Mr. Careful just forgets his National ID? What's up with that?
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It must have been fake. He didn't want to be at that hotel in the first place; no way was he going to give them his real ID.
You must be the change you seek in the world. -- Gandhi
Yeah I agree. I think he used the ID as another excuse to make the girls feel even more guilty/worried so he could get what he want out of them. And the pig did get what he wanted...
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Spoilers ....
Theory #1: Bebe is used to being at the safe hotel where they don't require you to leave your ID at the front desk, so he simply forgets
Theory #2: It was a fake ID, so he didn't care, but he uses this fact as a way to brow beat the two women and make them feel worse
Theory #3: It is a plot device; when Otilia receives Bebe's ID from the front desk clerk, she tosses it into her cloth bag/purse along with her own expired ID. Later she puts the fetus in her bag. We never see her remove the two IDs (her own and Bebes), thus they are in the bag with the fetus. So when she dumps the bag in the trash shoot at the high rise apartment building, there is a possibility that if someone goes through the trash and finds the bag, looks through it, and reports it to the police, she and Bebe will be identified with the fetus, and probably arrested.
santacruzette--Interesting theory about the two IDs, but it won't wash. Otilia upends the purse and apparently dumps everything out to make room before putting the fetus in. There's no point in the film I can recall where she carefully puts anything into a separate zippered compartment: she just rummages. So the IDs would have fallen out along with everything else.
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Did anyone else think that Bebe was a complete a-hole? Other than he could be jailed for this, I don't see one ounce of sympathy for this girl in his behavior. God, I hated him and those damn hotel desk clerks.
shareWhile I was watching, I had this feeling he was still in the building and was going to go back to the room to do something, I had no idea what but that's what came to mind, lol. I now assume it was a fake ID.
Please check out some short reviews by me here.
http://filmandtv-reviews.blogspot.com/
At the time I thought he left his real ID there on purpose to draw away suspicion from himself, since someone who was there for some nefarious purpose would make sure he took his ID - reverse psychology.
shareI think he just forgot it. He's human and we all forget stuff once and a while. What a pig though! Using desperate girls for sex and not even offering to take money instead. I know they had a "choice", but they were so desperate that what else could they do? That young woman would have been completely ostracized for having a baby out of wedlock and her life would have been ruined by having to drop out of school. This is what happens in a society without birth control or abortion!
Obama for America!!
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Listen, if you're going to further victimize victims, at least get the story right.
Adi was not planning a birthday party for Otilia, it was his mother's birthday party and he asked her to go to it.
As for your claim about the alternative procedures, they go over that in the movie. It was far too late in Gabita's pregnancy to find another practitioner. Gabita said that she picked this guy because he would do abortions after the first trimester. By the time they realized what an awful human being he was, it was too late to go elsewhere.
Then your comment about it him trying to leave several times, although I cannot prove this, my thought is that he was trying to coerce them into what he wanted, because he knew they had so few, if any, alternatives left to them at that point. And to say that the sex was not coercive and forceful is ridiculous. What were they supposed to do, if we consider that there were no other options? Coercive sex is not consensual, it's still rape.
As for your last sentence, "I despise just as much victims who allow themselves to be abused," it turns my stomach. It is never so simple as, "why didn't she/he leave?" "Why didn't they just him/her back?". Being victimized is a process where a person is broken down so that they can't stand up for themselves, either that they feel they deserve it or that they cannot fight back. That's the intention of the final scene, where Otilia says they will never talk about this again. They will be stigmatized for every aspect. Think of when Gabita acquiesces to Mr. Bebe. She says that she has done wrong and that she must pay the price. He had already told her that, punishing her emotionally (as society had already done) and then taking advantage of her fear and revulsion.
I'm sorry if I have offended you, but I hope that you understand that despising a victim for what was done to them only makes them more of a victim and doesn't solve anything.
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The movie and the message it conveys aside, it is obvious that you are one person who ONLY sees things as black or white. To be honest there are a couple of points that I agree with you on, but I truly think your views on the victimization of people to be completely ridiculous.
