrong?


My take is slightly different from yours.

I feel people turning to books for spiritual quests may be dangerous or not. I feel it depends on why he was looking for spiritualism in the first place.
This guy Sarmad in the movie was weak and probably needed to be a "good muslim" over everything else. It gave him the strength of numbers behind him. So, although he did things he himself did not like, he felt reassured there were others "like" him. It is a psychological (inferiority / superiority) complex these guys go through that makes them look for those numbers behind them.

Mansoor in the movie was quite a contrast. Although I did not agree with everything he did or said, he was not living in a complex and was therefore not looking for numbers to support him.

We hindus also look for spiritualism here and there. Many hindus are so foolish that they blindly follow rituals. Many resort to books while a few also look for gurus. Quite a few of these gurus are frauds but some of them are popular frauds. :-)

Thankfully, most Hindus avoid gurus and are aware of frauds unless they face a miracle like situation in their own lives.

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Whilst almost turning away from your post when reading your first paragraph, thankfully I stayed around to read the remainder of what you had to say.

To be honest, i thoroughly agree with your argument and your questions. I would not and could not put it better. I am a Christian, and when I attend church, i compare whats being said from the pulpit and how that compares with the teachings of Christ. If I find that the teaching are not from the the Bible, or the Spirit of the Bible, I disregard the teachings and go elsewhere. Revelation teaches us that "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.…" It is plain to see that anyone who teaches their own version of the Gospel of Christ will be subject to a curse.

I know there have been many battles fought over Christianity also, but if you look at the teachings of Christ he said to turn the other cheek. Matthew 5:39 and Luke 6:29 bot tell you this. If a fundamentalist Christian killed someone in the name of Christ, I would fully expect Christian scholars and preachers to denounce this in the strongest possible way. Romans 12:19 and even in the old testament in Deuteronomy 32:35 tells us that "Revenge is Mine sayeth the Lord". As a Christian I don't need to defend my God, He is big enough to take care of himself. If anyone ridicules, writes a cartoon showing their version or understanding of Him or blasphemes Him, it is God who will revenge, not me or any other Christian. I dont need to kill followers of other religions, or kill people who mock mine, I will pray for them. I pray they will come to know the Love that I have found in following a God who's name is Love.

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I guess I am not qualified to talk on Fundamentalism and/or Radical, the central theme of what was asked was, how can someone be preached to go and kill innocent citizens ..

On the movie though, I loved it. It could have been technically better but the plot holds it well.

And as you asked, would you run if a Hindu priest does the same ? I would not only run but make sure I let him know and others as well. I am sure there are religious nuts in my country as well as everywhere in the world but we need to be using our conscience well enough.

I have Ramchand Pakistani & Khuda Kay Liye both the DVDs with me but I have watched only KKL till now, would surely watch RP .

But most Indians and Hindus like me should also understand why someone turns a gun on others, however wrong it is ? Yes, the clergies brainwash these young men, but if you have your Mom/Dad/Brother/Sister killed/abused/harmed by someone in the name of security .. You would be angry, I would be angry, kind of a systematic torture of a religious sect, I dont think one can take it for long, he will retaliate. Thats why governments must not tolerate any kind of injustice , specially systematic.

And regarding US Govts, well the less said the better. They just want war, thats how they make money.

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The whole point of the film was that it is easy to manipulate a person using religion. Sarmad was liberal but wasn't an atheist. The fundamentalists exploited his faith and slowly radicalized him. In fact, this transformation wasn't that rapid. He first quit music after the Mullah's suggestion. Then he grew a beard. Then he married the girl but refused to have intimate relations with her until he was pushed even further. He was also hesitant to resort to violence until he was thrown into the battlefield.

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Hi! I am from Pakistan and this is the first time I saw this movie. I liked it too :)I am really glad that Pakistani film industry has finally produced something one can be proud of after decades.

However, I agree with you there are quite a lot of far fetched comments on this board.

To answer your first question, I think it's very difficult to say really. Fundamentalism is a political weapon, in that sense so is the recruitment into it. Sarmad was brainwashed into believing that what he was doing was right. Te guy who got all this started and was responsible for 911 was an "educated" man as well, in a much more privileged position than most Pakistanis. It doesn't have to be the urban Pakitani class, it can be any country really, as long as they know what gets under your skin or what you want to change about yourself or your society and exploit that.

I certainly hope not! I strongly believe Pakistan has the potential to produce much more cinematic brilliant films. This is a beginning, more talented people are getting much well deserved opportunities and hopefully many more will. Just like there is a lot of talent in the music industry of Pakistan so too is teh case with films. The rigth people just need to step up.

I agree with you. I think if people were to learn anything from the movie, it is too use your head and not let passions take the best of you. Unfortunately it seems many are not doing that. While I loved the script which really hit home (I cried through most of it) I believe the acting could have been much better. The cinematography of the northern areas and Lahore could have been better too. There are so many amazing breathtaking views and locations there which the director should have utilized. I'm supportive of the actors, some of them were brilliant. Some not so much. But you have to appreciate that they approached a controversial topic dauntlessly. Hopefully with more experience and training they'll do much better in the future. Overall, I do believe I can rank it along the sides if not above a lot of Bollywood films I've seen for the past few years. They might be glamorous, but this movie is realistic and intelligent, sort of in the direction of Hollywood which I appreciate.

Hope my comments were useful to you!

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That's a very good post, sir. especially this line:

I think if people were to learn anything from the movie, it is too use your head and not let passions take the best of you."

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