John Woo, good and bad


I can not belive that John Woo joined this project, but he changed the whole movie.

pro:
John woo's style dominates the whole movie. cool fighting sequence, double-team shooting back to back, bullet time. It's such a reminiscence of John's 80's HK movies.

Con:
John changed the whole Appleseed style, and he has lost his creativity. I'm sorry to say this, since I'm a huge John woo fan. I would rather see a new title or a completely different setting, than naming this a sequal to Appleseed. The twisted plot and subtleness of story-telling is all gone. The characters got insanely talkative and clicke. John woo focused on the main characters, but they are mundane and quite predicatable. John woo has told the story 100 times in HK and similar plot has been in 1000 hollywood movies.

After all, "appleseed" is a great Japanese anime following "ghost in a shell" heritage. "ex machina" is a just another pretty-looking hollywood movie with John Woo, but not to the height of "face off" or even "broken arrow".

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Yes this was a sequel. It had the same director. Woo simply consulted and had some input on the project. That's like saying season 2 of Stand Alone Complex had nothing to do with the first one because Mamoru Oshii worked on the second season but he didn't the first.

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Stand Alone Complex series has maintained the style.

Woo has a much bigger influence though. his name is the first in openning scene, his style overrules the whole movie. it does not like a sequel to Appleseed anymore.

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the story telling of ex machina is much more John Woo than #1. would it be like this without Woo's involvement? it's either from Woo's contribution or director tried too much to appeal to Woo. Appleseed one has great storyline and subble story-telling, which is very different John Woo and they are all gone to comply with Woo in "ex machina". if only the appearance appeals to you, go watch some "american's next top model".

go watch some John woo's earlier movies and watch the first Appleseed again before you comment.

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You don't make any sense at all. You can't even spell subtle, so I don't know how you can even understand the meaning of subtle story-telling.

They wanted to raise the stakes for the second movie like most sequels do, make things bigger, cooler, this is nothing new for a sequel. It was far better than the first one with thin one-dimensional characters and a very glossed over plot. It was better than the original in every way. Briareos actually was a more human and emotional character like he is in the manga. He and Deunan are actually a couple. And he even uses his landmate cap. There's one subtle thing they added in there. In the manga for his landmate, Briareos wears a little helmet that wasn't in the first movie.

Woo simply added his input that the production apparently wanted, but his involvement was not as big as the production and marketing makes it out to be.

Yes some of the storytelling would've been the same. If you watch the DVD they talk about how a lot of concepts you would think were John Woo's ideas were already written in for the sequel before he came on. Watch the extras.

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so you are the king of spelling bees and that makes you king of movies, OK?

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I already addressed your inaccurate and illegitimate arguments and that is all you have to say in response. Figures.

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John Woo messed Appleseed up....plain and simple. I agree if this would have been called, "Olympus," "Bioroid," or anything other than Appleseed, I would have been fine with this film (kind of).

THe fight sequences went overboard at times. I couldn't stand that back to back fight scene. Deunan flips over Briareos' arms while he's shooting.....COme On!! That was just unnecessary. And just plain stupid.

Deunan's characteristics wasn't the same. She was way too dependent on Briareos. She kept calling his name throughout the whole movie. "Briareos!...Briareos!" It was giving me a headache.

Briareos character wasn't the same. He wasn't calm and relaxed like how he was in Appleseed 2004. He was too angry in this one, for example; the sparing scene. He kicks the guy's butt out of anger, then tells him, "If anything happens to Deunan I'm holding you accountable." The guy just wanted to go a couple of rounds with Briareos, not fight him for Deunan. So where did that remark come from?

And they brought Briareos' age down to match Deunan's.

This simply wasn't the same Appleseed.

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1. Deunan is super-athletic and acrobatic. She did the slow motion flips and fancy gun slinging in the first movie. Did you forget when she flipped over that dude's claw early in the beginning of the first movie. In the manga, Deunan is similarly athletic and yes she does the flips and twists. It's a sci-fi fantasy story. Law of physics do not apply, especially when they are wearing enhanced body armor.