Again movie aside, if simply up and leaving a relationship or situation where one is being victimized and controlled, was so easy, then there would be no reports of husbands killing their wives by beating them to death. Imagine the free time the cops would have. It simply does not work like that. Being emotionally abused to the point where one feels that they are nothing but trash makes the idea of leaving seem almost unobtainable. From your comments you have obviously not been in a situation like that but it happens everyday to women (and even men) all over the world. I long for the day that dehumanized individuals have the epiphany that you have shared here where it is all cut and dry. I wish they would see how simple it is, I mean you wrote it so simply so it must be. Lastly, to see the Coen bros iconic saying being victimized as a closing quote by a person with this mind set does induce a certain level of nausea.
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The guy who was responsible for this "terrible state of affairs" in this country, Nicolae Ceauşescu, WAS HAULED OUT BY HIS PEOPLE AND PUBLICLY EXECUTED.
Is that "black and white" enough for you?
He was a c@cksucker who, at best, allowed a system like this to exist, and at worst actively cultivated it (I vote for the latter).
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Coercive sex IS rape. Stop perpetuating rape culture. You don't have to be black and blue to say you've been raped. If someone puts a gun to your head and says, LET ME *beep* YOU or you DIE, you don't have any choice do you? Do you wanna die? Or live with the fact that someone took their hatred of women out on you by raping you SIMPLY because you're female? A choice between two piles of sh!t isn't a choice at all. You choose ONE of them because you HAVE to even though you DON'T WANT TO. Someone's FORCING you to make a choice YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE. Still rape.
Also quit blaming victims and apologising for rape. Those women didn't have any choice and Bebe took advantage of this. If you wanna blame someone, blame society. Blame their world for making abortion illegal. Blame it for having the audacity to not let women be free to make decisions about their own bodies.
Your logic is pretty sickeningly gross and hateful.
That's a terrible metaphor, in your example, the victim didn't do anything to lead up to having a gun pointed at her head. In the case of the movie, the girl was directly responsible for the fact that she's pregnant.
You're obviously pro-choice and so am I, but I think that's almost beside the point. Yes, it sucks that in their society at the time abortion was illegal, but Gabi acted knowing the law. She should be responsible for her actions. Similarly, I am for the legalization of marijuana, but I don't think it's unfair that marijuana users are punished when they're caught, because currently it's still illegal. If you disagree with the law, you should try to change it, but if you knowingly disobey, you should still be held accountable.
So, going back to the movie, Gabi knew that abortion was illegal. She still chose to take the risk, and you know, bad luck or whatever, but she has to take responsibility.
Similarly, I am for the legalization of marijuana, but I don't think it's unfair that marijuana users are punished when they're caught, because currently it's still illegal.
That's a terrible metaphor, in your example, the victim didn't do anything to lead up to having a gun pointed at her head.
In the case of the movie, the girl was directly responsible for the fact that she's pregnant.
>> Like a hospital or an abortion clinic? I know, I know what you're thinking. If they go through official channels there are unfavourable ramifications but it was still an option for starters and secondly, would those ramifications be worse than sleeping with a man you despise to get what you want?
ok, so i'm pretty sure there were no "official channels" for them to go through. without doing all my homework, i'm pretty sure that contraception and abortion were both illegal in romania at the time. that's kind of a major point in the movie that you seemed to have missed.
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>>"Okay, so it's illegal, and what? Dropping chewing gum on the sidewalk is illegal but I imagine a lot of people do it anyway. I'd rather go to hospital, have an abortion and be arrested than do what the girls did. Let's assume the hospital turns them away. Is abortion in other countries illegal? Was the money they used not enough to get them on a bus and out of the country to have the procedure done."
The fact of the matter is if they did find a doctor willing to do the abortion at a hospital they would be looking at far more money. A certified medical practitioner willing to risk his/her career to do the procedure would be far more expensive than Mr Bebe's amateur job. I really doubt they could have acquired enough money for that and your suggestion that they leave the country is similarly unreasonable given the cost. It would also arouse suspicion for two poor students go for a 'vacation' in the middle of their semester. So really I can't see that they had any other option.
>>"The one thing about this film that really irritates me is the fact that everyone is trying to defend two stupid people making a succession of stupid choices and then sympathizing with them because of it."
