MovieChat Forums > Iron Sky (2012) Discussion > Anti-American movie full of pointless jo...

Anti-American movie full of pointless jokes

posted 12 years ago by msvista
342 replies | jump to latest

Could not appreciate any of the jokes. The whole movie is based on anti-Americanism.

Find it shocking that the majority of voters rated this 10/10.

[–] tb-balla 12 years ago

lol you idiot. This movie is a political satire, it's ingenius.

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

More like a feeble-minded attempt to take a side in the 2012 elections here in the US.

Iron Sky even manages to convey that African-Americans couldn't possibly be "real" astronauts, when Dr. Guion Bluford had logged 688 hours in Space Shuttles over five separate missions before retiring from NASA to serve as a senior officer in a space exploration company. Dr. Bluford alone has more hours in space than Finland, Germany and Australia.

We all know here in the United States that some other countries lag behind us in race relations, and the three which financed this turkey, Finland, Germany and Australia are among them.

Just because Australia isn't vaporizing Aborigines off the hills of Maralinga any more with nuclear detonations doesn't mean that the people who slandered America in their reviews aren't the worst hypocrites on Earth.

And given that Finnish aircraft wore the swastika on their livery in the 1940s, I can see why the director of the film has such warm fuzzies for Nazis and resents Americans so much.

[–] jjokinen62 11 years ago

I see that you clearly don't know the history of Finnish aircraft.
Perhaps you should also become more familiar the swastika symbol, too.

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

http://www.oocities.org/finnmilpge/fmp_faf_markings.html shows you're either a liar or just plain ignorant of the Finnish Air Force's history. I know the history of Finnish aircraft markings during the Second World War much better than you do.

[–] jjokinen62 11 years ago

maybe you should read your own post first:

"And given that Finnish aircraft wore the swastika on their livery in the 1940s, I can see why the director of the film has such warm fuzzies for Nazis and resents Americans so much."

and then study the link you gave if you didn't comprehend it at first glance.

and then tell me how these make me a liar ?

furthermore, claiming to know more about the finnish aircraft markings than me knowing nothing about me is just plain stupid.

[–] Karl Aksel 10 years ago

It was the marking of Finnish aircraft since 1917, when Finland gained its independence. It was their national symbol, years before the Nazi party was even founded. The Finnish swastika had nothing whatsoever to do with the nazi swastika.

As for your allegation that the movie belittles black people's potential as astronauts, that is another misunderstanding on your part. It was not a stab at black people, but just about the opposite: it was a stab at conservative racism in the US, where the conservative government used the protagonist as nothing more than a PR gimmick.

[–] nyshyguy84-726-251923 10 years ago

As a black man myself i disagree with ur bs excuse. The portrayal of a fellow brotha like that was pure and typical white *beep* racism through and through. And europe is the mother continent of all things racist and so anyone from europe is the last person on the planet to lecture people about racism.

[–] BaiNst 9 years ago

Like what? Like a person who can win a war, and ends up with a peace loving white woman? This is a movie that makes fun of racists, war-mongers, and egotism. If you think it is itself racist, please delineate your argument.

[–] RomeoKnight 9 years ago

No point trying to argue with self-righteous Americans. 90% of them even don't know where Finland is.

[–] Lechaise 9 years ago

The marking you refer to is lying horizontally and predates the association or the diagonal swastika with nazism, will you also accuse carlsberg beer and hindus as being nazis as they used swastikas at various points as well? You, sir, are a badly researched or informed man. Do your homework before making such statements.

[–] tainoarawak 8 years ago

Lmao @ you not even reading your own links, then mouthing off about things you know nothing about & actually believing you're intelligent. People like you are the reason other countries think Americans are idiots.

[–] sanmentolabs 11 years ago

Lol some of these morons think satire is a steel belted radial from Goodyear.
Many of them are just butthurt because their goose stepping idol Sarah Palin gets trashed in this film, but hey, she's an endless source of comedy.

[–] Othy59 12 years ago

Awwwww, does the wikkle American not like when other countries take the micky out of dem? Awww, let me back up the wambulance for you... :-)

"The BBC would like to apologize for the following announcement."

[–] IdleHand 11 years ago

This "wikkle American" thought it was funny as hell! ...in some ways, frighteningly accurate!

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

IdleHand: "This "wikkle American" thought it was funny as hell! ...in some ways, frighteningly accurate!"

Which parts did you find "frighteningly accurate"? Spaceships banking in complete vacuum, or the Gotterdammerung at the end of the movie over deposits of helium-3 that would require more energy to transport from the surface of the Moon than they'd give up as fuel for nuclear fusion?

It'd be amusing to watch people like you try to grapple with reality, but your take on it and that of people like you, unfortunately, has saddled us with the most ignorant and bigoted Presidency since Woodrow Wilson's - without the national mercy of a well-timed stroke.

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 11 years ago

has saddled us with the most ignorant and bigoted Presidency since Woodrow Wilson's

And how is the current any worse than the previous? All the crap we're suffering through now was made possible by the last prez.

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

Because Bush's DIRECT violations of the Constitution were few enough to count. We stopped counting Obama's violations of Americans' rights to political audit and taxation by its name, accountable to the People, in the second year of his administration, when the Dingbat of the House Nancy Pelosi told the American People with a perfectly straight face of the multi-volume "Affordable Care Act," "we have to pass it to find out what's in it... "

That's how it's different - repeated and flagrant media concealment of all the ways THIS president has exploited and violated our trust. At least under Bush, they were on the job, not GIVING blowjobs to Obama and hiding his lies for him.

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 11 years ago

Because Bush's DIRECT violations of the Constitution were few enough to count. We stopped counting Obama's violations of Americans' rights to political audit and taxation by its name, accountable to the People, in the second year of his administration, when the Dingbat of the House Nancy Pelosi told the American People with a perfectly straight face of the multi-volume "Affordable Care Act," "we have to pass it to find out what's in it... "

"Because Obama's DIRECT violations of the Constitution were few enough to count. We stopped counting Bush's violations of Americans' rights to not be blown away without trial, be accountable to the People and Congress, in the second year of his administration, when the Dingbat Congress passed the "Patriot Act", where we don't even have fair rights to trial."

That last bit sounds a lot like your Woodrow Wilson.

And how does what Nancy Pelosi or any other idiot politician said have anything to do with whether Obama violated the constitution?

That's how it's different - repeated and flagrant media concealment of all the ways THIS president has exploited and violated our trust.

Now you are throwing in "media concealment". That's the "media" failing, not Obama.

At least under Bush, they were on the job, not GIVING blowjobs to Obama and hiding his lies for him.

"At least under obama, they were on the job, not GIVING blowjobs to Bush and hiding his lies for him."

Bush opened all this sh!t up. Obama just picked it up and ran with it.

Rah rah for your team. The health and welfare of the country be damned.

[–] smoore-39 9 years ago

This film is a comedy, you idiot.

[–] nyshyguy84-726-251923 10 years ago

Seeing how Palin is not president how is it accurate?

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

When the widdle Russians shoot your menfolk and rape your women in the next World War... who ARE you going to call? You don't like us a whole lot.

My family and I will just curl up around the telly and eat popcorn while CNN tells us the story.

[–] Othy59 11 years ago

Seriously? You're still chomping on that bit? You and Russia are seriously as bad as each other.

"The BBC would like to apologize for the following announcement."

[–] nyshyguy84-726-251923 10 years ago

Well seeing how russia is the one on europes door step pointing its nuclear weapon systems at ur welfare empire, how exactly does it make the US just like it smart one?

[–] salman_ahmed2 10 years ago

the way american army soldiers have behaved in the recent invasions of iraq and afghanistan .i would much prefer russian soldiers than usa ones.

[–] nephihaha 10 years ago

"the way american army soldiers have behaved in the recent invasions of iraq and afghanistan .i would much prefer russian soldiers than usa ones. "

The way that they behaved in Chechnya, Georgia and Afghanistan, eh?

---
It's not "sci-fi", it's SF!

[–] vfrickey 10 years ago

Nostalgic for all those children's toys made of plastic explosive, are you?

[–] ethermusic1981 10 years ago

Close-minded Republican jack-asses use IMDb too I see...

[–] nyshyguy84-726-251923 10 years ago

yeah clearly u weren't around during the russian occupation of afghanistan which is why afghanistan became the third world hell hole that it was before american even got involved.

[–] nyshyguy84-726-251923 10 years ago

Oh please ic u white europeans get butt hurt every time someone speaks the truth about ur beloved welfare empire that is the EU. So stop talking like only americans bitch about this.

[–] vesku-koivunen 10 years ago

Only butt hurt ones I can see on this debate, are americans. It's really weird you know. The self confidence of US citizens is huge, still everyone loses their s**t, when someone does a satire about them. Should I as a Finn, be yelling around internet, that all americans are racist, because in King Ralph there appears the King of Finland? Hollywood boosts inaccurate stereotypes of europeans all the time, but somehow that is ok, criticizing US is not.

[–] nyshyguy84-726-251923 8 years ago

Cept i ain't american so that destroys your whole argument.

[–] nachash91 12 years ago

watch the movies! movies don't lie!

[–] author_53 12 years ago

haha. You want pro-American? Watch fox news. Being anti-American is like being anti-Nazi...a sane person's response to world events. Peace.

[–] miruleyall 12 years ago

lol orthy

Insert @V@T@R

[–] Galroot 12 years ago

author 53, I'm not from America but am grateful to the US. Fine, I get it, nobody likes the police. America has endless flaws , they do, but they are also responsible for the (relative) peace on earth. I'm saying relative because you can't stop everything but at least they are moving a finger.
So what if sometime they get something out of it.. who cares. They are human like the rest of us. Difference is that they actually do some good here unlike , for example, the pointless idiotic UN.
I, Gal from the middle east, am grateful for (and to) the USA.

