This film is very violent and disturbing, so be prepared. It's a true story so the reality hits hard, although I'm guessing the book is much more graphic. It's worth seeing for the history of the last days of the war and the beginning of Russian occupation in East Berlin as seen by Berlin women and the Russian soldiers. Saw this film at the EU Film Festival at the Siskel Film Center in Chicago, March 2009.
shareI agree with your assessment. I saw it at the Siskel Film Center in Chicago earlier this week. Having reading Leon Uris' book "Armeageddon" several times, I was well aware of the horrors of the Russian occupation of Berlin and Germany. But I've also read "Cross of Iron" and "The Forgotten Soldier," which details the German invasion/occupation of Russia and the endless atrocities. As one woman in "Woman in Berlin" said, if the Russians do as much to us as we did to them, there would be no Germans left.
My comments aren't made to start an arguement, just to point out the horrors committed by both sides. Quite frankly, I'm shocked by the actions of soldiers from any nation that commit these crimes against women. The movie, "Casualties of War" captures a similar American event in Viet Nam.
It is interesting that American military leaders condemn rape and prosecute rapists whenever the incidents are reported. But I really hope and pray it never happens again.
why is it interesting?
we should expect nothing less
...and it saddens me.
No, "Casualties of War" does not portray a "similar" event. That was one incident, one woman, and the perpetrators were put on trial for their offense. No similarity at all between that incident and the mass rapes perpetrated by Soviet Soldiers in Germany.
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Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world... but for Wales?
This is actually not true. Or it might have been partially true for the first troops landing in Europe on D-Day but by the time the third wave arrived, the cooks and such, they wanted a piece of the action and there were thousands of rapes in France, therefore against the women of your allies, with the perpetrators seldom being held accountable. Just one case, reported even in wikipedia, where stuff like is typically played down:
"In 1945, after the end of the war in Europe, Le Havre was filled with American servicemen awaiting return to the States. A Le Havre citizen wrote to the mayor that the people of Le Havre were "attacked, robbed, run over both on the street and in our houses" and "This is a regime of terror, imposed by bandits in uniform." A coffeehouse owner from Le Havre testified "We expected friends who would not make us ashamed of our defeat. Instead, there came only incomprehension, arrogance, incredibly bad manners and the swagger of conquerors." Such behavior also was common in Cherbourg. One resident stated that "With the Germans, the men had to camouflage themselves—but with the Americans, we had to hide the women."
Nothing like the Russians, of course, they raped and pillaged everywhere they went, also including their allies, but it goes to show WW2 was nothing like this just war of good against evil. The winners, champions of freedom and democracy like Stalin and Mao, would go on to kill even more people than WW2 and torment their own people, and half the Europe in the case of Russia, for 50 years to come. Few people in Central and Eastern Europe see any reason to celebrate May 9 as a victory day.
German soldiers on the other hand invariably behaved with honour and when rapes were committed, the perps were court martialed and shot. Actually, the more one studies WW2, the more one finds out that what really took place is often a polar opposite of what is being taught in school and shown in movies, it was an unnecessary war by an unnatural alliance.
This is actually not true. Or it might have been partially true for the first troops landing in Europe on D-Day but by the time the third wave arrived, the cooks and such, they wanted a piece of the action and there were thousands of rapes in France, therefore against the women of your allies, with the perpetrators seldom being held accountable. Just one case, reported even in wikipedia, where stuff like is typically played down:
"In 1945, after the end of the war in Europe, Le Havre was filled with American servicemen awaiting return to the States. A Le Havre citizen wrote to the mayor that the people of Le Havre were "attacked, robbed, run over both on the street and in our houses" and "This is a regime of terror, imposed by bandits in uniform." A coffeehouse owner from Le Havre testified "We expected friends who would not make us ashamed of our defeat. Instead, there came only incomprehension, arrogance, incredibly bad manners and the swagger of conquerors." Such behavior also was common in Cherbourg. One resident stated that "With the Germans, the men had to camouflage themselves—but with the Americans, we had to hide the women."
Nothing like the Russians, of course, they raped and pillaged everywhere they went, also including their allies, but it goes to show WW2 was nothing like this just war of good against evil. The winners, champions of freedom and democracy like Stalin and Mao, would go on to kill even more people than WW2 and torment their own people, and half the Europe in the case of Russia, for 50 years to come. Few people in Central and Eastern Europe see any reason to celebrate May 9 as a victory day.
German soldiers on the other hand invariably behaved with honour and when rapes were committed, the perps were court martialed and shot. Actually, the more one studies WW2, the more one finds out that what really took place if often a polar opposite of what is being taught in school and shown in movies, it was an unnecessary war by an unnatural alliance.