I wouldn't call them stupid. Like you said they may have made a succession of stupid choices but I hardly think that means they're as guilty as Bebe for getting raped (and yes consent given unwillingly is NOT consent). Gabita did leave it too late but its not really a decision easily made. Otilia did the best she could in that situation. Its easy for anyone to objectively view the situation and say 'oh Bebe wasn't really going to leave he was just trying to make them pay up more if I were her i'd psych him out and tell him just to go' but Otilia and Gabita felt completely helpless and couldn't see any real alternative.
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You don't seem to understand the repressive nature of the communist Romania at the time this film is set. The whole point is that their situation is hopeless and that they have no other options. I don't think its hard to understand that they can't easily leave the country and in terms of suspicion I was referring to the fact that they didn't really want to advertise her situation to family/friends etc. An illegal abortion isn't really something you want people to know about.
Ok let's run with that. No 'reasonable' alternatives etc etc. I will defend them no matter what and apparently that is what causes people like Bebe to prey on vulnerable? In any case if the girls are as stupid as you relentlessly believe doesn't that make their situation more sympathisable? You seem to be arguing that they brought it on themselves or that the way people respond to their situation causes them to behave in a way that brings about their rape. Am I getting this right?
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you are completely ignorant and insist on insulting the experience of people who actually lived through this kind of stuff.
i don't know in which country you live and how old you are but you speak like a cocky youngster who never knew what it means to live in a dictatorship, completely brainwashed and with no freedom. For your information, it was impossible to leave Romania at the time. The ease with which you recommend that the young women get on a bus or just cross the border illegally shows your complete and aggressive ignorance. Crossing the border in those times was not like walking over from Tijuana to San Diego. It was going to get you shot.
I don't have time to point out all the other inaccuracies and blatant ego trips that your posts are full of (yeah, how about you start a workshop for the survivors of Rwandan genocide and explain to them how they deserved their fate because they didn't stand up for themselves?). There's one reason you should be happy and thank God for though: that you obviously have led such a sheltered life you have absolutely no clue whatsoever what's going on in this world.
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i dind't insult you, I called you exactly like I saw it.
good for you that you managed to survive guns and knives. That gives you absolutely no authority to talk about what it means to live in an authoritarian regime, or in times of war and genocide. that you know yourself, is good for you. But you have no way of knowing yourself in a situation you were never been faced with. Not having grown up in a dictatorship, obviously you can't know that experience. Even if you were put in a limit situation in an authoritarian regime now, it wouldn't be the same as having never known anything but that authoritarian regime for your whole life. Your comment about the Holocaust reiterates what I have said before - you have no respect and are quick to judge. The terribilism of youth, what can I say.
As for what brainwashing has to do with abortion - it has to do with one's ability to make decisions. People have been brainwashed into committing mass suicide and not even brainwashed that much into becoming mass murderers. Finding yourself paralyzed in a situation that might seem like a no-brainer to other people is really not that difficult or unheard of.
Stay in England, or at least Western Europe. God knows what you might find out about yourself if you venture into an unknown situation.
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It seems to me that this is more about your personal problems and your need to present yourself as some kind of fearless amazing mountain-moving person. This is a board about films. And calling me "xenophobe" because I truly felt worried for you and gave you a piece of life advice is not very nice. Here's some more advice: grow up and stop believing everything Nietzche had to say.
i didn't call you any names, especially the kind you shamelessly put in your post. I should flag you for that or at least alert whoever is moderating these boards. Instead, I'll just ban you from my sight. Farewell.
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I agree 100% with Tyler.
This situation was completely Gabita's fault. She's the one who had unprotected sex & got pregnant. She's the one who waited until FOUR (almost FIVE) months to have the abortion. She's the one who decided to use Bebe instead of other options that were available to her. She's the one who lied again & again - to Bebe & TO HER BEST FRIEND!! She's the one who screwed up the hotel reservation. She's the one who forgot to bring a sheet. Gabita doesn't once thank Otilla - NOT ONCE!!! I can go on & on about Gabita - she is despicable.
I'm not sure why anyone would sympathize with her at all....
As for the sex - it was NOT rape. I see it similar to prostitution. Instead of getting paid money, the girls got paid a service.
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>> Two girls going out of the country for a weekend arouses suspicion?
Possibly you've missed the underlying point that this film is set in communist Romania.
