MovieChat Forums > Mammoth (2009) Discussion > WTF is this movie even about?

WTF is this movie even about?


There wernt even any explosions, automatic guns or sex scenes.

Hehe no but seriously...

It's about a dude going outseas, *beep* a hooker and goes home again. What is the sensmoral in this movie?

-Don't work in another country, your son will get raped and almost killed.
-Even nice and caring men will *beep* a hooker in Thailand.
-If you hire a nanny, you will lose contact with your daughter.
-If your mommy is away, you will miss her.
-Prostituded kids will steal your bike and your t-shirt.
-If someone offers you 42 million instead of 45, take it.

About an hour in I was just waiting for something, ANYTHING to happen, but no. At 1.30 I was hoping the ending would sum everything up and somekind of miracle plot twist would save this boring movie, but no.


That being said, I really like most of Moodysons earlier work and the movie was very well shot, good acting and some beautiful scenes, but thats not nearly enough to make this a good movie.

4,5/5

Anyone agree/disagree?

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Well, first of, there was a sex scene.

Mammoth is a movie without a well defined plot. It's about the soulsearching the characters go through. Nothing more, nothing less.

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All that's left of the mammoth is its ivory teeth, which has been commodified.

All that's left of humans is our blood and bones, also commodified.

We buy people, we sell people, we buy pleasure, we sell pleasure, we buy happiness, we sell happiness, we buy globalization, we sell globalization, we are transforming everything and the world into a commodity, and we are being transformed into commodities, and one day it will all be extinct, nothing remaining but blood and bone.

And there's much more this film is about.

As he illustrates in his earlier films, there's a direct link between the commodification of women, the parental abandonment of children, and the proliferation of western culture into underdeveloped regions. Also, in Mammoth, he expands the commodification of women beyond the sexual; the commodification includes dewomanizing women (a wife who no longer fulfills her husband because she's exhausted from working hard like a man, a mom who virtually nullifies her motherhood by dumping her child onto nanny 24/7, a working woman whose professional skill and expertise is symbolically nullified when she fails to save a child's life, and the death of the child represents the death of her mothering abilities and the death of the relationship with her child).

Globalization is a Mammoth venture and Mammoth problem, our problems in this world - social, political - are Mammoth, there is a Mammoth unbalance in this world between how we want to treat people and how we really treat people, between our intended goals and the actualization of those goals, between human rights and global capitalism, between our best intentions and the actual results of those intentions, a Mammoth of difference between the ideas of Democracy and Progress and Globalization and the application of those ideas.

Ta-tum, better than Babel, deserves award recognition, Michelle Williams and Garcia Gael Bernal and their daughter were excellent, direction flawless, lovely photography, a carefully metered and non-inflammatory critique of progressive politics and globalization and modern Western culture; if you're a person who thinks about the issues presented in the film, then there is nothing new in the film that you don't already know, but people who don't pay attention to what's going in the the global world and never think about the negative impact of modern Western culture will be given a good complex dose of reality to think about long after the credits roll.

Remember people, just because you're familiar with the social commentary of the film doesn't mean the film is boring or pointless. It means you're not the target audience. And also remember that just because this film doesn't contain
Moodysson's usual shock-dazzle-tricks doesn't mean the film is bad, it means he toned down his style in order to present his message to a broader, mainstream audience.

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I'm not trying to be inflammatory, i just find your review interesting and would like to get a few further clarifying answers.

"As he illustrates in his earlier films, there's a direct link between the commodification of women, the parental abandonment of children, and the proliferation of western culture into underdeveloped regions."

Can you explain what that link is? Do you think the mother in lilja4ever abandoned lilja because she cared about western culture, and western culture doesn't care about children? How is that message represented in mammoth?

