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'Martyrs' ending explained: 'Keep doubting' is the key. UPDATED

posted 13 years ago by submachine
278 replies | jump to latest

Anna knows, just like the viewer knows, that discovering the existence of the afterlife is Mademoiselle's life work, so important to her and the cult that they are willing to do anything.

The beauty of the movie (which some viewers have completely missed), is that when Anna whispers to Mademoiselle, we think Mademoiselle wins. We think Mademoiselle gets what she wants. We think Mademoiselle is going to tell the glorious news to the gathering cult. And we think Anna has been reduced to nothing more than a used, mindless, unthinking tool.

But then comes the twist: "Keep doubting...bang!"

And we realize we were wrong, as the director Pascal Laugier explains: "the real point of everything is revealed only in the final seconds of the movie. For me, that was the exciting part of the project."

Anna purposely lied to Mademoiselle and said there was no afterlife, she saw nothing. Anna was the first to speak, and what she spoke convinced Mademoiselle that there was nothing, that her entire life was a futile, evil quest for nothing. Mademoiselle gave up, overcome with guilt and worthlessness, and killed herself. But not before giving a final warning to her friend Ettiene: "Keep doubting (because if you don't, like I didn't, you're gonna end up destroyed like me): Bang!"

It is the one and only thing that Anna could do that would destroy Mademoiselle. Despite her pain throughout the ruined shell of her body, she retained enough strength and humanity in her mind to use the one and only chance she had. With a simple whisper she destroyed her captors, finally avenged her friend, and saved countless girls from falling into the same fate.

Why Martyrs works is that we the audience don't know it happens, can't even fathom it could happen, until the shocking reveal forces us to question all of our previous mistaken notions. We can then reflect upon the foreshadowing in the very beginning of the movie, when young Anna tells the doctors she knows she is there to help Lucie, and to find the bad people who hurt her. When we realize that beaten, barely alive skinned creature was not only willing but able to defeat her captor, that is what makes Martyrs great. It is this unexpected display of strength, loyalty, endurance and sacrifice of Anna, a martyr defined, that elevates the movie to a level far above the horror genre. Anna transcends, and thus Martyrs transcends.

How Martyrs tricks us into the false belief that Mademoiselle and the cult won:

1) The gathering cult leads the viewer to believe there is an incoming victory speech.

2) The conversation between Mademoiselle and Etienne, specifically about getting an answer, getting a clear answer, but still actually the wrong answer.

3) Similar appearing emotional expressions of relief/dejection in Mademoiselles reaction to what Anna said. This distinct lack of sentiment shown by Mademoiselle is not only the key to understanding why she wouldn't "greedily" kill herself to reach the afterlife, but is also why many viewers are confused about her defeat. To someone who doesn't understand psychology, she doesn't seem to be acting suicidal or overtly depressed. And that makes the suicide so much more shocking for the viewer. But apparently it totally confuses some viewers into completely missing the twist that Anna lied, even with the warning of "keep doubting". Mademoiselle is cold, calculating and emotionless, she kills herself with the same lack of emotion as she tortures and kills others. She is a cult-member, and the entirety of that cults existence is finding an answer. Find the wrong answer, and the will to live is simply removed, that awareness is what empowered Anna to endure hell. She told Mademoiselle there was nothing, and Mademoiselle ends her wasted life with the same methodical detachment as she ended the lives of others. That is the truly evil villain the director has given us, not some megalomaniacal comic book character.

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[–] Tom_Cruises_Testicles 13 years ago

I doubt the cult has any intentions on stopping, especially after just having their biggest break through. They would interpret Madame's death as a Selfish act and see Anna's state as proof that they could obtain what they seek, just not this time. Maybe the next girl. Maybe the one after that. I can see no evidence in the film to suggest they are going to stop.

I'd even go further. Had Anna told them what they wished. Had Madame then given them that testimony. They still would of continued after that to seek more Martyrs. After all, it can't hurt to hear as many testimonies as possible about the afterlife.

[–] Dismenot 13 years ago

What kind of nic is that? Are you nuts?
:D

http://www.missingkids.com
http://www.amberalert.gov

[–] joshdestardi 10 years ago

I agree on the second comment, but not the first.

Mademoiselle is the 'head' of the cult. Cut off the head and these otherwise 'normal' people (as seen by the reverence they were asked to give to Anna by the messenger on the staircase) and remember, whom never have seen the violence that Mademoiselle has her employees apply to these girls, would be shocked into eventual disbandment.

Not very original, but 'We accept the love we think we deserve.' Brilliant.

[–] submachine 10 years ago

Mademoiselle is the 'head' of the cult. Cut off the head and these otherwise 'normal' people (as seen by the reverence they were asked to give to Anna by the messenger on the staircase) and remember, whom never have seen the violence that Mademoiselle has her employees apply to these girls, would be shocked into eventual disbandment.

Correct, especially if the head isn't just cut off but cuts itself off.

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[–] kiwifilms-inc 10 years ago

I think I just realised. The Martyr might not be Anna, but Mademoiselle.

[–] Lildre321 13 years ago

How is this updated? You've just taken what you said 2 years ago and reposted it. Someone's a one trick troll. Open your mind to some new films, move on and accept the fact that this movie clearly had an open ended ending for the sole purpose of people having multiple interpretations. If you can't realize that the purpose of this film was to be that way, then I implore you to "Keep Doubting."

[–] Mrssmiff 13 years ago

This is purely my own interpretation of the ending, but I think Anna told Mademoiselle what she saw and that Mademoiselle took her own life to experience that for herself, rather than share with the gathered group.

[–] HeyFoxymophandlemama 12 years ago

I thought that also, that she got her answer and left the rest out of it but why would she think she is going to heaven? And she was so dedicated to the cause, her life's work, you would think she would be happy to share it and prove to to them all. Then maybe a mass suicide. So I think maybe Anna did win in the end, now that I think about it. I hope so anyway. Or maybe there is no heaven and hell just "the other world" and even evil people can go there when they die. Maybe Anna told her she was going to hell. I like that it was open ended. I hate how movies spell everything out for you today as I'm sure the US remake will do.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] x_offender_79 13 years ago

I have to disagree completely with this theory. Do you really think that someone with a faith as strong as Mademoiselle's would be driven to suicide by one girl simply saying 'I didn't see anything'? She would be disappointed yes because she thought she finally had an answer, but would it cause her to change her entire belief system and dismiss her whole life’s works as wrong? Of course not, this is a woman so arrogant that she feels it's completely acceptable to horrifically torture young women for the sake of her work. She would never in a million years so readily accept that Anna saw nothing that she would reject her work and kill herself. More likely, she would blame the girl and try again. She would not give up after just one result.

You do actually give the most obvious explanation though, in your very first sentence- 'it's Mademoiselles lifework'. It was her lifework, and, with Anna's help she was able to complete it. Problem is, when you complete your lifework, you don't really have anything to live for anymore. When people achieve a goal, or find the answer to a question they have been working on for a long time, the feelings involved with this are not usually happy but depression, despondence and feeling totally lost. This is because the person no longer has a purpose in life, nothing to work towards. I think that Mademoiselle was actually a lot happier looking for the answer than she was knowing it, as looking for it still gave her reason to live, knowing it didn't.

I think she killed herself before passing the information on because she didn't want the rest of the cult to feel as lost and depressed for knowing the answer as she did, and also because she didn't want the work to stop. The cult is NOT defeated by her death, in fact, the work will definitely carry on now that they know that there was a breakthrough and the only person who could tell them is dead. Why would the cult break up just because she is dead? From the people who turn up at the end, it has many members, and lots of money, what makes you so sure that it would break up just because she is dead?

The fact is, the only way the cult would break up would be if she had told them what Anna saw, because that would answer the question, ending the point of the cult.

Mademoiselle realised that knowing the answer to the question is worse than searching for it, which is why she killed herself before anyone else could know the answer.

Oh, and the twist is not that we think the cult won and it turns out that Anna screwed them, that's stupid. The twist is that even though Anna gave Mademoiselle exactly what she had looking for her whole entire life, the one thing that can stop all the torture, it turns out that Mademoiselle didn't really want it after all, she thought she did, but what she actually wanted was the idea of it and the 'working towards' the answer. The fact that, at the end of the film the answer is dead, brings about, to the audience, that actually Anna DIDN'T stop the cult, even though she hung on and reached the martyr stage, it didn't matter. The work, the torture, will still continue as long as people 'keep doubting...'