The girls would have needed passes from the state police to board any bus or train to travel to another city *within* the country. The idea that ordinary students could have got passports and visas to travel outside Romania is inconceivable. Just applying would have triggered interrogation by the securitate.
Similarly, any doctor or nurse discovered carrying out abortions would be at least interred, and more likely put to work in forced labour camps.
That's the system, that's the way it "worked", and that's why people like Bebe thrived in that time (not because of anyone's mentality).
Why else do you think the girls behaved the way they did?
Honestly I don't think there's any point trying to converse rationally with this you. I've been civil and have made my points without resorting to name calling. I also find it ironic that most of the words you've used to describe me would be more obviously attributable to you.
Stubborn would be endlessly trying to shove your irrational perspective down everyone else's throats. Stubborn your unwillingness to admit that you were wrong eg that what happened IS rape if not morally then at least legally speaking and your failure to identify a viable alternative, instead you spout out suggestions like 'just go to a hospital' clearly demonstrating that you weren't paying attention when watching the movie a trait you seem to retain when 'engaging' in a forum.
You're right I will not agree with you. I don't believe that they are as culpable as Bebe for their situation. Just because Gabita was too scared to face up to her situation earlier in her pregnancy does not mean she 'deserves' to be raped in exchange for her abortion.
I admit I wasn't sure how restrictive travel would've been communist Romania but in light of measdale's comment what alternative do you suggest now that your previous suggestions 'just go to a hospital' and 'just get out of the country' are not available?
DNFTT!
shareYour posts in this thread are jaw-droppingly mis-guided. Illegal IN ROMANIA, means that you can't just get the abortion in the hospital and just pay a fine! Geez! If you went to a hospital and suggested a termination, you'd probably go directly to jail and have to have the baby. No school, no decent (at least for Ceaucescu's Romania) job, etc. As to other countries, have you heard of the 'Iron Curtain?' It's not like they can get on a jet to Paris, have a termination, and go shopping!
share:D :D :D :D
you really made me laugh with this diddy:
"Was the money they used not enough to get them on a bus and out of the country to have the procedure done. "
Have you had a good look at a map of Europe? Did you know the entire Eastern Europe was communist, so abortions were still illegal, never mind any bus trip...
Another small detail: at the time almost NOBODY got out of the country. You had to be a really highly placed official, celebrity artist or sports person on your way to some big event where you'd help increase the prestige of the country for them to even consider letting you across the border. So no, that was not an option either ...
Any more ideas?
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"I'd rather go to hospital, have an abortion and be arrested than do what the girls did."
Yeah, better get raped and tortured by an entire squad of police officers and spend indefinite time in a jewish-concentration camp like prison than have 5 minutes of sex with a random man. Perfectly logical.
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I'd rather go to hospital, have an abortion and be arrested than do what the girls did. Let's assume the hospital turns them away. Is abortion in other countries illegal? Was the money they used not enough to get them on a bus and out of the country to have the procedure done.The Romanian people were under the control of a communist dictator at that time. The time period this happened was the mid to late 80's. At that time, food, medications, electricity, etc. were rationed. Yes, abortion was highly illegal at that time and was a punishable crime (prison time) for both the one who performed the abortion and the one who had the abortion. (At that time
ok, so i'm pretty sure there were no "official channels" for them to go through. without doing all my homework, i'm pretty sure that contraception and abortion were both illegal in romania at the time. that's kind of a major point in the movie that you seemed to have missed.Exactly. Abortion was highly illegal in Romania at that time. If the individual you were responding to would've paid better attention to the movie, there were several indications that it was a criminal act to have an abortion and/or to perform one.
Like a hospital or an abortion clinic? I know, I know what you're thinking. If they go through official channels there are unfavourable ramifications but it was still an option for starters and secondly, would those ramifications be worse than sleeping with a man you despise to get what you want?
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Tyler said "Whether those alternatives held heavier ramifications is up to debate but I know myself that I wouldn't be able to submit."
Are you saying that 'submitting' is the worst possible thing you can imagine? Perhaps the alternatives were so much worse that by comparison everything else they experienced, although unpleasant, would soon be just an upleasant memory never to be spoken of again. Several times in the movie it was said that this was illegal and those involved would go to jail. I don't know what jails in Romania were like in the 80s but I can imagine that given the choice of a few minutes of coerced sex is better than three years in Romanian prison.