"Also, in Mammoth, he expands the commodification of women beyond the sexual; the commodification includes dewomanizing women (a wife who no longer fulfills her husband because she's exhausted from working hard like a man, a mom who virtually nullifies her motherhood by dumping her child onto nanny 24/7"

Do you believe women can only be women if they serve the traditional role of housewife and companion to the man? Do you believe it's universal that working women are worse mothers and wives than housewives? Do you believe it's societal/capitalist pressure and conditioning that makes a woman want to be as successful as a man instead a natural need for self-realization?

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I'm a female, not a male. I wanted to clarify that before people attack me for being a male misogynist. When I posted my comment, I suspected somebody might pick upon something that I was hinting at, and I'm prepared to respond, knowing that I will probably be attacked, if not by you, then by another reader(s).

Can you explain what that link is? Do you think the mother in lilja4ever abandoned lilja because she cared about western culture, and western culture doesn't care about children? How is that message represented in mammoth?
Yes I do believe that was one of the driving themes of Lilja 4-Ever, and in Mammoth we see that from beginning to end. A few examples:

Michelle Williams abandons her daughter to a stranger in order to work professionally, and she cares more about her emergency patients than her own daughter (because she spends more time with them than her own child).

The negative effects of the Women's Rights movement and Western Feminism is a topic that people like to avoid, but the movement has been heavily scrutinized and debated in the academic world by all types of behavioural scientists because the rise of the movement has resulted in the decline and degradation of parenting and our children and marriage and education and health and Nature and sexuality and morals and ethics (I'm referring to the explosive increase of things like pornography, obscenity, female-and-child exploitation, sexually-based crimes, violence, the abortion issue, misandry, negative medical technology [cosmetic surgery, diet pills, anti-depressants, chemical contraception, etc] and even our government, which is forced to do things that traditionally mothers used to do).

Globalism has also given rise to the same declines and degradations. Progress has negative effects, everybody has equal rights and all countries are helping each other and multiculturalism promotes tolerance and understanding, but feminism and globalization and progress are also destructive and the victims are children. Life is severely out of balance.

Williams and Bernal think that money is all that is required to raise their daughter, and not quality time. Although based on Bernal's acting, his character was aware that his lifestyle was out of balance and disconnected, but his wife did not realize it until the young boy in the hospital died.

Neither she nor Bernal seem to know or care that their daughter's nanny has her own children - they express a blatant disregard for the fact that Gloria could be a mom, and if they know she is a mom, they don't care at all that she is a mom separated from her own children who are still living in an underprivileged, underdeveloped environment with minimal guardianship and guidance and protection. All they care about is buying someone at the cheapest rate possible to watch their daughter 24/7. We know this is cheap labour because of the way her kids are living (her one son kept looking for work). If she was earning decent wages, the boys would have been living in a better area, her boys would at least have been attending a private Christian school (and living on campus) in the Philippines, no longer part of the squalour.

Both Williams and Bernal support globalism and directly benefit from globalism (a cheap foreign nanny and Leo's affluent transcontinental job marketing global website technology) yet they are oblivious of the negative impact of globalism on poor nations, negative impacts which include engendering the prostitution of minors (Leo and the Thai girl prostitute who also has a child), providing "opportunities" for unskilled women like Gloria to abandon their children and sell themselves to Westerners for any amount of money to perform whatever unskilled services are required, and transforming natural landscapes into gaudy tourist sites.

American fast food and American alcohol were available in the Philippines and Thailand sequences, the locals bent over backwards treating Bernal like royalty, Western beats infiltrated the Thai club, the Thai people turned a blind eye as the Thai girls sold themselves to Western men for money, in the Philippines the nanny's children were trapped in poverty and it was implied her oldest son was violently raped, and even though she abruptly left America to be with him, she left with no help whatsoever, who will pay her medical bills, will the local Philippine police investigate her son's rape, how will she support herself, will the American couple actively try to help her or will they write her off as a bad nanny who could not be trusted and hire another foreigner to exploit?
Do you believe women can only be women if they serve the traditional role of housewife and companion to the man? Do you believe it's universal that working women are worse mothers and wives than housewives?
Well I won't mince words, I've undergone several ideological transformations regarding certain issues, this being one of them, and I definitely feel that women are first and foremost mothers and housewives, and their prime duty - along with dad, dads need to be 100% involved in the upbringing of their children - is to focus on raising children. The raising of a child is infinitely and immeasurably more important and more rewarding than anything else a woman can accomplish because children are the people who make the future.

