MovieChat Forums > Love and Other Impossible Pursuits (2010) Discussion > Both Carolyn AND Emilia were in the wron...

Both Carolyn AND Emilia were in the wrong!

posted 13 years ago by RubyRidingHood
76 replies | jump to latest

Yes, Emilia had an affair with Jack and broke up his marriage to Carolyn, even though it's alluded to the fact that Jack was not happy with Carolyn long before he met Emilia. Yes, Emilia is the other woman and she was pretty mean to William at times, and resented him. But you know what? Carolyn isn't so perfect herself. Aside from being controlling about William and poisoning him against his father and stepmother (which I understand because of the affair), Carolyn had no right to say that Isabelle "wasn't a person". That was really effed up. Isabelle was an innocent baby. It wasn't her fault what happened in Carolyn's marriage to Jack, she didn't choose her parents. Carolyn telling that to William was out of line, especially her being an OBGYN. Would she tell a patient that? It really made me question her ethics. But anyway, both of them were bad in their own ways.

I sometimes don't read the bottom of posts because I think it's a signature.

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

lol

1. If you aren't happy with your marriage you WORK ON IT. Unzipping your pants for some woman who has ZERO RESPECT for MARRIAGE isn't going to make you any happier in the LONG RUN

2. Carolyn's MARRIAGE WAS RAPED by Emilia. Saying Emilia wasn't a person under the circumstances was understandable.

Emilia attacked and destroyed an innocent family.

Yes Jack and Carolyn had a LOT of work to do to repair things, but Emilia didn't do ANYTHING to harm that family. She raped that marriage top to bottom and showed zero remorse for it.

[–] RubyRidingHood 13 years ago

Saying Emilia wasn't a person under the circumstances was understandable.

Re-read what I wrote. Carolyn didn't say that EMILIA wasn't a person. She said that ISABELLE (EMILIA'S BABY) wasn't a person, because according to Jewish law she hadn't lived a full 8 days. Granted Emilia was in the wrong for what she did to the family, I still think Carolyn didn't have to tell William that his dead baby sister wasn't actually a person. And then for William to tell that to Emilia was even worse.

I sometimes don't read the bottom of posts because I think it's a signature.

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

Yes I mixed the names up... I knew what you were saying.

The point is Emilia started all this nonsense by getting involved with her husband.

If the WIFE of the MAN she had SEX with tells her son that the BABY that resulted from their infidelity isnt' a person that's unfortunate, but I really don't feel for Emilia in that situation at all.

She has any horrible word coming to her that Carolyn can dig up in this sorry situation.

The fact is that Jack and Emilia created the situation of that film, NOT Carolyn, she's just an unfortunate casualty who had NO SAY in the matter.

Jack and Emilia conspired IN SECRET to DESTROY the marriage of Carolyn and Jack.

Sorry, but Carolyn is gonna be mean about that. I don't blame her one bit.

Was it constructive? No.

Was it educative? No.

But I don't blame Carolyn for doing it one damn bit.

If some creep slept with my wife I am not about to be sending any kindnesses his way either.

It's not constructive, but when you have a situation where two people unilaterally make a DECISION in SECRET that SERIOUSLY DERAILS an ENTIRE FAMILY you are gonna get some stones thrown at you.

They asked for it.

It aint' pretty, but they had it coming.

Was it a low blow?

Not any sleazier than sleeping with another woman's husband and destroying a marriage.

Sorry, but Emilia showed NO REMORSE for derailing that marriage in that ENTIRE FILM.

Carolyn showed MUCH MORE remorse for what she said.

And after all, the only thing Carolyn did was SAY something mean.

You want to compare that to trashing someone else's marriage of what fifteen years?

No comparison.

Destroying a marriage that took ten or fifteen years to build is a LOT worse than simply telling someone their dead baby isn't a person.

Neither is pretty, both are petty... but the former is FAR MORE DESTRUCTIVE.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

Emeila never forced Jack to cheat on his wife, she had not loyalty to Carolyn. The destruction of Jack's marriage is on him entirely. If a woman does not believe in the constitution of marriage than you can't push your moral beliefs on someone else. Caroline was plenty terrible to Emelia in the movie, saying many things that were uncalled her and incredibly immature. She was setting a terrible example for her son. Carolynn needed to be an adult and move on and come to terms with what happened with her marriage and understand that it wasn't working anyway and was probably going to end soon- affair or not. They were absolutely "even", Carolynn was probably in worse in some cases.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

If a woman does not believe in the constitution of marriage than you can't push your moral beliefs on someone else

This is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my entire life.

This logic justifies anyone destroying anything that belongs to anyone else.

I don't like new cars. So I can KEY ONE anytime I like right? Then it's not new anymore.

Or is THAT forcing MY BELIEFS on the CAR OWNER hunh?

Stupid stupid stupid.

What YOU BELIEVE is valuable in life you are free to pursue ONLY IF you RESPECT the RIGHT of OTHERS to pursue what THEY believe.

Carolyn WAS pursuing a marriage with Jack.

Emilia DISRESPECTED THAT.

End of Argument.

Your logic is childish and clumsy at best as demonstrated above. MORAL RELATIVISM does NOT FUNCTION. Never DID, never WILL. It's flawed logic. High school students can find the error in your reasoning. How old are you?

Think your thoughts through why don't you...

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

No it is not ridiculous if you were slightly more open minded and not stuck in your old ways of looking at things. I'm talking morals here not destroying people's property. Husband's are not someone's property. Not to mention I'm sure you could get into legal trouble for destroying someone's property.

And you can't steal someone's husband/wife, they usually go willingly. If they couldn't resist temptation than that is their fault. Emelia had no loyalty to Carolyn, Jack did. Lets not misplace our anger here.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

No it is not ridiculous if you were slightly more open minded and not stuck in your old ways of looking at things. I'm talking morals here not destroying people's property. Husband's are not someone's property. Not to mention I'm sure you could get into legal trouble for destroying someone's property.

lol

You don't think destruction of someone's property is morally offensive? LOL

OK, I am gonna go key your car and burn your home down and see how morally UNOFFENDED you are at my actions. lol

Stupid stupid stupid.

And you can't steal someone's husband/wife, they usually go willingly. If they couldn't resist temptation than that is their fault. Emelia had no loyalty to Carolyn, Jack did. Lets not misplace our anger here.

Can't resist temptation?

consider the following…

What if you knew that one of your children would be killed if you had an affair. Would you still do it? I highly suspect the answer is “no.” Therefore, what you are really saying is that the urge CAN be controlled you just chose not to prioritize it.

LOL

Can't resist temptation my ass.

Smarten up, I say it again. Your logic is stupid stupid stupid.

I have no problem with someone ending a bad marriage. But you end the marriage first (after trying to fix it of course), THEN you start a relationship with someone else.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

Where was I ever defending Jack, my god you didn't even read it. I was saying IF Jack couldn't resist temptation than it was HIS problem, NOT EMEILA'S. He was married, he had the loyalty to his wife. EMEILA DID NOT.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

Where was I ever defending Jack, my god you didn't even read it. I was saying IF Jack couldn't resist temptation than it was HIS problem, NOT EMEILA'S. He was married, he had the loyalty to his wife. EMEILA DID NOT.

I never said you were defending Jack. lol

More straw men.

Emelia did NOT resist the temptation to TRASH a MARRIAGE that was NONE OF HER BUSINESS to END.

If Jack and Carolynne are going to succeed or fail that is THEIR CHOICE, NOT the choice of Emelia or ANY THIRD PARTY.

You keep sidestepping how disrespectful it is to trash someone's marriage and keep HIDING behind this "she had no loyalty to Carolynne" position.

It's a FLAWED position. You can keep dragging it out but it's NOT going to help your case. lol

stupid stupid stupid.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

I think it's rather sad that you have to reduce yourself to insults and "lol" which are incredibly catty, instead of seeing someone else's position.

