MovieChat Forums > Oliver Twist (2007) Discussion > More PC history from the BBC

More PC history from the BBC


BBC drama Robin Hood did it , so did its drama's Doctor Who and Ruby In the Smoke and Sherlock Holmes and the Baker Street irregulars .

Is there any period of English history that they will not insert a non European ethnic character in.

Yes thats right they have done it again with Oliver Twist in which Nancy is played by African actress Sophie Okonedo.

All part of the BBC policy of altering the perception of the past to fit its PC agenda.

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But I think it will suit the character of Nancy. I don't think it's a matter of 'PC'. I mean, there was a fair sized black community living in England at the time and, to put it nicely, they probably would have lived much as Nancy did. I don't think there's anything wrong with making Nancy black.

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The BBC inserts black characters into most of its historical drama's.
The black population of early 19th Century london was not point one per cent.

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But they existed and they would have lived in the gutters as many of Dickens' characters do, seeing as they wouldn't have been able to get good jobs or an education. If a black actress was playing a member of the aristocracy, I would question their judgement, but a working class girl who lives in dire poverty and sells herself? It's probably what a fair percentage of black women were doing at the time. I'm not saying Dickens pictured her to be black - he very unlikely won't have done (I can't remember if her physical attributes are described in the book) - but that doesn't mean that she can't be black. And have you thought that perhaps Sophie gave the best audition?

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no, faith, they existed in the contest of a few male back seaman/sailors who werent and the only few women mainly were those few that were tribal leaders daughters who the british let tend universities out of good grace, university isnt the gutter and even then its not sizable

its a bit silly, if they made a show about pre 19th century chinese history, do you think they would have non-chinese charicters?

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The black population of London in the mid 18th century was estimated between 10 000 and 15 000. They can't have all left England for other places by the 1830s. And even if they were all male, Sophie who is playing Nancy is mixed race. There could quite easily have been a liaison between a black man and white woman that resulted in a child. And, for example, the famous ex-slave Equiano married a white woman and they had two children.

And regarding China, Jesuit missionaries settled in China from the 17th century...

I'm not trying to pedantic. I'm just saying that I see no reason why Nancy can't be black/mixed race/whatever. So long as her performance is true to Dickens' book, who cares?

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its the fact though it is being pedantic

a black person doesnt fit into the times well, its clutching on straws and adding them for modern reasons in reality, alot of people pre-world war 2 had never seen a black person in flesh in England before until during/after second world war

its as stupid as the olden days when for the reasons back then they would cast white people into Oriental/asian/afrcan parts due to societies racist leaning, while this is just the oppasite left wing version which in alot of ways is the same

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I'm willing to bet that a heck of a lot of Londoners today have some black DNA in them because of the African population at that time.

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Yes, I thought it was an excellent idea to let Nancy be a black girl.

In the first episode I had to adjust, because I was used to white Nancy's.

But Sophie Okonedo played her very well and it seemed like a natural thing, that there were at least some coloured people walking around in Dickens's world.






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Doctor Who is historical??? *confused*

I thought it was Sci-Fi (aimed mostly at kids but all this time it was an authentic period drama, go fig!)

Sophie is half- African actually...

(sorry if someone else has pointed this out but I haven't read everything yet.)

PS. I don't think they should allow chavs to have internet access.

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Why not cast a black actor to play Oliver or Robin Hood? I think another 5 years before Darcy, King Arthur , Sherlock Holmes, and Wellington, Newton, in Drama docus are played by black actors on the BBC.


And they shouldn't because...? I just don't see the issue. As long as they can act.

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What if they were to remake a major Blaxploitation film like Coffy with a white female lead?
Could you imagine the uproar?
TBH I'm not particularly bothered about Sophie Okonedo as Nancy. The series has already been ruined for me by Timothy Spall. I think he's a great actor, just all types of wrong as Fagin.

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What if they were to remake a major Blaxploitation film like Coffy with a white female lead?


Is Nancy an infamous white supremists? Is being white important to the character?

I don't think Oliver Twist compares to blaxploitation, as I said in my last post, don't be so foolish!

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OH, didn't you like Timothy S as Fagin - I thought he was pretty good.

George... don't do that!

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Ficitonal characters are all very well, but there is absolutely no point in making an historical character a different race - it defeats the object of the exercise, surely, which is accuracy.

Nice warm fuzzy feelings of inclusion are one thing - rationality is another.

George... don't do that!

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anatja You are being pedantic -Doctor Who is sci-fi fiction whose premise is time travel. The central characters frequently travel back into Englands past. The BBC makes great play of the effort which goes into making these historical settings look real. In the Back to the past stories we have a real perriod in History with science fiction elements inserted into it. EG stranded space alien is chained up in Norman castle.

As Eastenders has nowhere near the correct ethnic representation of the real EastEnd maybe it should be considered a sci-fi series with the events occurring in a parallel Universe.

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Peter,

I really cannot take Doctor Who seriously in regard to its time travel element.

I really doubt the many kiddies that watch it are going to be confused by the odd black person here or there when the Doctor spends the other half of his time fighting slimey aliens and aggressive tin Daleks.

Who is being pedantic now?

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"I really doubt the many kiddies that watch it are going to be confused by the odd black person here or there when the Doctor spends the other half of his time fighting slimey aliens and aggressive tin Daleks."

One of the merits of the series was that it was also educational in regards to It's historical content. You saying that Children won't be confused by the odd black person is precisely why they need to be informed about certain historical accuracies. I mean would we have a horror movie with vampires in a modern day setting and have Roman Centurions marching through 21st Century streets. I think not! And let's not forget that the show is popular with adults as well as Children who were be more aware of certain historical anachronisms.

"Who is being pedantic now?"

Still you I'm afraid.

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[deleted]

Yes "Doctor Who" is historical or at least partly as the main character travels through time. Yes, It's sci-fi but like many sci-fi/fantasy series It uses a backdrop that is grounded in reality. I mean would you expect them to cast a black or asian actor to play Albert Einstein or Napoleon for example? No you wouldn't! So why should we ignore other certain historical details!

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I see your point - but Sophie is English - and a great actress - I really look forward to this adaptation.

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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Bill Sykes`is a strong bruiser you would not cast a slim build person to play him no matter how good an actor.

Why not cast a black actor to play Oliver or Robin Hood? I think another 5 years before Darcy, King Arthur , Sherlock Holmes, and Wellington, Newton, in Drama docus are played by black actors on the BBC.

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Reminds me of Nigella's tv show - where people complained about all the white people at her parties - so they have recently included more black people - its a complete joke - perhaps she has no black friends? then again most are probably actors

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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Peterking , tom hardy here I'm 5' 9 and weigh 14 stone, playing Charlie Bronson next, so if you fancy a roll around anytime you let me know sweetie xxx keep it p.c on here xxx

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excuse me?

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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ragz38 is the Charlie Bronson you refer to the UK white hard man who has been held in solitary confinment for 23 of 27 years behind bars?

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[deleted]

14 stone = 196 pounds

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looks like there were black kids in the orphanage and black kid in pickpocket gang

so much for Nancy just being one of those few blacks in victorian london

also, fagin sounds like an eastern european

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I'm suprised Oliver wasn't asian.

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is fagin supposed to be of that descent?

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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Yes he did sound eastern european ,he is supossed to be jewish.Also wouldnt Oliver be shocked at seeing nancy?I mean hes not from london and has probaby never seen a black person before in his life.

What can you expect from the BBC anyway, as usual a load of pc bollocks.

why are you looking down here

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Englandizer yes you are right i started this thread before the series was screened but it now seems to be BBC policy to show scenes in dramas set in Englands past with black people in them. Don't know why they don't include people from India as well. Its the intention of the BBC to make young people think that we have always been the multicultural multiracial society the BBC believe is such a good thing. Its mainly done in shows with a large young demographic among the audiance e.g Doctor Who and Robin Hood.

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[deleted]


I see your point -

I don't! There is simply no reason why Nancy can't be black, unless being 'white' is an intergral part of the story.

The fact is, there were lots of black people in England and Wales in the time period, mostly gathered around London and other port cities.

