French Language vs English Subtitles - Bit of a Spoiler

simon,

Hang on, don't you mean the reggae term "Ska'"?

Skank, here in America, across the many dialects and slang of our land, means a girl that's a bit "down-market" if you will -- dirty (Un-hygenic), sleazy, of questionable repute, wanton.



-- Just who is "Sacha Fierce", & why is Beyoncé copping her ID? --

As a bilingual American/Swiss who just moved back to the US after living in France for a few months (but who saw Entre les Murs in French in France when it was released) I'd say that 'skank' definitely works, particularly as far as far as the vocabulary of American youth goes.

Translation and subtitling really must be an incredibly difficult task....every word has so much social and cultural context associated with it that even a dictionary defined translation will not always carry the same weights and connotations, especially with familiar/slang words.

Living in France and watching VO American films with original dialogue and French subtitles was very interesting for me...I loved seeing how they translated American slang into French and how the tone of conversations could change and how humor of jokes could disappear was very interesting. I also like watching the American versions of French films with subtitles on just to see how they did the translation.


this behavior is gonna get me nowhere but straight to hell

As a Frenchman living in NYC, I've noticed a funny translation mistake in the movie :-) At the end, when the teacher asks the student what they've learned over the year, one of them comes up with the Pythagorean theorem. In French, he recites something like "lorsque la somme des carres des cotes d'un triangle est egale au carre de l'hypothenuse, le triangle est rectangle", which is correct. But the translation in the movie was literal and the spectators laughed when they read "that the triangle was rectangle". "triangle rectangle" in French = "right triangle" in English!!!

Wish I'd read your post before posting further up.

I'm interested too by your use of "skank", because as I said in my other post, I'm British, and I didn't know what it meant. I could of course get from the context a sense of the meaning, that was okay, but it had absolutely no resonance for me (other than as I said before that it is used in reggae music to describe a guitar style).

Given that the word seems to have confused viewers on both sides of the pond, why did you pick it?

I sense that the French had a level of ambiguity to it, that it could be a word which might offend some and not others, and the use of something like "bitch" might have conveyed that - it can be used to mean "catty" ("Oh so and so is always bitching", "He's a real bitch about his work" etc.), and "slutty" ("The silly little bitch is no better than she's worth!!"). "Bitching" even expresses positive sentiment in some slang - think surfer-dude type talk...

"Skank" I sense has absolutely no shade of meaning, and may not actually mean anything in many places...

Finally, some sense!

I'm also a subtitler and get so frustrated by people who criticise them, as in 99.9999% of cases these people have no clue whatsover as to what they are talking about!

As far as the word 'pétasse' goes, it's never an easy one as the French has a double meaning. There is indeed a sexual element, which is why Esmeralda says 'it means prostitute, doesn't it?'. However, this element is not always meant by the speaker. It's similar to the word 'putain', which also has a sexual element to it but if a person exclaims 'oh, putain' this element is not present. It's more like 'oh, *beep* The sexual part is not meant.

However, the most important point about this part of the film was that the teacher did NOT call the girls 'pétasses'. He said 'vous aviez une attitude de pétasse'. This means (literally) 'you had a pétasse attitude', or 'you behaved like a pair of bitches'. See the difference:

- he's an idiot
- he's being an idiot

The two are not the same, and the same applies here. This was why it was unfair for him to be ganged up on by the pupils and authorities as the stupid girls, unable to tell the difference, went and told everyone he had actually called them 'pétasses'. So the next thing is, the teacher's colleagues are asking him why he called pupils pétasses - which he did not do.

Ironically, this distinction appears to have been missed by almost everyone on this board.

For the translation, I only found out it was 'skank' from reading this board as I watched it in French only. Personally I would have chosen one of two options: 1) the teacher could have said 'the way you were bitching in there...' and the girls would then say 'he called us bitches'; or 2) the teacher could have said 'you behaved like a pair of slappers'. Option 2) would, of course, only work in the UK. However, I can see why you chose 'skank' and think it works.

As far as the teachers' council goes, this is a widespread part of French school life and there is nothing strange about it to French people. Personally I find it amazing that they let students hear the teachers' comments about their fellow pupils, but in this instance it was not unusual as it happens in France. The two elected reps are treated like adults for the duration of the meeting, although I still think the head should have told them to shut up.

Interesting thread, particularly reading posts from translators and hearing about how they work.

I'm coming into this a bit late, but the dvd I saw last night used the words "sluts" which is confusing when people here are talking about the word skanks. Have different versions now been released?

In the UK, my understanding of the word slut is that it's harsh and completely inappropriate for a teacher to use in a classroom. It basically has two meanings: a dirty, untidy woman; someone who does not look after her home, children properly. This is used in a similar way to slovenly. The second meaning is an easy woman; a woman who sleeps with everyone/anyone.

Marin was not suggesting that the two girls were behaving like they were dirty or untidy so the viewer can only take it the way the girls did - that he was suggesting that they were behaving as though they were easy, which is inappropriate.

Skank has become more commonly used in the UK over the last few years. It's interesting to read that it may have started in the USA as I've often wondered where it came from. I had only ever heard young people using it, although it's becoming more commonplace with older people. The way I have heard the term skank used was to describe someone (usually a girl) as being dirty, filthy etc but not in a sexual sense - more that she was so filthy you might pick up something.

Thinking it through now, neither word seems correct. The girls were behaving like silly little girls; laughing, giggling, eating whilst acting as class reps in the meeting. I would have asked them to act appropriately, or to leave. It felt like the teachers were condoning it by not dealing with it.

I don't know if any schools in France work with the committee approach, which was really interseting. That question aside, surely there have to be rules around confidentiality? It didn't seem right or reasonable that the class reps tell their fellow students what was said in the meeting to the degree that they did.

Felicitas - I was not suggesting that slut was a translation of petasse. I was referring back to the original post and subsequent other comments that suggested that skank was a British English as opposed to US English word and therefore unsuitable for US subtitles. I was pointing out that it was not a word in commom British English use , but that we are aware of it because of its use in Australian programmes aired here, and that it is taken to mean roughly the same as slut.

I am not questioning the original translation of petasse into skank - that is not for me to judge (although I do speak French, and I'll ask my daughter who is studying in Paris at the moment what she thinks !) I appreciate that translation is a very, very delicate art and I have spent part of my professional career re-editing wonky or insensitive translations - including those written in US English aimed at a British English audience !!

I watched the movie last night at the Angelika and it's the Cannes version with the mistake for Pythagreon theorm.. It added a little humor although it wasn't logical at the time. I think using "Skank" worked, although the C-word would have been more apporiate if the girls were older. I loved the movie although it probably could have been longer, but it got it's message across.

I'd hardly call 'biscuits' slang. More just a word. In fact 'cookies' is more a slang word for biscuits in UK English. (Not intended as an insult. I just don't like to see English as spoken by the English reduced to the status of 'slang'. I'm a pedant, I know.)

Well, as I said elsewhere, "skank" is a hopeless translation for me, as it hasn't any meaning to me in English, other than as a term from Reggae music; although it was clear from the context that it was meant to be "bad", it certainly doesn't have any element of ambguity to it, which left me not knowing it was the teacher or the girls who were telling the truth.
I think the suggetsion that "bitch" would have been better holds true: the teacher would have been complaining about them "bitching" all the time, which is impolite of him - and all that talk of using the correct register earlier in the film would have held true - and the girls claiming that he had called them "bitches", which could be taken to be impugning their sexual reputations. It would be within your absolutely correct assertion that transliteration often beats a straight translation.