[–] submachine 13 years ago

she killed herself before passing the information on because she didn't want the rest of the cult to feel as lost and depressed

Right, because that's Mademoiselles defining characteristic: sympathy!

this is a woman so arrogant that she feels it's completely acceptable to horrifically torture young women for the sake of her work.

Arrogance hides weakness, and the weak are easily broken. Anna broke Mademoiselle by invalidating her existence, her past, her present, and her future. That is why people, like Mademoiselle, kill themselves.

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[–] iHaveNoFkinClue 13 years ago

Maybe I interpretted this film wrong, but from what I got it was quite an anti-religion film? The idea that after all that work and research into the afterlife, Mademoiselle was (supposedly) told there isn't such a thing and she just couldn't take it? Perhaps not necessarily an anti-religion film, but a film trying to say to not put too much focus on things you will never know for sure? I dunno.

To be honest both submachine's and x offender 79's theories make sense to me. Didn't the old guy giving the speech about Anna to the cult say that only 4 others had been successfully martyred before? I wonder what they had to say about the afterlife? Maybe they all said that there was nothing, and a 5th martyred person telling Mademoiselle that there is nothing just drove her to suicide? I think the cult will probably carry on a few more times, just in case, but Mademoiselle obviously couldn't take it.

[–] x_offender_79 13 years ago

None of the others were able to talk after the experience. Anna was the first to actually relay what she saw.

Submachine, good point about the sympathy, (although just because she showed no sympathy for the girls, does not mean that she didn't for the cult members- she lived for the work of the cult, so must have felt some sort of loyality to them). That was more of an after thought to be honest. My main point was that she killed herself before telling the others because that would have ended the work of the cult, and she couldn't face doing that.

I'm still not conviced that someone of her faith and personality would give up her lifework and kill herself after the testimony of just one person, especially if she had been told there was nothing after death. Just can't understand why she she would first off just suddenly believe it over a belief that she had held her whole life, and why, if she did believe it, she would then choose to enter that nothingness instead of trying to live for as long possible!

[–] iHaveNoFkinClue 13 years ago

Is that what was said in the film, that none of the others were able to talk afterwards? If so, obviously I wasn't listening properly lol :-/

I'm still not conviced that someone of her faith and personality would give up her lifework and kill herself after the testimony of just one person, especially if she had been told there was nothing after death. Just can't understand why she she would first off just suddenly believe it over a belief that she had held her whole life, and why, if she did believe it, she would then choose to enter that nothingness instead of trying to live for as long possible!

Yeah exactly, it's very bizarre..

[–] x_offender_79 13 years ago

That's what it said in the subtitles of the version I saw, don't speak French so don't know exactly what they said. Said something like 'Four have reached this state, but this is the first to speak about what she saw'.

To be honest, I wasn't really paying attention by this point either, I'd got a bit bored...

[–] iHaveNoFkinClue 13 years ago

Heh yeah, I liked the first half of the film but then it just went downhill once Lucie killed herself and the cult came in and took Anna

I had English subtitles on too, guess I looked away for a brief moment at that point or something and missed it :-/ Or wasn't paying attention like you said haha

[–] x_offender_79 13 years ago

Yeah, same here. I was enjoying it up until the cult came in!

For me, the whole martyr twist just didn't work, it was just too complicated and abstract. A twist is meant to be simple, and although you're not meant to spot it before the reveal, when you do discover it, it's meant to be either a 'oh, of course!' kind of a moment, or something that gives the whole film a different view point. You didn't get either of these with this twist.

With this, the twist was so random, with no subtle hints to it at all in the first part, that it was like watching two completely different films!

[–] submachine 13 years ago

A twist is meant to be simple, and although you're not meant to spot it before the reveal, when you do discover it, it's meant to be either a 'oh, of course!' kind of a moment

As in "Keep doubting...bang!"

And we realize we were wrong.

Anna purposely lied to Mademoiselle.

And Mademoiselle killed herself not because of "guilt", but because her purpose in life has just been completely destroyed.

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[–] x_offender_79 13 years ago

Errr... no, I wasn't even referring to the end of the film, but the 'twist' where the whole martyr idea was first introduced... read my post a bit more carefully, I clearly state 'until the cult comes in' (and, obviously FIRST explains its purpose). Believe it not, there is actually more than the one, (in your case ridiculous) twist in this film. I know you love your theory, but really there is no need to YET AGAIN ram it down our throats where it's not even relevant.

I have already explained my own personal theory to you on the end, TWICE, seriously, if I have to explain to you a third time, I can only come to the conclusion that you will never get it, so I'm not going to waste my time.

[–] submachine 13 years ago

the 'twist' where the whole martyr idea was first introduced..

That's not a plot twist you dolt, its a plot.

why, if she did believe it, she would then choose to enter that nothingness instead of trying to live for as long possible!

The same reason everyone else commits suicide, how old are you?

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[–] x_offender_79 13 years ago

It's something that has not been introduced to the plot until this part of the film, therefore, by that very point, it a PLOT TWIST and I stand by what I said about it.

In answer to your other question, well my name says 79, so I guess that would make me 32! Not that I like to brag about it, but I have experienced, over the years several people in my life who have committed suicide, all who have had, to some degree, some form of faith, or belief in some sort of afterlife.

I also, and this I do like to brag about, have studied psychology for 7 years and work right now as a psychologist, routinely dealing with suicidal people. I can tell right now that people with absolutely no faith (true atheists are actually very hard to come across) are the LEAST likely to actually commit suicide. Honestly, they are the 'safe' patients because, as I already stated they are less to kill themselves and enter 'nothingness' (much like our Madame, if we are to believe your theory). The people I have to worry about are those with faith, as they are more likely to give in and commit suicide because they believe there is more beyond. From a professional psychological point of view, I also stand by this point.

[–] submachine 13 years ago

people with absolutely no faith (true atheists are actually very hard to come across) are the LEAST likely to actually commit suicide.

Mademoiselle isn't an atheist you dope, she is someone who was just told her lifelong faith has been a waste of time, and her faith in the afterlife meant everything to her.

Anna took that away, leading directly to the destruction of Mademoiselle and likely the cult as well.

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[–] x_offender_79 13 years ago

In other words she no longer has faith right? If she still had faith in the afterlife she would not have killed herself, is that what yoy are saying?

You do realise that a TRUE Atheist is someone who doesn't beleive in ANYTHING, it's not just about Christian religion right?

Madame DID have faith, but, if we are to believe your theory, Anna made her lose that faith, in the afterlife, the one faith that she had, leaving her with no faith in anything (according to you the reason she killed herself), making her an ATHEIST.

Hey, it's your theory...

[–] submachine 13 years ago

Madame DID have faith, but, if we are to believe to your theory, Anna made her lose that faith

Which left her with nothing but memories of a wasted life, and an obviously motivated suicide.

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[–] x_offender_79 13 years ago

No, this makes her an ATHEIST. Refer to my past post based on actual REAL LIFE facts.

You seem to focus very much on the finer, almost irreverent details of posts, instead of the main points which, to be honest, I find a bit weird...

Also, the fact that you deleted your post in that other thread before I could read it made me lose a lot of respect for you. It's a shame, I thought I could have an intelligent discussion with you but I guess not. I'm a bit bored with repeating myself now...

[–] submachine 13 years ago

No, this makes her an ATHEIST.

1. Atheist is a willing choice, Mademoiselle was stripped of her faith by Anna

2. The point that your pea-brain keeps missing is that Mademoiselles suicide had a clear cause, Anna took away all she had, and left her with nothing but memories of a wasted life.

Next, why don't you tell us all you haven't met many Mademoiselles that killed themselves, that's just as relevant as your last post.

you deleted your post

And re-posted it here, in the right thread. Pay attention.

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[–] iHaveNoFkinClue 13 years ago

At first the film seemed to be about two abused girls, one of which was still so traumatised by the events that she 'hunts down' and exacts revenge on her tormenters. I liked this part of the film and was hoping it would stick with it, but then once Lucie killed herself and the cult crashed in and took Anna away.. it felt like the film just suddenly changed completely - I'm all for twists, I like them most of the time, but this wasn't just a twist, it was a complete turnaround from how the film initially began, thus it felt like watching an entirely different film thereon. I wouldn't even mind so much but it got quite boring at this point...

Mademoiselle's suicide is arguable and as said before I think you both make very valid points about it. On the one hand, if this had been Mademoiselle's lifes work, why would just one testimony suggesting that there is no afterlife drive her to suicide? Why would she not try again with other girls? It doesn't make sense that just one person could so easily convince her otherwise, especially when you have such a strong, deeply held belief in something. But, just for the record, let's suggest that she was so easily convinced of this, then I agree that her suicide was probably due to thinking her life was now pointless because there is just nothingness afterwards. BUT, this too has flaws - if you now really believe there is no life after death, surely you would rather live on for as long as possible and tell everyone, especially your own cult?! And why end your life prematurely because you'll end up in that nothingness anyway?! Perhaps she just couldn't bring herself to tell the cult, and saw suicide as the only way out. It's a very debatable ending!