I would daresay your brief experience in a free country has not given you adequate experience of what a totalitarian regime could be like.
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I keep coming back to the fact that one of the girls mentioned that a friend had the procedure done through a woman.
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Why are you asking me all these questions? The movie answers all this, and more. If you still see 'plot holes', well, I can't help you mate. Judging from your responses to people who've tried to help you understand the conditions of Romania at that time, it's clear your mind is made up. The way I see it, it would be completely futile to engage in a discussion on the topic with you. Good day, sir. And I'd stick to Disney.
What's the difference between Santa and Tiger Woods?
Santa quits after 3 Ho's
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lol.
What's the difference between Santa and Tiger Woods?
Santa quits after 3 Ho's
quote [ Like a hospital or an abortion clinic? ] unquote
... Sorry to say this, but you really missed the point of the ENTIRE movie.
... It goes about the '80s in communist Romania, when abortions were ILLEGAL!!!!
There were no such things as abortion clinics, and they did not perform abortions in hospitals.
And even the title of the movie should give you an idea of the countdown situation they are in ... If you missed the scenes when they talk about how advanced Gabita's pregnancy is, and why it is so much more dangerous to have an abortion, as the preg goes further.
That's why that SOB Mr. Bebe makes such a good living out if it: because it's illegal, and he deals with people who are always in a very vulnerable position, in danger of loosing their freedom and even their lives (he performs very delicate procedures in hotel rooms and what not ... !!), not to mention any trace of dignity they might have.
I hate it when people go through life putting on the "victim" mask too, but this really isn't the case. The guy already got a good load of money, but he has to satisfy his sick sexual desires in the process too ... (and yes, it is sick sex when you take advantage of people like that ... )
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Tyler tyler tyler, you have confused "self-confidence" with hubris. The dude certainly abides in shuttered ignorance.
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it's incredible that the tylerdanielblack fellow spent two years replying and managed to sound stupider and stupider as time went by.
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actually "stupider" is a legit word. Look it up smart arse. And I concur with the previous post, you are kinda dumb and self righteous.
you know what sucks the most? When in the middle of an argument you realize you're wrong. But it takes a man to admit it, and you aren't one!
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selma--The real point here is that tylerdanielblack is trolling. Nobody could be that dense and offensive after seeing this movie (even blaming Otilia for letting the pregnancy go on that long, when she clearly was lied to by Gabi on that and other points) without conscious intention.
shareBebe is a liar not so much in fact but on more subtle levels. When he talked about having his ID at reception and the risk he was taking I was assumed it was fake.
But even if his was fake this doesn't mean he would leave it there. Would make more sense to take it. So I didn't get it.
I thought about that myself... but what could be the motive?
I think he's just a "macho man" used to pub arguments over a pint.
Hey buddy, tyler, travel a bit, meet other people, other cultures, smarten the ***k up, it's never too late!
>Like a hospital or an abortion clinic? I know, I know what you're thinking. If they go through official channels there are unfavourable ramifications but it was still an option for starters and secondly, would those ramifications be worse than sleeping with a man you despise to get what you want?
unfavorable ramifications? life in prison and first degree relatives losing their jobs for being from a tainted family. unfavorable ramifications sounds a little soft.
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I feel its as likely Bebe was just wanting to get out of there and screwed up. He wasn't use to leaving his ID at the other Hotels he preferred and I could see the character kicking himself when he remembered leaving it.
I didn't see anything to infer the ID was fake. False ID would be a huge NO NO in a Police State and that is an important aspect of the story Christian Mungiu, the filmmaker, was trying to tell, Romania was a dictatorship.
There wasn't any reason at that point NOT pick up his ID and leaving behing any false identification would draw attention from the Police, who would pressure the women to learn who their friend was AND what he had to hide.
I'd admit my feelings on this are just as subjective.
