MovieChat Forums > Entre les murs (2009) Discussion > People are right to question his teachin...

People are right to question his teaching methods


Being a teacher myself, I agree with a huge amount that you say in this, but in reference to the last point that you make saying: 'I have to laugh at other reviewers who "question his teaching methods." All we see is discussions of literature and student writing, what is questionable about that? The first "method" of good teaching is to be engaging and involve the student.' This is total rubbish. There were countless things questionable about his teaching methods:

1) He called girls 'skanks' - that's name calling and totally unacceptable, despite what anger he might feel. I've wanted to lose the rag lots of times but you don't let yourself cause that's part of being a professional.

2) As he was their teacher, he ought to have dealt with the disgraceful behaviour of the two girls in the teachers meeting.

3) He physically grabbed at students one a couple of occasions, which is simply not allowed.

4) He engaged children in arguments in full view of the whole class, thereby inflaming the situation, instigating arguments where they could have been avoided and losing face in the eyes of those looking on.

5) He should not have let those two girls stand there listening while he was speaking to the girl who had refused to read.

6) He should have called the girl back after she walked out saying 'I didn't mean it' because he totally lost the confrontation by letting her go.

7) Rather than talk down to her telling her to apologise using a specific sentence, he should have talked to her heart-to-heart and try to establish respect for one another. He needed to make the girl feel slightly embarrassed and genuinely sorry for having spoken to him that way, because in essence she is letting herself down by behaving like that.

8) He should not have gone out into the yard to confront the two girls and make it even worse.

9) He allowed the students to horse around consistently causing 'low-level interruption' - by allowing this, it inevitably led to worse behaviour.

10) He should not have engaged the students in conversation about his private life (when asked about his sexuality) because it's simply not relevant to their lessons, none of their business and it was really disrespectful of the student to bring it up in the first place.

I could go on and on, i think the teacher in the movie meant well but he caused (or made worse than they needed to be) most of the situations in the movie and he simply was not cut out to teach in that tough an environment, if at all, despite how good he was at teaching actual lessons.

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Who said the movie was meant to be a inspirational? Or a guide of good teaching?

And please I wished posters would stop saying that teachers are not allowed to grab students, They ARE ALLOWED in lot of European countries, and they are certainly allowed in France. I know from experience.

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You do know that this movie takes place in France, right? So perhaps things are different than in your own country.

You do know that this is a movie, right? They call it fiction for a reason

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Oh my gosh, France is not a monolith. Every teacher is not exactly the same all over France. And inappropriate behavior is inappropriate behavior. There is a universal message in this film for sure.

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and who said your ways are the best ways, each teacher has his way some like it and some don't, for instance discussing personal matters make teachers closer to their student, there is no should or should not, there are no absolutes here.

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OP you fail miserably at the critical analysis of this film. Let's hope you teach something like Maths or Science and not a subject that requires creativity and a deeper understanding.

The point of this film is that people _are not_ robots, they cannot be perfect every time. As another poster mentioned the film is not a guide or bible for good teaching methodology or philosophy. Personally I found many similarities between the teacher in this film and the best teachers I had when I was educated.

He was right to point out the fact the girls were immature. I think the translation of the French word to 'skank' failed. Perhaps something less abrasive and slightly more ambiguous such as 'hussy' would have fitted better, or even 'tart'. One of the major points in my opinion were that the students took his actions out of context and used it as a motive to misbehave and cause tension. I think this was a comment on how society has given such powers to people so young, complaints by students are extremely serious in this day and age. Immature children are given the power to ruin careers just for petty vengeance (the young often mistake criticism for maliciousness). The film was asking the question, should teachers we equal or superior than their students?

Grabbing students not allowed? I think a major problem in English speaking school systems is that there is such an absence of anything tactile between student and teacher. This puts a huge divide between them. In many cultures it is not frowned upon to touch children, it is only our own perverted society that has demonised it. I work in South Korea teaching the same ages of this film and it is a world away. Sure the society is pretty homogenous so there are a lack of racial tensions such as this classroom but putting your hand on a students shoulder, pulling them around if they misbehave, ruffling their hair and even putting your arm around them does not bat an eyelid. Whereas I know for a fact I'd look like an alien for doing it in the UK, most likely be branded a paedophile as well. Our system in some ways is ridiculous.

As for how he handled the student that would not read, he was angry. She was a good pupil previously and for a reason unbeknown to him she turned sour. The will was already lost by the time she revoked her apology, it would have just been pettiness to bring her back. I assume you are an extremely anal person with a pretty large sense of self righteousness. That at least is how I understand you from your post. Nearly every point is about discipline, which wasn't the point of the film.