[–] submachine 13 years ago

why would just one testimony suggesting that there is no afterlife drive her to suicide?

Because this was Mademoiselle's lifes work, that single testimony is what she had been trying, and failing, to get for decades. This was all explained very clearly in the movie, how vital the testimony was, and how Anna was, amazingly, the only one to ever survive long enough to give one. Once you understand that, you'll be ready to form an opinion.

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[–] x_offender_79 13 years ago

Penguin01, totally agree with everything you said!

I'm not saying that my theory is the only right one, but it does make more sense to me than the other one, mainly for the reasons you list.

That's the beauty of these types of films though. There is no real right answer, and it's fun reading how other people saw it. The discussions on here are actually more interesting to me than the film itself!

Truth is, we'll never really know why she killed herself because we were not shown what Anna told her.

On what you said about not being able to face telling the cult, well she did have the option of lying. If Anna had told her there was nothing, she could have told the cult any old c rap. There would have been no repercussions if there really was no afterlife, because they would only find out she lied when they died, and, if there is no afterlife, they would have no consciousness, they would cease to exist. Problem solved!

[–] x_offender_79 13 years ago

She was not 'stripped' of her faith, she CHOSE to believe Anna. She could have just as easily blamed the experiment going wrong, or assumed that Anna was lying and try again. But she didn't, she made a conscious choice to throw away her beliefs and to totally believe there is nothing after death, to such a degree that it drove her suicide. Honestly, if it was that easy, makes me wonder just how strong her faith was in the first place.

I only really used the word 'Atheist' to convey people who don't believe in an afterlife, whether or not Mademoiselle was actually an Atheist is largely irrelevant (to my point). My point was about people who believe that there is nothing after death, which Mademoiselle does believe at this point.

As I've said before, you seem to focus on small details that don't really matter, rather than address the main points, like I said, it's a bit weird.

I don't think that, according to your theory, her suicide has a clear cause. That doesn't mean I'm stupid (just can't bring myself to repeat what you said, don't think I've actually used that as an insult since I was 9), it means I just don't agree with you (same goes for MANY others on this board), two entirely different things.

You expressed your opinion, I disagreed and expressed mine. I was happy to leave it at that, to agree to disagree. I have no intention of changing your mind, and you will never change mine. I don't like your theory; it makes no sense to me, mine does. You don't like mine and yours make sense to you. That's fine by me.

But you just can't leave it alone, you have to ram this theory down everyone’s throats, resorting to personal insults (and not very good ones at that) to anyone who challenges or disagrees with you. Really, why? What's with the obsession?

Unless you were the writer or director of this film, you actually have no idea of the intended ending. You don't have an answer, you have a theory, and it's no more valid than any of the other theories on here. Honestly, do you have any idea what an arrogant idiot you sound?

Your complete incapability to even consider other people's opinions and the rude way that you constantly push your opinions on others makes me wonder just how old you are?

[–] submachine 13 years ago

She could have just as easily blamed the experiment going wrong or assumed that Anna was lying

She has enough experience, decades, to know the experiment was a success, and Anna was the first and only one to ever give testimony. This was, again, the decades long goal. To discount the experiment or the subjects testimony would have been completely against character and everything we saw in the movie. Therefore your statements are false, your conclusions invalidated.

Anna left Mademoiselle with nothing. Mademoiselle with nothing, a wasted past, a useless future, had no reason to live. Therefore Mademoiselle chose to die.

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[–] x_offender_79 13 years ago

Personally, I think that accepting the testimony and committing suicide goes more against her character...

She was left with nothing, a 'useless future'. No, the future is what you make it. Yes she wasted her past, but why also waste her future by choosing to go to into 'nothingness'?

The point I was trying make earlier, although admittedly, not very well, is that, in my own personal experience, people with some sort of a faith in an afterlife cope with death, in general, better than those who don't, because they take comfort in the fact that death is not the end. Those who don't believe in an afterlife tend to want to make the most of life, as they truly believe that it's all they have. This is the main reason why I have trouble with your theory.

Just out of interest, if Anna had of seen something, and passed this on, what do you think the cult would have done then? Seeing as, as you say, they were waiting on just one testimony, and were willing to believe it no matter what is was, wouldn't they just stop after hearing what Anna had to say, regardless of what it was? If this is the case, then why did she lie? Just to kill Mademoiselle? Seems a bit pointless to me. Look at it this way. Cult learns the truth, and, by what you say, they will stop whatever that is, as they were all waiting on that one answer and have no further work after getting that one result. Or, answer is found, the one person that knows it dies. You really think the rest of the cult will stop, knowing that they came so close?

Look, I'm not saying that your theory is wrong, just that I personally don't agree with it. Like I said, you won’t change my mind, and I won’t change yours. This constant justifying our points is completely pointless in the long run...

[–] submachine 13 years ago

why did she lie? Just to kill Mademoiselle?

Just? Did you see the movie? Anna was helpless, and yet found a way to kill her, and her friends, torturer, and you say "just".

As I said in the original post "Anna knows, just like the viewer knows, that discovering the existence of the afterlife is Mademoiselle's life work, so important to her and the cult that they are willing to do anything. "

Anna knows telling there is nothing, will destroy her and ultimately the leaderless, defeated cult.

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[–] x_offender_79 13 years ago

AGAIN you are focusing on a small detail and completely missing/ignoring the main point. Yes I watched the film; did you actually read my post?

I think it is incredibly naive of you to assume that the cult would break up just because Mademoiselle is dead. If that were the case, all cults would die out after the first generation of members died. Look at the ages of those involved, the older people at the house, the middle aged couple, the teenage children, all members of the cult. (And don't forget that the couple tortured Lucie 15 years earlier, when they were much younger).

It's fairly obvious that the cult was already recruiting its next generation, preparing for people to take over the work when they died. Whether Mademoiselle killed herself or died of natural causes, the cult had no intention of stopping after her death. They probably already had someone to take over the leadership if this was to happen.

Think about it, if Mademoiselle had given the cult an answer, maybe they would have stopped. But to kill herself and take the answer with her? You are suggesting that the cult would simply give up and stop anyway, without an answer. It is much more likely that this near breakthrough would only make the cult more determined in its work. The truth is, the cult doesn't need Mademoiselle to continue.

It seems that you want to find a 'happy ending', where the bad guys are defeated and the good guys ultimately win. When in fact, Mademoiselles suicide suggests the exact opposite, the cult will never stop now until they find their answer.

[–] submachine 13 years ago

You are suggesting that the cult would simply give up and stop anyway, without an answer.

Because their leader gave up and killed herself, "suggesting" the answer is the wrong one. But it was Mademoiselles quest, she was the one doing the searching. Without her leadership, it's doubtful they will continue. With their leaders defeated suicide, its doubtful they will even want to continue.

What is not doubtful is Anna won, because she defeated Mademoiselle, the one responsible for her and her friends torture and death.

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[–] iHaveNoFkinClue 13 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Anna didn't actually *see* anything, just a bunch of blue mist? So really it was nothingness? Therefore, surely if Anna wanted to 'win', she would have told Mademoiselle that, in fact, there was an afterlife. This has more potential to prevent further torture to other girls, and to stop the cult. So then why would Mademoiselle commit suicide after knowing this? I think because now, after all that research and work, her life no longer has a point or meaning (I think one of you said this) - she just found out that there is an afterlife, but actually it hasn't made her feel any better (perhaps because of how she obtained that information?) and now she no longer has purpose in life. This would actually explain why she said "keep doubting" as well - keep doubting because it's better than actually knowing. But this is actually a backfire on Anna's part because, since Mademoiselle didn't tell the cult, they will no doubt carry on the work. Therefore it's an "unhappy" ending all round, and I think that's the point of the film.

[–] submachine 13 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Anna didn't actually *see* anything

You're wrong, she saw an *afterlife*. This is why we all thought Mademoiselle succeeded in her lifelong quest, especially after she gathered the cult, whose entire purpose is to find out there is an afterlife.

she just found out that there is an afterlife, but actually it hasn't made her feel any better

Well you would need a ridiculous theory like that to support your explanation, even though it goes against everything we saw in the movie.

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[–] I_wAr_Lord_I 11 years ago

A)

Dear submachine,

I have only 1 piece of advice for you. Shut up.