Emelia did not trash the marriage, she didn't force Jack to cheat. Jack ruined it completely all on his own. You can't blame the mistress especially because yes she had to loyalty to the wife, that isn't flawed it is actually quite logically. I never said Emeila is an angel but it/s very ridiculous for people to misplace their anger on someone that yes had no loyalty to you and no obligation to you.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

I think it's rather sad that you have to reduce yourself to insults and "lol" which are incredibly catty, instead of seeing someone else's position.

LOL

I AM using lols at your arguments yes. But I am ALSO logically REFUTING them. YOU just don't like having your arguments reduced to dust. lol

Emelia did not trash the marriage,

Yes, Emelia AND Jack chose to trash the marriage of Jack and Carolynne. They BOTH made conscious choices that led to the demise of that union - BOTH OF THEM. Emelia is not PET that Jack just carried around in a box. Emelia deliberately and knowingly got involved as a third party into someone else's marriage and did considerable damage as did Jack. Enough damage to result in the end of that union.

You are just outright LYING now.

she didn't force Jack to cheat.

Straw Man again. No one said Emelia forced Jack to do anything. They BOTH were consciously conspiring in secret to destroy the marriage of Jack and Carolynne. The fact that she didn't "force" Jack does not invalidate her deliberate involvement.

Jack ruined it completely all on his own.

Now you are just outright lying. Emelia AND Jack were involved in secret. Jack didn't just do it all on his own Emelia WAS there for the affair, she WAS there for the sex, she WAS there getting PREGNANT with the baby of ANOTHER MAN.

Stop lying and address the facts of the film. You are getting really desperate now and it's showing.

You can't blame the mistress

? LOL

Of course I can blame BOTH of them. I can hold them both 50% responsible. They were BOTH there and BOTH responsible.

You are just lying now.

especially because yes she had to loyalty to the wife,

This is again a straw man and you are shifting the argument. I never said she was disloyal to Caroynne I said she was disrespecting their home, their marriage, and their family getting involved with a married man.

You can use your argument to destroy anything that anyone is trying to create or build. The fact that a person does not explicitly commit to honoring someone else's marriage does not give them the right to disrespect it.

I don't explicitly commit to not burning someone's home down. That does NOT mean I have any right to do so.

You really are grasping now.

that isn't flawed it is actually quite logically.

Uh... no. Not to anyone with grade eight level math skills or higher. You sidestep, shift blame, and use straw man all over this thread. You refuse to honor any position you take or accept facts. You even outright LIE now to hold to a position that's not defensible.

I never said Emeila is an angel

More Straw Man. No one here said anything about her being an angel. The fact that she disrespected a home, a family, and a marriage to the point of it's termination proves pretty clearly what kind of character she is.

You just keep making excuses for her. It's getting pretty pathetic now.

but it/s very ridiculous for people to misplace their anger

There's no anger here, it's disgust. And I am not misplacing anything. I AM disgusted at people who disrespect marriages to the degree Emelia does.

on someone that yes had no loyalty to you and no obligation to you.

Back to the loyalty again.

Look, I have NO loyalty to my next door neighbor either, but that does not mean I have the right to burn his home down.

Loyalty is IRRELEVANT, DISRESPECTING other peoples homes, marriages, and families is the argument I have made from square ONE here and you just KEEP SIDESTEPPING it and hiding behind this loyalty argument.

Loyalty is a STRAW MAN. Do you know what a Straw Man is?

Loyalty is NOT a point of debate here, it never was. NO ONE suggested Emelia was ever disloyal to Carolyne. You are just throwing around Straw Men YET AGAIN.

[–] king_maker_1428 11 years ago

Uh no...

BOTH Emelia AND Jack trashed that marriage in SECRET without input from Carolyn at all... Without her even KNOWING.

Don't give me this it's all Jack's fault, or it's all Emelia's fault.. they BOTH made TERRIBLE choices.. BOTH of them. What a pathetic argument to suggest it's only one OR the other of them at fault. They BOTH willingly contributed to the mess that resulted. That's so obvious a two year old can spot it.

And no it's not "logically" that she had any loyalty at all.

No one is misplacing anger here, I am assigning BLAME. It rests at BOTH of their feet.

Emelia's behavior is not a betrayal, no one said it was, that's a straw man. Her behavior IS EXTREMELY DISRESPECTFUL to someone else's marriage and family.

I don't expect loyalty from people I just meet, but I DO expect respect whether they know me or not. I extend the same to others.

I certainly would not be trashing the home, family, and marriage of anyone I knew OR didn't know... out of RESPECT for them as people.

This has nothing to do with loyalty, that's just a straw man of yours. RESPECT is the behavior at issue here.

Just because you don't know someone, that does not give you the right to violate their marriage.

And as far as obligation. I maintain that EVERY person has an obligation to RESPECT every other person, whether they know them or not.

Jack behaves disloyally AND disrespectfully, Emelia behaves disrespectfully.

It's that cut and dry.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

And you can't steal someone's husband/wife, they usually go willingly. If they couldn't resist temptation than that is their fault. Emelia had no loyalty to Carolyn, Jack did. Lets not misplace our anger here.

More holes.

1. First, I am not suggesting Emelia STOLE Jack. I am suggesting that she is a HOME-WRECKER.

She deliberately and knowingly entered into the marriage of Carolyn and Jack and conspired to trash it.

This is not much different from Burning down someone's home or Destroying their car.

She saw something that was not hers (a marriage she was NOT a member of), DESTROYED that marriage, and then proceeded to create one of her own that ended up failing.

This is not much different from seeing a House that is NOT yours, BURNING it DOWN, and then building your own house on that same lot.

It's offensive to say the least.

2. And again I say Jack COULD have resisted temptation, as could have Emelia, you are just romanticizing their disrespectful behavior.

3. No, Emelia did not have any "loyalty" to Carolyne, but she did DISRESPECT Carolyne and at the TIME of the AFFAIR Carolyn had done NOTHING disrespectful to Emelia AT ALL. She even ALLOWED Emelia into her HOME as a GUEST at her PARTY.

I never said anything about loyalty with Emelia was amiss, Emelia was EGREGIOUSLY DISRESPECTFUL to an INNOCENT WOMAN who had done NOTHING TO HER.

4. Misplaced anger? lol

You are throwing straw men all over this thread. I'm not mad I think its funny. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. lol

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

No it is not ridiculous if you were slightly more open minded and not stuck in your old ways of looking at things.

Old ways? lol

Since when did infidelity because a socially acceptable behavior in america? lol

Since when is lying to your wife, having sex in secret, and abandoning your son and wife for another woman "open minded" behavior? lol

Man I can't stop laughing.. lol

It's not. Never was, never will be.

It's selfish, stupid, and highly destructive.

You just saw a movie that made you cry and are romanticizing something terribly sleazy...

Infidelity is stupid stupid stupid.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

How the hell am I romantizing it?

You are stuck in your ways because you don't see any other side of it. I can tell by your responses you are hardly even reading carefully.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

How the hell am I romantizing it?

You are stuck in your ways because you don't see any other side of it. I can tell by your responses you are hardly even reading carefully.

"can't resist temptation" ?? lol

that sounds like a freakin hallmark card. It sounds like some cheesy love song from a Disney movie.

You wait until a third party trashes your marriage step by step, month by month, in SECRET.

You won't be singing these cheesy songs then.

You are young and foolish and you will learn the hard way.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

No, I'm not young or foolish. If I was cheated on I would be angry at my husband entirely, I would never behave the way Carolynn did, not in anyway shape or form. Of course I wouldn't welcome Emeila into my life with open arms but I wouldn't be constantly bittering with her either.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

No, I'm not young or foolish.

Throwing around Straw Men to refute arguments?

Ya, you are young and foolish or old and REALLY stupid. I am throwing you a bone here ... you'd be wise to take it.