Very disturbing,exactly like my grand grand grandfather used to tell me when i was little about the eastern front and in retreat back to romania what the russian soldiers have done to every women(old or young)it did not matter to them,stole and raped everything in their way,unlike the german soldiers(Wehrmacht soldiers not Schutzstaffel)under the german occupation and afterwards alliance with romania,this movie showed me exactly what i heard and read in many books and written interviews by some french writers at that time.
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,then timlin-4 you should have been a very happy women if you lived at that time.
Read something FFS.
I don't even shake my head anymore when I hear juvenile comments. I have actually come to understand that there is a lot of mental illness that goes untreated. Sometimes it's a knee-jerk ADD/ADHD reaction and we have to look past these vulgar comments, or see them for what they are... simply uneducated filth that buoys to top. We can't let that filth froth there like a hot cappuccino from Starbucks. Rather, drink it in and move on without leaving the tip.
I've studied history at the university level -- though I don't want to come across as being snobbish or Whiggish and pretending to be brighter than others. Only, in this context it should give my comment some clout. The allies knew that invading Berlin would lead to a large death toll so they brokered a deal with Stalin, giving the Russians Eastern Europe. You may not know this but the war was starting to become unpopular back home -- though the media is evasive in pointing this out for nationalistic reasons. It's a "good ol' boys war that was won... and we won 'er the right way." Not so, the nuking of Japan was actually the only way the Americans would end the war without giving Asia to Stalin... He was willing to send the troops in and sacrifice hundreds of thousands. That was the estimation at the time about how many lives would lost invading that hornets' nest.
And the atrocities of rape. We shouldn't trivialize anyone's suffering as being lesser because they were recognized as the "axis of evil." History is always... And I mean always.... Written by the victors of war.
Am I understanding you correctly? You- a history major- think that the US dropped the bomb on Japan just to prevent Stalin from getting a share of Asia? I'm speechless.
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Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world... but for Wales?
When the Red Army arrived in Germany, they were a little disturbed themselves. Considering Germans committed more or less the largest - but unsuccessful- genocide in world history against Russians, and completely destroyed the infrastructure of Russia, the Red Army was disturbed to find the untouched quaint countryside of Germany and thought... "What the @$%! did they come to Russia for?"
So we can agree that the Russian people had good reason to be disgruntled, right? What reaction do you expect from a people who survived a genocide? Not rape? I don't think so.
It's okay to become a serial rapist because you've survived something horrible? What?
Anton Chigurh is dead and Spider-Man 3 is superior in every way to Funny Games.
I think it's okay to become a serial rapist if you're raping the wives of mass murderers. Just kidding.
On a serious note, the rape of Berlin was essentially an act of symbolic vengeance. The Soviet Union was not a misogynistic boys club. There were at least 1 million women in the Red Army and they were not the object of rape. It is a reaction to the subjugation the Soviets recieved by the occupying German army. It was a reaction to mass starvation, complete destruction of all infrastructure, as well as forced labor, gassing and other experiments at Aushwitz, rape, and also systematized rape at brothels to a degree proportionate to the German army. The feelings that end up being created in the victims that survive this is one of practically insane vengeance. To deprive them of that is almost to deny them of their humanity.
The germans are the reapers of what they sow.
Interesting notion, but in my opinion it's just an apologist's myth.
- The Russian Army were raping and murdering civilians when they crossed into German territory just weeks after the outbreak of World War One. The Russian army faced no resistance as they invaded and the German army at that time had not even mobilised in the East, let alone had time to invade Russia and brutalise the Russian populace. So why did the Russian Army behave like this?
- In World War Two there were many females in the Russian / Soviet Army. It is well documented that Red Army women as well as females in Partisan units were raped and were in fear of rape from male soldiers of the Red Army, throughout the war. Also to note are the accounts of Russian and other East European females liberated from German labour camps or work programmes, who were raped by thier Red Army liberators.
- In World War Two the Nazi armies invaded Russia, but they did not get as far as Uzbekistan, Kazahkstan, Georgia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Mongolia, Siberia and many other Central Asian countries of the Soviet Union. That being the case, and given the vastness of the USSR, how do you explain the behaviour of Red Army troops from these countries towards German civilians, particularly females? It is documented that soldiers from these countries behaved very bad and were even feared by Red Army troops from other places. There are accounts of 'Russian' soldiers hiding German woman from 'the Mongols'. I can not see it as "symbolic vengeance".
I believe facts are facts and that sexual crimes cannot be excused. These sexual crimes were on an epidemic scale and shamefully not only has discussion of them been supressed for so long, but the criminals have occupied our image of the heroes of WW2. It also begs the question "what happend to those criminals in the post-war?". Perhaps this is why the subject is still a very difficult one for many people to accept and study with a rational mindset. Instead it seems that many people simply look for the most politically-correct historical reasoning.
None of those Red Army rapists are "heroes." None of them should be honored. If there is a hell, every single on of them is burning in it right now.