I lied... I have more to add...

When debating intellectually, or as close as we can achieve to that feat on the anonymous web, don't try insulting peoples' theories by belittling them with petty names.

I can't take anything you write seriously. You merely sound like an uneducated Western who believes everyone deserves a happy ending. Sorry to burst your bubble, "bud" ; The world is a cold, lonely place. Your sheltered existence has made you foolishly bias, its evident that reading comprehension and debating are skills you lack and should not attempt in the future.

Thank you.

B)

Did anyone actually WATCH the movie?

Anyone? Anyone at all...

I saw it for the first time last night and have absolutely no doubts behind the meaning, the plot or what you guys are insisting is a twist. That's not arrogance speakings either, its called paying attention to details.

***Spoilers are incoming:

Notice when Lucie escaped, there was another girl in there already chained up. If that's not foreshadowing that there's a demented experiment going on...

Next, did you notice the facility that she escaped from? What... some crazy lady just captures girls and keeps them chained up in an abandoned factory? Let's use common sense: that factory is not abandoned and the people that own it have enough money and influence to cover up their means without any repercussions.

Correct me If I'm wrong, but I'm almost positive that the girl chained up in Lucie's flash back, the one she sees before she escapes when she hears her whimpering/screaming is the same girl that Anna stumbles upon in the basement (I use this term lightly). And yes, some can argue that in her state of panic and fear young Lucie sees adult Lucie still chained up and its a metaphor for even though she escapes her tortures, her "soul" is going to be forever locked up in the dungeon, but I don't believe that's the case.

The amount of scar tissue portrayed on the girl and the fact that her cranium appeared permanently bald shows that they have been torturing her for a long time because like the Madam said, some cannot transcend and become haunted by hallucinations. The state this girl was in when Anna released her was shocking, not something a few years of torture could pronounce, but perhaps a decade and some could.

People are wondering what this has to do with anything. Simply put, before the house was raided by the "cult" , there were enough clues presented to show a large-scale operation that would be rather difficult-close to impossible to only the be the work of a couple sadistic individuals. Which is why the only "twist" this movie had was: Lucie was able to identify the Lady, even after 15 years. Even the Madam thought it was remarkable.

C)Now, for the ending.

As the viewer, you are meant to believe Anna saw some sort of "light at the end of the tunnel" as the old saying goes. The way it was filmed is a dead giveaway that the director insists that Anna sees something, and saves her remaining strength to indulge the Madam. The whole going into her eye and seeing the magnificent colors on the dark back drop effect. NOTICE, when she leans over to hear Anna speak, that's not surprise or content on the old lady's face after hearing what she has to say.

Ladies and Gentlemen, that expression is FEAR.

Fear caused by the empty feeling when one knows its over, and there is nothing left. Not fear of the Unknown, but Fear of the Nothing.

What the Madam realizes at the end, and I apologize if this is wrong... I'm going on non verbal cues, sub titles and my own gut... That she knew the answer all along, that her life was completed not by knowing, but by looking. That her purpose was in the journey, not the destination. When she reached thesis, she told the old man... "Keep doubting" Why? Because the answer has been and always will be the same, the conclusion is FACT. The way you end up their is what the experiment was really about. Final piece of evidence, she explains briefly how in the past , their methods were less organized... Concluding that science is what the observer chooses to create an outcome with.

Cheers.

[–] submachine 11 years ago

Correct me If I'm wrong

You're wrong, dolt.

I apologize if this is wrong

Apology unaccepted. Now pay attention this time:

she told the old man... "Keep doubting" Why?

Because it was a warning. Anna was the first to speak, and what she spoke convinced Mademoiselle that there was nothing, that her entire life was a futile, evil quest for nothing. Mademoiselle ends her now-worthless life. The cult departs, defeated. Anna wins, the Martyr sacrificed.

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[–] I_wAr_Lord_I 11 years ago

Hey, it only took you 39 minutes to read a few paragraphs.

Congratulations!

I really mean that, and for your depraved nature of using the same insult "dolt"... I find extremely ironic and hypocritical.

dolt: a dull, stupid person; blockhead.

That pretty much sums up every post you wrote in your thread.

Let's break it down for you, since it seems you insist on breaking up other people's words and quoting things out of context to make yourself appear dominant.

Dull: What can I say, your arsenal of insults includes "dolt"... and that's about it.

...And you came to attack me on a thread you posts 4 years ago... That speaks for itself.

Stupid person: I could replace this with IMDb user "submachine" , since they are basically synonyms. Stupid is someone that refuses to see anyone else's perspective, even in the harsh reality that theirs is blatantly false.

Blockhead: Don't thank me, maybe you can start throwing this around. That way dolt won't be the only thing you know in that feeble excuse you call "mind."

[–] Korios 10 years ago

To discount the experiment or the subjects testimony would have been completely against character and everything we saw in the movie. Therefore your statements are false, your conclusions invalidated.

I think the statements above win the imbecility crown of this entire thread. Writing total nonsense and on top of that ruling out all opposing statements, in bulk. Wow, if you had a part in the film "The Great Debaters" you would have won an Oscar, oh great debater.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

[–] Korios 10 years ago

"The point that your pea-brain keeps missing..."

You know, insulting people you discuss with does not make you smart, it makes you a douchebag.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

[–] entropy156 11 years ago

"No, this makes her an ATHEIST."

No...it just *doesn't*. The word "atheist" comes from the Greek and means "godless" or "without a god". It doesn't mean "absense of faith". One can have faith in something or even belief in an afterlife without belief in a god.

[–] Halbermensch999 10 years ago

Your definition is all wrong. An atheist does not believe in god(s), but it does not rule beliefs in the supernatural or reincarnation. Just ask a Buddhist.

[–] x_offender_79 10 years ago

I'm really sorry, but I haven't been on this page for at least a couple of years so not 100% sure what you are referring to.

In reference to this particular post, I don't need to ask a Buddhist because I am one. For a start, Buddhists are not Atheists. While Buddhists may not worship a religious icon or God figure, they do believe in a higher being- Buddhahood, which they believe exists in everyone. When a person achieves Buddhahood- which is a state of pure enlightenment, they themselves become the higher being.

Reincarnation is a big part of the religion, as it's believed that we live different lives to help us reach the state of Buddhahood. Because of their belief in reincarnation, Buddhists do not believe in ghosts, spirits or any sort of afterlife. So actually, a Buddhist's beliefs in the supernatural and reincarnation are pretty much ruled by their religion.

As for Atheists, it is not as not simple as just saying 'they don't believe in God(s)'. An Atheist doesn't believe in ANY being higher than themselves and therefore have no spiritual beliefs at all. A true Atheist simply cannot believe in reincarnation, spirits or an afterlife because this would mean believing that part of the human soul or consciousness carries on after you die. It would be impossible to believe this without some sort spiritual belief. So again, yeah, an Atheist's beliefs in reincarnation, afterlife etc are also ruled by their religious beliefs.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

[–] Snoppkaka 9 years ago

Sorry (not really) but you are actually wrong.

The only qualification for being an atheist, is a lack of belief in any god. If you define spirituality or afterlife as god, then you are right that atheists cannot believe in these things. But is that really the definition of god?

Let's see what the dictionary says:
1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.

I can see where you are coming from if we look at b. This force, or effect, can be seen as spirituality/afterlife.

This does make sense, and is a reasonable definition of God, but only as long as you actually assume there is a god.

From an atheists perspective, there is no god. Hence, spirituality and the afterlife is not an extension of him. Therefore, calling these things God, doesn't make sense.

And there we have it. An atheist does not believe in the omnipotent being, but he can believe in spirituality or an afterlife.

[–] x_offender_79 9 years ago

No, an Atheist is not solely defined by a lack of belief in a God. If that were the case Buddhists would be defined as Atheists and as I have already explained, they are not.

Instead of looking up a definition for God for your argument you should have researched what an Atheist actually is!

