MovieChat Forums > Child 44 (2015) Discussion > Was Russia really like that? Does Russia...

Was Russia really like that? Does Russia still act like that?

posted 8 years ago by james__uk
42 replies | jump to latest

I am really interested in how Russians see themselves. I am currently reading about Stalin, and the progression from Bolshevikism to Sovietism.

Certainly movies/TV about past British imperialism (Pirates of the Caribean, Black Sails), create questions about being British, and how I want to my country to be. Other movies like "Belle", show how many people fought against evil in our country. It is right that these people should have stories told about them. Like they are heroes.

Do shows like Child 44 create a debate in Russia? I sometimes feel that the flow of history is repeating itself, and Russia is moving further away from western democracies. Russian commenters often say that western information and democratic politics have no value.

I'm sure to like individual Russans, but the historical Russian political culture seems very strong and cruel. I often feel sorry for individuals who seem to be victims. Do Russians feel the same way about western culture? What is it that I am missing? Some secret to the Russian soul, which needs strong leadership and an end to all enemies? Is Putin the child of Stalin? Was Stalin a good man? Would Russians vote for Stalin to return?

The movie Child 44 depicts a simple situation in Russia, where ordinary people were suffering tremendously. I'm very glad I was not a kulak (peasant farmer) when Stalin wanted them destroyed. The system is depicted as very self-serving and cruel. I'm sure this is not true of most Russians.. How could it be?



[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

Russia banned "Child44" in cinemas so there was no debate except denying facts. Besides they truly believe they gave freedom to Europe what is ridiculous in the context of Eastern Europe.
The movie shows reality and history that took place those times. But do not expect that Russians will tell you the truth. Most of them love Putin and are certain kind of nationalists ready to deny everything they did wrong to other nations and own people in the past.
Putin is a former KGB, Stalin was not a good man, was cruel and he ordered to kill lots of people including his family. Some people in Russia would love Stalin to come.😒
When you say something critical about Russia or Russian history and politics you can expect they will attack you and say it is a lie and they are good but the others are bad. I believe and hope that not all Russians are like that but I met mostly the other ones.

[–] carrot_handvo 8 years ago

I believe and hope that not all Russians are like that but I met mostly the other ones.

Racist Sammy

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

If saying the fact that I met mostly Russians who do not accept any critics of their country politics is rascist then you have no idea what rascism exactly is.😕

[–] carrot_handvo 8 years ago

You don't like Russians
That is assured

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

No, I am not against Russian people, I don not like Russian politics, it is a difference.😑

[–] NikolaAvramov 8 years ago

Nope.
You're just being a hypocritical nationalist and thinly disguising your hatred with pretentious half-truths and forgeries.

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

Nationalist???😂, are you talking about yourself? Sure,sure you gave such a huge freedom to half of Europe that you made those countries depandant from Kremlin orders - Russian definition of freedom. Your post only proves I was right.

[–] NikolaAvramov 8 years ago

I never gave huge freedom to half of Europe.
What are you talking about?

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

Do not play an idiot, man. 😕

[–] NikolaAvramov 8 years ago

Give an idiot remark - receive the idiot response.

Obviously you think I'm Russian.
I'm not.

Do you now realize how insanely canned your response was?
We are not in a "Team Fortress 2" game. You are not Blu and I am not Red. Disagreeing doesn't mean I play for the other, evil team.
Can you grasp this or am I talking to a brainwashed troll?

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

You write you are not Russian but have definitely Russian names. You can also come from former Russian Republic or have Russian roots.
So do you think that Russia gave freedom to Central-Eastern Europe after 1945??? This is what we can read from your previous posts.😕

[–] NikolaAvramov 8 years ago

No.
I am not Russian.
I never lived in Russia.
I never lived in USSR, nor come from any USSR republic, nor do my ancestors.

The closes I've got is a single great-grandma having a last name that is most likely Russian. So - it's one 8th of my origin at best.

Your ignorance on etymology of Slavic family names is behind your prejudices.

Let me give you a concrete answer: my grandfather was in a German concentration camp and survived by living off of worms in wood he worked on in a mill.
He got there by defying fascist authorities.
And 30 years later he only once mentioned that, in the camp, he was regularly temporarely blinded with hot iron. And had been tested for human endurance for low temperature within a Mengelle program. He was one of 2 rebels that survived the test out of 32.
This is something that was very difficult to get from him.

