I had to watch this movie twice to figure most things out. One thing I still cant figure out is, was Tim Allens character Chet in on the whole setup?, with the watch and all that, ? if someone could explain, id appreciate it, thanks!!
shareSorry dude, no answer from me.... More questions though :)
What was the purpose of Tim Allens character anyway??
Why the hell did his wife screw over the other dudes wife??
Wait...I thought his wife was in on it too. Therefore, I don't think she was screwed over by Tim Allen's (character's) wife!
...or did I miss something too??
No I don't think Chet or Chet's wife was in on it. I think Joe Mantegna's character was the ringleader, he was connected to Chet, he saw the gimmick of the marbles at the dinner party, and it was his assistant who gave Mike's wife the 'fake numbers' (though we also know that Mike's wife was in on the scam too, she wanted Mike to fight and be rich like her father and brothers, so whether she actually couldn't get in touch with Chet's wife is up to debate but I say she faked all that, she faked the debt too, in order to manipulate Mike). But Chet was just a drunk star and the others used their connections through him to set up Mike.
This makes the most sense.
shareThe only thing I have to go off of was what I thought when I watched it.And I think his character was in on it.The constant drinking,the fact that his wife screwed them over,and that you never really got a straight answer on why he was in the bar,by himself,that's the vibe I got.I'm thinking Allen's character owed money,and that was a way of repaying a debt.
shareI don't think Chet was in on it. Mike saved Chet's life and Chet wanted to help him out. Two things changed Chet's mind. 1) Mike's idea about the balls/handicap created an opportunity, which Chet's manager (Jerry Weiss, played by Joe Mantegna) wanted to use. 2) Mike selling the watch.
The way I saw it, Jerry used his close relationship with Chet to turn Chet against Mike. Something like, "Chet, you tried to help this guy - you bring him to your house, you make him a producer, you give him a $10,000 watch. And what does the ungrateful prick do? He sells the watch! Drop him." Jerry's interest was to steal Mike's idea and use it to cash in with the fight promotion.
Sadly, there's no answer. It's a major plot hole (that and how did someone get their hands on the bullet casing). Though Pulpfriction certainly gives it an admirable try, there's no way to explain why a big-time holiday star would wreck the life of Mike and his wife after he saved his life. Also, no explanation as to why Mike failed to directly contact Chet and confront him.
Normally that kind of plot hole would kill a movie for me....but for some reason, I was able to look past it. Probably because the last 20 minutes were so enjoyable.
If you all remember,.....his wife tried and tried to call Chet's,....I think that's all that was needed on screen.
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There was a very brief scene near the end where Mike was leaving the arena and he's confronted by his wife, who slaps his face. Obviously she was trying to coerce him to go ahead and fight.
As for "Chet Frank", the whole bar fight had to be a set up. Mike later asks Chet at the movie set why he'd been in the bar alone, but never gets a decent answer. I think the fight promoters figured Mike was the last piece of the puzzle to give their "event" the credibility they wanted, and he screwed them by kicking the crap out of their "champion". A fantastic ending.
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That was not his wife who slapped him it was his attorney. She wanted to smoke and was told to go outside. His wife was in a different outfit.
shareLove this movie. Didn't see that ending coming. Don't know if the setup started from the bar fight forward but it seems as tho' the opportunity to profit from Mikes expertise without adequately paying him couldn't be passed up. His wife 'sold him out' by blabbing to Chet's wife about the shooting, giving them ammo, and seeking out the ammo, to fight against his lawsuit, and she seemingly got a loan from the loan shark under the advisement of the scammers to do the deal with Chet's wife. The woman who slapped him in the tunnel was the lawyer who was smoking outside and was, I imagine, disappointed that he was leaving 'without a fight'. His wife was chillin' in the stands with her girls, living it up.
shareNow I know why there's no complexity in movies - because people can't seem to draw a straight line.
The whole thing was a setup. The bar fight, everything. We don't know why, but you do see Tim Allen & crew hanging out at the fights, he's a compulsive drinker, and the general presentation of him seems to be as a down-and-out D-list kind of star. So you can come up with many justifications yourself for why he might be in the position to want to help setup a guy.
It's a good movie. It's just a David Mamet movie, and if you don't like his movies well you won't like this one.
It's not a plot hole. You just don't understand it.