A true Atheist does not believe in ANYTHING. Sure, you could call yourself an Atheist who believes in an afterlife but that doesn't make it a correct representation of an Atheists belief system and it doesn't make me wrong

[–] humanbean108 9 years ago

hello. i felt the need to pop in here for a comment as i was reading through this thread because this movie aroused my philosophy glands and i came here seeking more discussion.

i hope you will not think me rude or arrogant to offer my 2 cents on this. i am also a buddhist (tibetan tradition) and i have actually had teachers and monks who have said that many (but not all) buddhists do not really believe in god and could indeed be considered atheists....but not NIHILISTS. this has been the center of a few discussions at my meditation center and many of the teachers i have encountered have made this specification. they make a point to refer to the dangers and pitfalls of nihilism, while clarifying that belief in a god, or even a spiritual path is not nearly as important as basic compassion (something that would arguably be difficult for someone with no beliefs at all). now...are most people going to consider buddhists equivalent to atheists? no, but then, most people have a very limited understanding of buddhism anyways (myself included, i am no monk), as well as a very polarized view of the word "atheist".

for all intents and purposes, it seems accurate to me to say that an atheist is someone who lacks a belief in god(s). a nihilist, however, does not believe in anything. so, an atheist COULD be a nihilist, but is not necessarily.

it's really interesting the way interpretation can differ so much depending on our cultural point of origin/sphere of influence. the conceptual differences in culture in the east and west really becomes apparent when definitions like "god(s)" are explored, as each culture has their own deeply internalized version of what that means.

anyways, in my opinion (formed mainly from my own experiences and the discussions with my teachers and friends) being an atheist is not necessarily out of harmony with being a buddhist. i apologize for my poor/crude understanding of this, but i believe even the transcendent state of buddhahood is basically viewed as mind's pure awareness, an awakening, or a lifting of the veil that obscures. and at least in the vajrayana tradition, deities are not viewed as "real," but rather as a manifestation of that pure awareness. to me, this seems very different from believing in a god(s) that actually exists outside of yourself.

i hope i have not bored you too much, and i wish you well.

[–] DurakSuka 11 years ago

You're a stupid *beep* *beep* You idiot watched the whole movie and didn't realize that the fat old bitch was indifferent or even antagonistic towards religion? Go *beep* yourself up the ass with a shovel, you blathering sodden idiot.

Hama cheez ba-Beer behtar meshawad!

[–] Gus-69 9 years ago

Your debate skills are most impressive.

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http://viverdecinema.blogspot.com.br/

[–] submachine 9 years ago

Thanks 

http://TheMovieGoer.com

[–] skin-dancer666 13 years ago

Good theories all but i wonder if we are over analyzing here?.
Here is my own personal theory, it's a bit off the wall but what the hell, i think a big clue is in the original Greek meaning of martyr, literally witness which is flashed up in the movie, could it be that Anna tells mademoiselle that the after life is exactly that?, that we "Witness" our own deeds for eternity?, and realizing that she had led an entirely meaningless and evil existence and that any more time spent on earth would just result in more torture in the afterlife she ended it all?.....
She realized that the cult would never accept such an explanation hence the silence.
Hmm i quite like that one :)

[–] Voyons_DuCalme 9 years ago

I like that, too. Although if she continued her life in a positive way, at least there would be some good mixed in with the bad?

[–] eYeDEF 12 years ago

I wouldn't necessarily say anti-religion or anti-spirituality. Just because of Anna's conversation during torture where she begs Lucie to tell her how she got through it and Lucie responded telling her to "let go". That appeared to be a genuine communication with Lucie from the afterlife.

Interestingly, in accounts of victims who were able to endure years of grueling torture all of them mention a certain point you reach where if you learn to let go you can allow your mind to disconnect itself from the horrors of the moment. Doing so allowed them to transcend their locality and circumstances and retreat into a spiritual/psychological sanctuary that protected them from the pain. This mechanism is often cited as their means of staying sane and surviving.

Some fellows get credit for being conservative when they are only stupid.
- Kin Hubbard

[–] lunesca-303-939813 12 years ago

I'm Commander Shepard, and THIS is my favourite comment on Martyrs. :)

[–] iceknuckles2288 10 years ago

Completely agree!

[–] Pythe 13 years ago

Hmm. I suppose it is left ambiguous. I interpreted "Keep doubting" as something of a taunt. She saw herself as courageous by committing suicide and encountering this afterlife while he, should he lack the faith to follow through with it himself, would be eternally uncertain.

---------------------
"People either loved us or they hated us...or they thought we were okay."

[–] XandraB 13 years ago

After everything that Anna and those girls were forced to go through, I have to believe that they saw something. The way that I interpreted the film is that there are some things one will never fully understand until they experience it firsthand. I think that Anna relayed everything that she saw to Madmoiselle, but knowing one person's experience does not answer all the questions to what lies beyond death and there are always going to be new questions and new doubts until you actually experience it. Will the afterlife be the same for everyone? Is there a higher being? Does this higher power have a moral code? Is this moral code the same that we follow on Earth? etc, etc, etc.

I think that she killed herself partially out of guilt and partially to finally experience death once and for all. I think she and the other cult members justified the atrocious things done to these girls because they believed that it was a noble sacrifice for knowledge of the unknown. I think that after Madmoiselle realized that the afterlife was something that they would never understand the illusion was gone and she realized that these women ultimately died in vain.

[–] eYeDEF 12 years ago

That's an interesting idea although it kills me (sorry) wondering how Anna could possibly convey such opaque thoughts with such clarity that when asked if it was clear Mademoiselle replied "Like Crystal". It's difficult conceiving what Anna could have said to arrive at such a conclusion with such certainty.

As an aside we did get to see Anna's lips as she began whispering in her ear for at least a few sentences. I would love to know what a French lip reader could make of what she said.

Some fellows get credit for being conservative when they are only stupid.
- Kin Hubbard

[–] ceefoo 13 years ago

Apologies for the long post, but please take the time to read it. Ta

One thing i am certain of is, Mademoiselle received a legitimate testimony from Anna.
Whether it was the answer she wanted to hear, we can only guess.

What leads me to this conclusion is what Mademoiselle said to her male colleague prior to
her suicide.

Just picking up on some other posts:
Firstly, Mademoiselle was an atheist, her and the cult did not have any faith, that was the whole
point of the exercise. They wanted a "scientific" modus operandi to what lies beyond if anything at all.
Believers already know what awaits on the other side, that is why they have faith.

And secondly, Mademoiselle DID NOT kill herself because of guilt, because she has no conscience. You don't
do the things she has done and then start having a guilt trip all of a sudden, that is
ridiculous. A person with as much conviction as hers is not just going to kill herself
because her test subject made a bitchy remark.

There are 2 possible therories why she killed herself, and the clues are in what she
said shortly before her death. I can't remember verbatim what she said (If someone else can
recite the exact words that would be helpful) It was something like "Are you still in doubt?"
Her colleague replied "Yes" and her final words were "Keep Doubting!"

1. "Keep doubting" This is telling. To me this is not just an off the cuff remark.
There is a deep meaning why she said this. It implies that he is wrong to doubt, almost in
a mocking way as though their pursuit of "the ultimate question" had been futile. Anna's
word's either provided closure or they destroyed her.

2. What Anna whispered in her ear appeared to be a coherent message that was meant for
Mademoiselle's ears only. It wasn't a case of getting-one-over on her captures before she
died of her injuries.
What was told had a profound affect on Mademoiselle's actions thereafter as
somehow she knew it to be absolute truth. (Anna's words or those of a higher power!?)
For that reason she had no choice but to take her own life and deny the cult the answer
they'd all been searching for.

This film is meant to be ambiguous. To have a big-reveal at the end would have only provided
disappointment imo. Allowing the viewer to interpret their own conclusion makes the movie
much more thought provoking, which is exactly what the director intended.

"I would NEVER have any pornographic activities with a fooking creature man"!?!

[–] submachine 13 years ago

A person with as much conviction as hers is not just going to kill herself
because her test subject made a bitchy remark.

This was Mademoiselle's lifes work, that single remark is what she had been trying, and failing, to get for decades. Arrogance hides weakness, and the weak are easily broken. Anna broke Mademoiselle by invalidating her existence, her past, her present, and her future. That is why people, like Mademoiselle, kill themselves.

"Keep doubting" This is telling. To me this is not just an off the cuff remark. There is a deep meaning why she said this. It implies that he is wrong to doubt, almost in a mocking way as though their pursuit of "the ultimate question" had been futile.

To Etienne "Keep doubting" means continue doubting your belief in the afterlife, don't end up like...this.

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///Twitter.com/TheMovieGoer\\\

[–] AlbaITA 10 years ago

Firstly, Mademoiselle was an atheist, her and the cult did not have any faith, that was the whole
point of the exercise. They wanted a "scientific" modus operandi to what lies beyond if anything at all.
Believers already know what awaits on the other side, that is why they have faith.