Peace out.

[–] holtor 12 years ago

Oh come on, "from the middle east".From what you write it is obvious that you are from Israel, which is as close as possible to being a 59. US state.

[–] djfelix1975 12 years ago

There are 50 states. Adding Israel as one of them would make 51, not 59.

Wherever you are, you need more basic math schooling.

You're welcome.

-Hi. I don't care. Thanks.-
-the moon rulz #1-

[–] holtor 12 years ago

Whom should I believe, you or your president?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws

[–] Daemian_Lucifer 12 years ago

In that case israel should be 61st state,since he said he visited 57 with one more two go,and he wasnt allowed in 2.Unless you count those 2 as not part of the usa because they dont want their president there.

Souls?!Don't be ridiculous.It's their life forces that've been stolen.It's scientific!

[–] Laguna1284 12 years ago

You really need to tone down the racist leanings, holtor. Also, he misspoke. He was visiting the 48 non-satellite states (everyone besides Alaska and Hawaii). With one state left to go, he was on his 47th state. Hence, being either road weary or just a slip of the tongue, he unwittingly said 57 instead of 47. Not that big of a deal. to err is human and all that.

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

Oh, NO. Dan Quayle misspelled "potato" and the Democratic Party went nuts for the next four years ribbing us. holtor isn't being a racist to remind the world that we elected the least-qualified American President TWICE. That's more like a joke directed at the intelligence of just over half of the electorate (we think).

[–] djfelix1975 11 years ago

In answer to your question, you should believe me.

Duh.

-Hi. I don't care. Thanks.-
-the moon rulz #1-

[–] mkivtt 11 years ago

He's not our president. He's a socialist, Marxist piece of crap whose goal it is to reduce the great US to the same morally and financially bankrupt welfare state as can be found anywhere in Europe. He's elected by racists and people who want "free" stuff from the government, not real Americans.

[–] jymn-365-224576 11 years ago

Socialist? He's the most right-leaning Dem ever. He's doing nothing for the left and bending over for fools like Boehner.

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

A guy who hangs a glass ornament of Mao Zedung on the White House Holiday Tree to honor the 20th century's worst mass murderer (between 49,000,000 and 79,000,000 civilians in the "Great Leap Forward" alone) has to qualify as a socialist.

[–] Halbermensch999 10 years ago

Hhahahahhahahha.

You folks never try to factcheck.

[–] NorrinRad (5007) 5 years ago

Those were the days that Made America Was Great Again!

[–] cesvasquez 11 years ago

Where do you leave Puerto Rico?
If you want to consider Israel You have to take into account Puerto Rico also.

That'll be 52 states.

You're welcome!!

I loved this movie!!!

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

He's starting from President Obama's campaign estimate of "57 states." I know, he STILL didn't add it up right. Not my problem....

[–] tainoarawak 8 years ago

Kentucky, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Virginia are commonwealths, so technically there are actually 46 states. However, legally they are indistinguishable from states, so they're just called states in America, hence the 50.
Just a bit of fun trivia to play with, you can catch people out there with it in conversation & have fun watching them look confused when you tell them there's 46 states, lol.

[–] mkivtt 11 years ago

Hahahaha. 59 states, eh?

Self-defeatism at its pathetic best.

It's really amusing to see all the America bashers crawl out from underneath their rocks to add their two cents. Two cents, I might add, you probably received from the US in the form of foreign aid, protection by NATO (paid for by the US), some grant from the UN (again, paid for by the US) or free markets and capitalism (gee, again from the US).

I understand though. When you're a nobody from a third world hellhole, you have nothing better to do than attack those better than you. Nothing but envy and jealousy.

[–] z_dude_here 10 years ago

Capitalism has existed since the Middle Ages. I have no idea how you came to the erroneous conclusion that the United States invented capitalism. It's widely understood by historians that the Netherlands had the first full-time stock exchange, too. It is also widely understood America's the most indebted country in the world and owes about 1.2 Trillion dollars to China. It owes about the same to Japan. The United States even owes Russia money.

So yeah, in conclusion... ha ha!

[–] schlaflosig 12 years ago

I second that. I'm from Russia and I'm grateful to the US for all they did. Especially to President Reagan for helping a lot to end the USSR. Thanks to that, I'm a free man now.

[–] dino-141 9 years ago

That was Gorbachew.
Reagan is the guy who liberated bank laws and caused the real estate bubble that is the main reason of the crisis the whole world is suffering and bleeding and paying for now.

[–] schlaflosig 9 years ago

Yeah, Gorbachev too, but his hand was also forced by Reagan's policies and low oil prices.

= Reagan ... caused the real estate bubble =
You're kidding, right? :)

[–] fatpie42 12 years ago

Like when they won World War II, eh?

;)

[–] mrxavia 11 years ago

I always have to stifle a laugh when I hear americans say that...

[–] Timmw-s 12 years ago

Hahaha, America, bringer of peace? you must be joking! America has started the most wars out of any country in modern history.

[–] dino-141 9 years ago

You just don't understand.
Part of bringing peace to the world is dropping dirty bombs on masses of children in Iraq and Afghanistan, installing puppet governments and exploiting ressources.
That's what real peace and democracy is about!
Who cares about the 1,2 Million Christians that had to flee from Iraq since the invasion?

[–] Kockunge 11 years ago

wow! AT LEAST THEY LIFT A FINGER!! Way to insult the rest of the world. And they WHO? the politicians??? Im sorry but I hear this bs all the time. They basically STARTED most wars in the world since WW2 (along with for example the British government)- even not always in such an "active" way only. But in ways of totally RAPING the south american continent. installing DROVES of dictators in power. And do you know what the Israeli gov are doin against the palestinians??? USA are like the ONLY country in the west that still backs israel in this.

Of course theyre not alone. But read a book sometimes. Naomi Kleins Chock Doctrine for ex. Chris Hedges -War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning (himself an american). Read up on Pinochets Chile, or how they originally armed al qaida etc...(i guess u think that Charlie Wilsons War is a documentary). this is not ordinary american citizens fault of course, and lots of them are being duped by their leaders aswell....and the ones that arent, what can they do about it right know?? Obama is a waring president, for resources and strategic military purposes, positions of power. Like all the others icluding JFK and Clinton who is responable for bombing dosens of civilian hospitals etc etc. Althou I think Obama is a bit better then Romney -but thats not saying much. Seriously.

Being Anti-american btw mostly means against their foreign policy and some insane powerstructures within the country. Do you even know that american political policy was to totally back up Mubarak just until it was obvious that the public opinion against the regime was overwhelming? this isnt BY FAR unique! Do u even know who he is??? The US alone have been, without the shadow of a doubt, the strongest invading war-mongering force since the Sovjet union collapsed. Neo-Liberalism uber alles! They only attack countries that dont obey.

The word "anti-american" is something that (some) conservative americans spread in a "fascist" fashion. And it shows how deeply screwed those peoples world view is! Something like God and Country before human beings. People outside the US that think of themselves like patriots in this way , are OFTEN nationalist extremists that NEED that kind of external signifier for their selfimage. But there its normalised by (for ex) the political classes. but, america isnt alone in this like I said. And wars are about money/power -which is global. But to american governments THEIR wars are ALWAYS defensive! The intricacy of this mindset is classic sect-thinking. Delusional, immune to real critic despite evidence (others are idiots/traitors/"satan"...). Manufacturing Consent. And before u think this....this is not conspiracy-theory. The world is a social biotope. Cause and effect which builds up complex structures over time that favours powerful people with powerful resources. Greed is a result of structures. Ways of thinking is handed down thru generations. fear, money and religion are powerful motivators. And the US are at the top of this scale in relation to their offensive military force in starting conflicts. To big to fail. Absolute power corrupts. Absolutly.

But I guess someone like you dont take in alternate telling of history very well. U would make me sick if I didnt think u were just ignorant. And "you guys" always tend to start out by saying, "Yes theyre not perfect" like it really obsolves anything. Textbook arguments. There is a difference between ideology, facts and just being misinformed. And the world is changed from the ground UP, like the civil rights movements and other great american activism for example.

Although i doubt you accept anything i or anyone else says about this, because uve already made up your mind havent you - and every one else is lying? Or am i wrong. Dont think so. Im just smarter than you ;) I dont know why I bother, but that comment on lifting a finger just sent me over the edge.

OO XX!!! :)

[–] bugaluu1 11 years ago

This is a good read, cheers!

[–] bobgkhan 11 years ago

Hi friend. Sorry to say we are not going to be able to do it for much longer, we can no longer afford it. Someone else is going to have to rise to the challenge of trying to keep peace on Earth within the next decade or two.

I just hope our fall from being a superpower does not kill our Constitution, hopefully we can settle down, much like the Britts and Japanese have done.

[–] dino-141 9 years ago

The Brits haven't settled down.
It is a worn down country with a broken economy that merely lives from the perverted money games in the City of London and helping the U.S. expoit Afghanistan and Iraq.
Take that from them and they are finished.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] mrxavia 11 years ago

Grateful to the US?

FFS, what do we you have to be grateful for?
Responsible for the relative peace? what world are you living in?

I see the USA as responsible for much of the unrest we have in the world today...

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

I AM an American and I freely acknowledge we have endless flaws. The only thing I object to was a previous poster's equation of my country with Nazi Germany, which seems to have driven the producer and scriptwriter(s) of Iron Sky, and most of the people who liked this film and took the opportunity in their reviews to slander my country.

They're entitled to their opinion. I'm entitled to call their views a fetid load of dingo's kldneys, and to spit on them, their views, and the movie they masturbate to at every opportunity.