At one time I felt that the women's rights movements were necessary and productive, now I feel the opposite.

Feminist rights movements have unwittingly unraveled some of the most binding and important social bonds in existence. The "liberalization" of women has unwittingly resulted in the "liberalization" and even mainstreaming of some of the most dehumanizing treatments of females and children by committed men.

It's created destructive ideological and social hypocrisies. For example, the abortion issue. I'll throw my comments about that it in spoiler tags so you can choose to ignore it, but it's enough to just say that word, and people will tear each other apart.

A woman has the right to unconditionally terminate an unwanted pregnancy at any point in the first trimester, but a man has no right to refuse to support an unwanted child(ren); a woman has the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy late in the second trimester when the fetus is a living viable human being, but a man will be charged with the homicide of a child if he commits a federal crime that results in the loss of a pregnancy at any stage in the pregnancy; 35 states and the federal government grant the unborn-in-utero full legal protections in cases of fetal homicide, and 25 states, including the federal government, grant the protections from conception on wards, yet a woman is legally allowed to terminate a pregnancy at conception; there are also state embryo/fetal/prenatal laws (20 states) that protect an embryo/fetus from a pregnant woman caught smoking or consuming alcohol or engaging in drug use (she will be arrested and forcibly placed into a rehabilitation facility up until the child is born, and many women have been forced to remain in a rehabilitation facility for the entire pregnancy, the full 9 months), yet first trimester abortion and early-state second trimester abortion are unconditionally legal.

I could go on and on and on, and the point is that when a female does not want to be pregnant, she has the right to murder her unborn child, and the right to pretend her unborn child is either not alive or a virus or parasite, but if she does want her child, if she miscarries as the result of the actions of someone else, that person will be convicted of murder, and if she wants her child, the father is forced by law to support the child even if doesn't want the responsibility, and a man was no legal right to force a female to undergo an abortion if he does not want the baby.

Feminism movement pushed for Roe versus Wade and the result was legalizing the right of a woman to individual privacy, which meant legalizing first trimester abortions and excluding everybody else from making the attempt to protect the unborn-in-utero, and feminism went on to brainwash everyone to believe that abortion was legal in all trimesters (nope) and that the unborn were either clumps of cells (nope) or parasitic (a parasite is alive...) or viral (a virus is alive...) or alive but felt no pain (nope), and all in all this movement trumpeted abortion and reproductive rights as the cornerstone of women's rights when in fact abortion and chemical contraception issue commenced to destroy the natural cycle of female reproduction and female health, and destroyed maternity and transformed pregnancies into hateful events and demonized children as unwanted obstructions and destroyed the meaning of "family values" and the family unit and led to the unprecedented proliferation of single parenthood (which in turn necessitated the institution of a megatransformation of government assistance programmes) and created one of the most divisive political issues in the U.S.
Do you believe it's societal/capitalist pressure and conditioning that makes a woman want to be as successful as a man instead a natural need for self-realization?
Yes, absolutely

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I find your opinions very interesting, especially regarding abortion vs. other legislation, however i do have a few remarks.