If I was cheated on I would be angry at my husband entirely,

Sure, you would invite over for tea the woman who mounted your husband in some sleazy hotel while you were home raising his children. You'd become best friends I'm sure.

LOL

I would never behave the way Carolynn did, not in anyway shape or form.

You are shifting the argument now. I have been attacking Emelia and now you just shift things to how terrible Carolynne behaves AFTER she had her marriage, home, and family destroyed....Hmm... you think Carolynne's hurtful behavior to Emelia might have had SOMETHING to do with Emelia's mounting her husband in some sleazy hotel behind her back? lol

Geeeeeeeee I wonder...

Of course I wouldn't welcome Emeila into my life with open arms but I wouldn't be constantly bittering with her either.

Emelia INJECTED herself into Carolyne's life. Carolyne really had no CHOICE but to tolerate her. And she managed considerably WELL considering all the damage Emelia did to a woman that did NOTHING to her AT ALL before Emelia destroyed her home and family.

You keep sidestepping the fact that Emelia attacked Carolyne's home. Carolyne did NOTHING to provoke that. NOTHING.

[–] agentalize 13 years ago

I have never commented on here but I just watched this film and it's funny because when I caught it on TV I was late and totally missed the flashback on the affair and saw the movie as if Emelia was just the new wife to a divorced man whose ex-eife was extremely jealous and disgusting. Then I watched it from the beginning online and saw the backstory to Emelia and Jack's relationship. And I have to be honest it did not in any way change my feelings towards any of the characters. It only SOMEWHAT explained the psychotic behavior of Carolyn but it in NO WAY gave her a pass.

See I am happy that I saw this movie the way I did, because it allowed me to focus on the truly most important character in this film without bais. Isabelle. That should have been the name of this movie. I swear reading the comments, you... WGF, have posted all over this thread, lead me to believe that you are a bitter, hateful human being, who someone hurt, just like Carolyn because only someone as warped and twisted as her could ATTEMPT (because you never could) to JUSTIFY her actions.

Isabelle was an innocent baby, a child, as was William. The same way Emelia had no right to take her frustrations out on William, as he was clearly afraid of dissapointing and being manipulated by his INSANE mother, it was in turn completely unfair and horrible for Carolyn to take out her anger towards Emelia on Isabelle and her memory. For you to say (in another post) that it was simply "a low blow" that you can understand, for her to say that Isabelle was "not a person" makes me question your sanity.

And to defend the point that Carolyn was SICK and beyond in the WRONG...is not to defend Emelia. It's to defend ISABELLLE and WILLIAM, the two innocents in the situation. Which I think was the message of the movie. How easily the INNOCENT parties are screwed over and made to hurt and be pawns, in the selfish pursuit of revenge or retaliation. If you cannot understand why her saying nasty things about ISABELLE was wrong (and still think it's "understandable" because ISABELLE was "conceived out of adultery" as if she were some cursed vile thing SMH) How about....it's WRONG because it was Carolyn's sons sister.

No matter the circumstances surrounding her birth you can't change that fact and even little William was smart enough to recognize that hence the line at the end in the limo "You will always be my sister's mother" Carolyn's son was grieving his sister and she didn't have enough love for son who she claimed to have so much care and concern for the whole effing movie, to support him in his grief. Instead she took the opportunity to make a sick joke about his dead sibling having not even been a PERSON who didn't deserve a FUNERAL! All the hurt in the world doesn't justify that. Carolyn's husband cheated on her, Emelie broke up her marriage, ISABELLE did nothing to her and it's not like it was Emelies child from some other man that she attacked it was her own sons sister that was what made it SICK.

If you can't understand that your just one track minded and as I said earlier probably bitter about a personal situation of your own. To sit on this board debating infidelity, defending grown adults who are all effed up and NOT without sin while trying to sidestep the REAL CRIME AND BETRAYAL against these innocent kids is sad. Carolyn was borderline abusive to William. Putting him in the middle, forcing him to hate someone who did her wrong and not him, just like Emelie hated her father for what he did to her Mom...that was abuse and the hypocrisy of her saying the Emelie was the one who couldn't be trusted around children. HA ! And OBGYN who revels in the death of children for her own personal revenge and then doesn't skip a beat telling her ex that SHE'S preggo now and claims to have been inspired by the birth of their child? That was as twisted as Emelie trying to be her damn friend at the party when she knew she wanted her husband. The hypocrisy amongst all the adults...was OBVIOUS and INTENTION and ppl like you missed it.

OH and BTW....I think EMELIE handles Carolyn's *beep* pretty damn well herself. Because I would've gotten physical with the bitch immediately after hearing what she said about my dead child. But Emelie knew deep down she was wrong and so she put up with it. But noone should put up with that. HURT PEOPLE....like to HURT PEOPLE and that's Carolyn in a nutshell. As well as Emelie. Because she was hurt by her father and what he did to HER family. That's the real moral of this story. HURT PPL...HURT PPL. And the innocent civilians are always the saddest casualties in any war!

And for all of you saying "This movie tries to make you feel bad for a home wrecker just because her baby died" SMH You all failed the "I have a conscious and I'm a sane human being" test. Congrats you are all socio paths. You should always feel bad when a baby loses their life. When a mother or father loses her child and a kid loses him sister period.

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

Ho hum another person sidestepping infidelity completely. lol

Nice try, but to just hack on Carolyne and not even mention anything being wrong with infidelity your post is blatantly uninformed on the matter.

Carolyne was abusive to William?

Give me a break.

As well as Emelie. Because she was hurt by her father and what he did to HER family

Oh and what Emilia did to Carolyne's family didn't hurt anyone?

Give me a break.

[–] Samantha_Michelle 12 years ago

After reading all of your comments on this thread, and then on this board for the movie, I have to say that you are, without a doubt, out of your mind. Seriously. That's the only explanation that makes sense.

Samantha Michelle
(http://timed.tumblr.com)

[–] king_maker_1428 12 years ago

More ad hominem attacks...

Does no one around here know how to argue a case properly?

[–] karmagnasoni 11 years ago

I am agree with Samantha

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

you are hardly even reading carefully.

I am reading every word. You just don't know how to argue a case yet.

You need to learn how to structure an argument.

You are just throwing straw men around like a child here.

My guess is you don't even know what a straw man IS.

I have read a LOT more about these subjects than you have, and I have clearly lived more YEARS than you have.

YOU have some "reading" to do... you need to do that "carefully" and then come back here and try again.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

No you are not because you are not getting the simple notation of a phrase or metaphor. That doesn't seem too educated to me. You constantly say "I never said Emeila stole him" "Resist Temptation LOL!". Obviously people infer things from what your saying even if you don't blantantly say them and sometimes people use *gasp* metaphors. And yes I am very good at trying my hardest to be the mature and respectful one while you seem fail at that task, and probably have no business posting here if you write people off for having a differing opinion than you.

And it doesn't if you read a lot about these subjects? So what? That doesn't mean that your opinion is more valid than mine or anyone else's. I'm pretty sure you need to be exposed to one or two stories on the matter to form an opinion. It's not like you need to be certified in the area to be able to speak on it.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

No you are not because you are not getting the simple notation of a phrase or metaphor. That doesn't seem too educated to me. You constantly say "I never said Emeila stole him" "Resist Temptation LOL!". Obviously people infer things from what your saying even if you don't blantantly say them and sometimes people use *gasp* metaphors. And yes I am very good at trying my hardest to be the mature and respectful one while you seem fail at that task, and probably have no business posting here if you write people off for having a differing opinion than you.

I am not writing YOU Off I am REFUTING an ARGUMENT. YOUR argument. Do you know what the word REFUTATION MEANS?

You have yet to use a single metaphor. You have used sample scenarios, but NO metaphors. Do you not know what metaphor means either?