I don't think past good acts are excuse for present crimes. But I draw the attention to each and every citizen of the Free World who hates my country and its citizens to the taxes we pay to keep Vladimir Putin out of Western Europe (he's already invaded Georgia) and China out of Australia. We're not making a dime on the endeavor as a nation, I can assure you. It costs us billions.

So you America-haters can go straight to Hell. If we become the powerless shadow of the height of our power you wish we would, you'll be in a position close enough to Hell for the difference not to matter. Now you can return to your Orwellian fifty-year Hate of America. You're pathetic slime.

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 11 years ago

Dude, you are nursing some serious butt-hurt.

And you can't blame anybody but ourselves for uselessly (destructively) spending billions (trillions) of dollars.

[–] Halbermensch999 11 years ago

Fox news is biased garbage.

[–] mkivtt 11 years ago

Says the pathetic German who's probably never watched Fox in his life. Keep repeating what your socialist masters indoctrinate you.... that's a good useful idiot.

[–] Halbermensch999 11 years ago

First, I'm not a German (lesson here: don't assume). Second, we don't have masters, third Fox news is lying to you constantly. In fact they consider most of their viewers to be less than bright, it's all dumbed down for the masses.
Lastly, there are polls which show that people who do not watch news are better informed than Fox news watchers.

Might as well add another thing. Not even the stupid baggers are against SS and medicare according to polls. So you're all socialists to one degree or another. But you often lack the self-awareness and the knowledge to even know this.

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

Yeah. Just wait till you find out President Hope N' Change spent all the defense money buying votes. So sorry, no more pulling your chestnuts out of the fire.

We'll be fascinated to see how you guys do against the FIVE new amphibious assault boats Putin just ordered. Alone.

[–] Halbermensch999 10 years ago

Spent the defense money? Fact: The defense budget has gone up.

[–] nyshyguy84-726-251923 10 years ago

That why Obama is more popular in the third world then any mighty whitey european leader right now?

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] dino-141 9 years ago

I don't know who you have talked to, but in the country of his origin everybody is more than disappointed.
Africans dream of going to Europe, no the U.S.

Now think about it.

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

"No one likes us-I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
Africa is far too hot
And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us

We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin', too

Boom goes London and boom Paris
More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh, how peaceful it will be
We'll set everybody free
You'll wear a Japanese kimono babe
And there'll be Italian shoes for me

They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now
Let's drop the big one now"

"Political Science," by Randy Newman

[–] nightbiker-1 12 years ago

Dude, really? Is your sense of national pride so weak that you get offended at an anti-American movie?
Granted, its not really MY bag, but I wouldn't go out of my way to badmouth a movie just because it was anti-American. In fact, its not something I'd even bother to bring up in the first place.
But being anti-American, it should play real well to the liberal crowd -IOW anyone who gets their "news" from CNN or the usual three alphabet networks.
So what?
I have not seen it, and won't offer any pointless claims on how good or bad it is (being as I haven't seen it) -I love Science-Fiction, but the very premise of this is just a bit too hokey for my tastes. I do enjoy reading genuine reviews, though. I may go ahead and nab it for one of those times when I have nothing better to do, and nothing to watch. Once in a while, I even stumble upon a surprisingly good movie this way.

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

Let's see what other reasons there are to take a standing leak on this POS...

...the racist portrayal of African-Americans (yeah, 330,000,000 Americans to choose from and according to the director/scriptwriter of Iron Sky, the only way we could put am African-American up there is to hire an actor... if the director had pulled his head out of his coal-scuttle helmet, he'd have known that African-Americans are a part of our space program, with Dr. Guion Bluford putting in 688 hours over five separate Space Shuttle missions)
...spaceships making banking turns in vacuum
...four-year outdated portrayal of American politics
...oh, so romantic portrayal of ze nice Nazi second-in-kommand and ze schoolmarm
...misogynistic portrayal of women in American politics

I could go on, but my point would be lost on you. The Left gets to both criticize everyone else for being socially insensitive and to BE socially insensitive themselves.

Come to think about it, I'm going to link the review of Iron Sky to every Member of Congress. Time they knew what you guys think of us before we take up any MORE of the cost of defending Australia from China and Europe from Russia.

[–] z_dude_here 10 years ago

What are you smoking? Australia are allies with the US and China.

[–] linop90 10 years ago

Man you are pathetic.

White americans ARE EUROPEAN.
No amount of plastic in your fake puke worthy patriotism.
Or marching to English drinking song can change that.

See the world, No wonder so many call amerians xenophobic insular twats.

Eat the Neocons.

[–] dino-141 9 years ago

Taling about spaceships, very successful lately, aren't you?
That U.S. astronauts have to be taxied by the Russians to the I.S.S. hurts, doesn't it?

[–] hearinghealer 12 years ago

I can't decide what's more sad. A guy with a mild case of Xenophobia unable to watch a film that belittles his country or the barrage of anti-american dross in reply (mostly equally xenophobic ironically)!

Countries ARE NOT people. They are full of various individuals with various cultures and opinions and even, in some cases, skin colours! Stop treating them as one entity people. It's adolecsent for goodness sake.

[–] nightbiker-1 12 years ago

most of the ones who fervently hate America sing a different tune when disaster strikes, or they get their 'foreign aid' money cut off.

[–] netgrazer 12 years ago

News flash: next time disaster strikes, it may well be on US soil. It's a good thing your army has become quite proficient at urban warfare, so no worries...

I won't be applauding when it happens, because I'm not a misanthropist, but like pretty much the rest of the world I will not be in a hurry to help out, either. Now why would that be? Could it be that there is more to reality that the US patriots' version of the truth?

Can monkeys surf the net, and corrupt our kids?
Chimpanzee chatrooms, next on Sick, Sad World.

[–] nightbiker-1 12 years ago

Whatever dude. FAR more often than not, its the US helping, not requiring help.
Get over it.

[–] netgrazer 12 years ago

And it's precisely because of their way of "helping" other countries that they're not likely to receive much aid themselves, if they ever need it.

Just a heads-up... it's not too late to turn Canadian!

Can monkeys surf the net, and corrupt our kids?
Chimpanzee chatrooms, next on Sick, Sad World.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] netgrazer 12 years ago

I don't think Mexico wants your kind, Trolly McTrollington. They have their hands full with drug cartels that eat racist yankee loudmouths like you for breakfast.

Besides, I'm not canadian. I just named 1 of 2 countries bordering yours, and you just assumed that mentioning Canada as a better alternative must mean that I live in Canada. But I'm not a chauvinist idiot.

Can monkeys surf the net, and corrupt our kids?
Chimpanzee chatrooms, next on Sick, Sad World.

[–] dileas 12 years ago

From one Canadian to another: you're a moron, and you make us all look bad. The yanks look like friggin' geniuses in comparison to you.

[–] netgrazer 12 years ago

I'm not canadian. Learn to read and stop making assumptions.
And there's no reason to imply that ALL yanks are stupid, either.

Not that I really care, but if you have an actual reason to say what you said, you might as well post it here. And stop making the canadians look bad, with your unsubstantiated "you're a moron" remarks.

Can monkeys surf the net, and corrupt our kids?
Chimpanzee chatrooms, next on Sick, Sad World.

[–] xvi-2 12 years ago

That's not, in fact, true. The US gives proportionately very little in foreign aid compared to other relatively wealthy countries (until a few years ago, even Ireland gave proportionately more foreign charity than the US). On top of that, roughly 90% of what is legally termed as 'aid' by the US is direct business investment in US interests in the recipient country. With most other countries that percentage stands at around 10% to 20% (a generally considered obnoxious 70% for Italy). I respectfully invite you to pull your thumb out and check that for yourself. Figures may be a few years out but not by more than ten.

Then there's the double standards as seen in Egypt when we had to listen to Hilary Clinton banging on about supporting the revolution of the free Egyptian people against the 'tyrant' Mubarrak, when all through his reign Egypt was the largest recipient of US foreign 'aid' after Israel. Everyone seems to be aware of that except citizens of the US.

And all - ALL - US aid comes with a very, very hefty price tag that makes damned sure the recipient country stays snugly in the US treasury's pocket for the foreseeable future.

All this is - well, that second part anyway - common knowledge. The only surprising thing is that foreigners have to keep telling you about it, and rather than checking, or - God forbid - even uttering a sheepish, 'Oh, how embarrassing', you all just simply go, *beep* you - we're No. 1'.

Try looking up Salvador Allende for starters. You want a link? Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende#US_involvement

That you lot in the US still nonchalantly demand to be spoon fed links for all this stuff is, frankly, staggering. I think what most people actually dislike about people from the US isn't actually their lack of awareness, which is kind of forgivable, considering. It's the flat, knee-jerk denial.

[–] dileas 12 years ago

That's pretty funny. Did you know that 97.234% of statistics were made up on the spot?

[–] shrugs 12 years ago

Are they though?

What if a squirrel wants a sausage?

[–] Daemian_Lucifer 12 years ago

Of course.93.648% researches have reached the same conclusion.

Souls?!Don't be ridiculous.It's their life forces that've been stolen.It's scientific!

[–] Kockunge 11 years ago

....like yours? ;)

[–] schlaflosig 12 years ago

What's with Salvador Allende? You're unhappy that US didn't let Chile become yet another left totalitarian Cuba? How inconsiderate of them.

Well, you now have Venezuela instead. Sit back and enjoy the view of the country sinking into the socialist antiutopia (the process is very well described by Ayn Rand).

[–] Halbermensch999 10 years ago

Ayn Rand, the fraud who herself took government aid when she needed it? Or the very same moron who said that women are not president-material?

Chile is a perfect example on how USA ignores people's right to choose, as is Iran 1953. Now you can continue to complain about "totalitarianism" while you (probably) will not say or even think anything about US support for actual dictatorships like Saudiarabia. They're fine of course, because they are business-partners. Fine despite leaks showing them to supporting AQ. But who cares. Keeps the MIC war machinery running doesn't it?

