Sorry, but you go hittin' and stompin' on a giant hornet's nest like Russia, you better get ready for a world of pain.
If I was a Russian soldier entering Berlin in 1945, I would've visited my righteous anger on these Nazi scumbags!
I'm sure you probably don't because they took a sh*t on you and whipped your country's ass like a bad schoolkid. Good thing we here to save you
shareWhat a horrible thing to say. Childish and not well informed. Around 27 million Soviets died in WWII and you think it's okay to say stuff like this?
What would you say if 27 million Americans had died?
only if you're a Nazi sympathizer.
shareSo you would have raped those women too?
Good to know...
Well I'm just making clear that my little daughter doesn't come near a person like you who thinks rape is ok, but that is just me.
Did 12-year old girls deserve to be raped? Because, a lot were. Life isn't black and white, its very complex.
The Soviets did some pretty brutal things during the war. They invaded Poland in 1939(a non-nazi country) and deported thousands of innocent people to Gulags and Kazakhstan. Most of whose people died, including Women and Children. Not that the life of a woman is more important then that of a man but people only seem willing to condemn the Soviets when Women and Children are involved. Anyway they also invaded the 3 Baltic States(Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) and Moldova(then known as Bessarabia) in 1940.
From those 4 Countries the NKVD and the Red Army also killed thousands of People by Deportation. They also(especially in the Baltic States) raped countless women, burned down Villages(with people inside them) and tortured countless innocent people on the suspicion of being ``Anti Soviet``. And their Leader, Joseph Stalin was a mass murderer who killed 20-25 Million people.
history is a battle fought by a great evil,struggling to crush a small kernel of human kindness
Did 12-year old girls deserve to be raped? Because, a lot were. Life isn't black and white, its very complex.
Nope. Did 20 million Soviets deserve to die due to the Nazis attempts to conquer and enslave them? In the case of the Germans, as sad as it is--what goes around comes around.
The Soviets did some pretty brutal things during the war. They invaded Poland in 1939(a non-nazi country) and deported thousands of innocent people to Gulags and Kazakhstan. Most of whose people died, including Women and Children. Not that the life of a woman is more important then that of a man but people only seem willing to condemn the Soviets when Women and Children are involved. Anyway they also invaded the 3 Baltic States(Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) and Moldova(then known as Bessarabia) in 1940.
As bad as the Soviets and the Red Army were, they were far better than the Nazis, who planned to exterminate/enslave the populations of Poland and Western Russia so they could clear the area for German colonization.
The Nazi Crimes during Operation Barbossa were digusting and horrific. It would be too simple to say that the German women were innocent. But-as naive as it may sound-I believe that two wrongs don't make a right.
history is a battle fought by a great evil,struggling to crush a small kernel of human kindness
The Soviets acted exactly the same way when they "liberated" populations that were on their side in the war. This has nothing to do with the nature of the Nazis, but of the Soviets. More recently, the Serbs repeated the same thing in Bosnia, to a people with whom they share a motherland, language and customs.
So, yes indeed, the German women and civilians deserve our empathy.
What you say is true. The Soviets lacked the discipline found in Western armies at the time and officers themselves would get drunk and commit atrocities, thereby setting an example for the soldiers. And then Soviet propagandists such as Ilya Ehrenburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Ehrenburg) made quite an effort in filling Soviet troops with anger and hate, as seen in this article entitled "Kill the German!":
(Page 1) http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/d74f3760cf1e089292c2376f5e726f21.jpg
(Page 2) http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/51cbc683946022aac5ed23dd0a946602.jpg
No, they didn't. The majority of civilian casualties in the Soviet Union, died at the hands of the Red Army. They were either starved to death (scorched earth), raped and killed by the Red Army, or sent to Gulags. The Germans were disciplined and very rarely raped or killed civilians. Most of the atrocities were done by special death squads, and not by the Wehrmacht. The Red Army raped and killed whatever they wanted, including their own civilians and allies.
In case you've never opened a history book, the Soviets were infinitely worse than the Germans were, evident by the fact that the Soviet Union murdered and starved about 60 million people during their reign, more than half during times of peace. Compare that to Nazi Germany's 11 million, all during war time conditions.
Also, do you see the irony of your statement? Do you ignore the fact that the Soviet Union did to Eastern Europe, what you claim Germany wanted to do? Eastern Europe is still a *beep* today, as a result of the Soviet Union. Meanwhile, despite all the murdering the Soviet Union did in the name of communism, and the fact that they experienced a long period of peace, the country never prospered. They continued to live in poverty, like they had for a hundred years, while the corrupt elite lived like kings.
The Germans were disciplined and very rarely raped or killed civilians.
End of your credibility.
Most of the atrocities were done by special death squads, and not by the Wehrmacht.
Death squads composed of Germans, set up by Germans. The Wehrmacht's innocence is a very a old myth as well, as they actively assisted in the hunting down of Jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht
In case you've never opened a history book, the Soviets were infinitely worse than the Germans were, evident by the fact that the Soviet Union murdered and starved about 60 million people during their reign, more than half during times of peace.