“To accept injustice is cowardice.” ---Gandhi
In an interview, the director says that he always includes in his script little things that happen every day which aren't necessarily linked to the main story. He also says that he likes to leave some things open to interpretation. One example he gives in this interview is precisely Bebe's forgetting or leaving his ID at the hotel; the director doesn't offer any explanation. He also mentions Otilia's taking the knife out of Bebe's suitcase as another of these little details that are never resolved in the movie. Perhaps they have no further meaning, perhaps it's up to each viewer to decide if they have or not. But, come think of it, those things happen in reality, and they don't necessarily have any influence in how the "main story" ends up... Bebe might have forgotten his ID because it can happen to anyone really, or perhaps it's a fake ID and he didn't care about it... Otilia might have taken the knife in case she had to defend herself and Gabita against Bebe, but then never needed to use it or forgot about it... Who knows.
shareThe knife would make a nice weapon against Bebe's picture taken from the forgotten ID and put on the head of a voodoo doll.
Now seriously, here are a few things that were out of question in Ceausescu's Romania:
- legally get ANY kind of contraceptives (condoms or pills) or abortion, unless you belonged to the privileged caste;
- fake IDs, unless they were fabricated for the regime's purpose;
- successfully apply for a passport and get one in less than a year, unless, again, you were...
- purchase imported, good quality shampoos or soaps (they even wash their hair with the soap they buy together and share) from the normal, legal channels;
- imported jeans (although you see everybody there wearing them);
- imported cigarettes (although everybody seems to only smoke Marlboro, Kent, or the Yugoslav brand Vikend).
Pretty much all the real life was beyond legality, and I believe under an oppressive regime it should be as such. Think of the people e-mailing in Iran or in today's China. Yes, they are breaking the law. No, they can't change the law. It is after all a shared burden, and that was the reason everybody sighed in relief the day Ceausescu was gone.
Now I see that someone here has discussed the girls' guilt. Sadly, I see here a confusion with what all those college students are doing in the Brazilian film "Tropa de elite": trafficking drugs. Yes, these youngsters are hypocrite from a certain point of view, they come from lower social layers and cater to the upper class, who can afford these drugs. But there was not even such a thing in Ceausescu's Romania, there was not an exchange between the two classes, only oppression existed (actually we are dealing here with just the middle class, students and Bebe alike, with a few glimpses from the lower class - Gabita's dad - and the upper class - Adi's parents and family friends). Gabita and Otilia had to their best to keep appearances and eventually lead a BAD life, as opposed to an impossible one. At least the bad life was just normal, after all. Almost everybody was a "survivor" back then. Some dissidents were surprised to find out that their very own spouse was informing the Securitate about their actions. Everybody was a potential enemy, unless they could secure an "island" of friendship, or delude themselves they did. This friendship transcends the so-called "guanxi" system practiced everywhere in places with scarce resources under oppression - I give you eggs or meat (that was tough!), you give me oranges and bananas (extremely rare in those times), and then you know someone who can find me a forbidden book, and I can also get a VCR for a friend of yours for less than the price of a car (yes, that was the cost back in those days), and so forth, by now you got the idea.
These ideas, the "art of survival" and the theme of friendship are precisely two of the core meanings of this film. They are both reflected in the final scene. The girls are downstairs in the lousy restaurant room, listening to some lousy music and eating some lousy food, but the story they have just lived (difficult to be overcome and it will leave scars, Otilia knows this already since she just couldn't get comfort from the man who should never hear what happened to her, and who knows if she'll ever be capable to see him again as before; she'll always see making love to him with fear) is, or they wish it should by now only be a specter in their (so far near) past.
I hear there's a little DVD box with Mungiu's first full-length film, Occident, about post-communist society (when these wounds were still far from being healed)plus flash-backs about what was someone risking when attempting to cross the border illegally; and Memories From The Golden Age, dealing again with stories from the communist years. Maybe we should talk about these films now, since they complete the picture.
With the constant exchanging of IDs throughout the film and the strict manner with which it is demanded, one can argue that by leaving his card behind (which may or may not be a fake one), Mr. Bebe leaves his identity behind, i.e. he leaves his humanity.
If we're also to assume that he's performed numerous abortions, then for every single time he leaves the building, he leaves a peace of himself as a reminder (a constant, shameful memento). Remember, he will only extract if he's allowed to insert.
Also notice that Otilia forgets her ID card towards the end (which she always had ready in hand towards the beginning). She's also lost a part of her identity, and therefore a sense of her humanity.
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