[–] Wheeljak 12 years ago

Proportionately, huh?
Well, tell me: would you rather have 100% of a supermarket cashier's money, or 1% of the General Motors CEO's money?

[–] holtor 12 years ago

You appear to be very much mistaken about the US' wealth. Japan alone gave more or less as much foreign aid as the entire US in 2003-2004. You are only confirming what xvi-2 describes as most americans attitude: "*beep* you - we're No. 1'."

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 12 years ago

You are only confirming what xvi-2 describes as most americans attitude: "*beep* you - we're No. 1'."

Nice that you feel free to tag 150+ million people in a country of extremely diverse viewpoints based on a couple of comments in a movie discussion thread.

[–] Wheeljak 12 years ago

It's odd to me that you feel the need to reach 9 years into the past to get your numbers, even though they're published every year. Please explain yourself.

[–] holtor 12 years ago

That just happened to be a year where I found really reliable data. Because, as xvi-2 pointed out, foreign aid is not always generous. In that year a lot of aid went to countries bordering the indian ocean, and most came without too many strings attached. And one should not choose a year where the US or Japan suffered from a catastrophic event themselves.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

Not in a hurry to help out? No problem as you never have helped in the past anyway.

[–] leostasi 12 years ago

I think it was an anti bush movie, excellent

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

And when the Chinese decide that they can spare 100 million people to take your island continent from you... tootle-oo. You're self-reliant, aren't you, mate?

[–] NapalmV888 12 years ago

It's not only the third world countries who hate Americans!!

[–] argento100 12 years ago

I dont consider myself form a third world, is not fair call Argentina like that, for example, cause my country have healthcare (free, universal, an high tech with many excellent docs), universitys, high tech corporations, space tech, nuclear tech, etc. We are not Bangladesh or Namibia.
So i dont like it, and i dont like it when Us people call itself americans, i know it came form colony times when they where birtish americans, but they now apropiated the name that Americus Vespucius gave to the entire continent to only one country. America IS NOT US, United States OF America, IN. Im american, and im not from US. I think is a problem with your school system wich teachs you that, in France, Germany, Italy, Spain or Argentina, Brasil, etc, America is a big continent, divided in thre sub-continents, north, central and south. But when i say it to a yankee it says thats wrong, you are southamerican, not american, we are the only americans in the world..., Im american, im southamerican, im argentinian.

[–] dino-141 9 years ago

The same person probably tells a Mexican that he is South American ...

Tell him, he is not American but North American. Just like his fellow Mexican.
And then run ...

[–] aim4 12 years ago

...and I suppose all these people from other countries are just jealous of the USA? Sigh, just...sigh.

[–] dennis_vdboorn 12 years ago

its funny how many americans still think they bring so much good to the rest of the world. I think the small help the US has provided with natural disasters and "foreign aid" is completely offset by the problems the US has caused.

Also dont think the US is so benovelent with there aid money. When the tsunami hit asia. The netherlands a small country with only 16million people raised more money as aid (privately) then the 400+ million people + goverment of the US together.

[–] chickdr-1 12 years ago

I should hope people from their OWN COUNTRY would raise more than the US would. Why should we be the ones to rebuild the country when we had nothing to do with its destruction?

[–] netgrazer 12 years ago

First destroying a country and then "helping" to rebuild it sounds more like the US modus operandi, agreed.

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[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

Fine. Next time, screw the "going in at all" part. We'll just take care of our own business and throw our politicians in jail as needed.

[–] dino-141 9 years ago

If you just would, if you just would.

[–] aim4 12 years ago

I think you entirely missed the point. The Netherlands is as much a disinterested 3rd party as the USA (the tsunami did not hit the western coast of Europe ;-), is more than 10 times smaller, yet raised the same amount of $$$.

[–] dino-141 9 years ago

No, they didn't.
They raised €€€, which as we all know is worth a lot more than $$$.
And it scares the crap out of the US gov.
Saddam wanted to switch from Petro Dollar to Petro Euro. So he had to go.
If all oil exporting countries did that, the U.S. would be a third world country in a minute.
They have only one means to stop that - their military.
Now reconsider all U.S. military campaigns of the last 15 years.

[–] lancer165 12 years ago

chickdr-1

IF that was a response to the

dennis_vdboorn

regarding aid to the Tsunami then it proves 'Houston' and US citizens Geographical knowledge might just have a problem.

If not then do accept a genuine apology.

I believe in general that many national pledges since that disaster and the ongoing African needs have fallen very short. As we say in the UK 'all mouth and no trousers'.

[–] tushania 12 years ago

re: tsunami in ASIA

This is nice. Please check where Netherlands are, and where Asia is. Netherlands is a country in Northern Europe and Asia is a continent that is not Europe. The point was that Netherlands - a 16mil country that had nothing to do with the tsunami - raised more than USA.

[–] dmanuel-299-470934 12 years ago

Also dont think the US is so benovelent with there aid money. When the tsunami hit asia. The netherlands a small country with only 16million people raised more money as aid (privately) then the 400+ million people + goverment of the US together.

You are completely right. Let's take a look at some of those numbers.

Country........Government.....NGO's & Public......Total
USA.............$950 Mil..........$1,875 Mil............$2,825 Mil
Netherlands...$300.5 Mil.......$208.5 Mil............$509 Mil

Your stats are close, but not quite right. That is excluding donations from US Corporations, and all amounts are in USD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_response_to_the_2004_Indian_ Ocean_earthquake#List_of_donors

Total foreign aid in 2003-2004 has the USA as the leading donor at 12.9 billion dollars. They are followed by Japan at 9.2 and Germany pulls up the third spot at 5.4 billion.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-doners-of-forei gner-aid-map.html

[–] holtor 12 years ago

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_response_to_the_2004_Indian_ Ocean_earthquake#List_of_donors

While the absolute numbers are not as dennis_vdboorn remembered, the relative numbers are indeed not in favor of the US (per capita, per GNP etc.). When you check out the last column (per GNP) at your link, than the US does not look so good in comparison to the Netherlands (and many other countries on that list). Similarly to this list here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governments_by_development_aid

>USA.............$950 Mil..........$1,875 Mil............$2,825 Mil
>Netherlands...$300.5 Mil.......$208.5 Mil............$509 Mil

Thus per capita, the dutch people gave 3x more money than americans.

>Total foreign aid in 2003-2004 has the USA as the leading donor at 12.9 billion dollars. They are followed by Japan at 9.2 and Germany pulls up the third spot at 5.4 billion.
>http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-doners-of-forei gner-aid-map.html

And thus on average, US citizens gave $43 each, Japanese $71 and Germans $66. The dutch people according to that chart gave $200 each on average.

[–] dmanuel-299-470934 12 years ago

Yes, I saw that but the way that people raise money in the US is based on people only donating low amounts. Small amounts in large groups still raises large amounts. Is everyone chipping in just a small amount better or worse? Is good and aide still being provided? Yes, and it is still substantially more than anyone else. Could the US do more as a whole? Absolutely, but then again we all could do substantially more.

You are willing to simply brush aside Mr. dennis's fault, yet it is that same ignorance that many condemn in the US citizens. That seems not only unfair, but willfully one sided.

[–] Radalan 12 years ago

In recent history what are those countries that have fervently hated America, have had a disaster struck and have required foreign aid from America?

What clichés? Thats a word the wannabe critics use when they want to whinge.

[–] MirrorofReflection 12 years ago

Hurricane Katrina. your own government (I'm assuming you're American) took forever to help it's people, and even then, countries like Canada helped more than your own gov.

[–] Manos723 12 years ago

So you're saying that Canada provided more than 10.5 billion dollars in aid? Really?

[–] mkivtt 11 years ago

Exactly. NATO is paid for by the US, the UN is paid for by the US, half the countries are protected from totalitarian states and petty dictators by US bases and fleets. Our capitalism has lifted billions out of poverty. They use our technology, our medicine, wear our clothing, watch our TV shows and movies, drive our cars, use our computers and software, and so forth. When disasters strike, the US is the first to come and help. Heck, even without disasters, we give billions in foreign aid EACH YEAR to practically every country out there.

Without the US, their life would be hell, ruled by some petty dictaror; they would be eking out a meager existence with none of the freedoms and luxuries they enjoy now. Yet somehow the US is "evil." Pathetic ingrates.

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 11 years ago

Dude, you've got to chill out. When people have a certain view of you that you don't think is fair, you shouldn't go on apoplectic rants that just confirms what they think. And why rail at Europeans when half of America says the same type of things about this country? Hell, 100% of this country say this country is stupid. Just everybody has different reasons for saying so.

Exactly. NATO is paid for by the US, the UN is paid for by the US, half the countries are protected from totalitarian states and petty dictators by US bases and fleets. Our capitalism has lifted billions out of poverty. They use our technology, our medicine, wear our clothing, watch our TV shows and movies, drive our cars, use our computers and software, and so forth. When disasters strike, the US is the first to come and help. Heck, even without disasters, we give billions in foreign aid EACH YEAR to practically every country out there.

This is the arrogant shiat that sounds just as bad as the "derp, U.S. stupid" crowd. Do you really think we don't act in our own self interests? We may do it stupidly (see, I'm part of the 100%), but we don't do these things without self-interest in mind - and never have.

And if it bothers you that much you should work on getting it to stop.

Without the US, their life would be hell, ruled by some petty dictaror; they would be eking out a meager existence with none of the freedoms and luxuries they enjoy now. Yet somehow the US is "evil." Pathetic ingrates.

See, this is just as idiotic as the "US is evil" line.

You shouldn't respond to moronic talk with more moronic talk.

[–] moodie_geo 10 years ago

Actually US is famous for not paying the UN contribution and it has been said about NATO as well.