And it doesn't if you read a lot about these subjects? So what? That doesn't mean that your opinion is more valid than mine or anyone else's. I'm pretty sure you need to be exposed to one or two stories on the matter to form an opinion. It's not like you need to be certified in the area to be able to speak on it.

The fact that I have read a lot more than you on this subject does not mean my opinion is more valid no. It means I have my FACTS STRAIGHT and you don't.

You don't need to be certified in the area know. But you SHOULD know at the very least what a freakin straw man is so you stop wasting OUR TIME on them.

I have read enough to be able to tap dance around your arguments and refute them without any mental strain at all.

I'm sure there are areas you are familiar with that I am not. But you don't see me making excuses and throwing straw men about on those topics. I KNOW BETTER.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

It means I have my FACTS STRAIGHT and you don't.

What does that even mean? We are talking about our feelings and opinions on the situation. Facts have nothing to do with it and "getting them straight" is irrelevant.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

What does that even mean? We are talking about our feelings and opinions on the situation. Facts have nothing to do with it and "getting them straight" is irrelevant.

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

YOU are talking about your feelings. I am arguing factually. You even lie outright. lol

Getting facts straight isn't relevant?

LOL

How OLD ARE you anyways? lol

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

What the hell are you even talking about? My god, you are definately the most ironic poster I have ever engaged with. I'm 20 and I know how to conduct myself in a respect manner.

Opinions are not facts, They are thoughts and feelings. What do facts have anything to do with this? You have hardly added anything besides your own opinions and perpsective on the matter.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

What the hell are you even talking about? My god, you are definately the most ironic poster I have ever engaged with. I'm 20 and I know how to conduct myself in a respect manner.

Opinions are not facts, They are thoughts and feelings. What do facts have anything to do with this? You have hardly added anything besides your own opinions and perpsective on the matter.

You write like you are twelve.

YOU may know how to conduct yourself in a respectful manner. Emelia does NOT.

More straw men here : NO ONE said opinions are facts. LOL

And for the record an opinion is not a "feeling"

Fear is a feeling, rage, embarrassment, are feelings. Opinions aren't "feelings"

Fact : Emelia acts of her own choice to get involved with a married man.

Fact : Jack acts of his own choice to get involved with a co-worker in secret.

Fact : Carolynne's input was NOT sought out on this DESPITE the SERIOUS IMPACT this would have on her marriage, home, and famly.

THOSE are FACTS. NOT "feelings", but FACTS.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

I write like I'm 12? More low blows and you have the the gall to call me immature? Funny as you haven't shared your age...

Yes people use facts to base opinions on. You said that I wasn't using facts, I was using opinions, while YOU WERE USING FACTS. Which does not make any sense because everyone used facts to base opinions on, even you. Opinions are what you "feel" about the situation, your thoughts. And I wasn't omitting any facts or denying any facts.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

Carolynn needed to be an adult and move on

LOL

Seriously?

You dig THAT up after Emelia had SEX with Carolyn's husband?

You think CAROLYN needs to be an adult and move on?

WHY THE HELL DIDN'T EMELIA BE AN ADULT AND MOVE ON instead of pursuing JACK in the FREAKIN FIRST PLACE?

Smarten up.

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

Carolynn needed to be an adult and move on and come to terms with what happened with her marriage and understand that it wasn't working anyway and was probably going to end soon- affair or not

And I challenge again that is the decision of Carolynn and Jack to decide as a COUPLE... It was NOT Emelia's BUSINESS to DECIDE when someone ELSE's MARRIAGE was OVER.

Would YOU be OKAY with ME walking into YOUR HOME and TELLING YOU that it's TIME for YOU TO MOVE?

Not bloody likely...

you really are making some clumsy arguments here... my nephew can spot the flaws in your logic and he's in grade eight. lol

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

Wow, you do know that you can edit your posts instead of making more and more. I was delivering my point without getting nasty to you or trying to throw around insults. You however are much older than me and you really are not open to other people's ideas, instead you take them rather personally and scoff at them. It's a bit silly and not really worth engaging in. Although I skimmed through, I will correct a few things that I did see. I was mainly saying that cheating is solely a moral thing, destroying someone's property can get you into legal trouble and the two are not comparable. And the whole "Emeila did/didn't steal Jack" was obviously just a phrase or a metaphor.

I actually used to be closed minded on this very topic but someone your age or maybe even older pointed this very point out to me and it was refreshing. So obviously it isn't something only high school age or younger would agree with.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

I was mainly saying that cheating is solely a moral thing, destroying someone's property can get you into legal trouble and the two are not comparable. And the whole "Emeila did/didn't steal Jack" was obviously just a phrase or a metaphor.

LOL

Clearly you aren't that familiar with the law. Laws are and were desiged with the express purpose of ensuring people ACT ETHICALLY.

The history of law (which I have read several books on) has DRAWN MAINLY FROM texts of ETHICS from Philosophy professors specializing in Law and Ethics.

Cheating is NOT just a moral thing. It's a practical thing. It destroys marriages, homes, and families.

Not to mention if you bothered to do proper research you would know that less than 2.5% of relationships borne of infidelity last long term. Over 97% FAIL.

Lastly, there ARE STATES in the USA where infidelity CAN get you into legal trouble, North Carolina being one of them. Third party marriage tampering IS ILLEGAL in some states in the USA as well as other countries in the world.

Do your research.

I actually used to be closed minded on this very topic but someone your age or maybe even older pointed this very point out to me and it was refreshing. So obviously it isn't something only high school age or younger would agree with.

LOL You think you are open minded? You are uneducated on this subject and terribly naieve is what you are. Your logic is FULL of HOLES an EIGHT GRADER can spot. And the fact that someone else my age is as uneducated on the subjects of law, infidelity, or marriage does NOT make your point any stronger either. lol

People in HIGH SCHOOL don't know JACK about MARRIAGE.. they are NOT MARRIED. lol

Stupid stupid stupid.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

I'm not going to do my research just to debate with someone on IMDB.com. Let's not take things all that seriously. I'm very open minded, it doesn't matter that we have differing opinions, that's what IMDB boards for for, I honestly don't know why you even bother posting, just to feel big and scoff at people that are younger than you. Does that really make you feel good about yourself. Just because we thinking about cheating differently doesn't make one opinion less valid.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

I'm not going to do my research just to debate with someone on IMDB.com. Let's not take things all that seriously. I'm very open minded, it doesn't matter that we have differing opinions, that's what IMDB boards for for, I honestly don't know why you even bother posting, just to feel big and scoff at people that are younger than you. Does that really make you feel good about yourself. Just because we thinking about cheating differently doesn't make one opinion less valid.

lol

OK, at least you admit you haven't done the research and don't know what you're talking about.

You aren't open minded, you are naieve.

Just because we thinking about cheating differently doesn't make one opinion less valid.

Do you even see what you typed there?

You are thinking about CHEATING differently. Sorry, but cheating is DEFINITIVELY a BAD thing to do. And they BOTH cheated Carolynne out of a marriage, a home, and a family that she worked hard to build over many years.

I can cheat on an exam too and try to argue that I am "open-minded" but the prof is still going to give me an F. lol

I can think about serial killing differently, that does not make my argument carry much weight.

A VALID opinion is an opinion devoid of contradiction.

Read a book okay?

Your opinion is no more or less valid than the strength of your inferences and the truth or falsity of each premise.

Your argument's weight is based on its content. It IS inferior to an argument with stronger content.

You need to READ and EDUCATE yourself to build that content.

Heck. You don't like having your arguments destroyed that you just throw together in seconds without a thought to them. I can't imagine how OUTRAGED you would be if someone trashed your marriage that you spent ten or fifteen years building.

lol

Kinda hypocritical for you to be so defensive about your arguments getting trashed, but you are perfecly OK with people trashing marriages.

