MovieChat Forums > To verdener (2008) Discussion > Filled with inaccuracies

Filled with inaccuracies

posted 13 years ago by SnookTheCrook
28 replies | jump to latest

I wanted to give this movie a chance, but it's filled with inaccuracies that just annoyed me. For example, the "elders" in the congregation were laughable. To those of you who are Witnesses, I'm sure you'll know why!

Another thing that irks me is how people act as if they were enslaved when this is not the case, human beings are allowed to date whomever they please, make friends with whomever they want and practice whatever beliefs they want to practice! If you want to date someone who isn't a Jehovah's Witness you're free to do so, just leave the religion and do it! You're not chained! Why do people complain that it's a cult? No one is forcing you to stay, you have free will. Besides, why fight so hard to stay there if they don't share your beliefs/values, people who stay for years despite not wanting to be there and/or desiring to have a boyfriend/girlfriend who isn't a Jehovah's Witness are not only silly but complaining for reasons that are easily repaired.

The Jehovah's Witness religion is very similar to a job in the sense that you can take a job and your job can be terminated if you don't meet that job's requirements! Similarly, Jehovah's Witnesses have certain standards you must meet, if you don't you shouldn't be a part of that religion. If you're unhappy with a job, you could quit at any moment. The Jehovah's Witness religion is the same, if you're unhappy, you're free to LEAVE, I assure you, no one will stop you.

People who stay and complain about being "brain-washed" are just weak people afraid to leave.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ralstowa 13 years ago

I have to disagree with your interpretation of Jehovah Witnesses. My mother is currently a witness and the elders are very strict with whom she can see, what she can do etc. I feel like she is a teenager again. I am not a witness; it is this reason alone I could never be subjected to their strict rules.

I have known people who were witnesses and when they strayed from the "truth" their family held interventions. So it is not as simplistic as just quiting the religion, or leaving the congregation.

[–] SnookTheCrook 13 years ago

I mean no disrespect to you or your mother, but she's a grown woman, if she doesn't agree with something, she doesn't have to listen. The elders are there to guide the congregation, but if for whatever reason you don't agree you can freely and openly disagree. If they treat her like a teenager and she allows it then that's on her!

It IS as simple as quitting. If she doesn't, it's because there's something there she can't leave behind. She should identify what that is and then decide whether she can live without it. That's why so many people don't just leave when they probably should!

[–] princesschaos-748-777596 11 years ago

What you fail to mention is, if she doesn't listen, she will be punished. Yes you have a choice. do as you are told, or you can leave. But if you don't follow the rules, you are cut off from everyone you love. I don't see that as a choice.

[–] J_Jammer 10 years ago

As you yourself have strict rules you abide by.

Hypocrite.

[–] samuel-derous 13 years ago

It is unfortunately a little more complicated than stated in your reply... Indeed the elders seem a little out of time, I date them back to the '80, when it wasn't that uncommon to find elders spying if nothing bad was happening within the bounderies of unmarried people.
But off course for that we should look at how the young woman saw them, because that is what is important... A movie doesn't want to show you something neutral. In this movie you see the elders how a young girl, at her own feeling being deprived of her freedom is being haunted. In reality the elders will have nothing more than wanted her back in the congregation, and will probably have been uneasy with the whole case them selves.
But off cource, a lot of elders are very strict, alone for the fact that their appointment could be taken away from them when there are problems in there own household.

That said. First of as a Jehovah's witness you are not free to have a relationship with whom you choose, if that person is not a member of Jehovah's witnesses. If you do so they will ask you to break the relationship... If you don't you can be signed, when someone is signed he is considered dangerous relation.

Secondly. It is not always that simple as stated in the reply above to leave. That is what is movie, and the girl who modelled for this movie is trying to explain. That is why she is doing so much effort not to be expelled. Like the end shows, expells means that most of the congregation, even your own familymembers, mother, father, sisters... will shun you.
If you have lived your whole life as a Jehovah's witness, been born into a family of Jehovah's witnesses, your whole world resolved around that; all your friends are Jehovah's witnesses, so when you step out, you will have noone left, and that is what's making it so hard for some to leave.