2. In the manga, Deunan is depedent on Briareos. Why? BECAUSE SHE LOVES HIM! Briareos and Deunan have a close love that few can match. To Deunan, Briareos is her emotional rock. He's the only person Deunan truly trusts AND he's the only one that has the key to her firmly locked away heart. When Briareos was recovering in the hospital from gunshot wounds in the manga, Deunan left their bed and slept on the floor with a Briareos plushie.

3. It's about the fact that the guy was hanging around Deunan and Deunan was acting all "confused" about Tereus. Not to mention THE GUY HAS HIS HUMAN BODY! Briareos is stuck in a 75% cybernetic Hecatonchires model body. And yet Tereus has his old face pre-accident. So suddenly this guy who looks like the HUMAN Briareos is partnering up with Deunan, and of course that's going to tick Briareos off. Briareos is also a HUMAN, he's not a robot. He's just as irrational and emotional as any other human. Briareos losing his cool fit the tone of the story. In the first movie he was a freaking stick and in the manga he's a much more interesting, faceted, and yes EMOTIONAL character and he does act up and act with his passions quite a bit. When Deunan nearly drowns on an op he goes NUTS and fights tooth and nail in order to dig her out. Deunan plays it down, but after he gets her out he's so happy he gives her a big smooch in front of everyone.

4. In the manga Deunan is 22 and Briareos is 31. In Appleseed movies which is a SEPARATE timeline from the manga Briareos is 31 and Deunan is 24. Appleseed Ex machina is set TWO YEARS LATER. OMG! THEY ADJUSTED IT BY TWO YEARS SO TERRIBLE.

I once again challenge any of you and question if you truly know anything about Appleseed and Shirow at all.

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if this is a sequel, we expect it to follow Appleseed 1. and my point is that it's totally messed up. so they should not call this a sequel.

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It does follow Appleseed. Nothing is messed up.

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gudoleboy2 said - 'Briareos character wasn't the same. He wasn't calm and relaxed like how he was in Appleseed 2004. He was too angry in this one, for example; the sparing scene. He kicks the guy's butt out of anger, then tells him, "If anything happens to Deunan I'm holding you accountable." The guy just wanted to go a couple of rounds with Briareos, not fight him for Deunan. So where did that remark come from?'

In the Japanese subtitled version I don't think he said that. He said something very simple like, "Satisfied?" right after he beat Tereus when they were sparring.

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Either way are both appropriate for his character.

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To Tturtle: Thanx, I think I'm going to watch the movie in the Japanese language with the Eng subtitles turned on, to see if it's any better.


TO vileone326-1: You don't have to like the movie just because it has the word "Appleseed" across it.

1. I understand Deunan is athletic. And one of my favorite scenes in Appleseed 2004 was when she flipped over the claw. But do NOT compare that flip to when she flips over Briareos' arm as he's shooting. One was necessary, while the other was just silly and unnecessary. She flips over the claw to dodge the hit. There is no reason why she needed to do a flip over Briareos' arm. That had John Woo written all over it. It was only place in the movie as dramatic action.

2. I could care less about some manga. I liked Appleseed because it was a good MOVIE. I saw the trailer for it, watched it, and thought it was a good flick. So upon renting Appleseed 2, I expect it to follow the first one. If Briareos and Deunan are together in the manga; that's fine. But in Appleseed the movie, they weren't together. In the first one, Deunan seemed to have a lot of respect for Briareos which resulted in her having some small feelings for him. And even then, that was only hinted at. Deunan was very independent in the first movie, which made her character seem strong. In this one she's too dependent on Briareos, which makes her seem weak. So they can do whatever they want with the manga but I have an expectation when it comes to Appleseed the MOVIE.

3. See we both agree his character changed in this one. And his "stick" like characteristics was a reflection of his age and not bad writing. They made him more energetic and emotional so his age would seem closer to Deunan's, in which they could start up a relationship between the two. They changed his character so they could make a relationship happen.

All this is a result of John Woo producing the movie. He messed up the Appleseed movie.

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I see your point and vileone's point.