Why are your straw man arguments so damn precious but the institution of marriage gets no respect from you at all? lol

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

I was never getting defensive, I am expressing myself very maturely especially compared to how you are expressing yourself. Again it has nothing to do with "being educated on the matter". It is opinions and feelings. I don't need to research cheating or divorced couples to form an opinion on the matter. You are the one writing someone off on being naive and uneducated and someone that doesn't "do their research" and I am trying to have an actual conversation without throwing around insults or jabs. What exactly does that make you? You are certainly not open minded, you are borderline twisting my words.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

I was never getting defensive, I am expressing myself very maturely especially compared to how you are expressing yourself. Again it has nothing to do with "being educated on the matter". It is opinions and feelings. I don't need to research cheating or divorced couples to form an opinion on the matter.

Yup, you are not resorting to laughter.

But your ARGUMENTS are CHILDISH. Straw men everywhere, you IGNORE a point when i have one and then CHANGE THE SUBJECT to avoid admitting it. lol

Very mature don't you think?

It is not "opinions and feelings" sorry to say. This is the real world and being educated on the facts DOES make a difference when you are in a debate.

Apparently you have so little education you actually think you can argue about something UNINFORMED. lol

Correction. You an argue about something while uninformed but

a. you look like a fool
b. you end up hurt at your ignorance being exposed by your opponent
c. you dont' make a dent in your opponents position

so, if you want to keep arguing about something without referencing any facts and remaining uninformed on the subject matter go right ahead... abc will keep on coming at you at light speed.

lol

You are the one writing someone off on being naive and uneducated and someone that doesn't "do their research" and I am trying to have an actual conversation without throwing around insults or jabs. What exactly does that make you? You are certainly not open minded, you are borderline twisting my words.

It's not an insult that you are uninformed and uneducated on this subject. It's a fact. You've already admitted it.

NOW you are trying to argue that it's not important.

Sure. Lets argue about capital punishment without any facts or information about the history of its' use in state law. lol

Sure, lets argue about religion without even having read the bible. lol

Very constructive don't you think? lol

To MONKEYS.

I am not twisting your words, you are just making yourself look like a foolish girl who isnt' even in high school yet.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

Yes, I will say it again. I can form an opinion on the ethics of cheating without adding facts. What the hell kind of facts would matter in this? What exactly am I uninformed about? I have understood the concept of cheating and broken home etc etc for quite a number of years now. I'm seriously asking because I don't need to know statistics to form an opinion on how I FEEL about something. Stats are more inaccurate than people are led to believe anyway. FEELINGS hardly have anything to do with FACTS. I'm quite sure OPINIONS and FACTS are actually two different things. Just because I disagree with you and honestly cannot get past how arrogant you are to actually want to pick apart everything you are saying because it is quite tiresome.

I really just don't think that you can maturely handle someone diagreeing you with. You act as if you are better than other people and that your opinion is most important and I don't understand how you have survived in the real world without getting into serious sh!t with other people.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

Yes, I will say it again. I can form an opinion on the ethics of cheating without adding facts.

Yup, you CAN, but

a. your argument won't be factual at all since you didn't include any facts
b. your opinion will be as a result uninformed and pretty much useless

but sure.. go for it and form baseless opinions that are uninformed and devoid of factual reference all you like.

I will just keep shooting them down.. its VERY EASY when you form them from straw men. lol

What the hell kind of facts would matter in this?

Do you know what science is? Do I have to go back THAT far to explain how a logical argument interrelates with the scientific method? lol

Facts make your argument REAL. If you are just going to pull crap out of your ass it's not going to carry much weight.

What exactly am I uninformed about? I have understood the concept of cheating and broken home etc etc for quite a number of years now.

Clearly you don't if you are going to make excuses for home-wreckers. lol

You don't understand how marriage works either. You seem to think if there's a problem in a marriage then its high time to secretly start mounting co-workers
in hotel rooms while on business trips.

That does NOT sound like you are informed on or understand how infidleity or marriage work at all to me.

Someone tells you they want a divorce and you sign off and the home-wreckers coming in for a sex feast to blow any hope of repair out the window. lol

NOT informed I'd say no. NOT at ALL.

Have you read ANY books on infidelity or repairing long term marriages?

lol

I bet not ONE book.

First you say being informed on the facts and the research is irrelevant, and NOW you are saying you ARE informed.

Will you make up your freakin mind? lol

I'm seriously asking because I don't need to know statistics to form an opinion on how I FEEL about something

No you don't need to know the stats, or the research, but it sure makes you put together a far more convincing case. lol

Ever seen a lawyer try a case without looking at the history of the law involved or other similar cases and how they were handled?

Ever seen a lawyer just walk into a trial unprepared and just wing it because debating the case doesnt' need facts or research? lol

It does NOT HAPPEN THAT WAY.

Lawyers do NOT debate about how they "feel" in a courtroom. They work from facts and research to build a compelling case.

Lawyers are TRAINED in argumentation. They DO IT for a LIVING.

Stats are more inaccurate than people are led to believe anyway

Sure, lets call the witch doctors back in... they were MUCH more reliable.

Lets throw out the doctors too and just bleed people with leeches again. lol

FEELINGS hardly have anything to do with FACTS.

Yes you can express how you feel, but there's no point in ARGUING a CASE on how you FEEL.

Argument requires LOGIC. You can say you feel sad or happy all you want.

But that's NOT going to win an argument.

Facts win your argument, not feelings.

I'm quite sure OPINIONS and FACTS are actually two different things

Most facts are subject to gradation and can be diluted to opinions.

It's a matter of degree of confidence. But, now I am talking statistics and you seem to think those are irrelevant too. lol

The IDEA is to build a convincing case. Not to throw straw men about, index the details to omit pertinent facts from the case, and avoid every challenge your opponent brings forward. That's just clumsy and you aren't going to win any debate that way.

Just because I disagree with you and honestly cannot get past how arrogant you are to actually want to pick apart everything you are saying because it is quite tiresome.

Now you feel I am arrogant. Boo Hoo. lol

I am not picking apart everything I am saying. I am REFUTING YOUR CASE.

Do you know what REFUTATION MEANS? lol

I seriously doubt you are twenty at this point.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

I don't need to read a bunch of books on the subject to have a simple discussion on IMDB. Stop taking stuff so seriously. I'm sure people like you come on here and act all high and mighty to feel big about yourself. I feel sorry for people like you because you need something as silly as that to give yourself confidence.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

I don't need to read a bunch of books on the subject to have a simple discussion on IMDB

Nope you don't need to, but it would help keep you from looking like an idiot.

I feel sorry for people like you because you need something as silly as that to give yourself confidence.

No, i do this to put ignorant people in their place. JUST LIKE CAROLYNE DID.

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

Maybe this will help you :

straw man definition

A made-up version of an opponent's argument that can easily be defeated. To accuse people of attacking a straw man is to suggest that they are avoiding ... more valid criticisms of their own position: “His speech had emotional appeal, but it wasn't really convincing because he attacked a straw man rather than addressing the real issues.”

- American Heritage Dictionary

Almost EVERY ONE of your FREAKING POSTS does this.

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

I was delivering my point without getting nasty to you or trying to throw around insults

Dont' like people finding holes in your arguments? lol

Boo hoo.

Insults?

Your flippant attitude towards marriage and cheer-leading lies, sleaze, and marital destruction is insulting to say the least.

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

I actually used to be closed minded on this very topic but someone your age or maybe even older pointed this very point out to me and it was refreshing. So obviously it isn't something only high school age or younger would agree with.

Throwing around the word "close minded" bears no weight. It's the last defense of someone' who's arguments have bee blown to smithereens.

If anything I have shown how little educated you are on these subjects. If anyone's mind is closed here it's yours due to lack of education on this subject.

This person that "pointed out" all these straw men to you was probably having or did have an affair himself and is still trying to excuse it.

Almost every person who is having or had an affair makes excuses for it. Even Emelia's father was making pathetic excuses for himself.

If you are in a marriage, keeping secrets leads to a LOT of HURT and MISERABLE PEOPLE.