Can je disagree? No you can't... When baptised you will answer some thirty questions to see if you agree... Only when three elders agree that you agree enouph it will be possible to be baptised.
Lastly, if later on you change your mind on something of those topics, if you don't repent, and don't keep quiet, you will be expelled.

Some Jehovah's witnesses really have to read their organised book thoroughly!

But according to me that is not what that movie is about. Everybody who knows the teachings of Jehovah's witnesses, knows this girl is doing something wrong according to her religion... But it is about the inner struggle that she faces to choose between her relgion or her lover, later on this choice changes, then it becomes the choice between her family and her lover.
And at the end it is only she who chooses for herself.

[–] SnookTheCrook 13 years ago

1. "A lof of elders are very strict."

Yes, some can be, but you are allowed to disagree with them and you won't be punished for it. The only time you should worry about something like that is if you violate a Bible principle (Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife, etc.).

2. "as a Jehovah's witness you are not free to have a relationship with whom you choose, if that person is not a member of Jehovah's witnesses"

I've stated multiple times, that if you wish to date someone who isn't a Jehovah's Witness, why would you stay there? Feel free to leave, and date whomever you want freely! You also stated that if you date outside of the Jehovah's Witness religion, you can be "signed," could you explain what that means, I'm not sure I understand you. What I will say is that if you choose to date someone who isn't a Jehovah's Witness most other JW's will be very careful around you and possibly keep their distance and/or limit their association with you. You have to understand that these people are trying to stay within their beliefs. More often than not, people who date a non-JW end up leaving the JW belief shortly after. Other JW's don't want to be "dragged down" with you, they wish to remain in their belief.

I'll put it this way, if you're trying to leave alcoholism behind, you HAVE to leave behind your alcoholic friends, or else you risk falling back into your old habits. Similarly, people who are trying to remain in "good standing" will most likely limit their dealings with the person who is willingly choosing to date a non-JW. Why would any JW risk their Biblical beliefs to accomodate someone who clearly no longer believes the same way? It makes no sense.

3. "When baptised you will answer some thirty questions to see if you agree [...] if later on you change your mind on something of those topics, if you don't repent, and don't keep quiet, you will be expelled."

Yes, prior to being baptized you will be "quizzed" regarding how much Bible knowledge you have in order to see if you understand what it means to be a JW, and the responsibilities that accompany that. (killing = bad, drunkenness = bad, etc.) If you get baptized (thus, becoming a JW), then you understand that it is your responsibility to NOT do any of these things. Here's what bugs me about people who complain about the JW system, these people KNEW what they were getting into, if you no longer agree, leave the church, and guess what? You will survive, no one will die. You will be free. Yay for you!

What's the problem? There is NONE. The people who have a problem are the ones who want their cake and to eat it too. They wish JW's were like catholics, or other religions where you "sin," confess, and everything's peachy keen. You go back to living your life with absolutely no consequences. They don't want to be held accountable for their mistakes. Grow up, and either accept your punishment or leave. That is my point, no one is holding you back. You can leave and be at peace.

4. "Can je disagree?"

Yes, I can. It's truly hard to be a JW, and when you leave you risk leaving behind all your friends within the congregation. No one is disputing that, but aren't there people outside of the congregation that you could be friends with? It's not like Jehovah's Witnesses are the only people on the planet.

5. "it is about the inner struggle that she faces to choose between her relgion or her lover, later on this choice changes, then it becomes the choice between her family and her lover. And at the end it is only she who chooses for herself."

You yourself stated the key word multiple times! The word is choice. It's as simple as that, you either choose to abide by the rules or not. You choose to stay or leave. You choose to obey or not. So yes, it's a personal choice and no one - NOT THE ELDERS, NOT YOUR FAMILY - can make it for you.