Chet wasn't in on the plot. Chet is simply selfish. Mike saved Chet in the bar, and Chet gave him a watch. Chet and his wife break all contact with Mike to avoid getting stung by the stolen watch fiasco, and because Jerry was working with the fight promoters to steal Mike's idea (and Jerry probably advised Chet to break contact).
And how did they get their hands on the bullet casing? They say this directly: Mike's wife screwed him over. We never see where the casing goes, but there's no reason to think the cop would keep it. He probably threw it away or left it with Mike, and the wife got it, and the rest is obvious.
It's not complicated if you actually pay attention. There was no grand scheme (something I originally got wrong myself but I watched the movie again and it's really quite straightforward if you follow the dialog and events). Everyone except Mike is basically looking out for themselves.
It's not a plot hole. Chet was just a fat, drunk, lazy star who did what others told him to do. He was more interested in whether there was enough vodka in his orange juice. I think Chet was just a vehicle that lent credibility to the scam. Chet didn't send the watch, Joe Mantegna's character sent the watch. Mike's Wife and the others (not chet or chet's wife) were trying to scam Mike into fighting professionally. They all wanted the money - the money of a new league on TV, the money of rigging fights, and for Mike's wife the money her father and brothers made by fighting. So the wife pretended she was in hock to a loan shark, and all the other stuff made Mike change his mind to earn money to help pay the widow, and his wife's debt.
There was something in Mike's past that was never quite revealed. Not sure what it is but I think Mike may have killed a man in the ring once.
SPOILER!!!!!!!!
The wife of Mike Terry's character can be seen on the TV at the end with Tim Allen's character and his wife. She was in on the set up and so was Tim Allen and his wife. He went to the bar on purpose, as part of the set up.
Mike Terry's wife made him go there to ask for a loan, which is why they knew he would be there at the same time.
Maybe I'm a little slow. Lol! I saw Mike's wife with Chet and his wife, but why would Mike's wife set him up eventhough she'd benefit from any deal he made simply by being his wife?
Mike's wife was from a wealthy Brazilian family and was tired of having to eke out a living with a poor instructor. I believe her brother had the quote of, "The princess is tired of living with a warrior.", or something like that. She never actually lost the $30,000 on fabric because she never borrowed the money from David Paymer(loan shark). She was already buddy/buddy with Tim Allen and his wife through Joe Mantenga(film producer) via Ricky Jay(fight promoter) via her brother's business relationship. They just wanted the system so they could continue to fix matches without the fighters figuring it out and wanting a cut of the action. They wanted him to fight and win the $50,000 just to throw him a bone for the idea and so he would just go away and keep quiet. The wife picked up the shell casing for leverage against Emily Mortimer(his lawyer) in case they tried to get payment for his intelectual property rights for his handicapping idea. It was just an insurance policy in case they figured it out.
shareMaybe I'm wrong, but I think you're all reading way too much into this plot, which is usually a sign that it was simply a weak one.
Why would they(see consipiracies above) go through such an elaborate plan to steal the idea of the pebble nonsense, when the protagonist's wife (if she was in on it) could have just sold them the idea without getting her husband involved? If she was unhappy as some of you say.
I say 'pebble nonsense' by the way because that's all it was. Something like that would never happen in MMA, no matter how desperate the promotion outfit. No MMA fan wants to see a potentially good fight handicapped by a gimmick.
It was plain stupid.
Bottomline, I was hugely disappointed by this movie. I remember hearing it touted as a serious MMA-type movie, but it turned out being another cheesy, unrealistic martial arts movie: kind of a throwback to the old ninja/karate kid crap of the 80's.
Honor and all that BS? C'mon. Jesus.
Also, there was some horrible exposition in this film.
Take the whole scene where the protagonist explains to his wife why the cop gave the attorney who <cough> the window a "pass." It was sick with it.
That was only one of many. Go back and take a look.
No offense to his fans, but I seriously can't understand why David Mamet gets so much praise sometimes. This didn't seem like a genius at work, really.
Funniest thing of the whole movie though, for me anyway, was how the protagonist was considered as a consultant to make the movie Tim Allen's character was starring in more "authentic."
Is that satire? Is this movie one big gag?
Sorry, scummy, But I believe hudak is correct.
It makes sense and that's how Mamet writes, i.e. twists upon twists
to the end.
In fact, the tag line of any Mamet movie could be "Trust no one."
You obviously were not watching the movie. Ricky Jay says, Mike figured out a way to fix the fight without the fighters knowledge...which means more profits to the promoters and company. The handicap is a gimmick, and that's the whole point. Thanks for stating the obvious.