Whereas a black person might have been completely unseen in rural Derbyshire (please note, I saw none in the recent BBC adaptation of Cranford) in London, especially around the docks and the East End (hummmm, sound familiar?) a woman like Nancy would not have been such a strange sight, though the fact that she is black might be likely to come up on a regular basis, but this is not Nancy's story, this is Oliver's and inserting some silly line into the script to indicate that everyone around them is aware that Nancy is not white would do a great disservice to the original story, Nany just being played by a black woman, does not.


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I really don't mind - but I'm sure Dickens would have pointed it out if she actually was black

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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I really don't mind - but I'm sure Dickens would have pointed it out if she actually was black


Would he have pointed out that she had her wisdom teeth also? Is Nancy's race an important plot point?

Don't be so foolish.

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Look - because she is black people are turning it into a race argument - like well 'she might have been as there were black people around then' don't be so foolish. It isn't important - but if Nancy was black - Dickens will have made at least a reference. Dickens characters are generally stereotypically British AKA white not black

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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if Nancy was black - Dickens will have made at least a reference


Since Dickens made a real point of making sure the reader knew Fagin was Jewish, I'd agree that if he had meant for people to imagine Nancy as being black, he would have made it more obvious, as the automatic assumption otherwise would be that she would be white.

I really like the actress and I think she plays Nancy well - if it turned out they chose her for the sake of creating this kind of argument rather than for her acting talent, then that would make me sad. :\

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yes - i don't want to argue - i love sophie in the role - i just know that dickens didn't give the impression that nancy was black

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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He didn't, but that doesn't mean that she CAN'T be black. Did Dickens ever give the impressions that the characters would sing, or should Lionel Bart should have kept it strictly as a drama for authenticity's sake?

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exactly

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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Did Dickens ever give the impressions that the characters would sing, or should Lionel Bart should have kept it strictly as a drama for authenticity's sake?
No, but "Oliver!" was a musical - which makes it a bit tricky to avoid those particular inauthenticities. Songs (and questions of skin-colour) aside, at least "Oliver!" had the virtue of preserving much of the plot, the spoken language and the characterisations of the original novel, in contrast to this bowdlerised potboiler from the BBC.

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But it's all fiction, so I don't see what difference it makes. If it fine for it to be a musical, then it's fine to be mixed race, it's fine to do an animated version or a sci-fi version. If it claimed absolute historical and textual authenticity, then there might be some eyebrows raised, but it's all fiction so it doesn't really matter. It'd be boring if all adaptations were identical.

Besides, Oliver! is nothing like the plot of the novel. Whole swathes of it are missing.

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Hi Frank,

But it's all fiction, so I don't see what difference it makes.
If what they did was interesting or original I wouldn't have minded, but it was dull as ditchwater for the most part. I was looking forward to seeing some good actors in a good interpretation of Oliver Twist - not some weird hybrid of Pride & Prejudice and Annie, set to a complete train-wreck of a musical score. A total wash-out from my perspective.
Besides, Oliver! is nothing like the plot of the novel. Whole swathes of it are missing.
Apart from the happy ending and the proto-Chas'n'Dave songs, at least those parts that remain are faithful to the original plot, and Carol Reed and co made that cast come alive in a way that was remarkably true to Dickens's own brilliant characterisations in the novel. I'm afraid I can't say the same for this BBC rehash.

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It's all about perspective though - my aunt doesn't like Dickens normally but really got into this version. Different strokes and all that. I thought it was really good myself, also not being a Dickens scholar, a cracking piece of drama. And, may I add, some brilliant work from the background extras - especially the handsome young chap smirking just behind Nancy's ghost.

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[deleted]


Gaaah!!!!!!!

Are you thick?

British is a nationality not a race, anyone can be a British stereotype regardless of the colour of their skin.

I can't think of how much more 'British' Sophie has to be to appeal to you?

*sigh*


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What on earth are you blabbing on about?

I love Sophie in the role and have nothing against her!

I just said at the time the stereotypical British person was white - yes white not black! That is fact!

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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I just said at the time the stereotypical British person was white - yes white not black! That is fact!


I think you mean to say 'English' rather than British, that my dear, is what I am 'blabbering' about.

There is no such thing as a typical British look as everyone in the Empire was 'British'.

You might want to recheck those 'facts'.



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British - ie Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, England (London where this is set) the stereo-typical British person was and still is indeed white.

Ofcourse abroad - in other parts of the British Empire there were black people.

I'm just saying again - that Nancy in Dicken's novel if black - will have been described as black - as the stereo-typical British person was white.

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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Would you PLEASE stop using British when you mean English or white.

FFS!!!

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Will you please stop bringing this done and dusted topic up!

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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Northern Ireland isn't even in Great Britain silly girl!

Just admit that you are wrong and we can all lay this blasted thread to rest eh?

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Sorry I meant United Kingdom.

Still - I am right in that the stereo-typical Londoner (to make it simple) in Dickens time was white.

I have nothing against Sophie in the role of Nancy and loved her performance.

FYI and am not a girl.

Merry Christmas to you!

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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Still - I am right in that the stereo-typical Londoner (to make it simple) in Dickens time was white.



Better.....and true.

But I daresay the stereotypical fence was not a Jew.

Dickens doesn't have to be stereotypical, he can have extremes and unusuals and there is nothing wrong with that.

Sorry I did not know you were male, your user-name is quite feminine.


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Unintentional name - against having my real name in me email - wanted toxin - but was taken - added a vowel and toxina in my opinion sounded less feminine than toxine lol.

Yes Dickens is great lol, and - 'stereotypical fence'? what is that

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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Fagin is a fence, he sells stolen goods!

The East End had a fairly decent Jewish population during the Victorian times of course, but I think the amount of Jews into illegal activities would have been smaller than those who were Christian.

In other words, Dickens was creative in his characters and actors can be cast creatively in adaptions of his work as long as the integrity of the character itself is not compromised, there is nothing to say that Nancy would not be black amd her actual character would be the same, but were Fagin cast as an upperclass Christian too many liberties would be taken with the character.

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OK thanks for that. That's the end of that thrilling debate then lol

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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Awww, this isn't too bad, go onto the 'Enchanted' or any Disney movie thread, those people get seriously angry!!!!



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LOL thats slightly ironic for a 'Disney' board if you know what I mean. I've ad some horrible debates on stuff like 'The Golden Compass' and 'Tony Blair' in the past lol. But we have made ammends on Golden Compass now.

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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Anatja is just some left winger, every thing she says is typical of the left wing, yet these are the same people who moan like troopers if their was disgregard for the history of another culture

its her being foolish, she sees the world through modern, multicultural lenses, they could have got a white actress, in alot of modern dramas, they main cast can be all white, yet every historical drama has black people in it, of course theirs a reason

people are angry because this is one of many things that all add up, the government and media wont rest until we have no historic or culural feeling left, they wont let up until the way it was in my grandfathers day is totally for nothing, modern lay abouts and drunks saying how crap his culture was, when he fought the Japanese with all his heart, pride and passion, the love for your country, i salute you

and to just say this anger is "racism" is crap, thats whats kept people being silent so long, thats why people like Ian Wright are amazing, as they just make a laughing stock out of those left wingers

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Blah blah blah, racist nonsense....I can't take anything from someone with a handle like 'Englandizer' (or whatever) seriously.

Listen puppy, you do not know me, you do not know my politics and you seem to have little clue as to what the real world is like and what really bothers the majority of people in the UK.

Most people don't give a toss about the casting of Oliver Twist, they are more concerned with whether they can afford the latest unnecessary gadgets come this christmas than if there is a black face in Victorian London.

Go and enjoy your futile nostalgia and leave the rest of us alone.

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leave the rest of you alone to destroy our country

this real world was caused by people like you, the crime, lack of respect, loss of culture are all the sad left wing ideals forced upon us, starting in the 1960s and 70s

its you who has no clue, this society has *beep* broke down and we're not allowed to address the issues as left wing legislation has nailed the lid firmly shut

its you who cant be taken seriously, take your multicultural, multi-faith, multi-sexuality, lack of capital punishment, PC, compansation society and shove it up your arse, because it dont work, doesnt work and never will work

the fact im just a "racist" for getting angry over it all is bollocks and its that which keeps people from ever doing anything about it, if an ethnic minority group is treated wrongly and gets angry, you dont call him an Anti-white racist as hes got angry over issues

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when you say 'theirs' i think you mean 'there's' as in 'there is' just it means a different thing don't want you to get mixed up.