[–] Ashmare 13 years ago

You conveniently omitted the part about families shunning you as well. If someone were raised as a JW their entire lives, once they leave, every person they ever associated with (as JWs are in their cultlike distrust of associating with outsiders) and any means of support (familial support especially) will be gone. It isn't just a simple choice.

[–] SnookTheCrook 13 years ago

No, I didn't "conveniently" omit anything. I'm sorry to anyone whose family has "shunned" them. However, not all witnesses do this. It mostly depends on what sin you committed. Let's say you committed murder (for example) and you had to go to jail for life. Your family could opt NOT to ever visit you in jail, witness or not. So even though you can't control your family, YOU CAN control your own actions. The fact remains: it IS a choice to committ a crime or not, to behave or not. So, your family "shunning" you can be avoided by just behaving and living according to the rules you agreed to follow. If your mind has changed then live with the consequences of your choice.

[–] raythorne2005 12 years ago

Would you like the quotes from your own literature that prove you wrong? Everyone disfellowshipped or disassociated is *supposed* to be shunned or you risk being disfellowshipped yourself. I know someone who was disfellowshipped for eating lunch with his landlord who was disassociated.

[–] swatter 13 years ago

He also conveniently omits the real joke with the word 'choice'. We only can make choices based on what we know. When you are raised in a religion that attempts to isolate you from outsiders and teaches you from birth that God will kill you if you ask the wrong questions or disobey (a simple google search for Jehovah's Witnesses and Armageddon will reveal the kinds of imagery JW's share with their children from birth, images of cityscapes being blown apart and people drowning, falling out of buildings, etc), you will never realize you had a choice, because you've been kept ignorant and in the dark all your life, and hence you aren't prepared to survive in the real world. Nevermind the real fear of having to lose everyone you've known all your life, just because you can no longer conscientiously agree with their beliefs. Choice, my butt. Comparing a belief system that seeks to control your entire life to a job that you can choose to quit is a laughable comparison, at best.

[–] SnookTheCrook 13 years ago

If you are a child, then the people isolating you from the world are YOUR PARENTS, and NOT any religion. It's as simple as that. It is your parent's responsibility to make those choices for you at that age. Whether your parents are JW's or not, it is their job to guide you through life. This means removing any associations they might deem inappropriate for you. So if you're saying this is something exclusive to JW's then your statement is wrong. It seems like you want to lump all JW parents in the same category. That would be like saying all catholics are pedophiles, or all Muslims are terrorists. That is simply not true.

JW's, just like you, live in the real world, where we deal with outsiders on a daily basis, at school, at work, in every aspect of our lives, so how exactly are we "isolated?" I don't understand that. If your parents deem an association NOT good for you, then that's their prerogative and they can choose to remove that person from your life.

No, JW's don't terrorize their children into obedience. Once again, I'm sorry if your parents did this to you. Most JW children are taught to behave and to be obedient because they love god and they love their parents. There are thousands of religions that teach their children that if they sin they'll burn eternally in hell or they won't go to heaven, etc.. Yet I don't see you criticizing them!! JW's do not believe in hell nor do they threaten their children with this type of punishment. Like I said, if your parents did this to you by showing you "scary" imagery, then I'm sorry that they were (it sounds to me) a little unbalanced. No parent should do that to their child! Period.

Obviously, we're never going to see eye to eye, but I apologize for any crazed JW's you may have met. It seems to me that you've met quite a few.

[–] swatter 13 years ago

I respect that you've stayed polite in your response. First, there's no need to go into other religions here, because you already know, and because the subject at hand is this film and the arguments you've made.

Whatever your personal experience may be, the organization does have an agenda and pretty much everything I'm saying can be supported merely by skimming through its literature.