The Russian Army apparently trained men to become these sexual predators, and judging by how much Russian life sucks now they really reaped what they sow. To explain gang rape on an epidemic scale as "their humanity" is disgusting. If that's their humanity, they don't deserve it and should be shot like dogs.
Anton Chigurh is dead and Spider-Man 3 is superior in every way to Funny Games.
First off, to Senator Corleone: The russian army apparently trained men to be sexual predators? Where did you get that? German text books during the 1940's? "Apparently" you're retarded. The Red soldiers that did the raping were the ones following to the front line. The red army soldiers on the front lines were quite heroic and for you to condemn every Russian in the war as rapists is hilariously ignorant.
Based on your generalizations, you don't read much do you? This notion that the Red Army trained rapists sounds like text book propaganda of the Nazis. There was no systematic rape, you sycophant. And Red soldiers caught raping civilians would be punished by their commanders. That's not exactly rape trained soldiers is that? Where do you get this stuff? Jesus.
Red Army soldiers would be killed for raping civilians. So basically Corleone, you have no authority to speak on this subject at all, especially with how certain you are about it. I.e. "EVERY RED ARMY SOLDIER WAS A TRAINED RAPIST THAT RAPED THEIR WAY TO BERLIN AND I HOPE THEY ALL BERN IN HELL BECAUSE THEY ARE MONSTERS AND HAVE NO HEROIC QUALITIES EVEN THOUGH THEY MADE THE NAZIS RUN AWAY FROM AUSCHWITZ."
I mean if a Nazis worst fear was a Russian, and Nazis are bad... doesn't that logically make the Russians on the good side? I think I just exploded Corleone's head.
"The archives indicate the rapes were not ordered or condoned from the top, Naimark said, but were instead fueled by "deep and complex desires for revenge" among the ranks. " From this article: http://news.stanford.edu/pr/94/940328Arc4364.html."; I hope everyone understands that the cold war has skewered the bias of history against the Russians.
To Kayn47: You seemed rather learned, thus I'm sure you're aware of the extent of German propaganda against the Russians during World War 2. I'm sure you understand that it was such permeating propaganda that it was palpable in the German people even before the Russians were even close to Germany. Like how Croatian and Bosnian claims of mass rape from Serbia turned out completely made up, you better not be getting this from German sources.
What I do not appreciate from you is calling me an apologist. You're implying that the rapes of the women was systematic and possibly egged on by the commanders. I'm being truthful when I'm saying the masses of rapes (at least 100,000) was fueled by revenge, and complexes derived from the German occupation, not just out normal rape motivation.
You should've numbered your points. I did not know that russian soldiers and partizans were being harassed by the Red Army. As it is well documented, you should find it easy to show me the source yeah? Until then, I'll consider it hear say.
What you are doing Kayn is singling out the Russians and ignoring German atrocities which occurred first and were much more brutal. It is a convenient double standard. I have little authority to speak on World War 1 but during World War 2, the Russians were not as vindictive as the Germans were to them. It seems natural that the armies reply in kind to a preponderate amount of violence that occurred on the Russian's home. You wonder about the particular antipathy towards Germans and especially German women, well that is why.
You say, Kayn, that the Nazis did not reach mongolia, siberia or those other soviet republics of different ethnicities yet they hated Germans the same. The people of those ethnicities were still in Russia at the time integrated into the Russian army when the Germans invaded so they had to experience first hand the German blitzkrieg, and Operation Barbarossa's POW camps (not much of a camp, more like a ditch with a bunch of starving red army soldiers.) Word eventually gets around of how Germans are treating the Soviets and so a particular vindictive attitude arises. I don't know why mongols and Uzbekistanis were particularly misogynistic but they took part in many of the sacrifices the Red armies took to kick the Germans out of Russia. Americans also treated German soldiers badly even though America was untouched by German military. I would say this is due to propaganda, but as for the Red Army fermenting hate of Germans in the soldiers, I would say this is more then just propaganda but actually warranted sentiment.
" American occupation forces also committed some rapes in their initial occupation of Western Germany, Naimark said, but it was not nearly so widespread in part because "prostitution was legal in the West, and there was lots of prostitution, semi-prostitution and informal liaisons."
Americans also may not have felt the need for revenge as much as the Russian soldiers, he said, because the Germans had not invaded America, and Germany was not as well-off as America. The Russian soldiers were shocked to find the superior living conditions in Germany compared to their own hardships at home, he said."
Lulz. So let's not throw around any names like apologist aya. I don't know what I'm apologizing for. Just saying that the Red Army is first made to go through a hellish abyss and then slapped with accusations that they're not behaving gentlemanly enough.
I just find it quite ironic that the people are disturbed by Russian war crimes when these crimes were completely provoked by Germany. The Germans paved the way for this with the way they treated Soviet populace and soldiers, and to talk about this without the context of what the Wehrmacht did in Russia is pointless.