I have nothing against sophie/nancy - i just think dickens meant nancy to be white thats all

so whats the difference between left/right wing? - sorry just i'm not that informed on political terms

"When I light a candle at midnight I say to the darkness I beg to differ"-Sr. Helen Prejean

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I can't believe what an ignorant cretin the orginal poster is. What does he think happened to all the black people after the slave trade was abolished? They didn't all vanish, they stayed in London. They've been written out of history and shame on the original poster for not supporting the rectification of this crime.

I am your boss. I AM your boss.

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Fran B man, you are wasting your time, ignorence reigns supreme on this thread!

I just put them on ignore, they can rant and rave all they like, I shalt read it!



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I can't believe what an ignorant cretin the orginal poster is. What does he think happened to all the black people after the slave trade was abolished? They didn't all vanish, they stayed in London.
Hi,

Comparatively speaking, there weren't all that many black people in East London to start with - East European Jews and Irish forming the vast majority of the immigrant population of Tower Hamlets. Some idea of the ratios may be gleand from the "Country of Birth" column in the 1851 census for Whitechapel, Spitalfields and Bethnal Green combined:

Born in Ireland - 8,063
Born in East Europe - 1,395 (primarily Jewish, from Germany, Russia & Poland)
Born in West Indies - 19 (probably < 12 - see below)
Born in Africa - 0

Based on these figures, some 19 people were born in the West Indies and therefore may have been black. Of those, we can discount 7 for various reasons (one is a clergyman; one is Jewish; the others are mistranscriptions and weren't born in the West Indies at all). It is of course impossible to say whether the remaining 12 were black or white, but it's reasonable to assume that some of them, at least, were Caucasian. Even if they weren't, 12 is an extremely small number compared to the overall population of Tower Hamlets - one hundredth of one percent, to be precise. We don't have useful census data for the 1820s/30s, but we can extrapolate. It's reasonable to assume that the black population of Tower Hamlets would have been even lower in the days of Fagin and company, as emancipation had yet to take effect, and many black people would still have been in "service" to richer households outside the East End.

Before anyone accuses me of doing so, let me make it crystal clear that I am not making a "racist" point - I'd find that as abhorrent as any right-minded person - but I am interested in historical accuracy. I wouldn't want black people to be written out of history any more than you do, but it surely it's important that history reflects the facts, rather than our ideals.

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I get your point Hanslick, but you fail to acknowledge the British born black people, rather than the immigrant populations.

I must try to find the source that told of an enclave of blacks in London during the time period, they were not immigrants but lived in the same area.

Damn and blast my disorganised state!!

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I get your point Hanslick, but you fail to acknowledge the British born black people, rather than the immigrant populations.
Agreed, Anatja - although I don't have those specific figures. However, given that most slaves imported into England had been males, and those males weren't granted their "freedom" (more properly, had their freedom restored) until the cusp of the 18th/19th Centuries, there can't have been many British-born black children in the East End either.

I live in part of the UK where I seriously never saw any black residents until the 1990s. Indeed, my village has only one non-white family - they live around the corner from me - but they only moved in about 4 years ago. It may sound extraordinary, at a time where the ethnic diversity of the British population has never been healthier, but it's perfectly true.

The best of luck in finding your source - I have a genuine interest in demographics, and every little bit of knowledge helps :)

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Agreed, Anatja - although I don't have those specific figures. However, given that most slaves imported into England had been males, and those males weren't granted their "freedom" (more properly, had their freedom restored) until the cusp of the 18th/19th Centuries, there can't have been many British-born black children in the East End either.


It depends a lot on what you consider 'black' of course, Sophie is actually mixed race.


I live in part of the UK where I seriously never saw any black residents until the 1990s. Indeed, my village has only one non-white family - they live around the corner from me - but they only moved in about 4 years ago. It may sound extraordinary, at a time where the ethnic diversity of the British population has never been healthier, but it's perfectly true.


Oh no, I definately believe it, not everywhere is as ethnically diverse as the major cities.

I will keep on looking for those sources, having looked at the baptismal records for quite a few Africans who settled in the East End in the late 18thc. these men probably produced a fair few children whose genes probably were assimilated into the local population. There is a very good book on this very subject but I can't for the life of me remember it.


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The East End had a fairly decent Jewish population during the Victorian times of course

True - it fluctuated around about the 20% mark for most of the century, and rose or fell according to what was going on in Eastern Europe at the time. Persistent anti-semitism, as well as pogroms in the latter quarter of the century, forced many Jews out of their homelands in Poland, Russia and Germany. Their lot was often to start a new life in the squalor of the East End, but some used London as a temporary base before emigrating to America, Australia and elsewhere.
but I think the amount of Jews into illegal activities would have been smaller than those who were Christian.

Again true. The East End Jews were mostly decent, hard-working people who often improved the neighbourhoods in which they settled. It's worth remarking, though, that arguably the most notorious "fence" of them all was one Ikey Solomons, whom some believe was Dickens' model for Fagin, but this is almost certainly incorrect.

For one thing, Solomons didn't employ a gang of boys, and although he may have started his career as a teenage pickpocket, it wasn't his stock in trade. For another, Solomons amassed a fair bit of money through handling stolen property, and didn't live in the sort of squalid dens that Fagin frequented. He and his wife ended up being transported to Tasmania, where she promptly left him for another man. Solomons lived to a good age, spending the rest of his days in poverty.

Quite a character then, Solomons, but not quite Fagin incarnate.

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Hey Hanslick,

Thanks for the information about Solomons, what a character indeed.

There should be more television telling the amazing stories of all these people.


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[deleted]

anatja it is the BBC who decide to specificaly cast black actors/actressess in historical set shows, the ones must liable to have lots of young viewers. They are also included as extras in crowd scenes. This is for the specific reason of making young people think that England has always had a fair sized black and ethnic population.

Why not cast a black actress to play Elizabeth 1 or a black actor to play Darcy in Pride & Predudice , in a few more years they will .


1984 "He who controls the past controls the future"

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Peter, why does it bother you so much?

Nancy is a fictional character, she does not compare to Elizabeth I.

Darcy's background means the likelyhood that he would be black would be microscopic! An East End prostitute and some poor boys are actually quite historically accurate.

Do you know anything about this countries colonial history or are you one of those people who think that black people did not exist until 1949?

Please stop blaming the BBC and political correctness for your own educational ignorence.


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Do you know anything about this countries colonial history or are you one of those people who think that black people did not exist until 1949?

Hi Anatja,

Actually, there were comparatively few black people in London around the time of Oliver Twist. Many, if not most, of them were black male "servants" and would have more likely been seen around the richer parts of town, rather than the impoverished East End. After the Slave Trade Act of 1807 banned the importing of African slaves, the black population of London began to fall. It continued to do so gradually throughout the best part of the 19th Century.

I'm not saying that the occasional black person wouldn't have appeared in the East End, but they would have been quite few and far between. Additionally, at a time when slaves were still "kept" and even white women were oppressed, the idea of a black woman moving freely around the streets of Spitalfields and Bethnal Green, mixing easily with its brutalised criminal population, seems a little hard to believe.

Not - I should add - that it matters in the context of this production, which is flawed enough elsewhere. Indeed, to the contrary, Ms Okonedo's Nancy is easily one of the best things about the programme, and one of the few reasons I've continued to watch it.

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trust the Beeb to make a mess of it


The BBC did a much better version in 1985, maybe they should check their own archives and take notes - or they could have just reshown that one and saved the money off this one for a totally *new* project.

I hate to sound like a broken record going on about the 1985 version, but I've never seen another that sticks as closely to the book as that one does. It had a good cast (Eric Porter is a great Fagin), they gave it the time required to fit *everything* in (IIRC it's near 6 hours long), and I'd recommend it over all others if you're looking for one that is faithful to the book.