"the rise of the movement has resulted in the decline and degradation of parenting and our children and marriage and education and health and Nature and sexuality and morals and ethics (I'm referring to the explosive increase of things like pornography, obscenity, female-and-child exploitation, sexually-based crimes, violence, the abortion issue, misandry, negative medical technology [cosmetic surgery, diet pills, anti-depressants, chemical contraception, etc]"

I think that might be too many things to squeeze in without some kind of explanation or rationalization. For instance, i understand that feminist self-empowering may decrease the importance of the role of a mother, as now self-realization takes precedent, and in fact the feminist movement rebelled against the notion of woman as a mother and wife. And i also see it influencing pornography, with the notion of taking control of one's sexuality and interpreting it as empowering to use it and put it on display. But i don't understand how it effected education, health, nature, child exploitation, sexually-based crimes and especially cosmetic surgery and diet-pills industry, since the latter two are pretty much counter-feminist. I can see it effecting sexually based crimes, but only in that they are more severely punished.

"yet they are oblivious of the negative impact of globalism on poor nations, negative impacts which include engendering the prostitution of minors (Leo and the Thai girl prostitute who also has a child), providing "opportunities" for unskilled women like Gloria to abandon their children and sell themselves to Westerners for any amount of money to perform whatever unskilled services are required, and transforming natural landscapes into gaudy tourist sites."

Gloria took the job because it paid better than the jobs available in her own country. Without globalization, wouldn't Gloria staying at home only lead to even greater poverty and greater inability to take care of her children? And as for prostitution, it's called the oldest trade in the world. Isn't it possible that the Thai girl would be prostituting regardless of the presence of foreigners?

"The "liberalization" of women has unwittingly resulted in the "liberalization" and even mainstreaming of some of the most dehumanizing treatments of females and children by committed men."

Can you give some examples and link them causally?

"(Re: societal/capitalist pressure and conditioning that makes a woman want to be as successful as a man instead a natural need for self-realization?)

Yes, absolutely"

But isn't culture the product of people and their desires? Or do you think in this case it's a product of powerful interest groups? In which case, what would be their motivation and goal?

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Gloria took the job because it paid better than the jobs available in her own country. Without globalization, wouldn't Gloria staying at home only lead to even greater poverty and greater inability to take care of her children? And as for prostitution, it's called the oldest trade in the world. Isn't it possible that the Thai girl would be prostituting regardless of the presence of foreigners?


I think he is noting also, that in this example, "Gloria", her family do not seem to have been lifted out of poverty anyway. Meanwhile, their mother is also absent.They're not particularly ahead of the Joneses, and they have no mother available. I think he is saying it is the worst of both worlds.

One would need a closer examination of their lives to determine if 'money sent home" from Gloria has at least improved their lot ,versus, what it would be. It might not be great, but quite possibly, without Gloria's foreign job, it would be much worse.He suggests either it has not lifted them up at all, or not enough to matter.For them, the Globalisation news is all bad.

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TemporaryOne:

First of all, I've never been for the legalization of abortion (except for cases of rape, incest, etc. etc.) because I think you make the CHOICE when you have sex, and it's never been an issue of choice. You can always adopt the baby off if you need. So I'm not some raging liberal on this. BUTTTT... I think you're taking some valid points and pushing them too far to the other extreme.

For example:

"Do you believe it's societal/capitalist pressure and conditioning that makes a woman want to be as successful as a man instead a natural need for self-realization?

Yes, absolutely"

I've always hated this idea of "successful." What counts as successful? I think in the end the true right to choose means you get to CHOOSE your life. Some women truly want to be homeowners, or mothers, that is their ultimate goal. Does that make them not successful? And yes, it's hard to balance a career sometimes with kids, but if you wait until the right time that can be done. Saying that women should go back to their traditional roles so families are "better" again seems both short sighted and wrong (in that it wouldn't do much to help families.) Some men also just want to raise kids and be at home, does that make them rejects of some sort?

The whole problem is trying to dump one ideal on an entire group of people, i.e. women SHOULD be doing this, men SHOULD be doing this. People are too varied and complex for that to work.

Now, the result of progress and greater freedoms means that sometimes choosing to go the old path is seen as regressing on the freedoms you've "earned," which is BS. And yes, modern American society still tries to push people into categories, and this is kinda warped now that we're a country that, as a whole, believes any individual can achieve anything. Not that everyone will, but that there is that potential in everyone. So we as a country have these notions of what counts as "achieving" your dreams, like the dreams of a person are the same for everyone. And this, I think, is where the problem lies that you seem to also have a problem with.

