MovieChat Forums > Entre les murs (2009) Discussion > These kids make me wanna puke

These kids make me wanna puke



They live in France, are educated in France, happily accept the advantages of living in France rather than the corrupt, impoverished, war-torn land of their parents, a land of which they probably have no real knowledge of anyway but which they cling to out of misplaced loyalty and ignorance. And yet they still identify themselves as Malian or Moroccan or Algerian whilst professing hatred of all that is french.



Don: No, you are going to have to turn this opportunity yes!

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But unless the kids of today cling to some sense of loyalty for their homelands they will forever remain the corrupt, impoverished lands that you describe.

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The homeland for all of these kids IS France. Their parents may be from these other countries but they, personally, aren't. If they don't follow the norms of French society, they probably won't succeed in life - and then they won't be in a position to ever help their parents' homelands out, either. An unemployed person pining for Mali isn't going to help Mali out very much.

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I'm sorry but you have a very flawed way of looking at reality. It's not easy for people to blindly accept being "French" when French society puts only superficial efforts into accepting these people as true equals and citizens. In fact, France has been immensely more successful with integration and assimilation of immigrant populations than many countries because of their emphasis on unity through language and the idea that overseas French are just as French as mainland French.

They are children also, most of them first or second generation, living in an incredibly urban and largely globalized setting. Why do they have to see themselves as French anyways? Ask MANY people in America if they identify themselves as American, and they will say no, because 'American' has a connotation of nativity and generally whiteness too, I imagine it is similar for French. From the brief exchanges we here, most of these students seem to accept that they are "Frenchmen", that they reside in France and speak French, but are not "French", because they are still connected in part to the cultures of their (or their parents) places of birth. I would hardly say these kids profess hatred for all that is French - they often refer to music genres and artists and other things that are French that they like. And most of them come from places (i.e. the Caribbean, the Maghreb, West Africa, etc) with French colonial connections.

The fact is, that France has always been different then the rest of the industrialized world in the way that it views "foreigners", and this is largely due to colonial and post-colonial times that attempted to assimilate people linguistically and culturally but realistically, had to deal with the fact that these people were not going to simply give up their cultures completely for France (though many have to several degrees).

Your complaint really bothers me, and I think it's unfair and biased. You try moving to Morocco or Mali or wherever, and trying to fit in and "become" Moroccan or Malian or whatever, you'll find that it's not that easy regardless of your own efforts, because it takes time and influence for you to become integrated and for the population to accept you as integrated. You act like France is offering these kids the world on a platter, and sure, industrialized countries offer immigrants many opportunities they may lack in their "corrupt, impoverished, war-torn land of their parents" (which by the way is a disgusting and completely biased way to refer to someone's homeland, completely ignoring the fact that there are pull factors from France in addition to the push factors in these countries that led to immigration), but these kids are living in a reality where they are poor compared to white French, where they are under real pressure to find a place between the French culture they are surrounded by and their home cultures which they are also surrounded by (their families, their homes, etc). Who are you to say their loyality is "misplaced" or that they are ignorant? I think you sound ignorant and I think many of those people would say the same thing about you for expressing such a biased attitude. These kids' identities are far more complicated than you make them out to be.

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Granted my post wasn't as considered as yours and was perhaps a hasty provocation to decent thinking people like yourself. I'm sure you will however agree that those that do assimilate (into any culture) are the ones that tend to thrive. I never said that it was easy to do so.

Assimilation does not and should not mean a nullification of cultural identity, rather an acceptance of a host culture, something which was lacking in many of the kids featured in the film. Remember that scene where the kid says he wouldn't eat in the presence of a woman? Would you say that he should cling to his culture in that instance? Where do YOU draw the line?

It seemed to me that those kids choosing not to assimilate did so in a posturing manner designed to annoy the liberal do-gooders trying to help them - that was what made me really sick.





Don: No, you are going to have to turn this opportunity yes!

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I definitely agree that those who assimilate tend to thrive, but assimilation is not entirely the responsibility of the immigrants. The host culture must also be willing to accept these new people as members as well and realize that cultural identity is not something that can or should be tossed away overnight.

Not eating in front of a woman, which was definitely a cultural thing for that kid (I think it was Boubacar) but I thought it was interesting how he said it was because he respected Rabah's mother. I imagine over time he will learn that he can do so and not be disrespectful or embarras himself in such a situation. I'm just saying that as far as he knows, that is not what he's supposed to do, being taught that from his parents and his culture, and that as a kid he still hasn't experienced many things French culture has to offer. Some of the kids were more willing to call themselves French, or at least push that argument forward with their peers.

Kids like this are also smarter than people give them credit for. The liberal do-gooders may be trying to help them, but they aren't really doing so in a way thats respectful to the kids and I think those liberal do gooders make assumptions about those kids that may not be correct. I think the most important thing is that they are still kids - teenagers in fact, who are at a stage when they are going to rebel against the norms pushed upon them by grownups. They just have to deal with a double-whammy because of the different cultures affecting them.

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That is the difficult reality of immigrant families though. There is another good film based upon this called East Is East, check it out if you can.

You have parents who were not born in France, who do not speak the language, and thus raise their household in the ways of their own country, in this case Mali. The kids grow up knowing Malian standards and customs whilst living in France, and end up very confused. They feel their culture is Malian and this is the identity they cling to. They are no different really to the goth boy, they are just expressing themselves in the way they see fit as teenagers do.

It is a very difficult subject with no real simple answer, but one which the film highlights very well.

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offer immigrants many opportunities they may lack in their "corrupt, impoverished, war-torn land of their parents" (which by the way is a disgusting and completely biased way to refer to someone's homeland, completely ignoring the fact that there are pull factors from France in addition to the push factors in these countries that led to immigration)


Disgusting? You haven't seen disgusting. Trust me, you don't want to. Maybe nobody should, really. For one, disgusting is racial diversity, which leads to genocide, after all - if no laws against mixing are in effect.

Completely biased? It's the truth. A Third World country is a Third World country. It is what it is. You said it yourself, they are offered many opportunities they may lack in their homelands. Do I really have to spell it out for you that this is exactly the blueprint for a corrupt, impoverished, war-torn land?

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But they're NOT trying to fit in.

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