If you are NOT in the marriage, STAY OUT of it. It is NONE of your damn BUSINESS.

If you are in a relationship that has to be secret, then you shouldn't be IN IT.

THAT is a refreshing piece of avice.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

Well maybe I found something that you don't know the defination of. That isn't a refreshing piece of advice because it's something that has been said time and time again. I was simply adding an antedote into the discussion that changed my mind on the matter. It wasn't a last ditch effort because my point was "blown into smithereens". And maybe I should just clarify because you like to infer things into what I am saying and you almost twist my words. I never was alluding to the fact that I would ever partake in an affair because judging by some of your comments prior you seem to believe that I would invite my ex husband's mistress over for tea. And that I almost support cheating. I was saying that as a grown woman I would have enough sense to act my age and move on and not blame the mistress because it wouldn't have been her fault, but my husbands. He was never forced to stray from home, he made a conscious decision to betray me. I of couse would not welcome her into my life with open arms but over time I would certainly get over it or try to move on but staying angry over something that you cannot change doesn't do anyone any good especially if there is a child involved. And knowing that there were already problems in the marriage to begin with.

What isn't sensible is staying mad over something that you cannot change. People that you cannot force to stay with you. I'm not sure how you can call me naive or close minded because I actually have a refreshing outlook on the situation. I know you will find a way to "find holes in my argument" but I don't see how anyone that isn't and open minded and realistic, sensible person could disagree with that. Not to mention mature.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

I never was alluding to the fact that I would ever partake in an affair because judging by some of your comments prior you seem to believe that I would invite my ex husband's mistress over for tea. And that I almost support cheating.

I was saying that as a grown woman I would have enough sense to act my age and move on

Sure, lets just REMOVE TORT LAW from the legal system. Unless an actual CRIME AGAINST THE STATE IS COMMITTED lets just tell everyone in the state a grievance against another citizen to "move on."

Sure, sure... as long as I am not committing a crime against the state, I can do whatever I feel like. That's a very safe country I'd LOVE to live in. lol

And you aren't acting your age here, why would you bother during a marital crisis? lol

and not blame the mistress because it wouldn't have been her fault

sure, disrespecting marriages is always a classy thing to do. Lets just show up at weddings and tell the groon the entire sexual history of the bride so he's sure their years together will always be dances in the clouds.

Sure, lets show up and just ruin someone else's marriage because it's not against the law. lol

You complain about MY being disrespectful here, well guess what. Mine right NOW is MICROSCOPING to what Emelia did and YOU are arguing a CASE for her to be LET OFF THE HOOK.

Sure, sweet little Emelia make NO bad decisions, NO bad judgements, was NOT in ANY WAY DISRESPECTFUL to ANYONE. She was an "angel" right? lol

No, she wasnt' and even YOU admitted that. NOW you are turning around and saying she's not in any way responsible for the demise of that marriage?

You are coo coo for cocoa puffs.

It was EMELIA jack was screwing in that hotel room, not some hooker.

SHE CHOSE to have sex. A DELIBERATE DECISION she KNEW would cause Carolyne a great deal of pain and inconvenience.

Emelia was very much accountable as was Jack. BOTH OF THEM.

, but my husbands. He was never forced to stray from home, he made a conscious decision to betray me. I of couse would not welcome her into my life with open arms but over time I would certainly get over it or try to move on but staying angry over something that you cannot change doesn't do anyone any good especially if there is a child involved. And knowing that there were already problems in the marriage to begin with.

Sure, lets blame the man for the whole damn thing. Cute, sweet Emelia gets off the hook so she can go trash another home.

How many does she have to destroy before you wake up and realize she's not some mindless drone and is acting deliberately here?

And knowing that there were already problems in the marriage to begin with.

Duh! EVERY marriage has PROBLEMS. lol

You think it's all white picket fences and dancing in the clouds do you?

Don't tamper with other people's marriages. IT's BASIC COURTESY that was LOST on Emelia COMPLETELY.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

When you declare marriages dead on arrival when you don't have a license to practice marriage counseling ya I'd say you support cheating.

When you make excuses like "they couldn't resist temptation" ya I think you are supporting cheating.

I can form an opinion ON A FICTIONAL MOVIE WITH FICTIONAL CHARACTERS without having a marriage certificate. My "couldn't resist temptation" was more sarcastic. I thought it was quite obvious I was blaming Jack on this whole affair, I was never excusing HIM.

And you aren't acting your age here, why would you bother during a marital crisis? lol

And you seriously think you are? You have got to be kidding me.

I'll say it again, some people don't believe in the constitution of marriage that's probably why mistress exist. You can't think that is unclassy all you want but that is your moral belief, not someone else's. She had no loyalty to Carolynn, Jack did. Something I don't think you will wrap your head around. I think it's strange that you are so "mature" but you can't make a simple distinction between the two. Even if she was a mistress to a millions husbands, it would still be the husbands responsibility not to stray. He should be held accountable at all times.

Duh! EVERY marriage has PROBLEMS. lol

You think it's all white picket fences and dancing in the clouds do you?

Don't tamper with other people's marriages. IT's BASIC COURTESY that was LOST on Emelia COMPLETELY

OBVIOUSLY! If he felt the need to cheat than obviously his marriage was beyond repair. HE EVEN SAID THAT. Did he not?

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

When you declare marriages dead on arrival when you don't have a license to practice marriage counseling ya I'd say you support cheating.

When you make excuses like "they couldn't resist temptation" ya I think you are supporting cheating.

I can form an opinion ON A FICTIONAL MOVIE WITH FICTIONAL CHARACTERS without having a marriage certificate. My "couldn't resist temptation" was more sarcastic. I thought it was quite obvious I was blaming Jack on this whole affair, I was never excusing HIM.

Alright. I am going to teach you what a straw man is becuase CLEARLY you have NO FREAKING IDEA :

This is what's been said and your challenge to it :

ME : When you declare marriages dead on arrival when you don't have a license to practice marriage counseling ya I'd say you support cheating.

ME : When you make excuses like "they couldn't resist temptation" ya I think you are supporting cheating.

YOU : I can form an opinion ON A FICTIONAL MOVIE WITH FICTIONAL CHARACTERS without having a marriage certificate.

------------------------

NOW LOOK at that CAREFULLY. YOU are challenging the suggestion that you can't form an opinion on a fiction without a marriage certificate.

Now WHERE in my challenges above did I say you

a. can't form an opinion
b. require a marriage certificate

NOWHERE.

THAT is a STRAW MAN. When you CHALLENGE someone with a position that was NOT CHALLENGED in the FIRST PLACE that is a STRAW MAN.

In short, shifting the topic.

My challenge is that you are supporting cheating.

NO WHERE in your response did you actually address the CHALLENGE there.

THAT is a STRAW MAN and you do it ALL THE DAMN TIME.

It makes you LOOK like you are FIVE YEARS OLD.

You NEED TO STOP IT you are MAKING a FOOL OF YOURSELF.

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

Although I skimmed through

LOL

You accuse ME of not reading carefully and here YOU are skimming? lol

Man there are more holes in your posts than swiss cheese. lol

I could pick through these all night long it's hilarious. lol

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

If you looked at the time that the posts were made, you would realize that I skimmed through before and posted that and then came back out of bordem and decided to pick through the thread.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

Jack ended the marriage, not Emeila. Carolynn had a child and needed to move on and be an adult regardless of how hurt she was, nothing was going to come of her being angry.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

Jack ended the marriage, not Emeila. Carolynn had a child and needed to move on and be an adult regardless of how hurt she was, nothing was going to come of her being angry.

straw man

But I will bite anyways.

Emelia AND Jack TRASHED the marriage beyond repair. Jack and Carolyn ended it.

Do you know that with proper management marriages CAN survive affairs? MANY DO. But the HOME-WRECKER needs to GO AWAY FIRST.