The other grandfather had to become a partisan in order to avoid having to butcher people of "inferior ethnicity", a.k.a. non-Catholics and non-Muslims, Jews and Gypsies. He spent 4 years in the woods getting shot at and drinking puddle water.

The former grandfather's aunt had her neighbor's kids deliver he her son. In a bag. As a bloody pulp. They butchered her son and gave him to her in a bag.
That's fascist occupation.

A great-grandfather, a wealthy peasant, had been almost executed for not assisting in the execution of partisan rebels.

Another great-grandfather, an air-force pilot, spent 16 years locked in a solitary confinement after being arrested by fascists (the communists continued his confinement because they hated the previous government).

All of those were brought by fascists.
And all of those things stopped when they were pushed back with lots of firepower.
A partisan that participated in the liberation told me himself that they couldn't drive the Germans away without the Soviet heavy howitzers and missile artillery.

So - yes. Not having Nazis around lets people live in peace, work and have a family.
If they weren't pushed back - I wouldn't have been born.
So - *beep* your prejudices and hatred.
And *beep* your Nazi-sympathies.

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

I did not ask you about whole story of your family, I asked you a simple question about freedom of Eastern countries after the war. So summing up:
You just answered that Russia and Stalin gave Central and Eastern Europe freedom after the war.] Therefore people of Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, East Germany, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. was killed by communists and were under control of USSR and still they wanted to be free from USSR??? This is freedom according to you, how poor.

You are an idiot saying about me as a Nazi-sympathiser cause non of my arguments or questions to you prove that. Hatred cause I asked you a simple question??? very poor argument.😪
And yes, your name is Slavic, if you deny it yourself, it is just stupid.

[–] NikolaAvramov 8 years ago

I don't care about what questions you want answered and what answers you will or won't accept.

And you don't get to put any words in my mouth that I won't speak myself.

I spoke facts, you speak fantasies and hatred.

Yes. That's a Nazi M.O.
Literally.
"We must occupy everybody otherwise the Soviets will eat living children and degenerate the continent with their inferior genes inspired by ruthless politics of a morally bankrupt system".
Check Goebells.

I never said my name isn't Slavic.
Are you seriously that dumb that you can't see that I said it was?

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

Are you seriously that stupid that you have to manipulate???
Read your own replies, you said YES to my question.
Calling me a Nazi proves how weak arguments you have.😪
If you love communism so much stay with it, but don't say that communism gave freedom.Neither fascism nor communism gave it to no-one.
And start writing books btw.,good imagination you have, it was a good story, almost from American movie.

[–] NikolaAvramov 8 years ago

You don't get to frame what I mean, what I think and what I say.

I know exactly what you're trying to pull and the *beep* you're trying to pass.
Not going to happen.

Each and every Nazi in living memory use the exact same "Oh, you're labeling me?? I'm the victim and you're the bully" *beep* to steer the topic away from their convictions and the manipulation they're trying to pull.

It doesn't work.

I don't love communism - fascists were killing everybody all around.
Your precious, perfect fascists you're so desperate to defend.

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

Dear Boy with fake accounts, you have big imagination and less knowledge - before you write fake stories about your family and grandfather, you should check that in Auschwitz there was no mill. Congrats to your imagination, you watched too many movies.😂

[–] NikolaAvramov 8 years ago

The mill was a part of a working camp right outside Novi Sad. Hungarian fascists rounded up people for Gestapo check-ups. Nobody got to eat, but he applied for work in a mill, because fascists wanted skilled labor. Those that weren't - starved.
While working there Gestapo found out who assassinated a Hungarian occupational bureaucrat
and he was identified as one of the 32 involved rebels, after which he was taken to Mauthausen concentration camp.
The other rebel got huge property in Germany as part of reparations.
Grandfather got nothing.
The communists ordered him to formally forgive the German state for what was done to him. He refused - and the story was covered up, he was framed with affairs, he was ostracized after a fine career as a construction inspector.
In the real world.

You do realize that all you Nazis keep losing because of this liberal relationship with reality?