Wow that's a lot of boring writing. Of course not every Red Army soldier was a rapist, but judging by the events in Berlin a huge amount of them were. And those people are bad people, even if they did kill Nazis. I stand by my statement. War is not an excuse to become a monster. You did all that writing to counter my assertion that people who rape women are bad people. You sound an awful lot like a rape apologist.
Anton Chigurh is dead and Spider-Man 3 is superior in every way to Funny Games.
"I'm being truthful when I'm saying the masses of rapes (at least 100,000) was fueled by revenge, and complexes derived from the German occupation, not just out normal rape motivation."
Or maybe they used it as a convenient excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway.
Response to 'loh263' - interesting points and opinion.
In the context of this discussion, Axis war crimes during the Eastern campaigns is knowledge to be assumed. My point was that sexual crimes cannot be excused - should not be excused, and the excuses you offer / the reason you have for offering, are weak and flawed.
For your reference, Re. Red Army sex-crimes against 'Red Army and Partisan' females, you should read:
"The Brigade" auth. Howard Blum / Pub. Simon & Schuster UK Ltd 2001 (chapter 24, from memory, either way it forms part of Leah's story, she was a Polish Jew who escaped the Nazis and joined the Partisans)
"An Author at War - with the Red Army 1941-45" auth. Vasily Grossman / Pub. Pimlico 2006 (can't remember which chapters, but you will find it)
"Berlin the Downfall 1945" auth. Antony Beevor / Pages 65, 67, 107,108,109
It is also well known that Stalin kept huge armies in reserve during 1941-1944 (please read up on this and find out for yourself). Large parts of those armies were from Central Asia. These armies formed signifant parts of those which invaded Germany in late 1944-45.
It was also Beria (I believe) who wrote a directive issued to all Red Army troops which went "Rape the pride of the German Woman and spare no Man". It is now commonly accepted that the Red Army high command and Soviet officials encouraged the mass raping of German women, not only as a war-tactic but also to destory the fabric of German society. It was part of the Soviet conquest. However, I believe that no man can be forced to rape unless he wants to / believes he will not be punished - so it begs the question, 'what kind of men formed these armies?'.
Later on, (end of 1945-46) there were reports of Commissaars complaining that if the rapes in the Soviet zone of Germany did not stop, then there would be a political repercussion for the Soviet administration.
There are many other sources which expose the fact that under US military law it was not illegal to rape a German woman - apparently there was not one court marshall in Germany for this crime, although there were many in France, Italy and even the UK, where US servicemen had raped local women!! My point here is that yes, the Soviets were not the only soldiers who raped German women - the Americans, British, French, North Africans etc...all have guilty elements. BUT this further magnifies my point that law, order, morality - as we know it - broke down completely at the end of the war, and soldiers were given a greenlight to do whatever they pleased with German woman and civilians.
This can not be excused. It was ordered, encouraged and condoned by military and political leaders - for their own ends. How and why you (loh263) are adamantly defending this is both illogical and worrying. You should study this subject further.
What humanity are you talking about there buddy boy? The humanity of Germans who only a few years ago were killing, and raping Soviet women. The Germans who were starving and killing the Soviet POW's? Or the Germans who were burning down hundreds of Russian, Ukranian and Belorussian villages, cities and towns? Oh, yes I guess you are takling about the lovely Germans who thought of Slavs as subhuman animals who diserved to be slaughtered (and in best case scinerio driven out to Siberia and the Urals). I can only imagine what U.S or Great Britain would have done to Germany if they even lost 2 or 3 million of their own citizens (considering the bombing of Dresden, I think much, much worse). I mean come on the Japanese destroyed a Naval Base in Pearl Harbor (U.S territory) and the U.S dropped 2 atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
PS
I don't justify rape. And what the Soviet army did in Berlin and Koniegsberg was brutal and very, very wrong. But this was revenge plain and simple. Revenge against the people who murdered their kin, revenge agains the people who raped and murdered their wifes and daughters. Over 17 million civilians DEAD! You're joking right?
YES WAR IS HELL
If it were revenge against those who killed their kin they should have been raping Nazi soldiers. What happens is one group of men rape the other side's women and the the men on the other side rape the first group's women. Why are the women casualties in men's wars?
share"It was a reaction to mass starvation"
They should have raped Stalin.
I would still go with that the Soviets were made up of a much more brutal society. You did'nt see the free Polish army(that fought along the allies as they were liberating Europe)& the Jews commiting these revenge atriocities against the Germans(allthough they made the rest of us suffer through countless of holocost movies,lol).
At the other end of the spector, towards the end of the war, roving gangs of SS troops killed & hung German Army deserters.