Back to the new version - my main concerns are with the changes to the story, rather than the colour of the actors. So many of the general story changes just aren't necessary, and each one grates on me as I wonder what else it will change in turn. :\

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Hanslick,

I am not referring only to black servants, as far as I can recall there have not been any in this programme, this Nancy is not the child of a servant, she is more than likely the child of a Portside prostitute and a blackjack. Who do you think she would have moved with? A drunken thug, a jewish fence and some pickpocketing children, seems about right to me, considering her background.

Few and far between...hummm, not every other person in this production is black, despite what some seem to think.

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1) i think you've been swayed by never so few black actors in period dramas, when in fact there have been black people in the UK for centuaries.

2) The BBC is at least being cynical in one other way - they've cast a babelicos oscar-nominated actress who'se willing to do TV. They're not ten a penny.

3) Nancy lives in poverty. She's in an abusive relationship with a psycopath? Probably a pretty realistic portrayal of the lot of a black woman in 19C Britain. Unfortunately.

*You're not listening to me. There are other things that need to be taken into account here*

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I'm all for social realism and accuracy in period dramas but seriously, she's an amazing actress and I think she does the role justice. Her performance is of such a high standard that colour isn't an issue for me. Besides, I don't understand how people can harp on about it being spoiled by the "PC Brigade". If they were really that obsessive about political correctness, Fagin wouldn't be Jewish as he conforms to the stereotype that Jews are greedy.

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Sophie Okonedo is an Oscar nominated actress! She is perfect in the role. A wonderful sensitive actor. I do not understand the negative comments here, are they watching the same programme I am?

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Precisely. If she was a bad actress then maybe it would seem tokenistic in that she had only been cast to fulfill a quota but this is not the case. The series is only further enriched by her presence.

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My word, it needs enriching too....I love the Oliver Twist story and most of the many previous adaptations but trust the Beeb to make a mess of it. The usually excellent Spall is terrible, Hardy is disappointing and my honest opinion of Okenedo ? Very average indeed, whatever the colour. My advice would be to read the book.

AndyG

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Hey. Shut up.

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Ignore this fellah, he's a well known racist who stirs up trouble on other boards.

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Hi Frankjackdaw are you a well known Marxist who is in favour of England having a majority non-English population in a few decades. let me guess you think that this is a good thing and that anyone who does not is some evil person who gets off on animosity to people who live in other lands.

The only racist postings of mine, as you call them, have been threads i started on the specific BBC policy of inserting black characters into historical drama. They do this for a political point.

Note I am not a troll, I have not put comments about "race" on other peoples threads.

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what I dont get is how we're racists for addressing our history and culture being changed and being overwealmed, but if the same was done to a non-white nation, the left wingers would be the first to complain.

we shouldnt have to accept people who have no interest in our old ways and wish it to change for them, we shouldntm they knew what country they were travelling too, its not racist to say this, just bloody true

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Peter King is a racist, though - I've come across his stuff before. Once you get him started, it isn't limited the feeling that we're being overwhelmed. It's the proper actual racist stuff about non-whites being inferior, etc.

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Actually, I know you well from the Doctor Who boards, in which you made statements suggesting that black people are inferior, among other things. A political view is one thing, but you showed you true colours on the DW boards.

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Hi Frank,

Dr. Who boards eh? Hummmm, I wonder if all the drooling racists over at Stormfront are trying to spread the word over their Doctor Who dissatisfaction?

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Quite probably - I haven't been over that way in a while, I find too many Doctor Who fans too dysfunctional even for my tastes. For a show about tolerance and pacifism, it attracts a lot of nuts.

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Here's a deal - we'll make sure all historical dramas from now on are whites-only provided:


We ban the depiction of Jesus as white, blond, blue-eyed. He must always be shown accurately to be dark, swarthy and ethnically Jewish Middle-Eastern. The same goes for Mary. And St. George must always be depicted and recognised as a Turk.

We must refer to the Three Lions on the England football shirts "Les Trois Lions", in recognition of the fact that King Richard I, whose heraldic device this is, was an England-hating Frenchman.

We repatriate all immigrants and descendants of immigrants. There'd be less brown people to offend your eyes, but it might also result in a massive influx of Anglo-Americans, Anglo-Australians, Anglo-Canadians, etc. There might be a bit of a space issue.

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Frankjackdaw I never suggested that all historical dramas should be whites only as you put it. By that logic it would be saying that ones set before the 16th centurty among the North American Indians, The Mayens, Aztecs ,or in feudal Japan or China should use white actors.

You know perfectly well it has become BBC policy to insert black people into historical drama set in English history to make people think there have always been significent numbers of black people in our past.

Would you be ok with a drama set during World War 2 dealing with the Nazi persecution of the Jews. In which just one black actor played an SS man. Why not? many black activists today are anti-semetic.

As to Jesus, how do you know he did not have blue eyes, there are a lot of famous Hollywood actors who are Jewish and blue eyed. Also as a point of interest so do many of the living descendents of Islams founder.

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I was speaking broadly in reference to historical dramas - of course I meant the type discussed here and in relation to the Doctor Who episode The Shakespeare Code.

You have a paranoid idea of the BBC's motivations - they're not trying to brainwash people into revising Britain's history they are, rightly or wrongly, just being PC and colouring in some of the cast for variety and political correctness sake. And often for the sake of casting the best people for the role.

I don't think they let many Nation Of Islam supporters into the SS. It's not really a comparable situation anyway. There were a number of black people in past centuries in the UK, there were absolutely no black people in the SS.

He may have had blue eyes, but that's missing the point. The images of Jesus, Mary and other characters such as English icon St George are ethnically inaccurate, but this is never questioned by racists such as yourself. And I know you are a racist, because I came across plenty of rants about how inferior black people are on the Doctor Who board, which rather undermines any reasonable-sounding arguments you may have in favour of historical accuracy.

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You know perfectly well it has become BBC policy to insert black people into historical drama set in English history to make people think there have always been significent numbers of black people in our past.


Hummm, is it?

Please point to the part on the bbc website where it says this?

I await your reply....

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The BBC are not openly going to admit it are they. However black characters keep being featured in historical drama, mainly the shows which will have lots of kids. Just keep watching.The BBC or at least the majority of people who work for it see its part of their mission to promote a multi-cultural multi-racial society in a positive way. The go to great lengths to concel from the British public any negative aspect, say who commits the most crime. Moreover the do not want the people of the UK to know that according to demographic projections <note these figures have been in Liberal papers -not just The Daily Mail> within a few decades the English will become a racial minority in their homeland.

Note of course that Eastenders avoids depicting anything like the ethnic reality of the London's East End.

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The BBC are not openly going to admit it are they.


Aaaah, so you mean when you said it was 'BBC policy' you lied? Thank you, that was all I needed (and bothered) to read.

Right! Now that we can have clarified that you are a liar, tell me, why should we take anything you say seriously?

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So you mean I am unable to produce a specific BBC document stating this , so what nobody has produced a specific order by Hitler to exterminate all the jews in Eastern Europe.

ok if we do not see more then two historical drama's made and screened by the BBC in 2008 set in England prior to 1900 with black people in the cast then i will accept that i am an internet conspiracy nut.OK ?

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So you mean I am unable to produce a specific BBC document stating this , so what nobody has produced a specific order by Hitler to exterminate all the jews in Eastern Europe


You are trying to compare your pathetic and completely spurious claims about the BBC to the evidence against Hitler? Well done Petey, you have plunged the depths!

btw, you have one Regency set drama on NY day that seems to have a all white cast, doesn't look good for the rest of the year does it? Perhaps then you will sod off and go back to Stormfront eh?



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Dear Antja i think you missed the point their is no specific document signed by Hitler saying exterminate the Jewish people. But we know thats what he wanted.

The BBC are hardly liable to say on the BBC Web site that they are going to use historical drama to make children think that a high percentage ethnic population has always existed in England.

I did not say every such drama, it will be a few years before they do it to Jane Austin..Did you see BBC TVM on 30/12/07 Shadow In The North wow another black character in 19th century london

At the moment its a covert policy all we have to do is look out for instances of it in 2008. As against none prior to 2007.

Do you think they would have cast a black actor as Bill Sikes even if say Will Smith had offered to do it for free.?

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The BBC are hardly liable to say on the BBC Web site that they are going to use historical drama to make children think that a high percentage ethnic population has always existed in England.


