It really bothered me that she was 15 (about to turn 16) and she was having a sexual flirtation/relationship with Tony, who seemed to be in his 30s. Her character was also very sexualized, for example the naked Venus look at the mall. I know Tony turned out to be a sleazeball but no one else seemed concerned about them spending time together when she was so young.
shareI definitely agree. I came on here to see if anyone else was bothered by that.. and I am glad I found someone else who agrees. I hate when they sexualize underage characters in movies (even if the actual actor is 18+)
The part where she was naked was especially appalling. Oh well.. nothing we can do about it. Sex sells.. even underage girls apparently.
Why jump to conclusions? "Sex sells", what an assumption. First of all you missed all the Biblical allusions there with the apple and fig leaves? The image of Valentina here is supposed to remind us of romantic artistic notions of Eve, purity before corruption. In terms of Gilliam's filmography, the image matches up to Uma Thurman's near-nude Aphrodite/Venus in "Adventures of Baron Munchausen." There are many reasons for this scene to be in here besides just to titillate people.
Did I not love him, Cooch? MY OWN FLESH I DIDN'T LOVE BETTER!!! But he had to say 'Nooooooooo'
I see what you are saying and agree with the symbolism but I don't think the story would have been harmed at all if he had promised to sell his daughter to the devil at 18 or 21. Lily Cole was not 15 years old when she filmed the movie so why did her character have to be so young?
It just took me out of the story because it really disturbed me to see a "15 year old" naked and smoking a post-sex cigarette in a bra after having slept with a much older man. The point wasn't her age but because I couldn't get past it, it affected my ability to enjoy to movie.
I really can't understand the problem here. First of all the actress herself wasn't 15. The point of her being nearly 16 was that she would be at the age of consent in terms of leaving her father. Tony, was was wicked and manipulative. He didn't have much of a chance to try it on with her while her father was around, that's why he had to get her into the Imaginarium.
If the boat scene titilates someone then that isn't the intention, and I certainly don't think that's Gilliam's intention. It is, and is supposed to be, disturbing. In fact it's a big clue to the kind of man Tony is.
the scene in the boat happened after she turned 16.
"I don't think the story would have been harmed at all if he had promised to sell his daughter to the devil at 18 or 21. Lily Cole was not 15 years old when she filmed the movie so why did her character have to be so young? "
Actually that would have hurt the movie. The point of her turning 16 is that it is the legal age of consent in England. Which is where the movie takes place, and where most of the cast and crew are from. So her turning 18 in British movie would be the same as her turning 19 or 20 in an American movie. If she is turning 18 then you lose the sense of the relationship being taboo.
When she states that the age of consent is 16 at the start She is not just saying it's the age she can run away with Antoine but she's flirting with him and saying that it's the age she can also have sex with him.
Have you ever met a 15 year old? Because I know plenty of them and most of them are not so "pure" as you seem to think they are.
Honestly, when you are 15 you should have been in control of your own body for years.
I believe the biggest reason teenagers rebel is because it pisses adults off when other people force them about what to do with my their bodies.
I never rebelled because I got the freedom to make my own mistakes.
Dear god people, she's 15, not 8.
Ye only demonstrate your lack of knowledge.
Remember Romeo & Juliet? She was only 13. Or Sound of Music? The girl was having a torrid affair and she was only 15. C'mon people - if a girl or boy hase passed puberty, they know all about sex and attraction and lustful urges. They are not "pure".
you can't sexualize a character who is 16 years old because 16 years old are sexual by nature, they know what sex is and they have sexual relationships that are often more mature than those of 40+
Being bothered by that is nonsense, it's like being bothered by nature, by the natural fact that individuals that age even if underage (but 18 years old has nothing to do with biology or actual maturity, it's just an arbitrary number without meaning) are sexually mature beings, completely ready to have sex to bond or to procreate.
There are million of movies and even novels from 1600 to nowadays with teens having sex, talking about sex, seeking sex because it's the most natural things in the world.
I disagree that "no one else seemed concerned" -- remember the scene when Tony is chatting her up, telling her not to be worried about money? And then, just as he's about to kiss her, Dr. Parnassus suddenly appeared and asked him a question. Dr. Parnassus knows what's going on and he's keeping an eye out. But ultimately he can't stop Valentina from doing whatever she wants or dreams of doing, even if the objects of her affection and dreams are mundane.