You mean the Poles who lashed out at the Jews after the war and had to be restrained by the Soviet military? As far as the Soviet Society being brutal, well yeah, no kidding, it was brutal. Stalin and his circle were all brutal men. He exiled and executed many people (this by the way include Soviet people as well, not just E. Europeans and Germans). But ask yourself this question, would the war be won without Soviet contributions? The answer to this question is A BIG FAT NO! Why do you ask? Well, I seriusly doubt that the Western allies would sacrifice so much men power to win the war. The Soviet were willing to do that. The Germans were willing as well. The Germans alone lost around 10 million people (civilians and soldies). What were U.S casualties (300,000 soldiers with practically no civilian losses).
At the end you just have to pick a side. Hitler or Stalin? Well, as much as it hurts me to say it, I pick Stalin. As brutal as he was (and he was bloody) he nevertheless was a major figure that was responsible for defeating Nazi Germany. You just can't take that away from him. If anything, just consider how many American and British (as wel as other allies including Poles) lives were saved (millions for sure). 80 to 90% of Axis forces were fighting in the East. Something to ponder about
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"I think it's okay to become a serial rapist if you're raping the wives of mass murderers. Just kidding."
That's not funny, in fact it's the exact logic that every soldier-turned-rapist uses to justify his hatred of women. Maybe you really were just joking with this comment but in case you were using humour (of a very humourless kind) to disguise your real opinion, then let me set you straight: raping the wife of a mass murderer does nothing to punish the crime itself. By the same logic, we should murder the wives of rapists, the siblings of pedophiles, the servants of petty thiefs and so on and so forth. What would all these senseless acts of violence achieve? Nothing! Revenge solves NOTHING which is why most wars, being predicated on a need for revenge, are FUTILE.
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No, these Russians were boorish animals. They committed rapes against non-enemy civilians as well. Men always try to justify rape based on what other men did. If men raped each other instead they might see things differently.
share[deleted]
So we can agree that the Russian people had good reason to be disgruntled, right?
This is completely wrong!
The Red Army went on a rape rampage wherever it came, even in countries such as Yugoslavia with allied Communists in power. This argument is just the excuse that used to rape, if not this, other excuses would be thought out, as in the more recent Balkans war, when the Serbs did the same to the Muslims.
They did it because they wanted to do and they could.
Wow. There is never an excuse for rape. THERE IS NEVER AN EXCUSE FOR RAPE.
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Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world... but for Wales?
I couldn't care less. The dirty Huns deserved everything they got and more. By all rights, they should have been exterminated.
shareyou are either sick or ill-informed. Perhaps both. Very sad.
This is a serious topic and should treated as such. Why not study it properly there is plenty of material out there.
Sigh
I have already read through Berlin the Downfall. I might pick up one of those other books at the libr for the plane ride home later today.
As a male, I don't mean to be antiseptic about the rapes that occurred during world war 2 but I don't see it as being worse then starvation or murder.
I have a separate issue with the actual accounts of the rapes that occurred. I do believe that parts of the Red Army were raping sporadically, and that the rapes did increase when they reached Berlin but that evidence is heavily based on German accounts and Germans have the tendency to make themselves up to be the victims as they are committing genocide. Not to mention the majority of Germans were conditioned to believe that Hitler was awesome and the Russians were rapist slave masters.
I would not be surprised if the majority of these accounts are unsubstantiated, not to mention contradictory and I wonder why these estimates of 2 million rapes are not as clear cut as German atrocities in Russian even though the dreadful eastern front is not well documented.
I mean who actually confirmed these rape estimates?
http://www.library.flawlesslogic.com/massrape.htm
I'm sorry I find this implausible. Thus far I have not been presented with evidence of rape, and not for lack of trying.
As for what actually matters in this thread...
To single out the Red Army for these war crimes is ridiculous. The Wehrmacht were not only raping up eastern europe but they were doing it systematically and setting up brothels. It would not make a difference to a German officer if a soldier raped a slavic chick, since anything goes when you're dealing with subhumans. This is not the case with the Red Army. For them it was sporadic not systematic and violators caught would at least be arrested. Not to mention the Red Army was substantially less racist then the Werhmacht.
So it comes at me with a cognitive dissonance that Germans would release a movie about Red Army war crimes completely out of context to the previous 4 years. Can anybody think of anything at all that would make the Red Army go berserk when they reached Germany? Anything at all?
It is this kind of epidemic obliviousness that I find in this thread.
I get the impression that you just don't want to accept these facts (I have cited several references and I am sure that you are aware of many other writings and documents on the subject, which have been accepted by historians).
It is ironic though, as you clearly believe the accepted history of Wehrmacht crimes on the Eastern Front - what makes these accounts more 'believeable' to you? Is it simply that you are afraid that what you were once taught may not have been the full story - or do you only wish to see one side of the coin?
As for rape over murder over starvation - I don't think that anybody on this board(certainly not myself) has tried to 'rank' one over the other. What made you want to make that statement - please point it out as I may have misread one of the posts.