That's the first step in dealing with a third person in a marriage. The third person needs to GET LOST.

And YES, something DOES come from being angry if you are angry enough to SPEAK UP like Carolynne did. Good on HER for protecting herself and speaking her mind.

What did you expect her to do, let some sleazy girl trash her marriage and she just bends over and takes it? lol

When anger leads to action that EXPOSES selfish, sleazy, destructive behavior something DOES "come of her being angry".

Exposing home-wrecking is a GOOD thing.

I wish MORE people did it rather than bending over and keeping quiet.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

Emelia didn't trash the marriage, for the love of God! The marriage was already torn, Jack said so himself didn't he? Is he supposed to stay in the marriage when both people were unhappy? It would have ended with or without Emelia, there would have been some other woman to cheat with.

Obviously Carolynn is going to be angry but at the time that the movie was taking place it was time for her to realize that nothing was going to come of her anger. Plus she was already seeing someone else and got pregnant, she had no business living the past and making Emeila feel bad for losing the baby and blaming her for other stuff involving her son. If you agree with Carolynn then I seriously question how morally sound you really are. Which I find ironic because your judging other (fictional) people while sidestepping something else that was also morally wrong, but it's okay because she was cheated on about a year ago, she has every right to sit in her misery and make everyone else just as miserable.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

Emelia didn't trash the marriage, for the love of God! The marriage was already torn, Jack said so himself didn't he? Is he supposed to stay in the marriage when both people were unhappy? It would have ended with or without Emelia, there would have been some other woman to cheat with.

LOL

Ok, here we go again. I am gonna number these out for you so you get them maybe this time.

1. There is NO WAY for you to KNOW if that the marriage between Jack and Carolynne couldn't have been saved if they WORKED on it. Marriages are NOT about two people dancing about in wonderland. It's day by day work. There are ups and downs in EVERY marriage. There are strong days and weak, fun and boring, better and worse. The VOW is a commitment to WORK through the worse days in order to keep the union alive, the family alive, and the home standing firm. YOU cannot fortell nor can I if those two couldn't have worked through their marital problems to get to a strong point again. Do you know what COUPLES THERAPY IS either? lol

You are NOT some witch doctor here who can wave their hand and fortell what couples will make it and who won't.

2. People in marriages get disillusioned. It happens to EVERY COUPLE. They do NOT get disillusioned at the same TIME either. People walk into couples therapy ALL THE TIME ready to throw in the towel. They do the WORK, and the couple gets back on track.

JACK NEVER EXPLORED MARITAL REPAIR.

3. BOTH members of the marriage STAY in the marriage and if the marriage is struggling you WORK on it with a couples therapist. It happens ALL the time in the real world. JACK simply decided to ESCAPE into an AFFAIR rather than doing the work for the two to be closer. It may not have worked no, but we will NEVER KNOW because JACK never bothered to TRY. He made excuses and resorted to escapism instead.

4. you do NOT know how or when or IF the marriage would have ended. I know LOTS of couples who went thorugh rough periods and did the WORK. They remained HONEST and RESPECTFUL of one another and did the WORK to get CLOSE again.

Marriages are not HIGH SCHOOL. You WORK on it if it's got a problem. You don't THROW it out for someone else. ADULTS are supposed to be more MATURE than that.

Obviously Carolynn is going to be angry but at the time that the movie was taking place it was time for her to realize that nothing was going to come of her anger.

Jesus, I SAID already that Carolynne speaking up is a GOOD thing. It EXPOSES home-wreckers so the NEXT Emelia might think TWICE before interloping on someone else's marriage.

Carolynne's anger was in THAT way constructive.

Could she have been more dignified? Of course. But under the circumstances I don't blame her one bit for losing her temper at any point in the film or for anything she said.

SHE had her MARRIAGE VIOLATED. What's Emelias' EXCUSE? NOTHING! She's just a selfish home-wrecker.

Plus she was already seeing someone else and got pregnant

Ya, AFTER Emelia trashed her first marriage to smitherreens.
[/quote]

she had no business living the past and making Emeila feel bad for losing the baby and blaming her for other stuff involving her son.

Ya she did. It's called REVENGE. If someone burns my home down I am damn well gonna take a match to theirs if I can.

Carolynne can't be expected to watch ten or fifteen years of work get trashed by a tramp and just smile and walk away. I had more respect for her fighting BACK and NOT wanting Emelia anywhere NEAR her son.

If you agree with Carolynn then I seriously question how morally sound you really are.

Sure. I am shaking on that one. YOUR judgement of what's morally sound is in serious question right now. lol

Which I find ironic because your judging other (fictional) people while sidestepping something else that was also morally wrong, but it's okay because she was cheated on about a year ago, she has every right to sit in her misery and make everyone else just as miserable.

Yup. In my view Carolynnes disrespectful behavior towards Emelia was justifiable. Emelia's toward Carolynne's marriage was NOT.

I am not sidestepping anything. I am simply recognizing that Carolynne's behavior was PROVOKED and Emelia's infidelity with her husband was NOT.

Do you know what provoked means?

If I walk down the street and someone kicks me in the gut, and I kick them back... are you telling me both of us are being equally disrespectful to one another? lol

Do you know what provoked means? lol

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

Wow, you are incredibly disrespectful and I question how old you are. I find it ironic that you are calling me immature and inferring that I don't understand what simple words mean when you cannot even conduct yourself well and actually act your age. It's almost embarrassing.

Jack didn't want to work on "marital repair" obviously. And it was made clear that the marriage was already in bad shape. It doesn't matter if the revenge was "justified", eventually it becomes over the top and unnecessary, Carolynn should have known when she had gone too far. Especially since there is a child involved and her making amends and keeping the peace regardless of what had happened, was necessary.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

Jack didn't want to work on "marital repair" obviously. And it was made clear that the marriage was already in bad shape. It doesn't matter if the revenge was "justified", eventually it becomes over the top and unnecessary, Carolynn should have known when she had gone too far. Especially since there is a child involved and her making amends and keeping the peace regardless of what had happened, was necessary.

There is almost ALWAYS ONE spouse in couples counseling who wants to work MORE than the other does. And yes SOME are outright determined to divorce.

AFTER doing the work they realize throwing ten or fifteen years away and CONDEMNING your OWN CHILDREN to a BROKEN HOME isn't healthy for anyone.

And if you are BONING some lawyer at your workplace on the side that does NOT add much incentive to work either.

JACK needed to GROW UP as much as Emelia did.

Why on earth does Carolynne have to be the better person out of these three?

Why can't Emelia just GROW UP and LEAVE MARRIAGES THE HELL ALONE??? LOL

holes holes holes everywhere I look. lol

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

We are debating whether Emelia and Carolynn are on an even playing field and how they are "both in the wrong". The affair already happened and the damage was done. There was nothing Carolynn could have done at this point in the movie. Jack didn't want to be married, he wanted to be with Emelia, everything was already done and it was "post-affair" throughout the movie save for a few flashbacks. That is what we are talking about.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

The affair already happened and the damage was done.

OK, at least we have you on record admitting there was damage done. That's a step in the right direction.

There was nothing Carolynn could have done at this point in the movie.

Since when are we indexing the storyline? lol

This is ridiculous.

I walk down the street.
I kick you in the face.
You scream and yell.
I say "well, the damage is done now. You may as well get over it and move on."

Does that make ANY SENSE TO YOU?

THAT is what you are arguing a case for here with this "the damage is done, move on crap."

Lets just go to court where law suits are being heard and tell the offended party "just get over it and move on, the damage is done." LOL

You would get LAUGHED out of THAT room too.

When one person ACTS on another and does DAMAGE

a. "the damage is done" is a sidestep of accountability
b. "move on" is an attempt to dismiss any wrongdoing in the past

Emelia did DAMAGE to Carolyne as did Jack. Emelia SHOULD be WORKING to make AMENDS. Instead she bitches and groans for an hour and a half and low and behold its CAROLYNE who ends up being the bigger person to make her feel better.