That's completely wrong. Mademoiselle was not an atheist, far from it.
Atheist do not need any "scentific" modus operandi to what lies beyond, simply because they do not belive there is an aferlife. Although, there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.
Furthermore, for most atheists the burden of proof lies on the theist to provide a rationale for theism, not on them. So why would they want to discover what lies beyond?
Mademoiselle was the leader of a secret philosophical society seeking to discover the secrets of the afterlife through the creation of "martyrs".
The tortures were made in the belief that their suffering will result in a transcendental insight into the world beyond this one.
In religious experience transcendence is a state of being that has overcome the limitations of physical existence and by some definitions has also become independent of it, and that is what they were trying to achieve by torturing those girls. They believed in it so much that they went on for decades in torturing those girls.
Now, I don't if all this was about religion, but I do know that it has nothing to do with atheism.

[–] forecastfortoday 13 years ago

There is something that I don't think people are really paying attention to that actually might say a lot about the twist.

Does anybody wonder just how Anna survived being skinned alive? At the end of the movie, she appears to be catatonic, and staring at something above her. Could it be that what she may have still been seeing what she saw while being martyred? My interpretation is that if she did indeed see something, whatever it was she saw kept her alive during and after her martyrdom.

Let's face it, her surviving the martyrdom was beating all odds alone. When being skinned alive, you HAVE to be kept in a sterile environment in order to stay alive. I'm pretty sure being held on a rack under hot lights for two hours isn't exactly a sterile environment. She may have been put in a saline bath after that, but still, those two hours would determine a lot in whether one were to live or die.

The fact that she survived such a procedure long enough to tell about her experience says quite a bit. I have a hard time believing after such a horrifically traumatic experience, one would even be able to speak.

Also, perhaps it's just me, but I don't think they showed that one last shot of Anna in the bathtub for nothing. I think that short scene alone holds a secret within in itself, it has some sort of significance to it.

Ha, made you look!

[–] submachine 12 years ago

The fact that she survived such a procedure long enough to tell about her experience says quite a bit.

About her strength, which follows perfectly with the explanation that she retained the ability to defeat M by lying.

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[–] kristoffer-storvestre 12 years ago

The cult entering the story is NOT a plot twist, it is an explanation and expand the plot. There never was anything that came out of the blue nor anything we where sure was one thing only to turn out to be something completely different. We knew someone tortured girls, we just didn't know why. The closest thing to a plot twist in this movie is Lucies hallucinations and it was fairly obvious what was going on from the start. If they had gone with Lucie and Anna in the house with Lucie being attacked by the hallucination the whole movie only to learn that it was actually just in her mind in the end, that would be a plot twist.

[–] the_cool_88 12 years ago

Complete and utter pseudo-intellectual nonsense, submachine. Didn't change much since what I saw back in your 2009 posts.

I'll repeat, just so it gets in your dumb head:

The ONLY way she could make Mademoiselle kill herself, is to say there IS afterlife, it IS beautiful, it IS nothing that words can describe, and it IS expecting her.

Why? Because if she said there is NO afterlife and NO judgement, it wouldn't be a reason for M's suicide. Why would it be? Years of research and there's your answer. No afterlife. No judgement. Live until you die and do whatever the hell you want. Being the cruel bitch she was, Mademoiselle would gladly carry on living and indulging in sin before passing away.

You see now?...

_______________
God is Dead. (c) Nietzsche

...Nietzsche is dead. (c) God

[–] submachine 12 years ago

if she said there is NO afterlife and NO judgement, it wouldn't be a reason for M's suicide. Why would it be?

I already explained why it would be you dolt, the same reason anyone else commits suicide - they have nothing to live for, no future, no present, wasted past. (Sound familiar? )

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[–] the_cool_88 12 years ago

And what exactly in the movie hinted you at the supposed fact that, if there is NO afterlife, Mademoiselle has nothing to live for? Why is supposed Anne's statement that there's no afterlife would render Mademoiselle's past "wasted"? She got her answer - and the ANSWER is what Mademoiselle worked for (martyred innocent women).

No, my poor pseudo-intellectual friend, your logic is false. From what is revealed in the film, the ONLY ANSWER that could force M to kill herself is along the lines of "There is afterlife. I've seen it. It's beautiful. There's no judgement. Come".

Can't you get that in your stubborn head?...
__________________________
God is Dead. (c) Nietzsche

...Nietzsche is dead. (c) God

[–] submachine 12 years ago

And what exactly in the movie hinted you at the supposed fact that, if there is NO afterlife, Mademoiselle has nothing to live for?

The part where she picks up a pistol and shoots herself, like every other suicide victim she has given up on life, because the answer from Anna destroyed her.

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[–] the_cool_88 12 years ago

Proves nothing in relation to your theory. The fact of suicide is not a fact of Anne's answer being negative about the afterlife. It is completely the other way around. I'm only pointing you at the logical conclusion - the ONLY way to make M committ suicide is to tell her the afterlife is waiting.
________________
God is Dead. (c) Nietzsche

...Nietzsche is dead. (c) God

[–] submachine 12 years ago

The fact of suicide is not a fact of Anne's answer being negative about the afterlife.

Fact: Suicides are based on negative outlooks.

Fact: "Keep doubting" is just more evidence that she has given up on life.

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[–] the_cool_88 12 years ago

So you base your whole theory on the assumption that suicides are the outcome of negative outlooks (which is not a fact, by the way. I personally know of suicides driven by the expectation of something great).

Yet you completely skip the logic of Mademoiselle gladly killing herself after being told the most beautiful, unbelievable things about the afterlife. Because why? Because that's what she wanted to hear. Anne told her what she wanted to hear. Only she didn't mention that M would be judged for her actions.

I'll repeat: that is the ONLY LOGICAL REASON for Mademoiselle to kill herself. Now wrap your mind around that.
__________________________________
God is Dead. (c) Nietzsche

...Nietzsche is dead. (c) God

[–] submachine 12 years ago

So you base your whole theory on the assumption that suicides are the outcome of negative outlooks

No, it's a fact, not an assumption.

No, there is far more evidence, for example "Keep doubting". Read first, then post.

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[–] the_cool_88 12 years ago

It is not a fact, it's an assumption. If it's a fact, provide sources. That means go over all suicide cases and conclude they're all an outcome of negative outlooks. Because as I've said, I've *personally* known suicide victims who committed it in expectance of something great.

"Keep doubting" shows EXACTLY the selfish, vile nature of Mademouiselle. She got her answer - and why would she tell anyone else. This was her work, and she got the fruits of it. She was tricked into expecting a beautiful, impossible-to-describe afterlife. All she got was hell.

Do you or do you not understand.
______________
God is Dead. (c) Nietzsche

...Nietzsche is dead. (c) God

[–] submachine 12 years ago

"Keep doubting" shows EXACTLY the selfish, vile nature of Mademouiselle.

She wasn't selfish, she was involved in a cult of close associates for decades.

"Keep doubting" was a final warning for her friend Ettiene, as in "keep doubting the existence of the afterlife, otherwise you will find out it doesn't exist and you will up ruined like me...BANG!"

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[–] the_cool_88 12 years ago

Close, but no cigar. Such explanation would be plausible if Mademoiselle wouldn't kill herself and simply disappear, leaving the cult to doubt. But she shot herself, and obviously it would minutes later be revealed to the cult.

What would logically follow: the cult sees their leader dead from suicide. The only question would arise, "Why? What did Anne tell her that made her kill herself?" Only that the afterlife is beyond words and there is no judgement.

"Keep doubting" as a warning to not end your life would only work if she disappeared and was never to be seen by the cult killing herself.

When she's taking off her jewelry and make up, we can clearly see she's ready and EAGER to see what she's been told is expecting her in the afterlife. She tells Etienne Anne's words were clear and there is no room for interpretation. "Keep doubting" is said in a half-sarcastic tone, as if "Mhm. Keep doubting, Etienne, you poor soul, while I enjoy what's coming". BANG!!!

Got it?
__________________
God is Dead. (c) Nietzsche

...Nietzsche is dead. (c) God

[–] submachine 12 years ago

the cult sees their leader dead from suicide. The only question would arise, "Why?

The same reason everyone else commits suicide, nothing to live for, worthless past.
Obviously if it was good news, they know M would be sharing it with the cult.

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[–] the_cool_88 12 years ago

...And you conveniently skip every other point I've made in the post.

First: not "everyone else" commits suicide because of a worthless past, grim future or a bad life. That is a cold real-life fact for your stubborn mind, which is stuck in a box of what you've read online or heard on the TV.

Second: Mademoiselle is CLEARLY eager to hurry up and die. No time for explaining, no need for sharing. Why? Because YOU think there are some strong bonds within the cult? Mademoiselle didn't greet anybody, she ran straight to Anne, anxious to find out. Her selfish nature is revealed by the first shot of her - exiting the car not by herself, but after the valet opens the door.