1 - this flip even in slow mo didn't stand out to me. it was kinda contrived and i can see how it might bother some people

2 - i actually like this movie much better than the 1st one, but I think they did make Briareos seem a little less together and with it than he should have been. Duenan didn't seem weak to me, but she seemed to be more prone to crying and being maybe over emotional. They may have over did it a little. But it didn't seem like she was helpless. She was just concerned for Bri.

3 - All of that does not necessarily have to do with John Woo. They actually made this movie a little more closer to the manga (THE SOURCE MATERIAL) than the other movie

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I agree with some of you guys. Second movie seems like music video - it's all style&looks and no soul of original manga (first one had it at least a little ammount).
Beautiful Briareos/his clone, impossible cool moves (Devil May Cry anyone?), cliche lines... aw, come on!

Sorry for my bad english.

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1. I understand Deunan is athletic. And one of my favorite scenes in Appleseed 2004 was when she flipped over the claw. But do NOT compare that flip to when she flips over Briareos' arm as he's shooting. One was necessary, while the other was just silly and unnecessary. She flips over the claw to dodge the hit. There is no reason why she needed to do a flip over Briareos' arm. That had John Woo written all over it. It was only place in the movie as dramatic action.


When do people do that in John Woo movies? Prove that it was John Woo that instigated that. Her athletic and acrobatic abilities were consistent with the first film AND the manga. She constantly does moves like that.

2. I could care less about some manga. I liked Appleseed because it was a good MOVIE. I saw the trailer for it, watched it, and thought it was a good flick. So upon renting Appleseed 2, I expect it to follow the first one. If Briareos and Deunan are together in the manga; that's fine. But in Appleseed the movie, they weren't together. In the first one, Deunan seemed to have a lot of respect for Briareos which resulted in her having some small feelings for him. And even then, that was only hinted at. Deunan was very independent in the first movie, which made her character seem strong. In this one she's too dependent on Briareos, which makes her seem weak. So they can do whatever they want with the manga but I have an expectation when it comes to Appleseed the MOVIE.


Jesus Christ. At the end it's pretty clear they got together, at the end of the first movie that is. I guess you missed that scene when she's weeping over the nearly dead Briareos before the end of the first movie. Followed by her refusal to let him go on the gunship even it meant her life.

She's not dependent of Briareos, SHE LOVES HIM! She's confused because of the presence of Tereus, but she cares about his well being. But you know what, there is NOTHING, NOT ONE THING wrong with depending on someone whom you love! Briareos and Deunan have that, ACCEPT IT. You've put Appleseed on this ridiculous pedestal and you are simply ignoring that in the movie-verse, they used to be a couple, Deunan thinks he died, Briareos is revived and turned into a cyborg, and after all the problems they get together at the end. And in the new movie, continuing off of that they are "together now".

It's not the fault of John Woo or Shinji Aramaki that you are blind to this.

3. See we both agree his character changed in this one. And his "stick" like characteristics was a reflection of his age and not bad writing. They made him more energetic and emotional so his age would seem closer to Deunan's, in which they could start up a relationship between the two. They changed his character so they could make a relationship happen.


You aren't even paying attention to why his character was different.

1. The scientist was *beep* with his body and feeding him nano-bots that were brain-washing him and corrupting his cybernetics.

2. Briareos is the same age as he was in the manga, and continuing from the first movie. And guess what dude, sometimes PEOPLE change. In the first movie, Bri was cold to Deunan and stayed away from her at the most part, then he emotionally expresses his feelings and explains because he HATES how he looks currently and didn't believe Deunan could ever accept him in this way. Deunan says he's still the same no matter what and in the first movie she says POINT BLANK, "I DON'T WANT A FUTURE WITHOUT YOU IN IT!" All of this was in the first movie. And since they clearly got closer at the end of the first one and in the time until the second, it makes sense that they would change more and appear "closer" because THEY ARE IN LOVE! Appleseed has always been about Deunan and Briareos. You simply can't accept that, why I don't know.

All this is a result of John Woo producing the movie. He messed up the Appleseed movie


No he didn't. You just have a skewed, illegitimate view of the movies.

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