Did I not love him, Cooch? MY OWN FLESH I DIDN'T LOVE BETTER!!! But he had to say 'Nooooooooo'
Are you all parochial brain washed North Americans ? The age of consent for sex in Europe varies from 13 (Spain) to 18 with many of the Balkan countries at 14. And going to extremes there are of course countries where the age of consent for marriage is 9 or less (Middle East & South Asia).
shareTo the rest.. sorry I over-reacted. Its not like this was "Lolita" or "Pretty Baby". I guess I go a little overboard when underage kids are portrayed sexually in any way. I can see how I might have seen it differently than how it was meant to be portrayed.
As to petekoolkid.. just because the age of consent is 9+ in other countries doesn't make it right. The thought of that just sickens me.
15 or 16 is rather common, however, so I don't quite see any reason to why this should be upsetting. What _did_ bother me is that I didn't really think she looked the age she was portraying.
shareSo you don't think it's upsetting to see a girl who has JUST literally turned sixteen that day having sex with a man who is in his forties, who is old enough to be her dad?
sharethat's just stupid
the age of majority has been created to agree with the school system, it has nothing to do with biology or mental maturity. An "anderage kid" of 16 or 17 is not a kid at all, is a biological and mental adult as ready to live his life as someone twice his age and it's ridicolous to lump all "underage kids" together as if a 16 years old is the same as a 6 years old. And don't forget that by the age of 14 you're totally imputable for your crimes and it's hypocritical to think of a person who is totally responsible of his/her action in the eye of the law as an innocent little child to protect. And even the most conservative cognitive researchers agree that by the age of 14 everyone has all his/her marbles and the same mental cognitive function of someone 40+. The age of 18 is just a way to keep professionally imprepared individuals out of the job system, it's ridicolous to use it as a gospel for when it's time to treat a mature individual as an individual rather than a small ignorant child.
just because the age of consent is 9+ in other countries doesn't make it right. The thought of that just sickens me.
I think it all depends on how the age of the older person. A 30 year old lusting after a 15 year old is pretty sick.
Also the scene (when she's basically 15) when she sits naked on the stage was horrible. She's much to young to be sexualised like that.
@whitneyrgoolsby
It sickens you because you were socially brought up to believe the youngest socially acceptable age for consent to sex being 18.
What you have to realize is you are a fking idiot who knows absolutely nothing about anything outside your small little bubble of a life. Remember that and your life might actually hold some minuscule importance in the universe someday.
Oh fck off pedo. I've had old, wrinkly nasty fckers like you hit on me ever since I was old enough to walk. No one wants your wrinkly ballsck- not even those little kids you prey on. Get off of IMDB and go whack off to your lolicon.
shareWhoa look out for the most intelectual guy to ever post on IMDB... Get a life you moron... Ill take the trolls over this scumbag ethicks anyday... Everyone is laughing at you cool guy... You talk about how moronic everyone on here is and how they live in a little buble.... You posted on shows like Futurama you F...in Joke... Get intelectual before you knock how non-intelectual someone else is... instead of trying to fill that void of respect you never have received in your life by putting other people down to feel better about yourself...
shareWho are you to judge someone's viewpoints and customs as inferior just because they aren't from Europe? Real classy, really sophisticated, if you are fromm Europe you are making your whole continent look bad just cuz an arrogant intolerant prick like you is on it.
And it's actually LESS parochial and brainwashed in countries that have higher ages of consent, bc the places with lower ages of consent are usually places where they practically sell little girls into "marriage" without real consent, think of the Middle East.
I guess your amazing logic is that if they have lower ages of consent outside America then higher ages of consent must be a bad thing because Americans do it, and it must be a good thing becuz it's done in Europe, you know, the viewpoint of pretentious, parochial, brainwashed idiots.
Wow...way to overreact.
I have no problem with 15 year olds having sex. But I think they should be having sex with other people near their age. To me when I see a 35 year old going for a 15 year old I see a sexual predator looking for someone easy to manipulate.
I'm definitely not an uptight prude and I don't live in America. But I was once a 15 year old girl who got hit on by gross older men, and trust me they are not looking for true love or companionship when this happens.
Isn't that the point? Tony is not the hero of the movie, is he?