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

My advise is go to good psychiatrist, you have Nazi obsession.😂
You are a complete liar - now you are writing about camp in Novi Sad, earlier you wrote how Mengele treated your grandfather. Mengele worked only in Auschwitz. Oh my, go to bed. Goodnight.😂

[–] NikolaAvramov 8 years ago

And you can't imagine Mengele delegating experiments to personnel in Mathausen?

Yes, you are the same exact material as those deranged, decadent, lying *beep*

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

Oh, now your grandfather was not in Novi Sad but in Matthausen.😂 No, Mengele did not give any orders to the camp. Learn better. Gooooooodnight and tomorrow make appointment at a right doctor, you will talk about your Nazi obsession.😂

[–] NikolaAvramov 8 years ago

Mass graves are filled with idiots who can't distinguish reality from fiction.

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

Right man, you are talking about yourself.😂 Jeez, you really need a psychiatrist.

[–] NikolaAvramov 8 years ago

You really think it's all a game, do you?

[–] Ginnn 7 years ago

Oh look, russians are here calling everything a lie and that we are all nazis, lol how predictably russian of them))

It is fun and games until someone gets caught. Then it's rape.

[–] NikolaAvramov 7 years ago

I'm not Russian.

[–] Scipii 8 years ago

The Soviet Union in the 30's-early 50's was close to what the DPRK is like today.

[–] velvetjoneslives 8 years ago

Are you actually citing Pirates of the Caribean and Black Sails as historical pieces? If so, then I weep for our future.

[–] Protozoid 8 years ago

I may be wrong, but here is my explanation:

This movie is about how national pride prevents a country -- any country that doesn't permit dissent -- from scrutinizing itself.

Could you imagine a film like this being set in America, Britain, or Sweden? The "conspiracy" elements would be dismissed out of hand as impossible.

So, the folks telling this story were very clever: make a movie about your country, starring your stars, but set it in another country -- one that we've demonized to an extent -- so that the premise is easier to believe.

It isn't just about Stalinist Russia, if it's about that at all. It's about us.

[–] carrot_handvo 8 years ago

This was DELUSIONAL propaganda with zero basis in "facts"
That's why it was Banned.

[–] Protozoid 8 years ago

Not propaganda. Child 44 is more about England. Anybody who wants to know what the historical basis of this story is should look up child abuse scandals in the United Kingdom. Some of them very conclusively lead to Thatcher's inner circle (her friend Jimmy Saville was known to be a child predator, as were one of her aids and her legal counsel!). Maybe this never happened in Soviet Russia, but I wouldn't be so hasty to assume this kind of thing never happened, anywhere...

[–] carrot_handvo 8 years ago

The fact that it's not set in the UK proves it's propaganda

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

Carrot it is funny when you say it is not propaganda. You never have been to Europe, never have been to Russia and seems you do not know Russian history. All the more I doubt you watched "Child44", so why do you post here such opinions? Writing fro writing? Trolling for trolling????😕

[–] carrot_handvo 8 years ago

You never have been to Europe

Proof?

, never have been to Russia

Have you?

and seems you do not know Russian history.

I do know Russian history. It's called research

All the more I doubt you watched "Child44", so why do you post here such opinions?

There is a reason I haven't watched it

Everyone here calls you out on being a troll.
You're a laughing stock who will defend propaganda endlessly

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

Proof??? Have you been to Europe? Where?

I was in Russia.

If you have not watched the movie do not write it is propaganda.

If your knowledge is what you write than your research is worthless.

Only you write about me as a troll in the meantime people in fact write you are a troll, so...

Difficult to treat you seriously sometimes, really.😕

[–] carrot_handvo 8 years ago

I was in Russia.

Proof?????

If you have not watched the movie do not write it is propaganda.

I read the book. It's propaganda.

We sight history and specifics while you just attack people, call them trolls, and post emoticons.

So let me argue like you:

You are difficult to understand the knowledge because 😌😌😌😌😌 yes I win

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 8 years ago

Your comment is so childish that I will not waste my time for further exchanging posts because it is not even discussion.😕

[–] carrot_handvo 8 years ago

Annnnd on key you name call and no argument 😪

[–] Protozoid 8 years ago

I read the book. It's propaganda.

We sight history and specifics while you just attack people, call them trolls, and post emoticons.