Just let go off it, kiddo. It's done.

________________
God is Dead. (c) Nietzsche

...Nietzsche is dead. (c) God

[–] eYeDEF 12 years ago

I don't think it's clear cut and it's wrong to conclude that your perspective is the only logical explanation.

Yes. It's true that some people commit suicide because out of the expectation of something better or even sheer morbid curiosity. I had a friend in high school that had EVERYTHING going for him, but he did have a fascination with death that he ultimately pursued instead of life. I agree, it happens.

But submachine's also right in bringing up that many people also kill themselves after determining everything they've worked for in life had been in vain.

Now, what would make her kill herself before speaking to the cult? You deduce she was so selfish that she couldn't wait to kill herself and enter the afterlife. Yet if she's in such a selfish rush why not yank the gun out in the dungeon and off herself right there? It's perfectly reasonable to expect that, having learned the "Crystal Clear" answer of which she "could see no other interpretation" of there being an afterlife that she would want to bask in glow of triumphalism by announcing to the cult the revelation they had worked throughout their lives to answer. It would be rewarding (and personally gratifying, selfishly speaking) to exult in the glorified ego trip of disseminating the truth as a cult leader to her disciples. Nor would it require any extraordinary effort or cost her anything except the few extra minutes which amounts to nothing since the afterlife isn't going anywhere.

I think her saying 'keep doubting' is an essential clue. You think it's clear she said this half sarcastically and looked eager to go to the afterlife. I encourage you to watch the scene again as I'm not sure how you could think this since it's not at all clear. Why? She doesn't for a second express happiness, joy, or serenity in her facial expressions that one would expect of someone that had just discovered there to be an afterlife and anticipated going there; not even a smile. Instead she appeared stoic and her disposition gloomy and the 'eagerness' could just as easily be interpreted as an eagerness to put herself out of her misery.

Now, if she was told there was no afterlife then it makes more sense why she didn't want to confront her disciples with the news. Saying she would have just disappeared doesn't take into account submachine's point that people do kill themselves upon learning the devastating news that everything they thought was true is false. That she had planned to announce her discovery is not in doubt, as she had prearranged with Étienne to do so which would have been utterly unnecessary if in a selfish rush to kill herself. But Étienne knocking and imploring her for more info gave her the chance to make the snap decision to impart her wisdom to just him and save herself the humiliation. Hence the 'keep doubting' is key and seems far more consequential than your interpretation of half jest.

Again, I don't believe it's clear cut and there's enough gray area that I don't believe submachine can claim a definitive answer either. But I do believe if you're going to argue using logic, common sense, and empirical evidence that submachine's conclusion appears more reasonable.

Some fellows get credit for being conservative when they are only stupid.
- Kin Hubbard

[–] submachine 12 years ago

"Mhm. Keep doubting, Etienne, you poor soul, while I enjoy what's coming"

eyeDEE already owned you, but just for fun:

E: So there is something (definitive that Anna communicated to you).
M: Of course.
E: Was it clear?
M: Crystal clear. (in her statement that there was nothing.)
E: And precise?
M: It admitted of no interpretations, Etienne. (Again, audience assumes one thing at this point, director intends something different)

This crystal clarity lead to M's recognition of not only absolute failure, but the torture of innocents for no reason at all, and concludes with her unflinching self-destruction.

M: Could you imagine what there is after death?
E: Are you all right? (E senses a change. E is confused. E assumed, like the audience, that they were already talking about this, and there is no reason to imagine it since M got all the answers about it. No, Madame is NOT all right.)

M: Could you?
E: No, mademoiselle.
M: Keep doubting (that there is anything after death, because there is nothing).

Shocking clarity for those capable of processing it. And if you need more confirmation, she then shoots herself. Anna wins, Martyrs transcends.

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[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] scjordan-1 12 years ago

"Fact: "Keep doubting" is just more evidence that she has given up on life."

Fact: Just because you put fact in front of your sentence doesn't make it a fact. It's still your opinion.

"She wasn't selfish, she was involved in a cult of close associates for decades."

SO? CEOs can be part of a corporation for YEARS even work their way up to get in that position and still be selfish. I don't see your point. She could have easily been using these people the whole time saying, "I will share the information with you as long as you give me money and torture girls!" People do use people and if she was this type of person then your theory completely goes out the window.

"No, there is far more evidence, for example "Keep doubting". Read first, then post"

This is open to interpretation. You say she is depressed because of the news yet she doesn't even look or sound depressed. She actually sounds calm. Why even talk to the last guy? I would be more inclined to get behind you if it happened like this. She is taking off the crap from her and the guy tries to open the door but it is locked. She doesn't stop and he is banging on the door and rising his voice calling out her name and finally she whispers "Keep doubting" and bang! The way I saw it was she was throwing it in his and everyone's faces that they DON'T know because in fact she was selfish and this whole time it was about HER doubts. She was just using the others to get her way.

FACT: This is evident with her asking him "Could YOU imagine the afterlife?" and him saying, "Well No...I" Exactly! You can't imagine but I know so "Keep doubting" (This is my take and not actually a fact. I'm just making fun of sub for being an ass)

Mademoiselle is completely calm and not depressed in this scene showing that she most likely thinks that there is going to be this wonderful afterlife. Image Anna DID tell her that there is an afterlife that is greatest thing she has ever experienced. Would the lady not be tempted to commit suicide to stop wasting time and experience this wonderful afterlife? I think so. Just watch the eye scene. It zooms into her eyes and shows this beautiful light.

Also watch the scene when Anna tells Mademoiselle the answer. It is long and Mademoiselle opens her mouth and tries take everything in. It would have been A LOT shorter if she told her there was no afterlife. Plus, the whole point was to completely separate mind/spirit from the body/this world. I really don't think she have been in the frame of mind to trick Mademoiselle into killing herself. Anna was completely separated from this world and when she returned she would have just told what she had seen. They completely took out the humanity and logic out of Anna and she was just being used like a tool.

Anyone can put fact in front of a sentence but that doesn't make it fact. This is still opinion. I'm sure you are just going to call me stupid and use "FACTS" to prove me wrong but your theory isn't as airtight as you would believe.

PS. If you want to think this then that is fine but quit calling people stupid and dolt and acting like you know so much more than other people. This is still your opinion whether you think you right or not. People see things differently but this doesn't mean you have to be a complete ass about it.

[–] submachine 12 years ago

the whole point was to completely separate mind/spirit from the body/this world. I really don't think she have been in the frame of mind to trick Mademoiselle into killing herself. Anna was completely separated from this world and when she returned she would have just told what she had seen. They completely took out the humanity and logic out of Anna and she was just being used like a tool.

That is what the director fed you. Of course we all believed that while watching the movie, a mistaken belief is imperative to any plot twist. The problem is your inability to second-guess yourself and question your prior assumptions.

By continuing to believe in your theory and even defend it publicy, after watching M kill herself, is comical.

The suicide is the directors way of exposing the truth of what really happened. That is why it and other evidence like "Keep doubting", is in the movie. Those events are supposed to lead the open-minded viewer to question, to realize we were wrong, to arrive at the truth.

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[–] scjordan-1 12 years ago

If find it comical that you aren't even open to anything at all. I'm not saying either theory is right but I'm just putting out that your word is not final and making counterpoints in your theory. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and without knowing what the writers meant, anyone can draw their own conclusions. Also, you don't have to be a dick to everyone who doesn't agree with you.

I can see it either way. She does say that there is no room for interpretation and there defiantly is not room for this if there truly IS no afterlife. Also, she could be saying "keep doubting" because there is no afterlife and it is better to NOT know that there is no afterlife. It is better to "keep doubting". You could even say that she was told there is an afterlife but also God and/or hell when she dies so instead of living in constant torture of what is waiting for her in the afterlife, she is going to end it now and kill herself. Better "keep doubting" then know what waits for you ahead. My point is more that it is open to the viewer's point-of-view and that either way there is nothing set in stone yet you want to put people down and say I'm so right and you're so wrong. Have fun with that!

Two people can look at a coin and see two completely different things. Heads or tails. All you want to say is it is heads heads HEADS but at least keep your mind open to others opinion instead of being a complete *beep*

[–] submachine 12 years ago

she was told there is an afterlife but also God and/or hell when she dies so instead of living in constant torture of what is waiting for her in the afterlife

That's wrong on many levels.

First, Anna didn't see "God and/or hell".

Second, M, like everyone else, is already aware of the Heaven/Hell theories, and doesn't seem to be concerned about them in her quest.