These are for you McNulty!
She knew that Mike would never ever go along with anything dishonerable (the fix) so she helped set Mike up and I am sure that she was soon to leave him for the "high life".
The watch, I believe, was meant to entice Mike into the "high life" but it was unseen that he would give it to the cop who tried to pawn the thing.
damn, i didn't realise thAT! WELL SPOTTED. (damn caps lock)
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Chet was not an active participant in the scam, but his indifference, his overreliance on paid help to run his life, created conditions that made it possible.
Chet didn't give Terry a watch, which is why Mantegna abandoned the dinner. Mantegna gave Terry the watch in Chet's name--and probably told Chet that "hey, I'm inviting him to dinner, sending him a gift from you as a token of your appreciation." Mantegna's a manipulator and opportunist who uses Chet to enrich himself and create opportunities for himself. Chet has become so big and so used to being taken care of that he doesn't see anymore.
"Chet was not an active participant in the scam, but his indifference, his overreliance on paid help to run his life, created conditions that made it possible."
Exactly.
Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. - Bill Maher
it's been a few weeks since I saw the movie, but wasn't it emily mortimer's character who slapped him as he was leaving, and not his wife? his wife would've wanted him to leave.
shareyes it was emily mortimer who slapped him. she was outside smoking after being told she could not smoke indoors. i enjoyed it and cannot understand why people find this film complicated. seems straightforward to me. a bit odd the way mike's 'finishing' move involved a wall assisted move, should have been in the ring. notice how its the same move Kiefer Sutherland(24) used at the end of season 2(i think), the fight in the stadium. also odd how no further security try to stop him after he takes down about 5! and the crowd watching think its fine too?!?
for mike to be given the redbelt at the end. it seemed as though it should have been for him remaining pure and honouring the code through great adversity. how whould the grand master know mikes struggle? he could have had metal elbow pads for all he knew!
still i really enjoyed the atmosphere. strangely remimded me of 'ghost dog'.
'be sure to drink your ovaltine'
Read all these posts, and I think people are thinking way too much on this. Here is how I see it:
- Chet goes to a bar after a hard day, looking for a fight to blow off steam.
- Mike sees the fight, saves Chet from a beating. Pure coincidence.
- Chet tells Jerry to send a gift to Mike as a thank you. Jerry saves money buy buying a watch from a "questionable source".
- Chet invites Mike and wife over as thank you and to pick Mike's brain.
- Chet thinks Mike can help him look "more real" as an action actor.
- Chet's wife hits it off with Mike's wife, likes the fabric, wants to work with her.
- Mike shares training techniques and "marble" gimmick with Chet and Jerry at dinner.
- Mike gives the Cop the watch, who sells it, finds out it is stolen.
- Mike tells Jerry the watch he was given is stolen.
- Jerry realizes Mike could make things messy for him and Chet, ditches Mike at dinner, advises Chet to end all contact with Mike and wife.
- Jerry, being a businessman, takes the marble gimmick to Ricky Jay, they partner on promoting the fight. He covers his ass against lawsuit
- Jerry knows that if Mike sues, he is in trouble, so he has his wife reach out to Mike's wife to dig any dirt on Mike.
- Mike's wife, knowing she needs money and Mike isn't going to be able to provide it and possibly "star struck" by attention from famous people who can make her famous as well, sides with Chet and Jerry, tells Jerry about the gunshot.
-Chet has nothing to do with the "behind the scenes" of the fight show. From this point, his part is done.
Chet is self-centered and egotistical, but probably operates at too big a picture level to be involved in any major scamming. The key is to think of Chet (and his wife) ad Hollywood actors. They are aloof and prone to attitude changes when everything (or everyone) doesn't fall over for them. Chet probably liked Mike until he realized Mike sold the watch (How dare Mike choose cash over a gift from the great Chet Frank!?!?!?!) At that point, he is done with him.
Excellent job helping those who had trouble with the "overly complicated" plot (or "weak writing" as others have complained about) utazdevl. I would also add this:
-No, Mike's wife did not keep the bullet casing. Snowflake offered to clean up the mess and did so. Joe simply gave the casing to Snowflake to dispose of with the other debris. All of these events happened quickly enough that the debris wouldn't have been disposed of yet, and Mike's wife, most likely at the behest of Jerry went digging and found it.
That seems another oft mentioned point of contention on here.