JW's don't believe in hellfire but to say they don't threaten divine punishment is inaccurate. The literature is full of apocalyptic imagery of people dying in the streets, being executed by God at Armageddon (such as the following image).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_U5gJCqvoi90/TOWgvUcylCI/AAAAAAAAANg/EQRkJWFhLaY/s1600/death_to_all_at_armageddon.jpg

The organization itself strongly discourages association with outsiders throughout all its literature and media. Kids are taught from birth to distrust 'Worldly People' who are under the influence of Satan and are shown videos (such as the young people ask) in which all outsiders are portrayed as untrustworthy and back-stabbing heathens that will lead you into mortal sin, and rejection by your community and organization and hence execution by God at Armageddon (like in the above photo)... Extracurricular activities are always discouraged in religious services. Education beyond high school is strongly discouraged. "Independent thinking" is discouraged throughout all the literature. Girls are taught they must be submissive to men. When kids have this slammed at them every single day from birth up, encouraging an us-and-them mentality, a naivety of the outside world, this is isolation. Hence when kids try to leave they run the risk of being extremely hurt because of their naivety of the outside. The whole refusing to talk to people who've left the organization or who have been kicked out just highlights the (defensive) isolationist mentality.

Anyway we will not see eye to eye on this. I've seen too many people hurt, and I've been around it for several decades, I've read lots of the literature, so I know what the organization promotes. I'm glad that you are happy where you are, but to say the girl made 'personal choice' as if she ever had the full ranges of choices fairly made available to her in the first place, is a little off to me somehow.

[–] SnookTheCrook 13 years ago

JW's are taught that the "wicked" will die when Armaggedon comes, but we're also taught that only God can judge who is wicked and who is not. Which is why we go door to door talking to people about the Bible. This means there are tons of non-witnesses who are not wicked and whom I choose to associate with.

We are not discouraged from associating with outsiders, we are told to be careful with our associations. From there it is our choice whom we decide to associate with. That is why I say it is indeed a personal choice we have to make. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if someone is violating Bible principles, it wouldn't be wise for me to associate with them, especially if I'm trying to abstain from doing those things myself. Having said that, I have co-workers and old High School buddies whom I stay in contact with and I don't believe I'll die for it nor do I believe they're wicked. So.. not all JW's are the way you describe.

Education beyond High School is also not discouraged. I am currently about to graduate with a Degree in Communications. No one told me not to go to school. Again, it is a personal choice. We are told to be careful with higher education, as usually, they teach topics such as evolution, philosophy and theology. Many who seek higher education, can get caught up in it and forget their beliefs, which is why we're told to be cautious with our studies. I took all of these classes and chose not to believe in evolution, or certain philosophies because they didn't work for me and they went against what the Bible teaches.

I'm sorry you've seen so many people get hurt. I feel as if you were one of them. It saddens me and I feel like I personally owe you an apology because religion, is not supposed to be hurtful, and if it was to you then I truly apologize. However, you could have been hurt in any other religion, which is why it bugs me that mine is (sometimes) specifically targeted and called a cult. I've never worn black or waited for a spaceship to come and take me anywhere, LOL. I'm also quite capable of making my own choices, which is why I hate being called incapable of "independent thinking." I am and individual and make choices everyday, I take my beliefs into consideration when making choices but never do I allow any organization to tell me who I can or cannot associate with, my final decision is based on Bible principles. I choose for myself whether I want to follow that principal or not. Anyway, I hope you know, that I strive to be a good person and you have to remember that some people take their beliefs and use them to justify their prejudices. Not only is that not right, it is cowardly. For that I apologize to you.

Since, we're both just people trying to make our way in this world, we don't have to agree but will you at least accept my apology and can we respect each others' point of view? what do you say?

[–] Skatrdude19 12 years ago

This reply clearly shows why you don't see what everyone is talking about. You personally are someone who made your choice to be a JW conscientiously. It is very clear that you were not raised in the religion and I would venture a guess that you also live fairly far away from Brooklyn Bethel.

You have a skewed perception of what the organization is. There are very VERY few witnesses like you, ones who will follow actual Bible principles over watchtower doctrine. If something is in a publication, it is law for witnesses, and the Gov Body do everything they can to maintain that control (calling everyone who says anything negative an apostate). You are wrong in saying that you can disagree. Just try it. Talk to an elder and raise up some Bibical point that witnesses interpret incorrectly (there are many to choose from). I GUARANTEE you that you will be told (in nicer words) to shut up and put the question aside until you are more "spiritually mature". If you continue, you will be disfellowshipped for apostasy. This has happened to people COUNTLESS times. And these people lose everything. They have to start life from scratch. All because they disagreed with doctrine.

