fighting the urge to track down Bob Cilman and slap him for embrassing that guy who just couldn't get those two lines down from "I Feel Good"???????
shareAfter watching this, I can't think of a film I was least likely in the mood to slap someone...particularly Bob Cilman. So, no. Not me..
shareI thought one of the weaknesses of the film was how little we got about Cilman--he really seemed complex, and not always in good ways. for example, while I understand not wanting the chorus just to sing oldies, it seemed to me that he went out of his way to pick songs that were alienating to his members, that didn't take into account the natural cognitive challenges of people of that age range (obviously, some had great memories, but some loss of memory is simply natural at that age). Yes, he mouthed the right sentiments when being filmed, but I wasn't always convinced. What made him tick?
The actual chorus members, however, were great people--fully developed "characters," so to speak, many of whom I will remember long after the film and its smarmy, intrusive primarily off-camera narrator.
I was a little mad that he said what he said, mostly because of the way the man just LOOKED when Cilman said what he said. I just wanted to reach through the scene and slap him.
Unofficial Site
www.freewebs.com/davidorth
I guess we all have different reactions to things. Having lived among and around "the elderly"--and now I'm almost one--the false cheer, platitudes and/or condescension that such statments like "that didn't take into account the natural cognitive challenges of people of that age range" not only presume a lot about a group of people but condemn them to lower functioning, both emotional and intellectual, before you even get to know them.
What I appreciated most about Cilman was his refusal to play "cute" with anybody. A group that has a world-wide audience is a group that is disciplined, unique and works hard. You don't get that from coddling or aiming low. The group labels Cilman a task-master. If they don't mind, why should we?
I thought the brilliance here was Cilman's choice of songs that we often hear as only "noise." But in this group's hands, not only do we hear the words (maybe for the first time), they resonate in ways that comment on the group and on us.
Had the film been "about Bob Cilman" I think we would have lost knowing people in the group. All the chorus members who we do get to meet, we get to know in a vivid way. While some are clearly putting on for the camera (for instance, Fred Knittle had a facade that broke down only occasionally, most importantly when he sang, the patter with his wife which must have been staged a thousand times was still priceless, and his fragile health probably called for a certain brittleness just to get through the day), we get a large dose of what it's like to be with these people and what singing these kinds of songs has done for them: Brought an energy both to them and their audiences that, say, a selection from "My Fair Lady" wouldn't have done.
It's a gimmick, a novelty, but I thought it worked like gang-busters. I don't think beginning with "they can't" would have gotten to the remarkable conclusion of the film: Yes, they can...can.
I completely agree, Michael Fargo. Wasn't a lyric from one of the songs they sing along the lines of "We aren't children"? These chorus members want to be taken seriously, and patting them on the back when they screw up is not taking them seriously.
shareExcellent statement. Very nicely written.
shareExcellent response to the morons that would have Cilman treat the performers as children. Y@H may be a gimmick but it's also a professionally run business. The few things I missed were auditions (what must they have been like) and some sense of salaries the performers were making. Also how in the world they toured country after country w/o dropping like flies!
shareI agree with you,
I beleive, it may even be a form of respect to expect the best from them and not be condescendent.
And also the choices of songs definitely resonates differently when you know the stories of the performers.
Thank you Michael Fargo!!! from a 63 year old certified lifeguard. As my Mother used to say before she died at age 92, "Keep on aging!" This documentary spoke to me.
share[deleted]
would have been great if the story did not focus on those same 4-5 people
I would have liked to know more about why Cilman chose to spend good part of his life with doing this type of work--not saying it is not great or helpful or anything-=-
just why==how did he get to this point--how hard is it to keep group like this functioning in the arenas of budget and seeking out concert venues and marketing...
would also like to know about how they audtion people for the group and how other members interacted--one woman was obviously new--and looked good bit younger than the others--
we don't even know names of each person--that seems pretty uneven distribution
I think the filmmaker kind of fell into like with some of those members and though their stories would generate the more response from watchers--because of the humor/sympathy/general likeability of the ones he focused on--
obviously he did not hope anyone would die--but you can't deny that having two deaths of people that we grew to admire and could see were very loved by the group had a significant emotional tie with the audience...
"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."
yeah that was pretty mean, or 'I think I can can can cannnnnnnnn' i mean give these guys a break.
shareI guess none of you have been in a choir/band/orchestra/etc?
Cilman was a sweetheart compared to most.
But if he'd been too sweet, that would've been disrespectful. They call that "the soft bigotry of low expectations." These guys had pride in what they did, and a big part of that pride came from doing the job professionally: Showing up three times a week, working over easter, etc.
He didn't need to be too rough, but he was just rough enough to prick their pride a bit. That's what made a lot of these numbers come off ("Schizophrenic", "Yes We Can Can" and "I Feel Good").
It's shocking, sure, but you could see that part of the reaction to hurt feelings was to try harder. I think he did it just right.
-------
http://bitmaelstrom.blogspot.com/
Fight the storm.
I wasn't impressed by some of the things that Cilman was filmed doing/saying to the chorus members, but figured that we were seeing snippets out of full context. That particular chorus member came back with one of the best lines from the movie; "Bob chews nails and spits out rust". He also said something about giving it (attitude) back to him.
shareagree with Michael Fargo and Xyzzy- Bob Cilman was mild compared to some of the music directors I've worked with and these folks wanted to be stage-ready. I'm ready to find a Young@Heart group in my neck of the woods, though it looks as if the qualifying age is 70! Loved the affirmation by several of the singers that singing is something you can do/keep doing because it makes you feel good.
shareNo way dude. Bob Cilman is just real with them. That's the problem is people talk down to elderly people like they are kids. I think they respected him and loved him that much more just because he was so intense and hard on them. It probably is refreshing for them to be treated like actual human beings.
shareYeah, I thought it was mean as well when the director laughed out loud and said "do you think you were in tune?" :(
shareAgree with M. Fargo fully. These are grown ass people, and beyond the gimmick is a group of professionals who perform for audiences around the world. If Cillman isn't honest and upfront with them and lets too many things slide, the show wouldn't get past its gimmick. The last thing these people want to hear is something like, "Oh thats so cute, he doesnt know the words"
shareLooks like the word, honest, has much broader meaning than I've thought. I see that's how the views here vary a lot.
shareI was surprised to see Cilman performing on centre-stage with the group. I don't think he should have. He's the director and most directors keep the hell out of the limelight.
Paradise is exactly like where you are now, only much, much better.
I thought that too when I first watched it but now that I've seen it again I think what he did was perfectly fine. He filled in for Joe at the concert probably because no one else knew the part considering Joe died so close to the date of the concert. Other than that he was just directing the group onstage like any other choir director would do.
"All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine." -Jeff Spicoli
I was surprised to see Cilman performing on centre-stage with the group. I don't think he should have. He's the director and most directors keep the hell out of the limelight.
You use the word "douchebag" to describe Bob Cilman? I've seen this movie twice, and it is the most powerful film I've seen that sheds real, honest light on the lives our elder citizens live--their hopes, fears, and joys that are largely ignored by every kind of media. The reason the director even got to tell this story was because Bob Cilman cares so much for this group. Re-read this thread then take down your ignorant post.
You do a pretty good douchebag impersonation yourself. We're just talking about a movie, calm down son.
share
Questioning your use of a grade school word, and explaining why that use of the word in this context is disrespectful and inappropriate, makes me a "douchebag" too? Given who you're handing this insult out to, I consider myself in good company. Really, try reading the whole thread, then think about what you wrote.
Aw come here and give uncle rooprect a hug, you angry boy.
share