You can't just WIPE AWAY harm one person does to another.

People want RECOMPENSED for the INCONVENIENCES they experience at the hands of DISRESPECTFUL PEOPLE.

IT's called CIVIL LAW.

Jack didn't want to be married, he wanted to be with Emelia, everything was already done and it was "post-affair" throughout the movie save for a few flashbacks. That is what we are talking about.

You do NOT know what Jack wanted or what he WOULD have chosen had he done the WORK. HE CHOSE TO SKIP OUT on his marriage instead of exploring repair.

That's NOT FAIR to Carolyne OR his SON.

This "everything was already done" is you just indexing the storyline to avoid addressing Emelia's offenses.

It's a convenient sidestep on your part.

Assess ALL her actions not just the ones that are CONVENIENT TO YOU.

I am not talking about what is CONVENIENT FOR YOU.

Sure, its VERY EASY to argue a case for ANYONE if you OMIT SCENES from the FILM!!! lol

Heck I can make Carolynne look like a damn saint if I OMIT the scenes with her raging at the woman that trashed her marriage. lol

Wow, straw men all over the place and NOW you are OMITTING parts of the film to make a case legitimate. lol

What's next? lol

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 13 years ago

You really are a piece of work.

What was Carolynn supposed to do, make Jack love her? Make him break up with Emelia? Stay in a loveless marriage with a woman he didn't want to be married to? I think that it takes anyone with common sense to know that if he wanted to work on the marriage he would have. Are you forgetting that this is a fictional movie written by other people? Their lives are not real. I am going based off of what we have seen. It showed no inclination that he wanted to get back with his wife. He even told Emelia that his marriage wasn't working for a while now. Did he now? You are not in any better of a place to judge what he would have done because HIS LIFE WAS WRITTEN BY OTHER PEOPLE. You can't force someone to have feelings for you or to stay married to you. If someone hit you on the street than yes you could hit them back perhaps but eventually would have to deal with the fact that, that person was being a d!ck. Just like Carolynn has every right to be upset for a while but eventually she had to move on because nothing, especially treating Emelia horribly and turning her son against her was going to get Jack back.

Character is higher than intellect, a great soul will be strong to live as well as think

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

What was Carolynn supposed to do, make Jack love her?

You really need to understand marriage science and the work that marriage therapists do.

You are CLUELESS.

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

Just like Carolynn has every right to be upset for a while but eventually she had to move on because nothing, especially treating Emelia horribly and turning her son against her was going to get Jack back.

LOL

I don't think she wanted Jack back after he mounted that sleaze in that hotel room.

I think Carolyn wanted COMPENSATION for those two TRASHING FIFTEEN YEARS of HARD WORK.

Clearly the idea of compensating someone when you cause them offense is lost on you. lol

I am gonna be steering clear of you and any children you raise for sure.

Because if you disrespect of offend anyone you will not own up to it.

You will make excuses and tell the offended party to grow up and move on.

Very classy. lol

(not to mention passive aggressive and abusive)

[–] king_maker_1428 13 years ago

You are not in any better of a place to judge what he would have done because HIS LIFE WAS WRITTEN BY OTHER PEOPLE

More straw men.

I never foretold what would have happened. YOU did that by saying the marriage was dead anyways and he would have cheated with someone else.

I NEVER said what the outcome of family therapy would be if he explored it.

NO ONE KNOWS.

Duh.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Aim-JE 12 years ago

Your casual use of the word "rape" is repulsive and offensive.

THANK YOU! I'm so glad someone finally said that, and I agree with you 100%.

"Pay no attention to the man in the trunk."

[–] imaneassi 8 years ago

Stop blaming Emilia for the destruction of this marriage and Family. Emilia could have walked naked in front of him, done everything to seduce him, HE'S THE ONE WHO CHOSE TO CHEAT, who broke his marriage and family. Emilia didn't rape him,It was his choice. She's not responsible for his vows and marriage. He is.

[–] king_maker_1428 8 years ago

imaneassi: Stop blaming Emilia for the destruction of this marriage and Family. Emilia could have walked naked in front of him, done everything to seduce him, HE'S THE ONE WHO CHOSE TO CHEAT, who broke his marriage and family....It was his choice. She's not responsible for his vows and marriage. He is.

Imaneassi: What she's doing is morally wrong
Imaneassi: Emilia has no morals, is wrong to go after a married man
Imaneassi: Emilia chose not to control her impulses
Imaneassi: There wouldn’t be any actions to have have consequences had she walked away.

Those are quotes from YOUR posts above. You conceded all of this already.

So why are you contradicting yourself? lol

[–] isabellaconnor 12 years ago

Meh ... Carolyn was tolerable. I couldn't stand Emilia. Even after she lost the baby, I had a bit of sympathy for her, but still didn't like her.

Poor William.

[–] diane-kenny 11 years ago

I have just read through this interchange with quite a bit of interest.

It's a shame...I agree with much that has been stated about infidelity and the fact that Emelia and Jack were so wrong to engage in their affair....but, unfortunately, it degraded to attacks upon others' intelligence.

Carolyn did and said some terrible things. Yes. She was hurt and her marriage was destroyed - thanks to the other woman and her husband. I guess we all can't take the "high road" - although Carolyn would have been a sympathetic character - had she acted more like "the good wife."

I agree that the children were the true victims. No doubt. All the adults acted very childish and selfishly.

It's a shame, as adults, we cannot put our children first....but so often in the pursuit of "happiness" - we put aside everyone else - but ourselves. And, the results - shown in the film - is that the happiness doesn't materialize. I don't see any of the characters having found true happiness.

Interesting debate.

I will say, though, a 20 year old, who hasn't had a longterm relationship or had their long time spouse and father of her children, cast her aside - has absolutely NO CLUE what the wife was going through. "Just accept it and move on" is a statement from someone who really has no idea what this feels like.

There is nothing romantic or justify-able about infidelity.

[–] king_maker_1428 11 years ago

Thanks Diane.

My sentiments exactly.

I know at least three women who have and are walking in Carolyn's shoes. It's a horrible way to treat a person, known to you or not.

I can't criticize Carolyn's behavior given what she had done to her by Emelia and Jack.

Emelia and Jack, well, their behavior has no excuse at all... They are both just two selfish, destructive, and disrespectful children. There is nothing causal in the plot to give these two any credibility for their selfishness.

Did Emelia get what she deserved? Did Jack?

I dunno.. But I can honestly say I didn't' shed a tear for either of them at any point.

I am fed up with Hollywood celebrating the destructiveness and selfishness of infidelity, this film was a nice wake up call to "The Other Woman".

You will never find happiness sneaking around and lying to people.

Jack and Emelia miss this basic fact :

If the relationship you're in has to be a secret, you probably shouldn't be in it.

Bonnie and Clyde couldn't have made a bigger mess than these two.

[–] LovesConfusingJoy 10 years ago

I was never defending infidelity or expecting the wife to simply "move on" right away. But given the circumstances of the movie I don't think Carolyn was justified in the things that she did. Her problem was her ex husband and she ended up confusing her son with all the hateful things she said about his sister. She also kind of turned her son into an *beep* for a brief period. And although I am still quite young and have never been married, I am still able to empathize with many people who situations I haven't personally experienced. So I don't need you to tell me that I have "no clue" what a wife that has been cheated on would have been feeling at the time. I think that it isn't helpful to generalize and that often times there is a lot more than meets the eye especially when it comes to infidelity. There is all sorts of reasons people cheat and I don't think that makes them terrible people even if they hurt someone in the process. Sometimes people even cheat unknowingly and had no intention of taking things any further or even planned on flirting but at times people do just fall in love. That has happened. I do not think that makes them terrible people.

Every sin is an escape from emptiness.

[–] 10 years ago

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