The points you bring up in defense of JW's are mostly valid, but there is a reason you have the minority view. You should familiarize yourself with the definition of a cult and see why everyone calls JWs one.

[–] mannfann 12 years ago

there are apostates and heretics found in all the major religions: Christian, Jewish, Islamic, and other
in fact the Catholic Church feels that the Protestants are heretics and apostates for leaving and forming their branch of Christianity and so on and so on....look up the history of these expressions heretics and apostates and all them have different means to deal with such individuals as stated in the holy writings or books they follow and believe are inspired.

[–] aduanew 12 years ago

Snook, I commend you for standing-up for your beliefs!! To say the least, most of the reply's are just an example of how blind the world is to the truth and for some there is no changing. I haven't viewed the film yet but I'm about to simply because there aren't many movies about JW's.

Jehovah loves us all. The sad reality is that many people don't believe it and would rather think we're a cult.
Because people have a problem living bible standards they'd rather flame the faith as opposed to just saying "it's not for me"! That's a choice that JW's are not held accountable as long as we spread the News of the Kingdom.

[–] thepartydjz 12 years ago

I don't know much about Jehovah's Witnesses, but I think they should deliver the mail, they come around to my house almost every day, this could save the government a lot of money.

[–] DanceswithPeeps 13 years ago

Yes, you do terrorize your children. What do you tell them? That if they reject the religion, they will lose everyone in their lives who are Witnesses, and they will die and never be resurrected. They are rejected by their family and by their god. That's pretty serious terrorism. As some have noted, the illustrations in the books and magazines can be terrifying.

And the verse in the Bible that's used to justify disfellowshipping says that you must treat someone who has fallen away as part of the world. Yet, you actually treat them much worse. If a non-Witness said, "Hello," you would respond. You work with non-Witnesses, you eat with them, you have conversations, but not with someone disfellowshipped. The disfellowshipped are shunned the way the Amish shun those who leave their faith.

Having been a Witness, I remember the pronouncements being made back in the 60s and 70s that the end of the world was just around the corner, probably in 1974, but that could be slightly off. Well, it's been 37 years, and it still hasn't come. Has that generation passed away that witnessed and recognized the change brought by World War I? Pretty close, I'd say; there are probably only one or two left in the U.S., according to census data. What will you preach then?

The Witnesses have allowed pedophiles to offend over and over again, not disfellowshipping them, claiming that it requires two witnesses to prove the claim. The child and the examining doctor apparently don't count. But they have disfellowshipped people for much less horrifying behavior.

Don't get on this board and tell lies to justify what you believe.

[–] imanodoubtaholic 12 years ago

The images of Armageddon that are constantly used are not "terrorizing" children into obedience? You, obviously were not raised from childhood as a JW. The Revelation book scared the crap out of me growing up. Various images of people running frantically in an apocalyptic city scared the crap out of me. Jezebel's face in the "my book of bible stories" book scared me. There is still a "heaven" and "hell" within the JW's belief system. It is merely "eternal life on earth" or "Armageddon".

[–] vedrana_a 13 years ago

I like jehovas witnesses but I believe that this story could be true because things like that really do happen in church communities very often. People like to interfere in other peoples lives too much and that's the problem, not God/Jehova.

[–] ecbush 13 years ago

Actually, the Jehovah's Witness religion is NOT very much like a job in the sense that "your job can be terminated" or you simply choose to leave it.

I've changed jobs a few times, and I've never had my former co-workers shun me on the street. The point of this film is the hard choice the young woman had to make because there was no freedom. It was "either - or."

Since my sister was married to a Witness, I have reason to believe that this film is fairly accurate. On her wedding day, her own family (me, my other sister, and parents - non-Witnesses) were not invited. Isn't that odd? Her mother and father were not invited to her wedding because they weren't Witnesses!