You are dancing around the point you said 'it was BBC policy' which (as we have already acertained) was a small fact that you completely made up unless you have proof that this is the case than your claim is still an unfounded theory you painted as fact.

So, let's just stick to real facts shall we? Just because there are more black faces in BBC drama does not mean it is a policy, no matter what you 'think'.



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Before 2006 I can not recall any BBC drama set in Englands past which had a black character improbably inserted into it. Suddenly we get Robin Hood with such as a black man playing a Norman Master Of Arms , A Doctor Who story set in London around 1560 in which every crowd scene had black people in them, TV movie special Ruby In The Smoke, now Oliver Twist. Lets see their have been over 20 versions , not counting cartoons, and its suddenly decided the a central character and one of Fagins child gang should be black.

Its simple will we continue to see black characters in BBC historical drama in 2008. If we do i suggest as we have never before seen this , thats before 2006 then their must be some sort of covert policy on it.

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More and more of the same, I really can't be bothered to read it Petey.

Look, here are the facts, you suspect something, you have no proof but you keep spouting it as if it is fact.

This makes you either a) delusional or b) a liar.


Either/or who cares? Only you it seems...

Bored now.....

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anatja maybe it makes you in denial , did you watch Shadow In The North on BBC1 on BBC1 30 December 2007 another drama set in 19th centuary England with a black women as one of its main characters. No proof its in front of your eyes.

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anatja maybe it makes you in denial , did you watch Shadow In The North on BBC1 on BBC1 30 December 2007 another drama set in 19th centuary England with a black women as one of its main characters. No proof its in front of your eyes.


You mean 'Shadow of the North' written by Philip Pullman, author of His Dark Materials trilogy, written no more than 20 years ago, featuring a Victorian girl who runs her own business, takes a man to her bed before marriage and openly has his child?

Have you read the books? Has your dim mind contemplated the fact that the author possibly WROTE the characters as black and it not the BBCs 'covert policy'?

Oh go away and get an education for your own sake and please for the sake of us all, do not reproduce until you have.

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Anatja you do not have to descend to crude insults.
While aware of the author no, I have not read his books. Have you.
I assume that if you had you would tell us that both the two Ruby books made into BBC TVM s included major black characters .Come on I honestly do not know if they did then here is your chance for a rebutal of my theme .

Note I have read Oliver Twist.

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Anatja you do not have to descend to crude insults.


Is that some sort of joke? Everything you have said on this thread is either a) A lie or b) racist so why on earth do you think you should expect any respect from anyone on here.

Seriously Peter, you have a problem, you are either ignorant (in which case you should, as I previously suggested: get educated; go out an learn a few things; associate with new people; stop reading the Stormfront website; the Daily Mail and daydreaming of village greens and cricket
OR
you are hateful, in which case there is no help for you, you are lost beyond any hope and the only attention you can get to vent your spleen is on a 'movie website'.

Have you any idea how pathetic and sad that is? This is not even a political website, nor a sociological one, it is a website about movies and television and you are going on about crime stats and immigration, I mean wtf? Haven't you any pride?

I would pity you if I could summon up the empathy for a person SO out of sync with the real world, who refuses to learn anything and just wishes to hate.

There can be little love in your life peter but loneliness is no excuse for hatred.



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I can not take anyone who loves Satan seriously..

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Noel Ignatiev has decreed that white people must be attacked and oppressed in their own countries before white privilege can be destroyed. He advocates undermining white history, culture and traditions, including art, music, liberal laws and concepts.

He is always careful to stress that he is not advocating the physical destruction of the white race, or any kind of genocide - but come on, Prof, how else is your abolition of the white race going to be accomplished??

The type of people who support the manipulation of history to reflect current PC trends are but a short step away from becoming disciples of Ignatiev, IMHO.

George... don't do that!

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"The BBC or at least the majority of people who work for it see its part of their mission to promote a multi-cultural multi-racial society in a positive way."

Which is a good thing - like or not, Britain's not going to start getting whiter (especially when those keen on seeing that particular course take place are by and large bullies and cryptofascists, who do generally get something of a bad press), and it's better for a multi-cultural society to be a place in which people are generally happy and get along, than for there to be tension and violence and resentment. Whether it's always appropriate for it happen in the context of a costume drama, at least they're giving it a shot.

Besides, that's not what you said. You said that the BBC are attempting to brainwash British children into re-imagining history, which is a different thing altogether and has no basis in anything other than paranoid fantasy.

"The go to great lengths to concel from the British public any negative aspect, say who commits the most crime."

Poor people, a large percentage of whom are from ethnic minorities. Black people don't commit crimes because they're black, they commit crimes because they're poor.

Most white collar crime is committed by white people - this must mean that white people are inherently fraudsters. I bet you'll find that almost no crime is committed by ethnic people in the business community... which must mean that ethnic people are just more honest.

"Moreover the do not want the people of the UK to know that according to demographic projections within a few decades the English will become a racial minority in their homeland."

There is no such thing as the English race. England is a nation. Ian Wright or Lenny Henry or Aisley Harriott are as English as you or I. The English are made up of countless immigrants from over the centuries - Norse, French, Italian, Central European; and more recently from Asia and Africa. Heck, even Terry Gilliam is British these days and he has an American accent.

England isn't about what race you're from, it's about what nationality you are. I expect the Saxons whined about all the French immigrants after the Normans invaded, and they were German not long before that. But their descendants are all British now. In a few decades, there's going to be roughly the same proportion of English in England as there are now. Difference is, less of them will be white. But they'll be as English as anyone alive today, because the real natives, the real original inhabitants of this little island, disappeared millennia ago.

Anyway, go back in time and tell all the victims of the British Empire in Africa and India about your immigration worries and watch them laugh in your face. Poetic justice, you see - you can't conquer half the globe then whine about other people coming here.

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Hi Frankjackdaw just a couple of brief notes for now :crime lets see which ethnic group did all 22 fatal stabbings in London and representeted 18 of the victims. Also take a look at this www.west-midlands.police.uk/wanted/index.asp
Fraud-Dont mention Nigerians.


Do I take it that if you go and live in Japan or Angola the local people will soon mistake you for a Japanese or an African.

Yes I actually agree not all of British Imperialism was benign e.g Ireland and India.

But whats your finally point that you are quite happy for millions from the third world to come and occupy England . Seems like the normal introverted liberal racism -hating ones own country.

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"Hi Frankjackdaw just a couple of brief notes for now :crime lets see which ethnic group did all 22 fatal stabbings in London and representeted 18 of the victims. Also take a look at this www.west-midlands.police.uk/wanted/index.asp";

That's selective statistics and doesn't really prove anything, other than highlighting the problem of gang violence in black communities. I think you'll find that, for example, most paedophiles are white British - does that mean white people are inherently bad? Of course not. It's easy to "prove" black people are bad by highlighting a problem area in black society as if this represents all crime, while ignoring white crime problem areas.

"Fraud-Dont mention Nigerians."

Nigeria is a country not a race - it's the fourth biggest industry in Nigeria, but it's not a "black" thing, it's a Nigerian thing.

But again, that's completely side-stepping the point I made - that British white collar crime is pretty much exclusively a white thing. Does that make British white people inherently fraudsters? (No of course not).

"Do I take it that if you go and live in Japan or Angola the local people will soon mistake you for a Japanese or an African."

What? That makes no sense, and completely ignores (or misunderstands) my point.

It's nothing to do with people mistaking me for a local - if I moved to Japan and changed my nationality from British to Japanese, that would technically make me Japanese. The difference is that there is no such thing as an English race, due to millennia of immigration - including your own ancestors - whereas the Japanese have a relatively linear ancestry. Anyone can be validly English, black or white, because there is no such thing as an English race.

"But whats your finally point that you are quite happy for millions from the third world to come and occupy England. Seems like the normal introverted liberal racism -hating ones own country."

I don't hate my own country, I just don't equate Britishness with whiteness. Who would you rather represent Britain in the world's consciousness - the black Lewis Hamilton or the white Harold Shipman? I like the country I live in, but British strangers don't mean more to me than strangers from any other country.