Good point about Snowflake clearing up. The fact he told terry not to ask too much, just before it was revealed that his wife grassed on him, suggests he might have known a little bit more himself.
shareutazdevl's explanation is the best and only one. Other posters read too much into things. And the crucial and pivotal point, as described by utazdevl: "Jerry realizes Mike could make things messy for him and Chet, ..., advises Chet to end all contact with Mike and wife."
My contributions:
Mike's wife is already dissatisfied w/ the relationship and is looking for an excuse to get out. She is way too "high maintenance" for Mike.
Jerry is Chet's "handler" in that no one is able to get to Chet w/o going through Jerry.
THANKS utazdevl.
Ok but i don't understand why the lawyer slapped him, all the rest makes sense.
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Ok but i don't understand why the lawyer slapped him, all the rest makes sense.
There's a noble explanation or a cynical one. The writer deliberately lets you pick your own. (And if you only think of one initially, and the other one hits you the next day, so muh the better).
Noble Explanation
Her life had been a mess, and she was hooked on prescription drugs. Then she met Mike and she began to turn her life round. His staunch moral code restored her faith in society.
So when he was walking out, she slapped him because he was giving up. Rather than do the honourable thing and blow gaff (which might have been difficult both physically and emotionally), he was walking away and letting the bad guys win.
She slapped him partly to jolt him. She was saying 'You're better than this!'. But she also slapped him because she didnt want him to let her down. If he turned out to be a smaller man than she had believed him to be, she'd have been severely disillusioned and might have returned to the depressive state we saw at the start of the movie.
Cynical Explanation
She said "Remember what's at stake here! We need that $50,000. I've stuck my neck out for you. Git your ass back in there and fight, dammit!"
thx for the rundown. helped out a bunch. also, 'chet frank' is a great name.
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "... I drank what?"
Good job on the whole recap. I saw it pretty much the same way. Mamet's style is to always leave some things unsaid. They're not plotholes. It's just that Mike doesnt know [u]for certain[/u] what Chet's was, and so there's no reason for the viewer to know [u]for certain[/u] either.
It's not that it doesnt matter what Chet's role was. But the movie gives you some facts and let's you deduce the rest.
As you say: "Jerry realizes Mike could make things messy for him and Chet, ditches Mike at dinner, advises Chet to end all contact with Mike and wife."
One rational explanation is that Chet asked Jerry to organise a gift for Mike. Jerry picks up a hot watch for a few grand, but tells Chet that it was $100K (say). Jerry can't afford to let Chet find out about the rip off. Due to his alcoholism, and his total reliance on Jerry and others to do everything for him, Chet was easy to manipulate.
This is exactly correct!! 100%..I basically wrote the same thing. Hollywood people who were pissed about the watch situation but not involved in the big scam. Very shallow people.
shareThat's a good question. If he was in on the whole thing it makes little sense when his wife stiffed terry's wife and she was the sister of the guy organising the fight. However, there is also the matter that the magician guy who was demnding a drink was also the guy who was wearing the mask at the tournament... makes the whole thing seem like a set-up.
shareWhen i started reading this thread i was suprised at the lack of understanding in the film, but thankfully the last few post's restored my faith in other film lovers out there.
Regarding the slap in the smoking area, i think quite simply she was giving it "...are you nut's to walk away now? Get a grip and go sort that *beep* out, your mate died over this!"
Not sure about the magician stuff, he certainly seemed like a local in the bar.
Still, I think thats the genius of the work, it really is open to interpration.
Loved it!!
gonna watch all Marmet's films now!!
A.
To me the movie works a lot better as coincidences that occured to the finale. If you try and make out that it was one big conspiracy from the beginning than its just so far fetched and unnecessary to achieve the end means that it would spoil the whole movie.
shareIt is amazing that people put not explictly explaining everything as 'plot holes' a plot hole is when no matter how you look at it the plot does not work unless mind bending leaps of imagination are made (i.e. time travel, other dimensions, aliens, cloning...or possibly the worst ever dreams).
Red belt stands up perfectly as one poster a few back explained very well, although he really shouldnt have had to.
Is it no wonder we have scenes in big budget movies where everything is explained, the worst in my mind (I saw recently) being in Bad boys 2 where someone actually explains the act of throwing a gun down to set off a mine...awful!
One last point specifically about red belt...with the bullet case it is possible it is a fake and not the one fired...dont get too hung up on that idea...as either way it is not a plot hole and does not require further thought!