This board is ridiculous, take a chill pill and enjoy movies.

Want to talk politics go into friggin politics instead of bashing on forum boards.

Geez pathetic.

Btw you're kind of an idiot if you think the US rules the world. Look at all the lost/ neverending wars, 9/11 etc. Sure you contribute but don't overstate your self importance. It makes you kind of look like a dummy.

And no you don't give foreign aid to each country, another littlebit of dummy talk.

When you look at the contributions compared with population. Usually the US comes lower than other countries. Europeans are much better at raising funds for disasters etc as well as in sending teams for search and rescue, identifying bodies etc. Which mostly is purely based on people volunteering, employers understanding and allowing.

[–] phantomlovesamy 11 years ago

Considering loads of them are Northern European, Canadian or Australian,they can say whatever they want.

[–] aim4 12 years ago

Look at it from an outsider's perspective for a second though; how is the rest of the world supposed to feel when you couldn't find a US presidential candidate for the last hundred years who doesn't support the idea of American Exceptionalism? Or the Monroe Doctrine? Or Manifest Destiny? Any other country which has espoused such blatantly warlike and aggressive policies (e.g. Lebensraum) have been, rightly, condemned by history. How do you think the USA should be viewed after causing 2 million+ deaths in S.E. Asia, tens of thousands murdered and tortured in Central and South America, Iraq, etc., all without a single apology? These are established facts, not a mere matter of opinion. No one is denying there are good, decent people living in the USA, many millions of them, but when a country commits acts of great evil over and over again with the attitude that it is "OK" when America does it but wrong for the rest of the world, and most of its citizens do nothing at all to try to put a stop to it...how would you judge that country? It is probably hard to see your own country in that light inside the echo chamber of American media and politics, but something well worth pondering I think...

[–] cblack87 12 years ago

Links to support your claims please...

Thousands murdered and tortured in central and south America? Links to claims...or it didn't happen.

[–] aim4 12 years ago

Ummmm, lol, Chile, Argentina, Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador maybe? Using google isn't really rocket-surgery :-).

Chile is a good starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._intervention_in_Chile#1973_coup

You could add Suharto and Mobutu to the list as well. And nice dodge on the millions of innocent people the USA killed in SE Asia, not worth commenting on?

[–] bkbirge 12 years ago

Ridiculous. Supporting a despotic regime is not the same as killing people. Is the US culpable in many of those actions? Possibly to some extent, particularly with the School of the Americas where current Cartel members (former military) were trained and several other ill-conceived ideas of meddling in other country's affairs (which I'll remind you many other countries are guilty of as well). Are they guilty of your outrageous claims of millions dead? Look a little closer to home for that, particularly at the despots that ran the countries.

From your own supplied link:
"Therefore, while the CIA did consider it, ultimately the U.S. did not participate in any tangible way in the 1973 coup. There has not been any evidence to the contrary in the last 30 years."

I know it's fun to condense complicated geo-political cause and effect into a simple blame game against a single target, but it doesn't reflect reality. If you want to argue the US has not always had the best interests of others in mind when involving themselves and/or good intentions have not turned into good reality, you may have a point worth talking about. But using numbers that are clearly not in context to convince others that your a-priori prejudices are fact will not win arguments.

[–] latterligadresse-189-24251 12 years ago

The movie made fun of everybody, if you find it anti-american, you probably suffer from subconcious guilt.

[–] aim4 12 years ago

Outrageous? Two million Vietnamese, Laotian and Cambodian civilians died. Look it up!!

As to the CIA's involvement in overthrowing Allende and Kissinger's culpability, read Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine.

And, yes, installing and propping up dictatorial regimes (and you can add the Shah to the list btw) that torture and murder is as bad as pulling the trigger yourself, and sticking your head in the sand in willful ignorance of your own country's history doesn't help.

Like I said in my initial post, I know lots of Americans and love them, but your country has a terrible track record on the world stage. Until ordinary American's come to grips with this instead of spewing out excuses and moral equivalencies like you, there ain't a lot of hope for any change I'm afraid; saying "other countries did it, too" wasn't much of a rationale when I was in kindergarten and it still isn't.

A conversation between the US Ambassador to Greece with the CIA station head there on the day of the Colonel's Coup comes to mind. The ambassador expressed that what was taking place was a rape of democracy, to with the CIA man replied, "How can you rape a whore?". This unfortunately sums up the attitude reflected in much of the USA's foreign policy for decades. Beating on the drum of democracy when it suits their purpose.

[–] bkbirge 12 years ago

You'll have to argue more convincingly for your moral equivalence, just saying the US bears 100% responsibility as if they held the gun requires more than just your passionate statement.

Note I am not saying that the US is not partly responsible but your argument ignores the people who actually do pull the triggers as if they were nothing more than zombies that did the will of the evil empire. Which makes your numbers rubbish not because the actual number isn't correct but because you are correlating it to a cause with tenuous evidence at best and a-priori prejudice at worst. Just like the right wing reactionairies on the other side do.

I agree that too many people are willfully ignorant. There are also too many people that see conspiracy where there is none, when the normal effects of chaos, poor communication, greed, and large numbers of self interested people will provide the answer much easier.

My point about "other countries did it too" is not to absolve any responsibility or to say that behavior is justified but to underscore that power and those that seek to direct it are not confined to the bogeyman of the day but are part and parcel of every single country out there. The blood of collateral damage from influence peddling is on all your country's hands.

And I think that is also a part of the message of the movie.

[–] aim4 12 years ago

I was not the one arguing moral equivalency, you were, and still are: "My point about "other countries did it too" is not to absolve any responsibility or to say that behavior is justified but to underscore that power and those that seek to direct it are not confined to the bogeyman of the day but are part and parcel of every single country out there. The blood of collateral damage from influence peddling is on all your country's hands.".

Even accepting your premise that installing and maintaining murderous regimes isn't the same as pulling the trigger (which is absolute rubbish, of course the USA bears the responsibility!), you still (conveniently) haven't addressed the millions killed *directly* by the US in SE Asia.

"Which makes your numbers rubbish not because the actual number isn't correct but because you are correlating it to a cause with tenuous evidence at best and a-priori prejudice at worst"

This is solid, recorded, verifiable history, no denying it. Saying that the citizens aren't responsible for the actions of a government in a democratic society is a complete non sequitur; of course they are.

[–] NapoleonBender 12 years ago

You are DELUSIONAL if you think all of those death squads and regimes we propped up just kept on existing by chance or of their own accord. This is where the military industrial complex comes into play. People in here talk about "foreign aid" as if that's a good thing. "Foreign aid" supplied the jets and much more to help kill 200k people in Indonesia. It's basically a subsidy of the private military industry with public money. One of the things we never stopped making were GUNS. We still are. We even make AK47s in this country right now. Not to mention all of the advanced things like helicopters (which we give to Israel to commit all their assassinations with, no matter how many civilians they hit).

Look at this way, I think you'll like it. If we're not responsible for that, then Osama bin Laden was not responsible for 9/11. For one, the FBI and Dick Cheney have both gone on record saying they had 0 evidence connecting him to 9/11. Two, even if they did, he would STILL only be the FUNDER, not even the planner. That was (and still is) our role. So why does he deserve assassination, and we get basically no fault?

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

"but your country has a terrible track record on the world stage."

Really? When Europe had bled itself white and couldn't oust the Kaiser's armies in WWI, the US came in and tipped the balance with lives and treasure. When Europe couldn't evict Hitler, I seem to remember the US coming in and saving some ungrateful countries' rears. When Japan was in control of the Far East, who whipped them back to their own island? When North Korea invaded South Korea, who led the response? When North Vietnam attacked South Vietnam who tried to help? When Russia threatened Europe during the Cold War, who stepped into the breech? Hint: It wasn't you or your country.

[–] Daemian_Lucifer 12 years ago

Oh god,the ignorance!Its so overwhelming!

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

Are you referring to your ignorance of historical facts?

[–] Daemian_Lucifer 12 years ago

Nope,to your ignorance of historical facts.But I guess thats to be expected when youve learned it from the history channel.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

Possibly you, in your infinite wisdom, could point out even 1 inaccurate thing I said? BTW, I had a minor in History in college. Have you even had any high school?

[–] Daemian_Lucifer 12 years ago

One inaccurate thing?Ok,I could pick all of them but that would be too tiresome to type,so heres your one:World war 2,it wasnt the americans coming in to save everyone,they came in to speed up what russians started.The usa did help,yes,but by the time they decided to lay off japan* and come to europe,russia and england were already winning major victories,so usa involvement merely sped things up.

There you go,one thing.If you want to learn what was so wrong about the rest of your posts,go and read some books about those wars and educate yourself a bit.

*Which,by the way,wasnt so they could help anyone,but because japan started invading their territory.There,a free second thing you said wrong.

[–] dileas 12 years ago

Yeah, there's been a recent trend to try and give credit to Russia for defeating the Germans. It's cute and all, but not exactly historically accurate. The Russian winter did a good job at destroying Hitler's forces ... the Russians themselves? Not so much.

[–] Daemian_Lucifer 12 years ago

This is irrelevant for the topic at hand,but:

The russian winter alone wouldve been pretty useless if the russians didnt have equipment suited for such conditions.If both armies were crippled equally by weather,it wouldve been a stalemate until the next spring,when the germans would have much more chance.So yes,russians had plenty to do with hitlers defeat in the east.

[–] valtioneuvosto 12 years ago

Yeah, there's been a recent trend to try and give credit to Russia for defeating the Germans. It's cute and all, but not exactly historically accurate. The Russian winter did a good job at destroying Hitler's forces ... the Russians themselves? Not so much.