Clearly there isn't the capacity for millions of third world people, but I do think it's something to be proud of that our country is compassionate enough that people can escape here from torture and persecution (except the times when bureaucracy sends them back to face torture and persecution).

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Oh just put him on ignore Frank, that sort of ignorance is not worth dealing with.

What a pathetic man.


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I dunno, even if we both think about things in a slightly different way, it's worth it. Not saying he'll make me a racist, but it's handy to know the kind of arguments they use and they way they think and side-step pertinent points.

I love your sig, by the way.

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frankjackdaw what pertinent points have i side stepped?
They i am not part of they , do not nor ever have belonged to any group , just an individual.
Uniquely for western countries any objection to their country being taken over demographically by others is denounced as racism . Lets see if the English resisted the Spanish Armada, Neapolean's grand army, Hitlers operation sealion, or Muslim invasion today its racism , right?

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"frankjackdaw what pertinent points have i side stepped?"

Most of them, too many to list here. At the time of writing, the last long one I wrote, and before that you've just picked two or three points you have some kind of come back for (usually missing the point I was making) whilst ignoring all the rest.

"Uniquely for western countries any objection to their country being taken over demographically by others is denounced as racism . Lets see if the English resisted the Spanish Armada, Neapolean's grand army, Hitlers operation sealion, or Muslim invasion today its racism , right?"

What's racism is equating immigration with invasion; the two are very different things.

What's also racism is claiming that a particular ethnic group, or ethnic people in general, are unfit to live here, inferior, dishonest or more prone to crime because of their colour.

I notice how you have failed to object to all the Eastern European immigrants present in the crowd scenes in Oliver Twist, and who I happen to know were there because I was present on several days filming. Why have you failed to object? Because you can't tell by looking at them. So here's a question for you: do you also object to the Polish "invasion"? More importantly, do you object in the same way to the Poles and other Eastern Europeans diluting our English stock with their foreign DNA, or is it just the darkening of the national skin you object to?

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FRANKJACKDAW just a brief response for now

Invasion - A number of actual Leaders of Muslim countries are on record as saying they will conquer the west demographicaly.

Crime and race , just check out the FBI most wanted, The NYPD most wanted , the LAPD most wanted or or check out the Metropolition Police, who try and balance it out a bit.

Sorry who did most if not All of the fatal shootings and stabings in London 2007 , was it Poles , Hindu Indians or?

As you where on at some filming locations any conection to the production people. If so do you think they would have cast a black actor to play Bill Sykes even if say it had been Will Smith offering his services for free and ensuring good oversees sales.

As to the Polish people does this mean that in a decade or so we will get Polish history month promoted in our schools. As far as science goes has not Poland done more for the world then the whole of Africa.

Are facts racist ?

Another issue the 1997 nuLabour goverments original open door immigration policy was leading to trouble as slowly the people could see what was happening with the huge rise in the ethnic population. Letting in lots of Eastern Europeens before other EU states was no more then a cynical nuLabour ploy to confuse the issue .







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"Invasion - A number of actual Leaders of Muslim countries are on record as saying they will conquer the west demographicaly."

I haven't heard any of these quotes myself; but hard-line Islamic leaders are quite often nut-cases fond of that sort of invective - the reality is probably (if what you're saying is accurate) that they're just making it seem like the people who are leaving for somewhere nicer and more tolerant is a deliberate action rather than an indication of a poverty-stricken society and oppressive regime. They're not sending people here, it makes no sense for their economy. Speak to any Muslim immigrant and find out why they're here - you'll find that practically none of them are here to "invade" the west (if any at all). There will be a tiny tiny minority of psychos who have been brainwashed into hating their current homeland - which frankly is the height of ingratitude - but these are almost always people who have been brainwashed since arriving, and are often young Britons (by birth and citizenship) rather than immigrants. Most immigrants are here either to escape persecution or to attempt to make a better life for themselves. Not all of them take to British culture with the gratitude you might expect, but the vast majority do.

It still doesn't change the difference between an invasion and immigration either.

"Crime and race , just check out the FBI most wanted, The NYPD most wanted , the LAPD most wanted or or check out the Metropolition Police, who try and balance it out a bit.

Sorry who did most if not All of the fatal shootings and stabings in London 2007 , was it Poles , Hindu Indians or?"

Again, these are cultural and economic problems - you can't tar all black people as potential criminals. If there were 22 stabbings by black people in London, that's 22 (possibly less) unique individuals out of tens of thousands of law-abiding citizens. Like I say, check out British white collar crime - find out who's ripping off their employers, who's embezzling millions from the banks. Pretty much all white faces. Does that mean that white people are inherently greedy and fraudulent? No, of course not - they're culturally- and economically-specific crimes.

Look at the US. You never hear of black people going crazy with a gun and shooting the school or university up and killing scores of innocent people. With the exception of a recent Korean, almost always white. Does that mean America should curb its white population (who after all are none-native too) because if the murders? No of course not. It's a cultural problem, not a racial problem. White people aren't more prone genetically to mass-shootings just as black people aren't more prone genetically prone to gang warfare - there will always be ruthless and sociopathic people. Their economic and sociological situation will steer them along certain paths. The vast vast majority of any given race or culture are normal, law-abiding people.

"As you where on at some filming locations any conection to the production people. If so do you think they would have cast a black actor to play Bill Sykes even if say it had been Will Smith offering his services for free and ensuring good oversees sales."

No, I was just an extra. As for your main question, I don't quite know what your point is, so please feel free to enlighten me. I really don't know if they'd have cast a black actor as Bill Sikes - I don't know if a black criminal would have been able to garner that kind of respect in those days (Nancy was pretty much on the lowest possible rung of the ladder), or even whether period authenticity was as high on their agenda as actor performance. I certainly doubt they'd have cast Will Smith, even if he did offer, as he's just far too likeable and cuddly. But it would certainly have been interesting to have seen that portrayal and whether he could have pulled off an English psycho convincingly.

"As to the Polish people does this mean that in a decade or so we will get Polish history month promoted in our schools."

I don't know, maybe. I take it you find something objectionable about a black history month? What about the other 10 white history months? (August of course being the summer holidays).

"As far as science goes has not Poland done more for the world then the whole of Africa."

Well, the Poles gave us radiation poisoning and the potential for nuclear anhillation, so I suppose that's something to be grateful for.

But I don't see your point. Africa is generally less technologically developed than Europe and North America, so there's less opportunity for scientific advancement. Are you suggesting that Africans are of inferior intelligence? And why does coming from a nation known for its scientific discoveries make you a better person? Not all Poles are Marie Curie. Having a country full of immigrated Poles isn't going to put us to the fore-front of scientific achievement as opposed to having a country full of immigrated Africans. What point are you making?

"Are facts racist?"

Yes, they can be, depending on the context they're used in and the lack of supporting facts.

Take this as an example: when I was a student in Middlesbrough, all the burglaries were done by white people, despite a high Asian population. All of them. That's a FACT. None of the students were burgled by Asians. Therefore white people are more inherently criminal than Asians. You can't argue with facts, and facts can't be racist. Look at the crime logs and wanted posters in Middlesbrough for the mid-90s, almost all white faces (certainly not a single black face) - proportionately more than the white population. So therefore white people are criminals.

Of course, I don't really believe that, but can you see how certain facts can be used to illustrate certain stand-points. There were economic and social reasons why the burglaries were all carried out by white people; and the tiny minority of burglars don't represent the whole white population.

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[deleted]

wrong frankjackdaw, the Japanese are a mixed nation too, some of the originally islanders who where absorbed into them were very caucasian, the only diffrent to make you think that they are diffrent, is that they all ended up the same and you havent got masses of other recent cultures claiming they are Japanese and trying to undermime the culture and find loopholes

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I don't think anyone else could have fitted the role of Nancy better

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I think this argument is pathetic.

She may not have been so in the book, but it was perfectly feasible that Nancy could be black, and THE ACTRESS WAS BRILLIANT.

So what's the problem? It's logical and a great piece of casting, so what does that leave that is the petty problem of these people? It's funny how people can reveal their own prejudice in the name of being anti-politically correct. Oh wait, no it isn't ... that's the whole point for the most part.