Did I not love him, Cooch? MY OWN FLESH I DIDN'T LOVE BETTER!!! But he had to say 'Nooooooooo'
Tony's not looking for true love or companionship, either. I found it pretty clear in the gondola scene, when Valentina tells Tony she thinks she loves him he completely loses his pleasant expression. His face just falls.
share'Underage' is an American word that doesn't exist in the real world. In the real world 16 year old girls are sexually active and most of them would not turn down the chance to get it on with Colin Farrell:)
shareCOULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER!!!!!!!!!!! OMG YOU ARE SOOOO RIGHT..... i'm no pervert either, but dude, SOOO many things command and control our thoughts on a daily basis:
Religion
The Media
The War on Drugs
The War on Terror
The FCC
The Legal System
and i know i'm just ranting too... but it's nice to see someone finally thinking outside the box and realizing just what in the world we are surrounded by on a daily basis.
anyone with children should know that a child will break rules over thhe simple fact that it is a rule.... as soon as you tell someone that they CANT do something, you've successfully convinced them to TRY. Basic psychology: implant an idea and force a choice... If there werent soooo many laws and rules telling us what NOT to do, we might just change our minds to what we CAN do..... good or bad / we all have a moral compass.... no ONE can tell me that my OPINION is wrong....
like dude said, a girl or boy is ready when their body tells them to be. 2ndly, for those of you DISGUSTED at the idea of an UNDERAGE woman be sexually active: DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT REALLY GOES ON IN THE WORLD?????? in the schools in your neighborhood???? i'm almost 30 and in the last 10 years sexually active children have gotten younger and younger and younger... have a ten minute talk with a teenager.... they're not shy to tell you about the conquests.... WAKE UP!!!! IT DOES NO GOOD TO JUST IGNORE THE PROBLEM AND KEEP TELLING THEM 'NO' YOUR 'NOT ALLOWED' AND 'JUST BECAUSE'......
grrrr... i'm done....
I am sick of everyone reading into this the wrong way. As the OP and I have said, we don't have a problem with underage girls having sex. I am only 22.. been married since I was 18.. and have been having sex for way longer than that. My problem is with adults taking advantage of underage girls, which I have personally been a victim. The whole subject of this topic was about portraying underage girls in a sexual manner in movies.. and this movie isn't as bad as others out there. Anyway, people are obviously very confused as to what the OP and I were referring to, as they seem to think that by saying we think its a little much when they sexualize underage girls on screen that we think they shouldn't be able to have sex. I believe as long as the underage girl/boy is having protected sex with someone around his/her maturity level and age.. they can do whatever they want.
Sorry if this message makes no sense whatsoever.. just came back from the ER and not thinking too straight lol
actually, we're still discussing somewhat the same thing... open your mind a little bit...
fact is... UNDERAGE doesn't exist!!!! it's a term that the LEGAL system put out in order to prosecute people in different age groups (IE: if you're still in school, your considered underage)
you say you were a 'victim' to an older man (or something like that), well, as far as i'm concerned unless you were raped there is no victim. So either you have your terminolgy mixed up, or you were raped.... which is it?
besides, if a girl wants to be sexually active, what difference does it make how old the guy is? i mean, if she's dumb enough put herself into a situation like that, well... reap what you sow..... maybe her parents should have actually TAUGHT her something instead of telling her NO, and YOU CANT, or YOU SHOULDN'T... JUST BECAUSE....
so again... we're sill on the same subject, you're just not willing let go of your ways.... is how it appears to me.....
I agree with you almost entirely on your feelings towards social construct, and how incredibly naive and uptight it is to be offended by a sexy 16 year old, but on one account with you, sir, I disagree. Rape is not necessary for there to be a victim in a sexual interaction. Despite whether it is a heterosexual, homosexual, "underage" or elderly there are times when you can be sexually attacked without actually being penetrated. Try being a teenage girl.
shareUm. Underage doesn't exist? So...where do you draw the line? At pre-teens? Children? It is ok for 10 year olds to have sex with 30 year olds? I mean, anything goes, right? It's just all in our MINDS, man.
Seriously the creepiest post I have ever seen on here. Get some help. Btw, it's interesting that you're referring to the (yes) UNDERAGED person as a "girl". You're right, an underaged person is a girl and not a woman. Psychologically, GIRLS are ill-equipt to deal with sex with a full grown man, so, yes, they are victims...not "victims", in quotes.
"reap what you sow"?
You're just all around disgusting. What the hell kind of MAN is so immature he sexes up a teenager?
Damn, I wonder how many people who posted that it's completely okay are creeps or closet-pedos in real life.
To completely ignore OP's main concern that Valentina is a completely inexperienced and mentally immature JUST turned 16 year old, who has been taken advantage of and is in a sexual relationship with a clearly much older man?
I wonder how many of these "it's an a number" and "only in America is this a problem" arguments are used by pedo's in real life.
Teenagers will make mistakes, that's fine. If they make it with other teenagers that's even acceptable.
But to see a 30/40 year old with a 16 year old is not okay, regardless of how sexually active that 16 year old is.
You have been a victim of a predator that was interested in one thing only.
There are lot of 20 or 30 or 40 years old that are victims of predators or false-friends or cheating husbands. Age doesn't mean anything and your experience doesn't mean anything because it can't be extrapolated to the whole world.