As for the historical accounts of WW2 rapes (in Germany) themselves, I'm afraid that the sources range from British, American, German, French and Soviet. I will cite references to this affect - if you insist - as soon as I have the time, but I'm sure that you are aware of the broad spectrum of sources anyway.
And as for your claim that the Germans frequently portray themselves as victims - in my opinion, and I am certain in the opinions of anyboday who has worked or lived in Germany, or has known any number of Germans, or in the opinions of allied WW2 veterens of Germany, or the opinions of any well researched WW2 histroians - that the Germans not only DO NOT portray themselves as victims, BUT actively play-down any notion of being victims.
This shyness of being seen as victims, is something which has sparked some debates over the years. One of the causes, they say, is because of the collective guilt which Germans (including all post-war generations to date)feel as a result of; the election of the Nazis, the Holocaust, war crimes, and naturally becuase of losing the war. Perhaps it also has something to do with the German national character (which does still exist!).
How you can make such a statement forces me to question the motives behind all of your comments on this board - not least to hold in question some of your other sweeping statements of which I feel are not very well substantiated (although you have been very quick to dismiss those of mine, which are easily substantiated).
I hope that you managed to find copies of the other titles that I referenced for your plane journey home.
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After reading your latest post I would say that you seem less hypocrite, more ignorant and naive. You are perhaps just single minded and by your own admission you are not very well acquainted with this topic and whilst you ask for references - when they are given you simply dismiss them and revert back to your original stance.
You brush-off my points (which can be substantiated) as 'hear-say' whilst most of your own are exactly that - or at best they are generalisations, perhaps accepted as fact decades ago, but which are now tarnished with having be born out of wartime propaganda.
Remember that it is the Victors who write history.
You say that I had evaded your question - when in fact you have not answered any of mine - that is, not directly!
You made several points centering around the Germans being rascist, and the Soviets not being racist - and used that notion to help you explain German war crimes and Soviet lack of war crimes. This idea is RIDICULOUS.
To really understand the rascism and politics of WW2 Europe and Russia, you first MUST have a clear understanding of WW1; the interwar years; the ethnic groups and nations which made up Europe and USSR; and a complete understanding of WW2. You say that you are well read on the Nazi invasion of the USSR - if it is ONLY this which forms the basis of the extent of your knowledge on this 'topic', then I don't know where to begin with you!! You should probably stop making such sweeping statements, go do some proper research, then come back and start over.
You say that you 'know' that the Soviet rapes in (Berlin? Germany?) were not systematic. How do you know this? What sources have specifically said that the rapes were NOT systematic? The Soviet rapes in Germany and in ethnic German territories WERE systematic. A multitude of international sources back this up. The rapes in Berlin - at the end of the war and post war - took on several 'degrees' of 'types of rape' (as agreed by modern historians) but were nonetheless on an Epidemic scale.
War and Politics are not black and white - even at 20 years of age you should know this. I am 30 years of age. However, I am European and know my continent very well - I do not know where you are from...so perhaps I have the advantage over you on this subject.
Q: Why did the Soviets go berserk when they reached Berlin?
A: For simillar reasons that they went 'berserk' when they reached East Prussia, Silesia, Pommern, etc...simillar to why the Russian Army did the same in WW1 - because they could! They had no restrctions impossed upon them. Their leadership and propaganda encouraged them. It was war tactic. It was war ideology, the right of conquest over defeated people. It was cultural hatred against historical ethnic enemies. It was all of these things - nothing to do with your 'school-boy' rationale and safe histrocial PC notions.
By the way, I still find it shocking that you hold in question any German sources on this topic. Would you hold in question Jewish accounts relating to the Holocaust, or, Russian accounts relating to Barbarossa?
Hahaha. Hilariously enough this argument is getting me no where. Since today is thanksgiving, I am spending time with my family so I will make this curt.
Kayn, I concede that the Red Army raped between 1 million and 2 million woman in 1945 is factual, although you with your bitchy rhetoric have not helped.
Kayn:
"You say that you 'know' that the Soviet rapes in (Berlin? Germany?) were not systematic. How do you know this? What sources have specifically said that the rapes were NOT systematic? "
The sources that I specifically said, that you conveniently missed, in an earlier post is:
http://news.stanford.edu/pr/94/940328Arc4364.html
What were you trying to call me out or something? What are your sources that say it was ordered from the top down and was systematic?
"The Soviet rapes in Germany and in ethnic German territories WERE systematic. A multitude of international sources back this up."
K... Apparantly not according to Russian and Western historians.
The reason the abuses in Berlin were epidemic is because the "deep and complex desires for revenge" were widespread among the ranks. It did not occur because it was systematic. It was neither ordered nor condoned from the top. So why are you saying it was? Because you hate Russian people? You seem intent on critisizing that they can't prevent rapes, yet that is a quality that all armies have. Now I will tell you what you told me. Read up on how the Red Army was conducting itself and we won't be having this argument.