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[deleted]

My only problem with this portrayal of Nancy is that in those days, not long after the end of slavery, if a black girl was living with a white man in that kind of relationship it would have been so unusual and significant that Dickens would have made a point of it. It's obvious that Dickens wrote Nancy as a white girl, therefore she should have been played by a white girl in order to remain faithful to the story.

It does help cloud history for kids who are struggling to get their facts right, but if it's pointed out to them that this is mere fiction then it shouldn't be too much of a problem..

At my old school the Artful Dodger was played by a black boy wearing a Stars and Stripes waistcoat. He was amazingly good, but I wouldn't recommend that a large professional production follow that example.

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but if it's pointed out to them that this is mere fiction then it shouldn't be too much of a problem..


Hummm, I don't think people have a problem with the idea that Oliver Twist is...a work of fiction!



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"It's obvious that Dickens wrote Nancy as a white girl, therefore she should have been played by a white girl in order to remain faithful to the story."

I don't think that's really a problem, though. A think a lot of people don't pick up on the fact that an adaptation isn't putting the novel on screen, it's putting a version of the story up on screen. Dickens probably didn't think of Fagin as round-faced and blond; I'm told by people who know the book that some of the character motivations in this version are different. He certainly didn't write songs into the novel, yet we still have 'Oliver!'.

Basically, the novel is the novel and can never be faithfully put onto screen because the two media are completely different - the novel has more complexities and details than a TV adaptation could ever hope to cover, while the novel is unable to cover every single detail in the sonic and visual experience, so the director always has to put (in this case) her interpretation on exactly what's happening when. Besides, there have been so many versions of Oliver Twist that it'd be boring if they all stuck slavishly to the book, and I thought in this instance that a mixed race Nancy was pretty effective.

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What the heck, it is a quiet afternoon and I am feeling somewhat studious, this is just what I have drummed up on the net, available to anyone if you so wish to look for it.

All pre-1900 as per your requirements, which sadly leaves off many early (pre-windrush) 20thc. Blacks such as Garvey and the early members of the Pan-African movement many of whom met and unionised at the University of London.




Here are some Georgians, oooh those black men do get around…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quobna_Ottobah_Cugoano

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaudah_Equiano

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Barber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edmonstone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Antonio_Emidy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Africanus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_Sancho

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Caesar

This man was quite interesting, he ran away to London, was tried for theft and was sent to Australia!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Soubise
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/culture/music .htm

George Bridgetower, African-Polish, brought up mostly in London, please note

‘He married an English woman’

Like many of his compatriots, their genes survived onto the next generation (note: that would be Victorian)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Williams

First black to be educated at Cambridge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Picton

This is interesting….

The legal status of slaves imported into England was ambiguous and unclear when Picton arrived, but they were certainly not regarded or treated in the same way as slaves in the British American colonies. The situation was clarified considerably by Somersett's Case of 1772, which although the details are unclear when analysed by lawyers, was generally taken to hold than no person could be a slave in England itself (confirming other reported judgements of 1567 and 1702). Many white apprentices and workers of the time would be classified as near-slaves, though in a time-limited way, by modern standards, and already most black servants seem to have been regarded and treated as free, at least by the time they reached adulthood.


http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/work_comm unity/poor.htm

]The committee was soon handing out relief to other Black people who had fallen on hard times. One group in particular swelled the numbers of the destitute: Black Loyalists who had fought on the British side in the American War of Independence. Large numbers arrived after the British defeat in 1782, and very few of them received help from the Compensation Board…Historians agree that the unsupported Black Loyalists joined the ranks of the poor in England. In 1786 there were more than a thousand of them in London, most of whom were destitute.


http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/work_communit y/relationships.htm

This legal victory was celebrated by a ball held at a Westminster pub, which attracted nearly 200 Black revellers.


Hummmmm, just think Peter, if even one quarter of those black men had married white women, that is 50 men, considering the birthrate, if even half of those had 2 children who grew to reproduce and the other half only had one child who grows to reproduce, you have an small mullatto British born population in Regency London, how many Europeans have black ancestry and haven't a clue about it?

Victorians
http://www.black-history-month.co.uk/history/pages/men/ira_frederick_a ldridge.htm

An actor who was much decorated amongst the European nations, he was a novelty because he dared to take on lead roles usually played by white actors, it seems by the tone of the contemporary reviews and writings about him, that they were not so shocked about seeing a black man, but seeing a black man play roles that were not comedic or caricatures


http://www.black-history-month.co.uk/articles/andrew_watson.html

A Victorian who just happens to be black, living in Scotland. Shock

Let’s not forget Mary Seacole, who born in Jamaica, travelled the world, went to the Crimea and ended her days in London, buried in St, Mary’s cemetery, she, like many other black people during the age were ‘whitewashed’ out of history. Read her story and I dare you to say that she was more adored by the white soldiers of the Crimea than even the legendary Nightengale.
http://www. black-history-month.co.uk/articles/legacy_mary_seacole.html


Samuel Coleridge Taylor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Coleridge-Taylor

Remember, these people are noted not because they are black (well perhaps the footballer) but because they are exceptional, think about the many lowly people, who were not accomplished, some perhaps destitute, some perhaps prostitutes or thieves. Some labourers and maids.
Blacks have been here a long time, it has just taken the Beeb a little while to realise it!


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Anatja I have not said that no black people were around in Englands past, <but not in the time of "Robin Hood"> as Elizabeth 1 wanted them removed from her realm. And for your information I have read Boswells life of Johnson.

The point is there were very few -despite recent attepts to make out otherwise. Not even point 1 per cent of 19th Centuary London.

The BBC however seems to be inserting black characters into its historical dramas with the intention of making people think that we always had a fair sized ethnic population-prior to the Windrush landing on us.

At the same time contempory dramas always keep the ethnic size as below 7% .Eastenders being a good example -why do they not depict the Eastend of London more like it is. The real reason is they do not want the people in other parts of the country to get a true impression. Until such time as the native people of England attain minority status. Both peoples perception of the past and the present is being falseified in order to reach the desired future.


PS The BBC has made two TV movies based on Pullman's 19th Century set books.Both the 2tv movies had black characters in them , did the books. I can accept once but twice looks like a patern to intentionaly alter how people percieve the past.

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Peter, all I see from you is 'I think' 'presume' 'It seems' OR those ideas laid out as if they are facts!

Can you not see that your ideas are still that- ideas! They are what YOU think, not what is fact nor things that you have any proof of.

You don't know everything, just accept that this is what you think is the case but it might not be.

When you get to the point that you have some substantial facts to back up your claim that the BBC are trying to alter perception than we would have something to talk about, until that point I assert that you are just a racist agitator out to make trouble on a MOVIE website.

Edited to say, please read the links, you seriously need to.

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Anajta you have not responded to my question about the Pullman BBC movie adaptions.

If we keep seeing black characters in every other BBC drama set in England's past is it not reasonable to assume a motive by the BBC.

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No, it is not reasonable to assume anything more than they were the best people for the job.

These are all fictional characters and can be portrayed anyway the producers think, If I have always pictured Elizabeth Bennet with brown eyes or Jane Eyre as Olive skinned (rather than just a dark haired girl) that is my feelings on the matter, but the producers will cast anyone they see fit!

Until they start casting Lenny Henry as Prince Albert and Thandie Newton as
Victoria, you still haven't got a case and we still have nothing to talk about.


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"At the same time contempory dramas always keep the ethnic size as below 7% .Eastenders being a good example -why do they not depict the Eastend of London more like it is. The real reason is they do not want the people in other parts of the country to get a true impression. Until such time as the native people of England attain minority status. Both peoples perception of the past and the present is being falseified in order to reach the desired future."

This might seem reasonable to you, but unfortunately from the outside they do rather come across as the paranoid rantings of a madman. The reason, fortunately, is much more prosaic - white script writers tend to write white characters. EastEnders has always been notoriously tokenistic anyway - one gay character with a gay storyline, one black family with a black storyline, one real tough family with their tough-family storyline, etc. We both know that life isn't that clear cut, but this is how soaps works. If boundaries became more realistically blurred, things wouldn't work out for them. Two or three black families would make them struggle to find storylines; and they may also worry about alienating the whiter parts of the country. If they had two Dirty Dens at once (two similar characters), they wouldn't know what to do with them both. It's just how soaps work.