You really believe this? "Cute" and "not historically accurate". Please. The Eastern Front killed more over 5 million Axis soldiers and broke the back of Hitler's Germany while the Western Allies where only opening the long awaited second front in France. Look up Operation Bagration, for example. The Nazis were beaten, in the main, by Red Army soldiers fighting and dying for the Rodina and that is a fact.

In saying this, however, we have to acknowledge on one hand that the Soviets got huge material help from the US as Lend-Lease that made its large-scale operations possible, and on the other that for many countries (even the Soviet Union itself) Stalin was almost as bad a mass-murdering monster as Hitler was.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

You can pick nothing (aside from possibly your nose). If the 2nd front in
Normandy hadn't happened the Germans could have sent another 40 to 60 Divisions to the Eastern Front and rolled up the Russians quite nicely, thank you. You have the relative importance of the war in Europe and the war in the Pacific confused (like all your posts). Eisenhower demanded that 90% of the war effort be allocated to Europe and just what major victory did England win before Normandy? Dieppe? Dunkirk? Keep trying. They had some success in North Africa (according to my father-in-law who was there with Montgomery), but they still had American help in men and material. The Russians were doing well because Germany had so many divisions in the Balkans, Italy, North Africa, Norway,the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Poland, Greece, etc., etc. Actually, you'd be quite funny except people with your feeble grasp of history and complete lack of proportion are still allowed in the voting booth, if you're old enough, that is.

[–] Daemian_Lucifer 12 years ago

Great,I dont even have to refute your ignorant arguments now,since you did it yourself.Ill just copy and paste your own refutation of yourself:

When Europe couldn't evict Hitler, I seem to remember the US coming in and saving some ungrateful countries' rears.

The Russians were doing well because Germany had so many divisions in the Balkans, Italy, North Africa, Norway,the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Poland, Greece, etc., etc.

Yup,it was totally america that defeated hitler,no one else.

Also,I enjoy your little childish insults in these replies.They speak so well about your mental age,and yet you think that they add something meaningful against me.Thats comedy gold right there.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

Your original point, if you even had one, was what a villain the US appeared to be on the world stage and that you had no problem with a movie that came across as anti-American. Wasn't that it? Or not? I have simply pointed out a very few of the good things that the US has done (and I didn't even mention the Marshall Plan) and you can't seem to see the forest for the trees. Are you French?

[–] Daemian_Lucifer 12 years ago

Oh hey,I didnt even notice this reply.Well,in case you still are reading,let me respond:

No,my original point had nothing to do with the usa being a villain.That was someone else you are confusing me with.My original point was that your examples of usa saving everyone and their mothers was historically completely inaccurate.Good things,sure they did those.But saving everyone,hardly.

And that french bit,I wont even dignify that with an answer.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

Yep. You're French.

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 12 years ago

by wnewman106 3 hours ago (Wed Jul 11 2012 19:11:37)
Ignore this User | Report Abuse
Yep. You're French.

If you can't participate civilly, why can't you just refrain from posting? Whatever valid points you might have had, you've thrown away all credibility once you traded reason for insult. I'm just sad that you're American participating in a multicultural forum.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

Does the word "French" have a bad connotation to you? You consider it an insult? Sounds like you have some unresolved issues. Well, you should seek treatment elsewhere as this is not the forum for your problems. This forum is to discuss movies and, in this case, movies in the historical context of WWII. The more serious people here are dealing in numbers of divisions available for transfer to the eastern and western fronts as well as the peripheral battlegrounds in the Scandinavian countries, the Balkans, etc and the impact upon important world events. You may take your phobias elsewhere.

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 12 years ago

Does the word "French" have a bad connotation to you? You consider it an insult? Sounds like you have some unresolved issues. Well, you should seek treatment elsewhere as this is not the forum for your problems. This forum is to discuss movies and, in this case, movies in the historical context of WWII. The more serious people here are dealing in numbers of divisions available for transfer to the eastern and western fronts as well as the peripheral battlegrounds in the Scandinavian countries, the Balkans, etc and the impact upon important world events. You may take your phobias elsewhere.

So sad, you are dishonest as well. Here's your quote in context:

wnewman106: "...you can't seem to see the forest for the trees. Are you French?"
Daemian_Lucifer" "...And that french bit,I wont even dignify that with an answer."
wnewman106: "Yep. You're French."

And now you try to pretend you weren't trying to be insulting.

And this was immediately following some of your other fine moments:

"You can pick nothing (aside from possibly your nose)."
"Actually, you'd be quite funny except people with your feeble grasp of history and complete lack of proportion are still allowed in the voting booth"

And you say that I'm the one with issues and phobias. Right.

The sad part is that I'm sure I'd agree with you on some of your points and disagree with Daemian_Lucifer on some of his perspective. But you destroy any chance of a real discussion.

And perpetuate terrible stereotypes of Americans.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

It is quite possible I was directing my comments at Daemian_Lucifer and you just got in the way. What is your view on the discussion at hand? My view is that the world, particularly Europe, owes the USA a mighty (unpaid) debt and the type of people who comment on IMDB should be aware of that fact. I lost an uncle and several cousins in Normandy and had many other relatives there who gave up a portion of their lifetimes to save Europe from its own follies. Yes, the Russians did a fine job, but if the Americans hadn't arrived, both in WWI and WWII, the Germans would own Europe. I travel to Europe upon occasion and will be in France this coming September. I am an urbane sophisticate that makes other people admire Americans unless they are looking for trouble in which case I can and have given a very good account of myself.

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 12 years ago

It is quite possible I was directing my comments at Daemian_Lucifer and you just got in the way.

Yes, I was objecting to the manner of your comments to Daemian_Lucifer.

I am an urbane sophisticate that makes other people admire Americans unless they are looking for trouble in which case I can and have given a very good account of myself.

I'm afraid that statement is somewhat self-contradictory, and also contradicted by your behavior in this thread. Almost to the point where I wonder if your responses might be some kind of a hoax.

But, in case you just let your defensive emotions get the better of you, here is my opinion on the underlying subject.

My view is that the world, particularly Europe, owes the USA a mighty (unpaid) debt

I don't really see this. The USA did massively good things for Europe during and in the aftermath of WWII, and I don't think many (other than Axis or communist of the time) would disagree with that. But even in that time of massive effort by us, we did not do all good, just on the balance, very good. But to state that anyone owes us a "mighty (unpaid) debt" is (IMO) just wrong. We chose to do those things for our own reasons. Certainly a huge part of that was motivated by humanitarian good, but the biggest reason was because we had to. You can't just take a kick to the head and then not fight back. Japan attacked us, and then Japan and Germany declared war on us. Before we were directly attacked, the bulk of the US population wanted no part of the active fighting, for a lot whole list of very good reasons. To be honest, if I was living at that time I'm pretty sure I would not have advocated entering that war at that point without direct provocation.

And also, you can't go and help someone and the lord it over them in perpetuity. Did not the French assist us massively in the revolutionary war? Sure, their reasons were complex as well, but should we have it thrown in our face that we owe them a "a mighty (unpaid) debt"?

BTW, my uncle was shot in Italy, and never fully recovered. My father was training for the invasion of mainland Japan, and then was posted to postwar Germany.

The argument by others that the Russians would have beat the Germans on their own is probably true, but I think it is a red herring to this discussion. I don't think that anyone with western values, from that time or since, would have wanted all of Western Europe to have been “liberated” by the Russians. Stalin (IMO) was just one step away from Hitler, and on many measures, probably worse.

So I guess I would say that I find that the situation was more complex than you make it.

And most of all I think that whom your friends are, and who owes you, depends on how you treat them throughout the entire relationship, and not just parts of the relationship.

And that we should chill out a bit (esp. when being poked fun at) and realize that besides being friends and doing good, we've also done some dishonorable things that have really pissed people off.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

You're making things more difficult than necessary. The warlike nature of Prussian Militarism was clear from 1888 to 1914. The warlike natures of Fascism, Communism, and National Socialism were plain as day all through the 1930s and the necessary steps to contain these isms were not taken by Britain or France. This was Europe's problem, not the US's. To reduce this to it's essentials, no US in WWI = the Kaiser has 1/2 of France and all of Belgium because the French and British were bled dry and could not evict the Germans. No US in WWII = negotiated settlement between Britain and Germany, occupied France, Belgium, Netherlands, etc., etc., by either Germany or Russia. Now, who owes whom?

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 12 years ago

You're making things more difficult than necessary.

I realize you do believe this. I obviously do not. I think my take is actually a pretty big simplification in itself.

The warlike natures of Fascism, Communism, and National Socialism were plain as day all through the 1930s and the necessary steps to contain these isms were not taken by Britain or France.

Claiming that others should have had foresight as good as your hindsight, lumping together very distinct entities (even if related), ignoring differences in political situations in different regions at different times, highlighting others' faults while minimizing our own - all this for me is gross oversimplification. By the same logic you could ask why didn't we take the necessary steps to contain these “isms” in the 1930s.

This was Europe's problem, not the US's.

If this is so, then why did we spend so much in blood and treasure dealing with it?

To reduce this to it's essentials, no US in WWI = the Kaiser has 1/2 of France and all of Belgium because the French and British were bled dry and could not evict the Germans.

This is unknowable, but in my opinion, I think unlikely. Certainly the war would probably have lasted longer, maybe a lot longer. But I don't think you can predict the endgame of such a situation.

No US in WWII = negotiated settlement between Britain and Germany, occupied France, Belgium, Netherlands, etc., etc., by either Germany or Russia. Now, who owes whom?

I don't disagree that this might have been a likely outcome, but that doesn't lead to the conclusion that anybody "owes" anybody anything almost 70 years later. And as an aside, if you don't already have have it, you're not likely to get sincere gratitude by demanding it.