"Q: Why did the Soviets go berserk when they reached Berlin?
A: For simillar reasons that they went 'berserk' when they reached East Prussia, Silesia, Pommern, etc...simillar to why the Russian Army did the same in WW1 - because they could! "
Ha! Another evasion.
You can't seem to deliniate the difference between the Red Army's conduct in Berlin and other accounts of Red Army abuses.
And then when I say rape was a form of vengeance in Berlin, you point to other instances in Russian history that rape was used NOT as a form of vengeance. Well done there. That is really a classic non sequitor. What the hell do you mean?
What you are neglecting to awknowledge is that the rape of Berlin is of direct consequence of not only Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union but its openly genocidal policy in which the Soviet population went through an abyss of endless killings, transforming it into a radical culture with its soul purpose of crushing the enemy. And yet you expect them to act unlike they were treated. When a country is threatened and struck down, you can expect that its reactions will be oppressive. This is without a doubt. Germans realized it too.
You lack any sort of insight into this history, although you know a plethora of sources, they become meaningless when you have the logical skills of a 10 year old.
"So we can agree that the Russian people had good reason to be disgruntled, right? What reaction do you expect from a people who survived a genocide? Not rape? I don't think so."
"The germans are the reapers of what they sow."
Those are just two from your posts.
You say you're not an apologist, but isn't that what you're been trying to do with your justification of rape?
Sorry to cherry-pick through your posts, but I've read all of them on this string. Your points are that feelings of vengence justified Russian solders raping woman in Berlin, and the Germans had it coming to them. Plus the Germans exaggerate the number of victims according to you.
Why don't you just admit it, you don't like Germans and you have it in for them. You have no sympathy for the victims.
I suspect ulterior motives.
BTW, "abyss of endless killings"? Sounds like a cheap cliche copped from the History Channel.
Good luck researching history in the future. I hope you have a better understanding and acceptance of it than you do now.
Alright I'm going to be nice to you biodtl22, but I'm trying to stop doing that in debates because people usually take kindness as a weakness in the argument.
That's what I thought, that the Germans would exaggerate the number of victims when the Russians came in. It's just what I would've expected from what I've read but apparently that conclusion was false. I'm coming to terms to that now.
As for me downplaying German suffering, you're not even mentioning the suffering Soviet citizens went through which was simply proportionally much larger. Now...
Either you're just simply out of context, or you lack sympathy for the soviets. And you say I'm biased.
I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a platitude to you Biodtl22 with calling World War 2 for the Russians an "abyss of endless killings" but that is a metaphor for exactly what that was. The Wehrmacht made it a point to destroy "Modern Russia" and so they did destroy almost all of Russian infrastructure. You must take this in combination with the fact that a minimum of four times as many Russians had died then the apposing Germans. This might mean nothing to you but the number was an upwards of 20 million. Less then half of them military. If those conditions do not constitute an "abyss of endless killings" then what freaking does?
Its not that I can't sympathize with Germans. I do. But this is a case where they really brought it upon themselves with provocation. You examine the conduct of the armies in each country and you will see the reaction is proportional. Furthermore I do have trouble sympathizing with first world genocidists, more then I do with countries that are known to be 3rd world and have a history of unprovoked violence.
Now I know that the mass rape was unjustifiable, to you and to me, but how can you not see where this sentiment is coming from? If you really can't you must be living in a bubble where you don't understand how people react to adversity and cruelty. (They like to respond in kind.)
"Good luck researching history in the future. I hope you have a better understanding and acceptance of it than you do now." Thanks, dude. I actually just changed my major to history, although I'm not very good at it yet. We shall see.... Maybe I'll need that luck!
And PS: I really didn't want to be considered somebody like a denier of the Armenian genocide or someone who considers the holocaust to be a clever ruse. I was just acquainted with the German propaganda first, and the Soviet atrocities much later and the atrocities sounded like it came directly from Goebbels "The Russians will enslave us all all and turn our women into sex slaves!" So hopefully that will account for my initial disbelief.
I think in the wider context of events during the Second World War and the obvious fact that German women where equally as complicit as the men (viewing the majority of "non Arian/pure Germans," that they had either conquered or who were living in their own territories, as non-human) in the murder of MILLIONS - beyond the confines of combat - some might argue that the women got what they deserved and even got off lightly.
To coin a phrase from Monty Python (to deliberately lighten the mood ;)) I'm sure that many of the women in Auschwitz and all of the other Nazi camps would have viewed a bit of rape as a "luxury" compared to their fates.
Also, within this thread is the first time that I have ever heard someone be called a "racist" for stating proven facts about the conduct of German soldiers/people during the Second World War.