As for the background extras, it's simply that there aren't very many black and Asian extras working in the industry. Having recently worked on the upcoming He Kills Coppers, all the extras were professional extras apart from the Jamaican drug dealers who had to be recruited from elsewhere. (Yes, there are some black extras, but not a representative proportion).

It's clear that you find black people genetically inferior. You're keen on preserving the mythical English "race" yet have no objection to the already opaque gene pool muddied by eastern european DNA. In short, you object to dark skin, othewise it wouldn't bother you so much and you wouldn't chase around all the imdb boards cracking on about it.

And what about the BBC's conspiracy make the public think that people have always spoken with a generally modern-day vernacular? What about that one?

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Frankjackdaw your words in reference to Eastenders:"they might worry about alienating the white parts of the country." Translation some parts of the country are still, at the momment majority white . The BBC do not want the people in those parts to gain the correct impression that other parts, major cities, are now majority ethnic <Asian , Black>.

If as you seem also to be saying white scriptwritters have difficulty writing for black or Asian <Indian sub-continent> then the BBC with its commitment to multi-culturalism should recruit some more black /asian writers to the script team.I actualy think Eastenders should reflect at least to a degree the true ethnic make up of London's East End, let the people of England see the truth.

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Frank, you are being too logical, racism isn't logical, like all forms of prejudice it is based on ignorance.

First racists try to use the cover of patriotism and nationalism, when that doesn't hold up, they try culture and finally they have to admit that their opinions don't have a stronger basis than someone is a different colour.
And since colour is only skin deep, it isn't any more logical than someone having an irrational fear or hatred of redheads or people with hazel eyes.

And that is what the basis for it, Petey and his ilk are scared.

It is sad really but considering he is trawling the IMDb going on about his mad BBC theories (what, has he been banned from the BBC boards or something?) I doubt the beeb are quaking just yet!




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Anatja racism can you define what you mean.
For example do you mean the racial theory's of the Third Reich in relation to the Jews and others in Eastern Europe or the UN decleration that Isreal by being a Jewish state is racist.

Do you mean the constant tribal conflict in most parts of Africa e.g Kenya yesterday.

Is Japan racist for not allowing in any large numbers of other Asians.

Why is it racist not to want ones country, the most densly populated in Europe , to be majority populated by people from other lands.

No i am not banned from the BBC board. Why is it a mad theory it seems perfectly reasonable . The BBC think the mass migration into England is a good thing why should they not promote that view in their programmess . Altering peoples perception of their own history would seem a good way to go about it.
"He who contols the past controls the future" 1984

You refuse to answear the question where their any black characters in the two Pullman books made into TV movies by the BBC. Could it be that in two TVMs set in 19th Century England the BBC decided to change things, regardless of probability. But that would be good evidence for my "mad theory" being correct would it not?

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Hi Frankenjaw I agree that their are lots of versions of this story, more the 20 films alone, and its a work of fiction.If this had been a stand alone drama from the BBC well ok

However within the last year the BBC has adopted a policy of insuring black faces are present in its historical drama e.g Mary Lloyd Queen Of The Music Hall. Yes i know they have not yet done it to Jane Austin.

But as it seems to be every other historical drama set in Englands past I say that there is an obvious motive :to make people think we have always had a fair sized ethnic population.

Lets see how many instances of this covert policy in 2008.

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At the risk of going around in circles, I agree that they've deliberately been inserting dark faces into historical dramas where it sometimes might not be historically as accurate as if they were white, but frankly your supposed motive is pure paranoid fantasy. It's just political correctness, not some bizarre revisionist agenda.

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putting things into history for PC reasons IS REVISIONISM

its changing it to suit Political Correctness!

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frankjackdaw why is it paranoid fantasy the former Soviet Union in the 1930s did just that.

If you think that the ethnic transformation of England is a good thing and want to convince everyone else that it was so than altering peoples perception of the past, especially younger people would be a sensiable move. In fact my view of just why the BBC is doing this is the best explination which fits the facts.

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However within the last year the BBC has adopted a policy of insuring black faces are present in its historical drama e.g Mary Lloyd Queen Of The Music Hall.


Heaven forbid there would be black people in show business or music in the Victorian or Edwardian eras!!!!

*cough*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Coleridge-Taylor

http://www.black-history-month.co.uk/history/pages/men/ira_frederick_a ldridge.htm

Peter, do you know how popular Negro spirituals were in Victorian Britain?
They did tours across the major cities of Europe. Blacks on stage were not that unusual, you chose a rather paltry example. I told you to read the links didn't I?



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Antaja i agree that in the theatre of the 19th Century Black and Chinesse people where more to be found in England exept for a few areas near the ports.
If this drama had been in isolation I would not have thought it worth commenting on. However it seems that in the last year every other BBC historical set drama manages to include Black people.

You still have not responded to my question. Pullman is a fairly left wing author . The BBC have made two TV films out of his 19th Centuary set Sally Lockheart stories, both included black characters against improbability. As i understand you have read the books,I have not,why did they not once but twice decide to include black characters in the TV versions.

Is it not because the BBC have adopted a covert policy of revising the past to make young people less aware of the very recent transformation of our society.

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a covert policy of revising the past to make young people less aware of the very recent transformation of our society.
You repeatedly claim that the BBC have the conscious aim of misinforming "young people", indoctrinating them with a wilfully falsified picture of pre-modern British society. Do you have any evidence for that specific motive? Might not a more mundane reason - to give black actors work (the so-called "colour-blind" approach to casting) - be far more likely?

I am not here arguing about whether, as a result, the repeated picture presented is or isn't inaccurate or distorted - inaccuracies of all kinds bedevil period dramas, as IMDb threads amply testify - but I am questioning your notion of a "covert policy" of intentional falsification and politicised indoctrination.


Call me Ishmael...

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austendw Since when has the motive of casting been to give some specific group work. Did MGM cast "hight challenged" people to play the Munchkins in the Wizard Of Oz in order to give dwarfs work, or the makers of Time Bandits.

As I have repeatedly said if you believed that our multi-racial society was the precurser to some globel goverment , the ideal future shown in Star Trek, you would seek to promote that vision. Just as the racial darwinist HG Wells did .His vision was restricted to whites only , but its the same humanist dream.

The BBC , by which i mean the majority of its production people , may not be unbiased about conflicting evidence for globel warming. Their instinctive thought is a globel threat demands a global solution.

The BBC people think that the continuing ethnic change to our society is a good thing so they work towards it ensuring that as far as possiable only positive things are shown. Its a bit like the claim of "subconscious racism" made in a Nulabour British goverment report into the Stephen Lawrence murder investigation.

Showing that their where realy quite a few black people in Englands past would be exactly what I would do if I like the BBC wanted to influence the way people thought.

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Star Trek? Global Government? Global Warming? I don't understand what that's all about and now have misgivings about entering into this discussion at all.

But here goes. Put simplistically, the underlying philosophy of "colour-blind" casting is that the race of the performer is irrelevant and should be ignored. There is therefore no reason to exclude an actor of colour from a production simply because of his/her race. Now, I am not here going to attack or defend that policy. But my view is that it sometimes works, sometimes it doesn't (theatre, cinema and TV not being identical mediums) and that it can cause perceptual disjunctions and problems for certain audiences in certain circumstances.

However, your idea seems to be that the BBC casts black actors in certain roles not because the race of the performer is irrelevant, but on the contrary, to highlight the race of those fictive characters, and that this is central to the BBC's covert agenda of reconstructing the past as if it were in complete continuity with the multi-cultural Britain of today - fraudulently introducing black characters where they have no right to be, a bit like Stalin tampering with photos to re-write the history of the USSR.

And, frankly, I think that's bonkers.


Call me Ishmael...

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AUSTENW your last paragraph puts it precisely.

Don't know why you think its bonkers.Historical set drama represents less then 5% per cent of the BBC output. Its only in the last 18 months that the BBC has started doing it. Colour blind casting. By an amazing coincidence every time its been done its in a historical set drama which would be expected to have a fair percentage of young viewers.
E.G Robin Hood Oliver Twist Sally Lockheart

Not Cranford Lark Rise Sense & Sensibility

.

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