And, while I do think some parents over schedule their kids lives and their own lives, and that family time has been cut down on, I still think that this is a personal choice that has to do with the generation that is now becoming parents (the 80's GEN X-ers are all getting into their late 30's early 40's now) and that this will change too, as every generation is part of a cycle that seems to repeat itself for the most part. (There's an interesting article about this that says basically there's 4 generations, like overall mindset and attitude of a generation, that repeat over and over broad strokes wise.)

I also know that say, back in the 50's and 60's and the "idealized" time of family, many kids were told by their parents "be home by supper" and they just went off on their own and did whatever. Parents as a whole were more judgmental, too, and not everyone had the family time that supposedly has disappeared now. So things change for the better and yes, sometimes there are negative consequences as well, but I do think that's a bit of rose colored glasses. There's never been an era that truly had only minor problems.

And with that said, I think the current generation that's now late teens early twenties is going to eventually come of age and start to return to certain ideals that have been lost, while still keeping the progressive ideas that have shaped America in the last 40-50 years alive. Or maybe it'll be this generations kids who do that - I can't quite tell now, since there's a lot of faux-revolutionary thought that young people seem to like, even though it's all marketed to them and they eat it up. But look no further than the "Tea Party" of 2010 to see that in older people too.

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Both of you posted interesting comments that I'll eventually respond to.

At first I did not read the replies because I was positive they were attacks instead of normal responses. I'm quite thankful that there's a lot of room for regular conversation, and will eventually return to this thread.

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One of the most intelligent exchanges I have read on here in a long time. I am just watching the film now and for those people who think it is about nothing they should really read these postings.
Moodysson is quite a talent and I do think he compromised a little on this film but he had to. I hope it finds the audience it deserves cause it talks about the Mammoth in the room in an intelligent and thoughtful manner. It's the film Babel could have been without all the stereotypes.
I'll definitely check out the stuff you guys post in future. Moodysson obviously encourages smart thinking and things worth talking about.

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First thanks to those who broke it down... I was a bit lost.
Second I truly think Leo needs a good beating for all the
reasons you can think of, but that is just me. My major
problem is the time lapse of the movie this is smashed
into a week long trip or some two weeks maybe? The
opening sequence of the family at play is misleading in
that it gives a false sense of normality. Then there is a
disjointedness based on the fact that Leo has left the
country? These issues are faced by families every day
not just a long weekend. As for not being a "available"
to her husband, she tries to drag him back to bed before
his trip. The dialogue shared between husband and wife
over the phone tells me they have a strong relationship
and a trusting one, and yet Leo falls in lust with the Thai
girl. Promises her the world and leaves her after a night
of shagging. I am a bit tired and probably rambling so I
am going to quit before I get rolling on the issues of the
nanny trying to build a better life for her children. I will
point out that her job was not so lowly that she could not
afford to buy a one way ticket to the Philippines at the last
minute. While I was impressed to find a ticket for about
$700 most were $1000 to $2000 last minute flights.

Had a friend who told me a story about a friend of his who
moved to Africa and bought a hunting lodge and land to go
with it. He put on safaris and treated customers very well.
He also treated his staff very well, too well in fact because
local officials started making a point of harassing his staff
to the point one was beaten almost to death. He thought he
was doing the right thing by his people that worked for him
but the rest of the area saw it with greed. Humans are the
biggest issue with globalization because greed is a universal
motivator. The situation in Thailand and various other parts
of the globe where children and young people are sold and
traded as commodities is not new, it has been going on for
as long as world has been spinning with people on board.

Again, I think I may be rambling.... going to bed now....
Happy New Year to you all. Leo still needs a good beat down
in my book... Just sayin'

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As for not being a "available"
to her husband, she tries to drag him back to bed before
his trip.