The truth is that it's particuarly had to deal with people who pretend to be who they're not. I would say 90% of all relationships at any age are based on the terrible premise of one hiding his/her nature or trying to change the other's nature. And 15 years old are not vulnerable as you claim, not at all, in fact a lot of them are way more less vulnerable and mature than a lot of married older women and there are even cognitive tests that prove this, but we should just have a look at politicians to understand that age doesn't have anything to do with maturity.
I think a younger person can fall in love with an older person and viveversa if they have things in common, common passions and similar goals. The idea that a meaningless number should matter even more than "affinity" in determining love is just unhuman, it's like trying to destroy the last bit of instinctive humanity let in us to replace it with mathematical flawed rules.
Murity level is a meaningless concept. There's no such a thing as a maturity level past the age of childhood where the brain and cognitive development is still developing. A 15 years old is exactly as mentally complete as a 40 years old. The difference is just in their individual empathy, sensitivity, relationality and we just need to look around to see that older people are not necessarily more mature or more sensitive or more empthic and a lot of teens are actually way more social mature as members of society and as empathic individuals than their parents. So this is just an arbitrary prejudice based on a number that doesn't have any connection with real life competency, intelligence and maturity.
Are you sleeping with a 15 year old or something? A large variety of your posting history has to do with arguing that people under 18 are just as mentally, sexually, and emotionally sound as someone three times their age. It's as if you're trying to prove something to yourself.
I agree that most 15 year olds are not innocent and have been introduced to sexual thoughts, but the vast difference between teenagers and older people that I've taken notice of are experience levels. Most teenagers are more easily taken advantage of than someone with more experience in the dating world. Anyone can be taken advantage of, but it is more likely with teenagers because they're often more naive having a lack of experience with life. The idea of someone older with more experience taking on a relationship with someone on a different experience level who hasn't had too many mistakes to learn from I think is what creeps people out on this subject. The playing field seems incredibly uneven. You can keep telling yourself that there is no difference between teenagers and adults, but experience does make a lot of difference.
***Frogger***
There are 2 basic things about the why of my arguments:
1.- I am from one of the many countries in the world in which the age of consent is under 18 years old. And the way in which some people misuse the term 'pedophile' pisses me off.
Some people have turned that term into a witch hunt, and this is not only ignorant and stupid, but also incredibly bigoted and arrogant.
2.- I find it extremely hypocrite that a person who admits that a person under the age of 18 can be sexually attractive is the subject of attacks and insults. If anyone grabs a basic biology book they would release at how old the human reproductive age begins and the why it is fact of nature to find some adolescents sexually alluring, ultimately is mother nature's way to ensure the preservation of our species.
Now, I wouldn't date an adolescent girl, simply because we are not in the same channel or frequency, I would get bored quickly. But that doesn't mean that I can not find them beautiful, just like Lily Cole, who even though she was over 18 when she filmed this movie, she could easily pass as the 16 year old character that she portrays.
I have dated women who are 10 and even 12 years younger than me and NONE of them were adolescents however, I never had many troubles in that kind of relationships, I can difference an adolescent from an adult (basically based on mindset) and from a child, but some people are really hypocrites when it comes to the differences between adolescents and children.
Christianity's GREATEST ally and BEST friend throughout history is Satan
If you found Valentina to be sexualised you must live in a very sheltered little world (a nunnery perhaps?). Meanwhile back in the real world relationships like Tony and Valentina's (an adult and a supposed minor) happen all the time. While I can understand your prejudice, I believe in the case of this movie you're grasping at straws.
shareI find it sad that most people here think that 16 year old girls are taken advantage of by older men. I know of more girls that use older guys to get what they want (money, clothes, drugs, booze etc..) than older guys that take advantage of younger girls.
Most girls know exactly what they are doing, And no guy in their right mind would say not to some young girl (Whom most dress like skaks) who came onto them. Open your minds and look into the real world. Girls are not innocent anymore and most girls now days initate the sexual activity, not the men.
Let's not jump to absolutes based on something that you have only a personal experience of. There are probably plenty of incidents involving manipulative women using their bodies to "take advantage of" (though in a consenting relationship i'm not really sure where one can start to claim power over the other) men. Men who, by the way, are probably aware enough to realize the dynamic in this relationship and are just as much to blame for exploiting some aspect of it. If you aren't aware of this dynamic then you should probably put time and energy into a nice, modest girl who can provide you with real support in comparison to playing suga-daddio, know what i'm sayin? Anyway my point is that there is absolutely no way to say which gender is the one that "initiates" now-a-days and the numbers are probably so close to even that the need to blame one sex over just seems to reflect a reality that only you live in.
shareSomeone who married at 18 is appalled by the thought of someone having sex at age 15 with an older partner?