Third, she would have shared that information with the cult.

Your theories don't make sense.

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[–] scjordan-1 12 years ago

I'm not saying these are all my theories. I'm saying that people could think these theories and I've actually read that some people do think all these theories BUT that doesn't make them wrong. You are so set on your ways that you criticize and put people down and say you are wrong and I am right yet your theory is not bulletproof from criticism. Not everyone believes in the theory of evolution which is why it is called a theory. Your theory is no more or no less valid than anyone's theory. Who are you to say what Anna saw and didn't see? Some people even think that M had too much knowledge of what only God knows so she killed herself and told E to "keep doubting". I could see that too. Trying to achieve divine knowledge when we are only human. Yet you call people stupid and say I'm right since I use "facts" which are truly opinions and I'm not down with that. Everyone can interpret the ending their own way. Whether Anna lies or tells the truth or tricks M to killing herself or if there is no afterlife or there is but M will have to answer for her sins. I don't think either one of these is wrong. Other people thinking different things proves that this is open to interpretation and that no theory is set in stone. You seriously have taken over this board and anyone who posted something you don't like you either attack it or say it is completely wrong. Get a life and let people think for themselves. If you are SOOOOOO right then they will come to your conclusion.

WOW! After looking at your post history why am I even wasting my time on your loser ass? You are a complete dick! You took over the Donnie Darko board a while ago and this one. You must be very insecure to have to put down everyone on this website. I'm guessing you get your kicks this way. Nice talking to you... Buh bye!

[–] submachine 12 years ago

Some people even think that M had too much knowledge of what only God knows so she killed herself

What dolt thinks that? That would contradict what the director has given us, namely her entire lifes work is to get knowledge of an afterlife. And also, she only knows what Anna told her.

If you are SOOOOOO right then they will come to your conclusion.

Most do, in all my threads, like the one who posted just before you. Just not the stupid ones

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[–] MaynardMorrissey 12 years ago

fully agree with the_cool_88.
Whatever Anne told Mademoiselle, it made Mademoiselle so curious, that she instantly killed herself to see what Anne saw.
Whatever it is, it's so interesting to Mademoiselle she won't share it to the others of the cult.

Just look at Mademoiselle taking off her make-up. It's like she removes her old life, because something new is waiting for her. She goes to a place where she doesn't need any make-up - or something like that :)

[–] dbb79 12 years ago

Actually you should speak for yourself since i never assumed that the mademoiselle did win. It was obvious she was whispering something that would help to destroy the cult. Now, how does that make this pretentious gore fest, this torture porn, any more worthwile viewing? Its still crap no matter what. 6/10 if you like this kind of film, if not 5/10

[–] submachine 12 years ago

6/10 if you like this kind of film

6/10 first half
10/10 second half

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[–] Red_Barn 12 years ago

So there IS something?
Of course
Was it clear?
Very clear
And precise?
There was no room for interpretation

Could you imagine what comes after death?
Are you OK Miss?
Could you?
No
Keep Doubting
-------------------

There really IS something. Miss now knows what it is, so her life no longer has purpose. This is the basic message of the film: once you know the meaning of life [and death] then life no longer has meaning and you must die. You must keep doubting in order to live. We are not told what it is, so we still doubt. We may continue to live.

[–] submachine 12 years ago

So there IS something?
Of course
Was it clear?
Very clear
And precise?
There was no room for interpretation

There really IS something

Yes, there was an answer. That answer was that there was nothing.

That whole scene was the director setting up the shocking twist.

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[–] Red_Barn 12 years ago

I don't agree with you.

[–] TheSummer2012 12 years ago

Okay, here is my take. I don't think there is any one explanation or interpretation that is clearly right or wrong. There are arguments for and against the interpretations put forward in this thread.

I tend to agree with the interpretation that Mademoiselle was told "there IS an after life" and it is beautiful, etc. From that moment on, she knew there was no reason for her to stay in this earthly existence - she longed to join the after life.

One could even assume that the whole reason she and her cult engaged in those experiments was because they longed to die but needed to know whether or not there was an after life. I admit this is not really supported expressly in the film but the quest to find out about the after life was surely more than a mere hobby to find an answer to an interesting question. It was an obsession, a sick desire that led them to commit the most horrific acts. Mademoiselle asks: "Did you see it? The other world?"

When Mademoiselle says "Keep doubting", I did take this as support for this theory because she uses the word "doubt" rather than "believe". I am not sure whether this is also true for the French word that was used but one doubts whether something exists. In other words: One doesn't quite believe it. When she says: "Keep doubting", I thought she was mocking him: "[I know there is an after life], you keep on doubting."

If she had been told there was NO after life (and had killed herself because her life project had been in vain), she would have mocked him by saying: "[I know there is no after life, it's all a sham but you just] keep on believing."

I also think the fact that she was removing her make-up, etc., was to prepare herself to join the after life - cleansed and pure.

The only doubt I have - and this has been pointed out above - is that Mademoiselle doesn't seem overly happy or ecstatic. She seems rather downbeat - but that's maybe because she's always a grumpy old b*tch.

There is one additional point I would like to raise: Anna is still alive at this point. After Mademoiselle dies, the cult members would surely try to speak to Anna.

[–] hogso 12 years ago

For what it's worth I agree with pretty much all of X_offender's thoughts on the film, and those with a similar interpretation. I applaud submachine's enthusiasm on the meaning of the ending (and respectfully disagree entirely), but am also pleased that his petty insults were not risen to as there was really no need for that, in what has otherwise been an interested thread.

I do not know who has seen the 'making of' feature of the film, or interview with the director, but I intend to watch them later today as they are on my DVD copy. If anything is mentioned there that will shed some light on the ending, which hasn't been mentioned already, I'll report back. I don't expect there will be though, as even if the director did intend for there to be a specific meaning behind the end (I would go as far as saying he definately did - I'm not sure if it was in this thread or another, but a comment about it being a satire on french society seemed incredibly apt), I don't think he would divulge all of it.

What would be the fun in that?

[–] submachine 12 years ago

I applaud submachine's enthusiasm on the meaning of the ending

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[–] submachine 12 years ago

When Mademoiselle says "Keep doubting", I did take this as support for this theory because she uses the word "doubt" rather than "believe". I am not sure whether this is also true for the French word that was used but one doubts whether something exists. In other words: One doesn't quite believe it. When she says: "Keep doubting", I thought she was mocking him: "[I know there is an after life], you keep on doubting."

"Keep doubting" means continue doubting your belief in the afterlife, don't end up like...this.

If she had been told there was NO after life (and had killed herself because her life project had been in vain), she would have mocked him by saying: "[I know there is no after life, it's all a sham but you just] keep on believing."

"Keep doubting" was a final warning for her friend Ettiene, as in "keep doubting the existence of the afterlife, otherwise you will find out it doesn't exist and you will up ruined like me...BANG!"

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[–] Darth_Fett 12 years ago

you are wrong Movie Goer

the problem is your misinterpretation of "Keep Doubting"

she asked E. "can you imagine what comes after death"

the reply is, "no.. i.." which simply means he can't imagine what it might be like. not that he doesn't believe in it. He just got finished telling everyone there is an afterlife and everyone would be told what it was like. He had a smile on his face when he said it. Someone that didn't believe in an afterlife would not have reacted that way.

"keep doubting" meant, keep doubting that you can't imagine what comes after death.

[–] submachine 12 years ago

"keep doubting" meant, keep doubting that you can't imagine what comes after death.

? what a dolt.

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[–] submachine 12 years ago

based on what?

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[–] spungex 12 years ago

This *beep* thread is still around 3 years later ?
God submachinegun, you make me rage so hard with your arrogance.

[–] submachine 12 years ago

hehe

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[–] fghg6756 11 years ago

There really IS something. Miss now knows what it is, so her life no longer has purpose. This is the basic message of the film: once you know the meaning of life [and death] then life no longer has meaning and you must die. You must keep doubting in order to live. We are not told what it is, so we still doubt. We may continue to live.

Red Barn, what you said makes the most sense on this board, thanks :)

[–] wakanasakai 11 years ago

Once you know the meaning of life (& death) then life no longer has meaning and you must die. You must keep doubting in order to live.

You were probably talking about the movie, & I disagree with that interpretation of the movie, but for real life, that's demonstrability wrong for some of us. Why? Because some of us (example = me) would say that there's no evidence that there is any 'meaning' or 'purpose' to life (although we can give our own lives a purpose of our own choosing if we try to), so we don't have any doubts about whether there is or isn't an afterlife.
---
IF I want your opinion, I'll GIVE it to you.