The Soviet regime lasted over 70 years, the Nazi regime 12 (with most of their killing coming in 6 years). The Nazis started The Great Patriotic War, not the Soviets. Also, that 60 million number is probably a bit high and out of date.
Compare that to Nazi Germany's 11 million, all during war time conditions.
I thought the Germans 'rarely killed'. Which is it? Also, 'during wartime conditions' what do you mean exactly by that? That it was out of German control? That Nazi-apologist shtick is tiring and has been thoroughly debunked.
Also, do you see the irony of your statement? Do you ignore the fact that the Soviet Union did to Eastern Europe, what you claim Germany wanted to do?
I missed the part where the Soviets murdered entire races of people in Eastern Europe to clear the land for their colonization...what the Nazis were trying to do.
No, they didn't. The majority of civilian casualties in the Soviet Union, died at the hands of the Red Army. They were either starved to death (scorched earth), raped and killed by the Red Army, or sent to Gulags. The Germans were disciplined and very rarely raped or killed civilians. Most of the atrocities were done by special death squads, and not by the Wehrmacht. The Red Army raped and killed whatever they wanted, including their own civilians and allies.
In case you've never opened a history book, the Soviets were infinitely worse than the Germans were, evident by the fact that the Soviet Union murdered and starved about 60 million people during their reign, more than half during times of peace. Compare that to Nazi Germany's 11 million, all during war time conditions.
Also, do you see the irony of your statement? Do you ignore the fact that the Soviet Union did to Eastern Europe, what you claim Germany wanted to do? Eastern Europe is still a *beep* today, as a result of the Soviet Union. Meanwhile, despite all the murdering the Soviet Union did in the name of communism, and the fact that they experienced a long period of peace, the country never prospered. They continued to live in poverty, like they had for a hundred years, while the corrupt elite lived like kings.
I can now sleep better at night knowing armchair generals have a clear and moronically concise concept of morality that they can apply to complex world events, and will not hesitate to support justice-by-rape for people they don't like from the comfort of their sofas.
sharenot hesitate to support justice-by-rape for people they don't like from the comfort of their sofas
Nothing to do with 'justice'. I never claimed Soviet behavior was justified.
The Germans had given no mercy (in fact, they had gone out of their way to slaughter and burn). The Soviets wanted revenge...and given how bad the Germans had treated the Soviets...You should be asking why the Soviets hadn't been as brutal as the Japanese.
Hitler was a hero for attacking these scumbags and if he didn't attack they would have done the same to them as has been revealed in the Soviet archives, the shame of this war is on the Americans and British who had no right poking their noses in, they cowardly dropped bombs on Germany killing vast amounts of civilians knowing full well that the Germans were tied up in the east and what for?? the Germans had done nothing to them
shareHitler was a hero for attacking these scumbags
Hello Nazi.
and if he didn't attack they would have done the same to them as has been revealed in the Soviet archives,
They have revealed no such thing. Only joke revisionist historians think That Stalin was intending to attack Germany in 1941.
the shame of this war is on the Americans and British who had no right poking their noses in,
Yep. Totally correct. They should have just stood there and allowed Germany to do whatever they wanted on continent of Europe. /sarcasm
they cowardly dropped bombs on Germany killing vast amounts of civilians knowing full well that the Germans were tied up in the east and what for?? the Germans had done nothing to them
The Germans did have an air force, you know. Meaning that they could defend themselves in theory. That the Germans weren't as good at air combat as the Americans and British is too bad, though--maybe Hitler and company should have thought about that before they started the war.
So the Soviets are excused just because the Nazis were maybe slightly worse? Why do you feel the need to defend these atrocious acts? If X commits a horrible crime and Y commits a somewhat less, but still horrible crime, Y is suddenly the good guy?
Why do we even need to compare this? Soviet monsters raped, killed and tortured innocent civilians. In no imaginable context is it acceptable.
Joseph Stalin was a mass murderer who killed 20-25 Million people.
There are plenty of books by highly regarded historians that back up this claim. This is a known fact not a 'internet myth' and what you are saying is highly insulting to all of Stalin's victims.
1.)Stalin:The court of the Red Tsar By Simon Sebag Montefiore
2.)Gulag:A history By Anne Applebaum.
3.)The Whisperers:Private life In Stalin's Russia By Orlando Figes.
4.)Drawings from the Gulag By Danzig Baldaev.(warning:VERY graphic)
5.)Bloodlands:Europe between Hitler And Stalin By Timothy Snyder.
6.)The Forsaken:From the Great depression to the Gulags:Hope and Betrayal in Stalin's Russia By Tim Tzouliadis
history is a battle fought by a great evil,struggling to crush a small kernel of human kindness
1) Haven't read it. Sebag Montefiore is a credible author. I doubt very much he would back this.
2) Haven't read it.
3) Figes does not back up this claim.
4) Drawings? I'd settle for some statistics thanks.