Yes...but is there a kind of subconscious prescience at play there?

ie "Hey,whoa, you know what, I better fcku him b4 he goes away, might stop him getting a girl while he's away ".. ?

also...too little...too late ?

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I agree with jaydee13! Awesome discussion here about this movie.

Davida
"Claudia...You've been a very, very, naughty little girl."

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The problems beseting feminism is that in the call for equal treatment expression of that equal treatment was for women to be able to work and be financially independent - an economic vision - that would bring women into society with the same entitlement and rights as men. As you have written this vision brings with it loss in other areas and women are now as much slaves to money machines as men; there are a good many I know who want to stop working when they have children, but find they cannot afford to do so, and this isn't just to do with maintaining a certain lifestyle.

However, the effect of two world wars within a short space of time in the 20th century also meant that women working and being more part of society was a need that would have been fuel to the developing feminist movement.

So I wonder if you are 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' in respect to feminism. It didn't just happen because women wanted it, but because society's demands/needs of women changed too.

I agree with much of what you write about abortion too; the foetus is not just a clump of cells and even the word foetus is a way to distance from the growing baby so that abortions are sold more easily. But why is abortion on the increase? Because more women are having sex outside stable relationships thanks to contraception and changed attitudes on the part of some men and women. Even in stable relationships having a baby is not always desirable because of age, money, career, or the relationship. I find the abortion debate focuses sexual responsibility always on the part of the woman (she's not the only one having sex to get pregnant), which itself is indicative of what's wrong with society. It typically degenerates into discussions of women's sexuality; indicative of how little feminism has dented misogyny/attitudes. It has become a legal morass because neither women nor children are well protected in society (as we see in the film) and the only responsibility men seem to have is financial. This last is deeply ironic in terms of the film board that this discussion is occurring on.

I'm a fountain of blood
In the shape of a girl

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[deleted]

" the rise of the movement has resulted in the decline and degradation of parenting and our children and marriage and education and health and Nature and sexuality and morals and ethics (I'm referring to the explosive increase of things like pornography, obscenity, female-and-child exploitation, sexually-based crimes, violence, the abortion issue, misandry, negative medical technology [cosmetic surgery, diet pills, anti-depressants, chemical contraception, etc"

Oh, PLEASE.
You're actually trying to blame Feminism, the idea that men and women should have equal rights, for all of that?! Yes, ladies, it's all your fault that there are sex-based crimes and violence. How dare you ask to work outside the home! Now get back to the kitchen where you belong!
What a load.
You do realize there was pornography before Feminism, right? Not to mention all of the other things that you've mentioned.
And since when are "chemical contraception" and anti-depressants a bad thing??

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Feminist rights movements have unwittingly unraveled some of the most binding and important social bonds in existence. T



I'm not even completely convinced that it is always unwitting..

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Feminist rights movements have unwittingly unraveled some of the most binding and important social bonds in existence. T



I'm not even completely convinced that it is always unwitting..

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Globalization, that is what the movie's trying to tackle-a tough thing to deal with on film, but a good attempt compared to other previous efforts.

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You make some sense as it pertains to your list of six items, but the movie message, I like to think was more than that. It was thought provoking about these very issues you listed and simultaneously a bit heart-breaking because such situations are real.

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domestic angst

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I thought it was about mothers who work outside the home.

I didn't care one bit about Leo and his trip, but I was very interested in the mothers and their relationships with their children.

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Someone trying to make an "important" movie and not succeeding. REally it just wasn't that good.

When is Michelle Williams ever gonna smile in a movie? Seriously.
I've had it with her.

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Here we have an amazing discussion about the movie and the OP never returns of course because he wasn't ever interested in the movie and what other people had to say, he just wanted to barf his vomit out. ;-)

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The effect of a global economy and the world being driven by money and its effects on families especially between mothers and their children.

I found this a good film. 8/10

I'm a fountain of blood
In the shape of a girl

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