Really, this world baffles me.
Age is just a number. Some people live their lives in 40 years, others live theirs in 80+. Who came up with the number 16? And who came up with the idea that partners have to be of near-identical ages to engage in sexual relations?
I know where you're coming from when you say that watching an old dude have sex with a young girl is gross, but that's because I've seen 'Dateline' with Chris Hansen as well.
Yes, laws define when it is okay for an older partner to have sex with a younger partner, but there is no law against a woman above the age of consent having relations with a man much older than her.
Look at Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes. He's 48, she's 31. That means when she was born, Tom Cruise was celebrating his 18th birthday. When she was 16, like the girl in this movie, he was... wait for it... 34, about the same age as the guy in this movie.
If she's old enough to have sex with other 16-year-olds, why isn't she old enough to have sex with a 34-year-old? It makes no sense. Not all old men are sexual predators. Tom Cruise, while a member of Scientology, is hardly a sexual predator, primarily because he married and had a child with his "victim".
Once they're legally old enough to have sex, take those Chris Hansen OCD's and toss them in the can. People have opinions, it's part of why we're so annoying all the time. For instance, it's my opinion that 18 is far too young for anyone to get married.
But that's just me...
"Girls are not innocent anymore and most girls now days initate the sexual activity, not the men."
And hasn't it occured to you that this is actually a problem ? Everything in the world is teaching girls it's right to use their sexuality for anything and that's how you end up in trouble.
Back when I was in High School, one of my friends who was 14-15 at the time started hooking up guys who were 25 to 27. She was pretending that it was because they were much more mature, etc. etc. but she was actually doing it because she wanted to make other girls jealous andget the attention of her father. You think the older guys weren't suspicious ? Of course, but they were looking at her like an easy *beep* And I'm citing this girl as an example but I would be very surprised to find out she's an exceptionnal case.
You're saying no guy in their right mind would say no to a young girl ? I understand young woman, but while you're like in college or working your career you'd be interested in a teenager who goes to school ? Ooooffff it seems to me like the psychological distance is way too big...
Besides, you think it's a good thing that the media encourages girls to use sex in order to get money, clothes, drugs, booze, etc? Because I think that goes with the point... if it was everyone, I don't know, but this whole thing is coming down to feminism also... it encourages women to spread their legs for men and do whatever men want to get rubies ? I know it wasn't technically the original point but it's linked, because women are way more influenced by all this than men are.
Sorry about the long post, I needed to blow some steam
I Live for Rock and Roll, And Never Look Back ! I'm a Rocker, and No One Can Take It Away !
In the context of the film:
It seemed to me as though Valentina was playing to Tony's affections as she saw him as a way out of her odd life to one more normal.
The film was based in England, where the legal age of consent is 16. Was she, a few days prior to her 16th birthday, just a daft child? Would a few more days allow her to have reached sexual maturity? If there was no such thing as the leap year she would already be 16, does movement of the earth really dictate when we're ready for sex? Are women taught to use their sexuality for their own ends? Are they not also warned of the dangers, some choosing to use it regardless?
This thread is so full of gender generalisation it's like you've collectively pigeon-holed the entirety of the human race. Men are morons led by their penises, and women are manipulative prostitutes using their bodies as payment for trinkets. Let's all blame the media so that we can avoid looking at our own deficiencies!
Hmmmm well I'm sorry but I'm judging by what I see around me. I never said that OMFG EVERYBODY'S LIKE THAT MEN ARE SO EVIL THEY JUST WANNA SCREW YOU AND WOMEN ARE DAMN SLUTTY B!TCHES !!! Spare me the Jesus freak speech please. But it IS true that in Western societies, there IS a problem around how sexuality is used, not only in the media, but in everyday life and education.
Andabout legal age of consent, it's because you have to draw the line somewhere. It doesn't mean it's an extremely strict rule. Jee.
I Live for Rock and Roll, And Never Look Back ! I'm a Rocker, and No One Can Take It Away !
No kidding. The gender generalizations and overall sexism in this thread is disgusting.
The word you guys are looking for is "informed consent" and this movie kind of deals with exactly that.
Many fantasy movies portray girls that age coming into their own sexuality and/or adulthood or self discovery...Labyrinth, Legend, Mirrormask, the girls in these movies were all about 15. When I was this age it was about exploration of all kinds. Perhaps that is why it is a popular age in fantasy films. It shouldn't ruin the movie for you...In my opinion, Valentina seemed much more at ease than Tony did.
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.