In you're final paragraph you basically say he was a bad teacher and caused more harm than good. To you my friend I say you were blind to this film because you think your stern, boring method of petty discipline is helping students. This teacher had a heart, was trying to engage students and make better people out of them. I want my children to grow up with real people like this man teaching them, I don't want some sanitized teacher giving them a perceived education. Just because a classroom is quiet and obedient does not mean any learning of worth is going on.

I could go on also but I'd just be regurgitating everything I have already written. I think you need to open your eyes to the new world around you. I just prey to god you don't teach English Literature.

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I just PRAY to God you don't teach English grammar.

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probably you are american, canadian, irish, scottish, australian, new zealander, welsh or northern irish. so some of your listings do not apply in France. English speaking countries' teaching style is really different from other countries

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I like the way you list as many English speaking countries as you can....except England.... :-p

"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind"

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I agree with the initial poster! Sure..this movie wasn't about presenting the ultimate teaching method..but the way the teacher acted only served to infuriate the students. Cornering them, making them do things that they don't want to, insulting them, making fun of them, disrespecting them.. If this was a real teacher he would probably have been the one being expelled. He should really catch up on contemporary pedagogical approaches and developmental psychology!

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[deleted]

I'm not sure when the word 'skank' took on the meaning of prostitute, but when I was growing up the connotation was more about behavior in the sense of how you comported yourself in public situations, i.e., being rude, loud, annoying and disruptive, exactly how these girls were behaving in the meeting. What I want to know is why they weren't called on their behavior and dismissed from the meeting which was serious and not a laughing matter. I also don't understand why student reps aren't made to understand their role and the ethics of confidentiality with regard to their job. If all student reps are going to do is tell their fellow classmates the details, well they might as well conduct the session as an Open Town Hall-like meeting.

Also, am I the only one who caught the nuance that he did not call them 'skanks' but instead said they 'behaved' like ones? There is a difference. He was trying to call attention to their behavior as disruptive. I certainly agree he should not have used that word or even discussed that in front of the whole class. He lost control of the class. But the problem with kids is that they can be irrational and behave as such and so they immediately took what he said out of context and turned it into a discussion about the teacher instead a discussion/critique of inappropriate student behavior. In short both students and teacher were WRONG!

One more thing, the commens here about immigrants are racist and flat-out offensive. This kind of behavior is going on in a lot of white schools. The movie was about how the educational structure is broken. To say that we didn't behave that way is precisely the problem. Of course we didn't because our parents disciplined us. This is not to defend the students. Souleymane was a problem. And in truth being returned to his village is exactly what he needed. But even the students that were not disruptive were lost. And the school was not helping them. Until we acknowledge that ALL of pop culture as well as the socio-economic issues confronting our society today are destroying our youth, things are only going to get worse.

The school system is a dinosaur! CHANGE IT!

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I'm not sure when the word 'skank' took on the meaning of prostitute
Curiously this word was translated by the English subtitles as slut, which is akin to calling a woman a whore.
Also, am I the only one who caught the nuance that he did not call them 'skanks' but instead said they 'behaved' like ones? There is a difference. He was trying to call attention to their behavior as disruptive. I certainly agree he should not have used that word or even discussed that in front of the whole class.
Yes I noticed but such a distinction is going to be lost on fired up 13/4 year olds when the teacher uses an inflammatory description. Rather than take issue with their behaviour at the meeting it would have been better if he had addressed their sharing of what happened in the way they did. Also he denied what he'd said about Souleyman, placing that on other teachers, only for Esmerelda to pipe up, rather smugly, a version of what he'd said. All round he lost.
I give my respect to those who have earned it; to everyone else, I'm civil.

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You've (The OP) missed the whole point which was he, like no real teacher, WAS NOT PERFECT!

See how the school helped him cover up his error in insulting the girls, his guilt where his actions by letting himself get out of control in the classroom ended with the expulsion and possible deportation of a student who he knew could do well when encouraged.

It was a film as much about his shortcomings and how he couldnt change their lives much for the better as it was about the behaviour of the students involved.

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Everyone seems to be attacking you for criticising the actions of the teacher. Your criticisms are valid. I completely agree with you.

"Ce qui n’est pas clair, n’est pas français." - Rivarol

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You can criticize the teacher all you want but the film never set out to try and portray the teacher as a "good" teacher. He was simply a teacher, dealing with what he had.

So what if his methods weren't appropriate, it's not like the film wanted to show it otherwise. I was watching the film, hoping he would do something differently, but he never did. That's what made me love the film so much. While I really liked the character, I hated him just as much.

The film's purpose was not to show us what teachers should and shouldn't do.