Here's a Reddit thread that sheds some light on this issue: https://m.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3cc8wi/supposedly_the_red_ripper_evaded_detection_for_so/?ref=readnext_9

Short version: Child 44 is not baseless propaganda and historians themselves will tell you that the historical backdrop is quite plausible.

Long version:

'The Red Ripper' was a man called Andrei Chikatilo (also referenced as The Butcher of Rostov), who murdered at least 53 people in the USSR from 1978 onwards. It was well over a decade until he was finally caught, possibly because the concept of serial killings was not recognized within Soviet ideology. This is what interested me in this instance.

Without a more specific range of literature I have only been able to find a text by Robert Kalman, a Russian-born Canadian police investigator, published in 2014. I did also come across a researcher working in this specific field, but unfortunately that work has yet to be published.

In 1925 all Soviet studies into the philosophy and psychology of criminality were centralized within the Moscow Government Institute of Studies of Crimes and the Criminal. From this time and throughout the following decade such studies became increasingly focused on Soviet ideology. A Communist society, according to the ruling Soviet regime, did not produce crime; any serious social ills were anachronisms from pre-revolution which would eventually die out.

In this climate the study and research of psychopathy and killing soon degraded. Kalman claims that those refusing to have their work impinged by this trend were frequently fired, persecuted or even murdered. Serious crime therefore remained merely a symptom of error which was redeemed through hard labour.

Kalman continues that this state of affairs created a society unsuited to confronting serious crimes like serial killing, preferring to instead claim that such aberration existed only in the Capitalist West. Experts and law enforcement agents were often inhibited from even suggesting an alternative theory, lest they incur the wrath of those more doctrinally orthodox.

For these reasons, the USSR supposedly became a victim of killers such as Chikatilo, because their strategy of avoidance had degraded their ability to properly identify, profile and ultimately detain serial killers. Agencies therefore laboured under the false assumption that linked murders were in fact random anomalies. Kalman claims that these counterproductive strategies endured until the very final years of the Soviet Union.

Also, if you read the Wikipedia page about Andrei Chikatilo, you will find that his trial was very suspicious and appeared to be rushed to avoid uncomfortable lingering questions about unsolved murders attributed (probably falsely) to Chikatilo. He admitted to killing dozens, but the judge was clearly prejudiced, the prosecutor called him on it, and the judge replaced him! Clearly not a very fair trial, regardless of his (partial) guilt.

[–] IL_Maestro 8 years ago

I am not going to answer your question because i have no relation to Russia, UK or US
but the answer to your question can not be accurate 100% no matter what
you would have to live there at those times to see for yourself
the USSR collapsed and US is still strong as it was so they can say pretty much anything about USSR and people would think it is the truth
both sides can use propaganda to promote their agendas and say whatever they like about the others
expect to find Russians who loved Stalin and USSR and hated US and also you will find the opposite and both believe they are right
so now i am taking sides because the Americans and English could stay anything about the Russians and if they collapsed instead of the USSR then the USSR would've done the same thing to them and accused them of everything.

"It is never about what happened, it is only how you look at it!"

[–] NikolaAvramov 8 years ago

You are obviously not observing your sources carefully enough.

Simply put: your impression of Russian history is painted black by people that want to destroy them as a civilization. Of course they would lie.
You're literally getting the exact same material on Russians that Nazi did.
How else did you think they got the brilliant idea that Russians are sub-humans that need to be destroyed? From Hitler's speeches?
No.
They got it from persistent indoctrination within education.
Painting the Russians in the exact same way this movie does: as violent, unshaven, incompetent, degenerate apes.

Try to observe things more closely. Try to observe people interpreting other countries for you.
And you'll start having truth as an asset.

[–] jaimeroberto 8 years ago

"Would Russians vote for Stalin to return?" I don't know if they would vote for him to return, but he would have some support. When I was there in the late '90s there was a crowd of protesters every day in front of the Kremlin with a picture of Stalin. Many important figures in Russian history are buried in the Kremlin wall. Yuri Gagarin had the most flowers in front of his grave, but Stalin had the second most. My impression is that the supporters were mostly old people who were hit pretty hard by the transition from Communism, and they are probably mostly dead by now, but there definitely was some level of support for Stalin at the time.