5) Haven't read it.
6) Nope, not that one either.
I suggest you read Figes' book on the Russian Revolution and the civil war which followed. I suggest you also read Richard Pipes' book on the same subject. Read Figes' book on Revolutionary Russia - 1891-1991. David Glantz is probably the best informed military historian on the subject and he doesn't back the claim. He does, however claim that the total number of lives lost in the Soviet Union during WWII may have been as high as 38 million.
Do you even know about the infamous census from the 1950s? That's where a lot of this nonsense comes from. You do realise, don't you, that to kill off 60 million people over the 30-odd years of Stalin's rule would require the murder of almost five and a half thousand people per day, don't you? You do also realise that it would have accounted for more than 30% of the population, don't you? You do realise that no country can survive that, much less one that was fighting a war for survival, don't you? You do realise that would have required an entire army of killers to do it, don't you?
You see, common sense alone can counter a lot of that. It is simply impossible.
what you are saying is highly insulting to all of Stalin's victims.
jd-
You do realise, don't you, that to kill off 60 million people over the 30-odd years of Stalin's rule would require the murder of almost five and a half thousand people per day, don't you? You do also realise that it would have accounted for more than 30% of the population, don't you? You do realise that no country can survive that, much less one that was fighting a war for survival, don't you? You do realise that would have required an entire army of killers to do it, don't you?
Apparently youdon't realize Stalin starved 20 million Ukrainians to death during his "five year plans" to implement communism across the USSR. Stalin took away all farmers' grain in their silos, their livestock, etc., and redistributed it, according to Marxist doctrine.Oh dear. The opening of the old Soviet archives revealed a lot of things. Some were convenient and some not. The details of the Holodomor are now a lot better known and more widely understood that ever before. The current estimate for the number of people lost to the Holodomor is about 3 million. That is not the same as murdered or starved to death or any other emotive term you feel like using. Wiki has an excellent, well-researched (though not very well written) article on it:
Here's examples of books by men who lived in his treacherous totalinarianism regime.
1. Doctor Zhivago by Boris Pasternak
2. The Gulag Archipelago[ by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
The red scums should have been oblitarated in the war.I had relatives who fought in the war and i heard dozens of storys of how the germans behaved with the civilian population, exemplary! And the russian? like animals!
And in 1944 when we were overran by the russians the country became hell!
From shooting chickens and pigs to eat them like some savages to rounding up women and girls to take them to dig some imaginary trenches from where none of them came back.
Some of those "liberators" were astonished when they saw a floor in a house!...thats right, a floor! From were they came from the floor was the ground itself!
And for a "bonus" we ended up having a bloody communist regim for almost 50 years like the rest of eastern Europe.
This is the true face of the "poor" soviets.
Is this what you skinheads tell yourselves in order to sleep at night?
shareIf somebody is against communism and all the murders the soviets did he is automatically labeld a fascist? or a skinhead as you say?
To bad most people think this way....and the majority of them are westerners who didnt have first hand experience with the soviets.
You just called the behavior of the Nazi Germans "exemplary".
Look at all the atrocities Germany committed in the western allied occupied countries, countries that were considered "Aryan" enough. What do you think the Germans would have done to the east, countries that were considered "subhuman"? Are all historians liars, and you are right?
Yes, you are some kind of Nazi apologist and historical revisionist. Maybe you're not a neo-Nazi, you're perhaps just some kind of Nazi-fetish loser, there's a lot of these nowadays.
You hate a country's leadership. Your logical reaction is to rape, torture and kill the innocent civils.
Please never ever leave your home, because the thought of you interacting with other human beings is sickening. Better yet, just kill yourself.
Reading this and other posts makes me feel that people have some kind of hatred against Germans.
Is it envy of the attractiveness of the fräuleins or efficiency of the economy and industry?
[By the way, the world is entering a stage in which the Germanic countries are assuming supremacy while others are going from one debt crisis/asset bubble to another. Look at a map of sovereign credit ratings. Practically all the solid AAAs are Germanic: Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland.]
Hitler's highest success in the Reichstag was 37%. Then he seized power and people accepted it because the economy improved. But it only worked because of deficit spending, which was a temporary fix. The economy would have collapsed and Hitler removed by the people, but then he gave the economy free labor and resources from war gains. People did not know about the killings; they knew about the looting. But they were indifferent to seizing goods from other people or making others work for them. How are they any different from today's class-envy looters who want to tax the rich, tax corporations, get others to work for them to avoid working themselves...
As for collective guilt, there is no such thing. That kind of thinking is what led to decades of racial conflict in Eastern Europe, e.g. recently in Yugoslavia. To persecute an entire people for actions of their government (or others of their nationality) is an acceptance of sadism in society as preferable to law and justice.
"Am I supposed to feel sorry for the Germans??"
You don't have to but that would be nice. If you are not able to feel sorry, I'm sorry.
If I was a Russian soldier entering Berlin in 1945, I would've visited my righteous anger on these Nazi scumbags!