Mitch

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thanks bordeaux boy, most of the people doing the criticising are not teachers themselves, have simply no experience of dealing with rowdy students themselves and therefore don't know enough about the subject to be passing judgement.

for all of those who said 'the teachers poor methods were not the point of the movie' i never said they were, if you read my original post you would have seen that my post was in fact a response to a post by another person who viewed the film and had been moaning at other people criticising the teacher's methods on the message board by trying to say the teacher had done nothing wrong. i didn't agree with that at all so i posted my post. i am fully aware that the film was actually trying to show that teachers can be flawed and make mistakes. this teacher made a hell of a lot of mistakes though that real teachers would recognise nowadays and avoid. i guess they were using artistic license to make it more dramatic but the majority of teachers who know what the hell they're doing wouldn't have made even half his bad decisions.

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Clearly your special subject is "Completely missing the point"

"I guess they were using artistic license" -doh ! perhaps they were - it's a film.

the real problem is with those such as yourself who claim to be teachers - yet totally lack understanding, empathy or humanity - and pompously pass judgement without the semblance of an appreciation of the cultural environment from which the film had emerged.
At best your post merits a " D-, must research the subject , and try harder to understand other cultures "

And so it goes

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how sad that you spend your time insulting people on the internet, u must have little to do with urself. lack understanding, empathy or humanity? u don't no the first thing about me so why not keep ur comments film related dickhead

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Your language tells us all that we need to know about you.

No mention of the film, art or humanity.

Just puerile insults- and that's ignoring the appalling grammar and misspelling

Symptomatic of the obstacles our children have to overcome if you're the kind of teacher they're faced with.

I'll get back to my rich and rewarding life -leaving you to pound your empty-headed fury out on your keyboard.

And so it goes.

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u have been ignored edrisi so i dont have to read anymore of ur drivel

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I agree with a great deal of what you said. While many in this thread are unnecessarily calling you out for "missing the point of the movie," the one thing that really bothered me after the film was how he lost his cool in the important confrontation that led to the expulsion. I'm not sure how things work in France, as I have never heard of "class reps" sitting in while students' grades and behavior are discussed, but it seems to me that the discussion of these meetings is a tremendous breach of trust and should have been dealt with immediately. Instead of losing his cool and insulting his students, Mr. Marin should have immediately removed the girls from their class rep position and brought them to his superiors for possible disciplinary action. It seems clear that he acted absolutely improperly, and while many of you have correctly pointed out that Mr. Marin was not supposed to be a perfect teacher, that does not mean his teaching style cannot be commented upon against how an ideal teacher should act. He was irresponsible and a poor role model for his students, and that is contrary to his responsibilities as a teacher.

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unfortunately the OP seems to have copied and pasted the bureaucratic teacher's manual from her local educational institution. I am a teacher, and I completely ignore that manual (so do most effective teachers) and its ridiculous political correctness.

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right so, stupid comments about the 'manual' aside you are basically saying that you do the opposite.

You call your pupils skanks, would let the two girls in the meeting away with their behaviour, physically grab at students, engage children in arguments in full view of the whole class, humiliate children by having others stand by and listen while you discuss their behaviour with them, let children misbehaving have the last word, talk down to your pupils by asking them to repeat a pointless sentence in apology, go out into the yard to confront girls, allow your pupils to horse around and cause consistent 'low-level interruption' and engage your pupils in conversation about your private life?

clearly by coming out with that stupid comment, you are indicating that you would either ignore all these things or just be nicey nicey to them and hope they might change.

if you actually took the time to think about my points you'd see it was all focused on mutual respect. the children in my class love being in it, they tell me so almost every day of the week cause i make lessons so interesting for them. so im not the tyrant that u seem to be suggesting.

at the same time though, if you dont have rules/respect in a classroom, the kids havent got the right security and respect for themselves and each other to learn to the best of their ability. You? well good luck to you cause you're obviously one of the many *beep* teachers out there, world's full of them. if you're not fired soon for an allegation made against you, then you may be lucky enough to steal under the radar in a cosy cushy number that ends in a forgettable career.

pupils will comment on their time in your class by saying either 'i cant remember her that much' or 'yeh she let children away with so much, she was a walkover, we didnt get anythin done that year'

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Quite right. Even ignoring his obvious misconduct, he is a pretty poor teacher. So many times watching this I was getting so frustrated as he misse opportunity after opportunity to help these students develop.

However, I do realise this is part of the point of the film before any of the mor silly posts from earlier in the thread start to be repeated.

I wonder what the experience of watching this is like for people away from education for years, neither clearly feeling like the students or the teacher...

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Yeah this guy didn't always do the right thing as a teacher. Most of the time he was able to keep his cool and reason with his students when they were misbehaving or being rude. However when he lost his cool by calling the girls petasse (and skank is a good translation for it, or slut, they basically mean the same thing to me), he was way out of line. Even in France it isn't acceptable to call girls by that word.

Honestly it was a difficult situation for the students and the teacher.

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