People disagreeing is fine. Sinking to insult and being ungracious when you disagree is a whole different matter, and reflects especially poorly when employed in a cultural way by a citizen of a nation already stereotyped to be arrogant, rude, and oblivious. We already have a bad rep in this regard out there, whether overall it is justified or not.

----- oops, left out of original -----

The warlike nature of Prussian Militarism was clear from 1888 to 1914.

What about the warlike nature of British Militarism during that same time, and before? Or of the US against Spain in Cuba and the Philippines? And you do know that Germany practically stumbled into WWI, right?

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

"By the same logic you could ask why didn't we take the necessary steps to contain these “isms” in the 1930s."

Answer: It was Europe's problem until war was declared on us by Japan and Germany.

"If this is so, then why did we spend so much in blood and treasure dealing with it?"

Answer: It was Europe's problem until war was declared on us by Japan and Germany. Don't know how you missed that. It was in ALL the Newspapers.

"This is unknowable, but in my opinion, I think unlikely. Certainly the war would probably have lasted longer, maybe a lot longer. But I don't think you can predict the endgame of such a situation."

Unknowable to YOU, quite knowable to military Historians. I had a minor in History in college and the negotiated settlement was taught as the most likely scenario absent a large influx of new troops from somewhere.

Maybe you had let Damian_Lucifer fight his own battles. You're not doing too well.

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 12 years ago

"By the same logic you could ask why didn't we take the necessary steps to contain these “isms” in the 1930s."

Answer: It was Europe's problem until war was declared on us by Japan and Germany.

Almost childlike in its oversimplification.

"If this is so, then why did we spend so much in blood and treasure dealing with it?"

Answer: It was Europe's problem until war was declared on us by Japan and Germany. Don't know how you missed that. It was in ALL the Newspapers.

Childlike both in presentation and in oversimplification.

"This is unknowable, but in my opinion, I think unlikely. Certainly the war would probably have lasted longer, maybe a lot longer. But I don't think you can predict the endgame of such a situation."

Unknowable to YOU, quite knowable to military Historians. I had a minor in History in college and the negotiated settlement was taught as the most likely scenario absent a large influx of new troops from somewhere.

Unsupported assertion. Glad you got a minor in history, at some institution. Means very little especially given the quality of your analysis.

Maybe you had let Damian_Lucifer fight his own battles.

Never was fighting a battle for anyone else. I only want others in this forum to see a counter-example to boorish arrogance and ignorance.

You're not doing too well

Ha-ha! If you have to crow it, it probably isn't true.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

It is apparent you're not ever going to read a book so maybe if you just google "what if America stayed out of WWI" you could get some idea of what people conjecture would probably have happened in an alternative history of Europe. You might google "German spring offensive 1918" and see what the Germans thought about America's entry into WWI. You might learn something, but alas, your posts so far have shown little or no capacity to see beyond your own hasty, ill-formed thoughts. Sadly, your only function seems to be that you make damian_lucifer seem smart by comparison.

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 12 years ago

It is apparent you're not ever going to read a book

Nanny-nanny boo to you too! Your power of discourse dazzles me!

so maybe if you just google "what if America stayed out of WWI" you could get some idea of what people conjecture would probably have happened in an alternative history of Europe.

So maybe if you just google "how can I understand what the meaning of the word 'conjecture' is", you could perhaps avoid looking like a fool in front of countless people on the Internet in the next time.

You might google "German spring offensive 1918" and see what the Germans thought about America's entry into WWI.

You might learn to not instruct people to learn about something they are already well acquainted with, and further that it is usually good to have some kind of a point.

You might learn something, but alas, your posts so far have shown little or no capacity to see beyond your own hasty, ill-formed thoughts.

What else can you say since you have no substantive reply?

Sadly, your only function seems to be that you make damian_lucifer seem smart by comparison.

I think anyone who reads these posts will understand immediately whom the imbecile is.

At least you have shown that you are profoundly deficient, and not just an American acting like a jerk.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

This help you any?

"A conjecture is a proposition that is unproven but is thought to be true and has not been disproven. Conjecture is contrasted by hypothesis (hence theory, axiom, principle), which is a testable statement based on accepted grounds. In mathematics, a conjecture is an unproven proposition or theorem that appears correct."

If you have any knowledge of the Spring 1918 German Offensive, you must be keeping it to yourself as your posts seem to be devoid of any understanding. The Germans rushed a million troops from the Eastern Front to the Western Front in hopes of winning the war before the American troops could tip the balance. Didn't work. Americans arrived. End of story.

Have you always been this difficult to teach?

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 12 years ago

So you are sticking with “conjecture” = “knowable”, huh. You are nothing if not dogged. But perhaps a cut and paste from google doesn't imply understanding at all.

Your quotes, Herodotus:

'Unknowable to YOU, quite knowable to military Historians. I had a minor in History in college and the negotiated settlement was taught as the most likely scenario absent a large influx of new troops from somewhere.'

'It is apparent you're not ever going to read a book so maybe if you just google "what if America stayed out of WWI" you could get some idea of what people conjecture would probably have happened in an alternative history of Europe. You might google "German spring offensive 1918" and see what the Germans thought about America's entry into WWI.'

'A conjecture is a proposition that is unproven but is thought to be true and has not been disproven'

So, “unproven but is thought probably to be true by people” is the same thing as “quite knowable to military Historians”. And since unspecified military historians (and a professed history minor) can conjecture that the allies would have sued for peace, then it is “knowable” that they would have sued for peace. And you can state this fallacy with absolute, oblivious, and ill-mannered self-certainty because: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect.

"If you have any knowledge of the Spring 1918 German Offensive, you must be keeping it to yourself as your posts seem to be devoid of any understanding. The Germans rushed a million troops from the Eastern Front to the Western Front in hopes of winning the war before the American troops could tip the balance. Didn't work. Americans arrived. End of story.'

I can only assume you are clumsily trying to use the offensive as evidence for the argument that without the USA entering WWI, the allies would have had to sue for peace and leave Germany in possession of large swathes of allied territory. I say clumsily, because you haven't given any indication how you think it supports your argument.

And you (again, simplistically) leave out very relevant facts. Like that the 1918 Spring Offensive had already stalled prior to Pershing deploying the bulk of US troops. So even without the bulk of US troops, even with all the troops Germany pulled in from the Russian front, the Spring offensive had failed. As you so eloquently stated “Didn't work”. If anything, this is evidence against your position, but definitely not for it. It showed that the Germans could not bring about a victory even with the troops from the Russian front and and without the bulk of American troops.

And astonishingly you leave out the German home situation. Britain's blockade had been very effective for years at this point. Germany was being starved. The home front was terribly war-weary. There was unrest. Germany was being pressured in ways the allies were not. If the war dragged on, it would have been harder for Germany, who was isolated, than for the allies, who had uninterrupted trade.

Let me reiterate something clearly. Although I have opinions based on the situation and trends at the time, I don't “know” what would have happened if the USA did not enter WWI. But neither do you. And neither do historians. Historians and people can conjecture – which means speculate, not “know”, as to what might have transpired. But I am quite confident that a historian would never claim it was “knowable”.

But you rudely asserting that you do certainly know, with not a blemish of reflection, speaks volumes.

”This help you any?“
“as your posts seem to be devoid of any understanding”
“Americans arrived. End of story”
“Have you always been this difficult to teach?”

Surely these statements are strong evidence that you, as you have claimed, are an “urbane sophisticate”.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

Troll, thy name is YouMightRabbitYouMight. You trolled onto this thread and have ranted nonsense the whole time. Have someone read a History book to you sometime. The Spring Offensive stalled because of extended supply lines and then the arrival of the Americans pushed it back. It's in ALL the books and newspapers. The Germans had the territory and without the extra 2,000,000 Americans would have kept it. If you're an example of what our schools are producing (wait...you did go to school, didn't you?), then no wonder this world is in trouble. I'm just glad you're not an American.

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 12 years ago

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1034314/board/thread/199637554?d=201622468 <==== the start of the fun

Just can't get enough of that urbanity and sophistication.
---

Troll, thy name is YouMightRabbitYouMight. You trolled onto this thread and have ranted nonsense the whole time.

I'm so sorry. Being nonsensical I mistook your reasoned argument for embarrassing cultural derision. I have a problem with bullies who try to compensate for their profound ignorance and lack of capability with browbeat and insult. But after conversing with you more, I realize that you were just joshin' in a good-hearted way! My bad for buttin' in.

Have someone read a History book to you sometime.

I think I'm going to do it! Thanks for the friendly suggestion!

The Spring Offensive stalled because of extended supply lines and then the arrival of the Americans pushed it back.

Arguing against your own position for comedic effect! Only an urbane sophisticate could do that, am I right? Am I right?!?

It's in ALL the books and newspapers.

No way. You just blew my mind!

The Germans had the territory and without the extra 2,000,000 Americans would have kept it.

Wow, just asserting this again without support really made the difference! I totally agree with you now!

If you're an example of what our schools are producing (wait...you did go to school, didn't you?)

I did! Thanks for expressing concern, that's so sweet of you.

then no wonder this world is in trouble.

Yeah, we really showed that there's trouble here in the USA, didn't we? I mean we can't even discuss things civilly without resorting to rude, bullying, boorish behavior! But we worked together and highlighted the problem! So now, somebody can fix it, right? Put 'er there, teammate!

I'm just glad you're not an American.

Well, I am from the South, but I thought that still made me an American... Is there a book you can point me to so that I can look it up?

---
I guess like every other entrenched social ill, this one will only really disappear generationally.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 12 years ago

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1034314/board/thread/199637554?d=201622468 <==== the start of the fun

OK, I get it. Ha Ha.