Thankfully, that marriage and madness only lasted 8 years. But it cost my sister her education because at an early age she fell for the "pioneer" trap and spent her time going door-to-door instead of staying in college.

I don't believe in any gods, but if there were a God, would that entity truly want to put loving families and individuals at odds with each other? That sounds more like the evil intentions usually attributed to Satan, doesn't it?

I regret that my lifespan came at a time when there is still so much fearful ignorance in the world. The religious fervor of these Witnesses comes uncomfortably close to old-fashioned burnings at the stake.

I applaud the makers of this film for bringing the subject forward. Unfortunately, because it is sub-titled, it won't receive a wide audience in the U.S., where we have lots of "Kingdom Halls" and young people subjected to this mental abuse.

[–] furianshi 12 years ago

I'm a disfellowshipped JW and even though I didn't believe it was the 'truth' (I'm now an atheist), there was a time where I went to meetings and sat up the back without talking to anyone (in order to be reinstated eventually), so my Mum and little sisters would talk to me again.

Of course some people are going to live double-lives to keep contact with loved ones.

As for innacuracies, when I was a witness, they weren't quite as open with encouraging students to leave school to become pioneers. Going to uni and getting myself a higher education was out of the question for me though.

Also, I watched a subtitled copy of this film and the word used for the outdoor event was "rally". I think maybe it was supposed to be "convention", or "assembly".

[–] iagouaros-340-184719 12 years ago

Inaccuracies:

1) The ONLY divine creature that called is Jehovah. Not even a single reference to Jesus Christ despite Jesus is also very important to JW. Off course this done in purpose to make their religion seem something very alien because the most of the spectators don't know (and off course they don't exmplain) who Jehovah is.

2) The elders are unsmiling and off course this made in purpose and it's not true. To the spectators giving the feeling that those people are just bad and all those things that they ask for a JW member is their point of view of things and not God's point of view.

3) Off course NO ONE and i mean No-ONE ever "cut out" from JW's because just read a book or disagree with the elders. This is not just an inaccuracy but simply a awful lie.

4) All the JW characters (father, elders, exc exc) don't give the right (official JW) answers to the questions.

For example: Question: "Is this woman going to die" Answer: "Yes". WRONG!!! No one knows except Jehovah and jesus. If you think that a god killing bad peoples is outrageous as a thought not only JW but EVERY SINGLE religion believes this or even worse (hell).

Question: "You are a group of uneducated people." Answer: "We don't need education.: Wrong answer!!! Right answer: "Who says that? Our level of education of active members is very higher than any other big religion. At other big religions only the old and the uneducated people goes to church. To JW the education level is much much higher."

I have so many other inaccuracies that i don't have the time to write them down. Some other day perhaps...

[–] jeffbutt 12 years ago

Sorry Iagouaros but you are an ignoramus. The educational level of most witness is chronically low. Of 30 sects recently ranked in the US the witnesses had the lowest number of college graduates -4.7%- compare this with Jewish 46.7% and Hindu 47%. (Economically the fare badly too - again coming 30th!) (Source:( A Major Demographic Study of American Jehovah's Witnesses, Documenting their Low Educational, Occupational and Income Status, Jerry Bergman Ph.D.,(Investigator 86, 2002 September))

It's all well and good talking about choice but choices are conditioned by one's educational background. You can walk away but you are already condemned to low paid jobs because you have spent years storing up things in heaven. - If one leaves a job, one will get severance pay. Leave the witnesses you get invective and a cold shoulder.

I thought the film was well produced and balanced. The characters were human and well developed - you felt for all members of the cast; elders too. The production team had researched well and tried to put forward a balanced view for a wider audience.

It is due to a lack of education many on here do not understand 'narrative', 'characterisation' and 'debate'.

[–] omoxus 11 years ago

It's a movie taken from the viewpoint of a fictionsl character written by non JW's. Of course there are going to be inaccuracies.

Im the Alpha and the Omoxus. The Omoxus and the Omega