How times have changed...
Furthermore, it is often said that "history is written by the victors." I have always said, that the real truth is that "history is 'most often' written by the self righteous." Sadly, these days, things are even worse as history is increasingly REwritten by politcally correct liberals hell bent on homogenisation.
Also, according to concrete evidence in this thread, sounding (or rather, writing) "learned" does not, I'm afraid, equate as such.
Then it's just possible that the odd unexpected pregnancy was explained to a returning male relative as the result of rape, rather than a sex-food exchange.
shareH makes many claims that are just not substanitated. Among them that the Germam Armed Forces committed genocide against Eastern European gentiles. Many died in the conflict this is true. But Stalin killed more of his people than Hitler did.
Anyone want to take a wager that he is Jewish?
You should speak with people from Eastern Europe. There are still some who remember both armies and can tell about war-crimes. It seems that you didn't get true information.
shareHiverhythm, did you actually WATCH this film? If you did then you would know that at the end, before the credits, it says on the screen that the violent denunciation of this story by the German public prevented it from being re-published in 1959. The Germans thought that exposing the rape of their women would bring them shame. So the idea that they would not only broadcast information about the rapes in Berlin, but exaggerate them, is pure fantasy conjured in your redneck mind.
Anyway I gather from your other posts that you are either a Republican-sponsored troll or an idiot.
All the people who have posted here to defend the Red Army rapists seem to beleive women are mere objects that can be manipulated and abused to get back at their male 'owners'. Every one of these people needs to look at their respective country's human rights constitutions and accept that we are individual human beings before they comment further on atrocities like rape.
"by mkelly54 (Fri Mar 27 2009 07:18:51)
It is interesting that American military leaders condemn rape and prosecute rapists whenever the incidents are reported. But I really hope and pray it never happens again."
Oh you disgusting pro American piece of crap.
Do not try to glorify Americans by making it look like they are against the raping of women in Iraq and Afghanistan. Stop trying to make it look like Americans are heroes and protectors of the world because guess what - you aren't.
While it may be true that some soldiers have been prosecuted (which is a good thing) it doesn't change you are at war, the u.s. government sent these rapists and murderers to Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place.
Who should we glorify instead? Maybe the 95% or more first world countries that are not at war, and haven't been for decades. Fyi, since second world war, the u.s. has been at war every single decade.
[deleted]
Animals, all of them - Germans and Russians.
Though Russians are infinitely more disgusting, ever drunk, ever unclean, and corrupted. And they don't need a war, nor an economic/political crisis, to be and show what they are, deep in themselves.
And the arguments in this thread are utterly retarded. No matter what the germans did, whoever takes it as an excuse to commit crimes and inhumanities is infinitely more troubled and sadder human being than his enemy. Bottom line is, all parties in such war should have mutually exterminated themselves and free the world of their disgusting presence.
That's what Napoleon thought, but for some reason these drunk, unclean and corrupt Russians took Paris in 1814-15. Same thing with good ol' Adolf. In 1945 the drunk Russians stumbled into Berlin. OOPs I guess they just lost their way. Heck, not bad for drunken and unclean brutes, wouldn't you say? By the way one can be clean, uncorrupted and ever so sober and still be a disgusting human being. Anyway, I would restrain from using stereotypes and ever so predictable cliches. It's like saying all Germans are Nazis, or all Europeans (contemporary Europe) are Socialists, all Italians like pasta and meatbals and all Irish are drunkards. Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. Get a clue would you please.
sharehttp://www.world-war-2.info/statistics/
29 million Soviets were killed in WWII. 17 million of these were civilians.
Germany lost 5.7 million. Poland lost 6.3 million. Great Britain lost 495,000.
US lost 413,000. The Soviet Union lost 478,000 defending one city.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad
See also Enemy at the Gates http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0215750/
and Scorched Earth, aka War of the Century http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0433478/.
(An additional 10 million to 50 million Soviets were killed by Stalin's regime, depending on whose figures you believe.)
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin
(Above is presented for perspective. Let's not rehash German and Russian justifications for vengeance.)
Rape was not officially a war crime in many countries, including the US, until 1993, after some 20,000 to 50,000 women were raped and/or kept as sex slaves in Bosnia.
http://www.wrmea.com/component/content/article/150-1993-september-octo ber/7301-rape-is-a-war-crime.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_rape
http://www.pixelpress.org/bosnia/context/0628warcrimes-tribunal.html
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein
We think we have advanced as humans over the years. But the only real advances we have made are in technology. Humanitarian advances have been relatively small and few, and they have come only after great strife and long struggles for better laws.
The more we point fingers at others and cite faults as justification for vengeance, the more we prove our ignorance and prejudice, and the more likely we are to fight more wars. As we point, we point at ourselves.
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This thread makes my loses even more hope in humanity...
share