Oh, if only you did get it. Then you might be able to change. But I'm afraid that a major characteristic of old inept bully bigots is the inability to even see their flaws, much less change them.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

There, there.....it's all right. As a matter of fact, you've been right all along and it is everyone else who is deluded. I checked further....imagine my surprise when I found out the Americans didn't really tip the balance of the war in WWI! No, there WAS NO war in Europe, because the South won the Civil War and John Wilkes Booth went to Europe and killed the 6 year old Kaiser. Thank goodness YOU have been here to keep us all straight on History. I shall immediately burn all my books on the obviously Alternative History that says the British, French, and Germans exhausted themselves to the point where the Germans occupied a large part of France, Belgium, etc and it took the arrival of 2,000,000 American troops to turn the tide and force the Germans to seek an Armistice. What was Grosset and Dunlap, the Encyclopedia Britannica, McGraw-Hill and others thinking when they misled us all? I'm also angry at my grandfather who was so deluded he actually got on a troop transport and went to Europe in early 1918. I'm pretty sure the American invented internet has been subverted also. You may want to take that up with Al Gore, but you have my firm support in your efforts to get this horrible injustice corrected. Please try to repair the other historical foolishness written about Napoleon that said he died long ago, but we both know Napoleon is alive and well and posting under the name YouMightRabbitYouMight (a clever anagram that translates to "I am Napoleon and am alive and well in this Imperial Chateau with nurses and doctors and everything). Good luck and I shall never question your authority on any historical matters ever again now that I know who you really are.

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 12 years ago

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1034314/board/thread/199637554?d=201622468 <==== the start of the fun

There, there.....it's all right. As a matter of fact, you've been right all along and it is everyone else who is deluded.

So now a single fool is = "everyone else".

And the rest. You take disagreement on what would have transpired if the Americans had not entered into WWI and come up with that ridiculous straw-absurdity? Is there no end to your desire to make yourself look foolish?

Your attempts to caricature those who disagree with you only reveal more about yourself.

I'm pretty sure your grandfather who got on that troop transport would be angry at you, too, for being such an embarrassment to the country I'm sure he loved.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

Everyone else = EVERY historian and contemporary observer in 1918 who actually noticed the GERMANS WERE OCCUPYING PARTS OF FRANCE AND BELGIUM AND HADN'T BEEN FORCED OUT until the Americans arrived. Tell your handler it's "Nappy time for Nappy" and have him or her tuck you in.

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 12 years ago

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1034314/board/thread/199637554?d=201622468 <==== the start of the fun

EVERY historian and contemporary observer in 1918 who actually noticed the GERMANS WERE OCCUPYING PARTS OF FRANCE AND BELGIUM AND HADN'T BEEN FORCED OUT until the Americans arrived.

Such intellect! Comfortable making broad, unverifiable assertions with unwavering self-certainty!
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect)
And cannot distinguish between what actually occurred with conjecture about what may have happened if the Americans had not entered.

Tell your handler it's "Nappy time for Nappy" and have him or her tuck you in.

You really are committed to your role as the Ugly American.

[–] dileas 11 years ago

Dude, he handed you your ass on a silver platter, and you didn't even have the courage to bow out with grace.

[–] linop90 10 years ago

Funny how the modern republican party has morphed into a crypto fascist form.
Where have the good old fiscal conservatives gone?

They have taken something pure and good - fascism. and turned into a soapbox for evangelists, gun nuts and people who think America should live like 200 years ago.

Btw America should not have gotten involved in the European theatre in ww2.
It was not Americas fight and most people back then supported Germany and disliked jews, especially consevatives. Funny how things change.

Eat the Neocons.

[–] Daemian_Lucifer 12 years ago

Wow,suddenly france is 1500km in diameter.Huh...Well,thanks,I should go to study french then,because it is my native language,apparently.

[–] russelledwards001 12 years ago

Please do some more reading! The Germans were on the back foot for the rest of the war after stalingrad and that was in January 1943. The d day landings didn;t happen for over a year afterwards When you say: 'Normandy hadn't happened the Germans could have sent another 40 to 60 Divisions to the Eastern Front and rolled up the Russians quite nicely, thank you.' Sorry - that is pure nonsense.

D Day helped end it more quickly, but strategically d day prevented the russians from taking over the whole of western europe - this is what the americans were really concerned about.

Also, the British managed perfectly well to prevent a german invasion in WW2 before the US got involved - something called 'the battle of britain'. They also, as your relative suggests, beat the axis forces in north africa.

Americans taking credit for winning WW2 really is a distortion of the facts. Have you seen the numbers involved in the eastern front? Millions upon millions of casualties - the experience of america and britain in WW2 were nothing compared to what went on in the east. The east was where the war was really fought and lost by the germans.

[–] holtor 12 years ago

> prevented the russians from taking over the whole of western europe - this is what the americans were really concerned about.

+ everyone else in europe, including the germans. Most were quite happy to quickly surrender to the americans, which were not involved in the previous horrors. Most soldiers knew since Stalingrad that this war was over, they just desperately tried to keep the russians from taking revenge. Why there were even battles in the west is beyond me; I suppose the US soldiers were that unexperienced that it was really difficult to make them conquer you, even if you tried really hard.

[–] holtor 12 years ago

>I had a minor in History in college

Apparently you mean this as a rather cynical comment on the quality of US education?

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

I meant that I am in a position to be able to write a book on the subject if I so choose. Some of the people on this thread seem to be so reading and logic impaired that I doubt they can be taught in the US or any other country.

[–] hernima 12 years ago

And would you mind to remind on that book that it was Germany who declared war on the USA in WWII and not the other way? Or that USA had no problem with Japanese mass-murdering Chinese until they hit American islands too?

Even Lend-Lease program was a personal initiative of Roosevelt circumventing Congress restrictions, and put him in direct threat for impeachment.

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

What is your point?

[–] tushania 12 years ago

In the words of US President from the movie - "Watch the movies! Movies don't lie!"

Don't you feel that the narratives you invoke are all read like suspense stories? Everyone was gloomy and didn't know what to do, the world was at stake, the axe was ready to fall, the girl was dangling above a shark pit - and in walked the US and saved the day.

Come on, even Americans make fun of cliches like this. Please, just PLEASE: do a quick check on WWI and WWII - a real check using 2 or 3 sources containing overview of the war efforts. I don't want you to change your opinion to mine - I just want you to have an informed one, not the one based on literary cliches like "tipped the balance" or "saving asses".

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

Golly, some French and British and Dutch and Belgian and Chinese and Polish and Jews (you get the picture) who were actually there seemed to use the "literary cliches" frequently when they wrote of their gratitude to the US for "tipping the balance" and "saving their asses". If you can't read, at least look at some old newsreels from those days showing what happened when the Americans rolled into town. The people there knew when they were being OCCUPIED and THREATENED and KILLED and put into WORK CAMPS and CONSCRIPTED, but of course they were only participants and don't have your world view.

[–] holtor 12 years ago

All hail to the US, whose army bravely fought its way through Poland and China to rid them of the axis occupation!

[–] wnewman106 12 years ago

Thanks for mentioning China as people tend to forget Claire Chennault's Flying Tigers and what they did in and for China. And where would Poland have been without the US leading the Western front? German or possibly Russian.

[–] rothoehler 12 years ago

"When Europe couldn't evict Hitler, I seem to remember the US coming in and saving some ungrateful countries' rears".

The US didn't give a *beep* about Hitler or "the rears" of the occupied European countries. They entered the war only when their own interests were threatened, i.e. after Pearl Habor. Despite beeing officially in state of war with Germany since 1941, they only fought against Japan in the pacific arena. 1942 they even openly denied the pledges of the European allies to help building up a "2nd front" in France. When they finally cosidered taking part in the invasion of Europe, England and Russia had already pretty much managed to evict Hitler. The momentum of war had turned against Germany aleady in 1942.

"When Russia threatened Europe during the Cold War, who stepped into the breech?"

Again, while western Europe surely got the benefits, the US just protected their own political interests.

"When Europe had bled itself white and couldn't oust the Kaiser's armies in WWI, the US came in and tipped the balance"

How is this a good thing? You seem to mix up WWI with WWII. Germany or "the Kaiser" didn't start WWI. It was started by Austria as a local conflict and went "global" when Russia totally unprovoked invaded east Prussia.

[–] hernima 8 years ago

Well, to be fair it was Germany who declared war on the Russian Empire in 1914. And then yes, they waited until the Russians invaded them because that´s what they plan for the war had decided (send 7/8 parts of the Army West and come back for the Russians after knocking the French out).

[–] vfrickey 11 years ago

aim4: "And nice dodge on the millions of innocent people the USA killed in SE Asia, not worth commenting on?"

Which "millions" would those be?

We happened to shoot a great many Communists while there, but unfortunately not enough to prevent the Khmer Rouge, Pathet Lao and North Vietnamese from murdering millions in cold blood for the horrible crimes of being literate or having the most tenuous links with non-communist political parties. There are reliable records for THOSE murders, but people like you suddenly forget how to Google when they come up in discussion.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] msvista 12 years ago

Thanks for your meaningful contribution. You make the world a better place. Seriously. Pats on your back.

[–] nat160 12 years ago

So in your little world....all movies have to be pro-american?

[–] fester268-1 12 years ago

Unless you haven't realised, which I sincerely doubt, most of the world hates America. It's probably because the whole country is wrapped up in an overblown sense of it's own self importance. My country has slowly been invaded by the U.S. to such a point that our language is devolving, our education system is failing the people it is supposed to be helping and all there is for them to watch on TV is the spewing, self important, detritus that the U.S. uses as underground propaganda to influence the young and the impressionable into becoming young Americans. The good 'ole U.S.of A. is the home of the brainwashed and the land of the oppressed. It is a nation of xenophobes in a land of immigrants

[–] fourswords2003 12 years ago

What country is your country?

Television : The people medium, for medium people.

[–] RomeoKnight 9 years ago

Any country with McDonald's in it. 😱