MovieChat Forums > Ashes to Ashes (2009) Discussion > Is anyone else not buying this purgatory...

Is anyone else not buying this purgatory/heaven/hell bollocks?

posted 14 years ago by ExcellentBulletproofVest
34 replies | jump to latest

I'm sticking with the original ending.

Sam Tyler went into a coma, he came out of it, he decided the new world was too bland, so he threw himself off, and as he was dying from his injuries, his mind recreated 1973 for him.

Alex Drake went into a coma, had read Sam's files and had some crazy idea that it might all be real, and imagined the same characters, then had some more weird fantasies about an evil devil man and Gene Hunt being a prophet, then went into the light and woke up from her coma a hospital bed, or finally died.

It makes a lot more sense than what was presented in the Ashes Finale, and here's what Matthew Graham (creator of LoM) had to say about it

“We had to be strong and stay true to the line that we always intended.

“For me, it was much more important that there was a strong emotional closure to the story. That was more important than a massive twist, although I still think we managed to try and pull the rug out from under the audience a little bit.

“I have to say, it’s nice to be able to talk about it openly,” he laughed. “I’ve always had to be so coy in the past.

“To be honest with you, I was always slightly surprised that people thought there was a genuine mystery. To me, it was very obvious – he got hit by a car, the doctors and nurses were speaking to him over the radio and through the television and he was in a coma.

“The fact is that he just began to suspect that there seemed to be a way in which he could change his world and so, obviously, naturally once he’s there for quite a period of time, he begins to assimilate so much of that world into himself. He starts to question whether he was ever anywhere else.

“There was always a bit of that, but I never thought the audience would fall for that. And it was brilliant when they did, the first time around. But then we realised we had to start being a little bit more careful about saying definitively, on the record, that he was in a coma.

“We realised that that mystery was one of the things that gave the show some spice. So then we just kept that going.

“But I’d always intended for him to wake up.

http://blogs.menmedia.co.uk/ianwylie/2007/04/life-on-mars-the-answers/

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He knows the score
He gets the women
And he kills the bad guy!

[–] Cartman401 14 years ago

Respectfully I have to disagree.

A purgatory state makes much more sense, more so than a dream world revisited by one person, let alone two (or as it turns out, more).

If you can equate a coma like lucid experience as being a dream then its a stretch that Sam would manage to return to the same scenario after jumping off the car park (or whatever it was). It make no sense whatsoever that Alex would have the same dream after being shot.

However if it was purgatory where dead/dying people go, then it makes perfect sense how this could happen, and how you could return. So Sam wasn't dying, he got better, but he was pretty damn close to death during many of the episodes, as was Alex until she actually did die.

I think the problem you have really is that for LoM they had an idea of the show for a very long time, and then it was such a hit they made a sequel not planned out quite as well. Yet somehow they managed to eventually tie it all up in a better conclusion than the one they gave us for LoM.

[–] px54 14 years ago

"I'm sticking with the original ending."

Ashes was the original ending...if Life on Mars had continued to a 3rd series you can bet they would have used the same ending.

Life on Mars only ended at series 2 because Simm wanted to renegotiate his contract, and they didn't come to an agreement.

[–] scousethief5 14 years ago

Sorry but it ws bollocks.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] ExcellentBulletproofVest 14 years ago

No it wouldn't, look at the quote from the creator of the programme in the original post, that's from an interview after the Ashes Finale. The only reason they didn't go with it again in Ashes is because they'd already done it.

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He knows the score
He gets the women
And he kills the bad guy!

[–] jbaddock 14 years ago

I didn't like it at all (see my other posts). I think a lot of the emotional elements of the finale could still have been achieved with the coma scenario. (And perhaps done even better - Alex doesn't really seem to react very much to the fact that she's dead and isn't going to be seeing Molly for quite a while at the very least.)

Jim

[–] music_lover921 11 years ago

No it wasn't the original ending otherwise the whole of the series franchise would've been better planned out and better executed. Hell they couldn't even resolve the cliff hanger and unresolved questions in series 2 properly like Alex's finger prints on the gun and chain used to cover up summer's murder, the confession about the future, the masons, Alex's relationship with her daughter etc etc. Couldn't even be bothered with proper storytelling. Matthew Graham talked about the show's ending coming up during mid series 2 during a read through with the actors and that many of their ideas came from Eternal law another supernatural program that they were working on at the time which became clearly obvious when you see it onscreen.

No, you would have to be a gullible fool if you believe that it was planned all along. They just used Life On mars an John Simm as an excuse especially when their original statements about the Life On Mars ending completely contradicts their statements about Ashes.

[–] Nriks 8 years ago

Life on Mars only ended at series 2 because Simm wanted to renegotiate his contract, and they didn't come to an agreement.

They didn't come to an agreement because Simm knew it was bogus. LOM ended perfectly, but Gene Hunt became big business so they wanted to keep making episodes. Simm said no so they rebooted with a new character.

And if the afterlife rubbish had always been the intention, why do they wait till series 3 of Ashes to Ashes to even introduce it? Why do all the characters suddenly develop these fears and backstories that they've never had before. How come Shazz dies before Sam but isn't part of his 1973 purgatory? If Jim Keats is the anti-Gene Hunt why does he never appear in previous series?

None of these things make sense because the writers were making it up as they went along.

[–] ExcellentBulletproofVest 14 years ago

There's also the whole business about Purgatory being for people who are actually, y'know, DEAD, rather than in a coma.

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He knows the score
He gets the women
And he kills the bad guys!

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] TheGingerReview 14 years ago

Anyway, no one in the show said purgatory. It's just a limbo. You don't have to be dead to be in limbo. Sam was in his coma, therefore on the edge of death, so he was in this copper limbo, but couldn't fully join because he was alive, hence all the voices from the other world. When he died, he went back to limbo until it was time to move on. I don't really see what's so confusing.

"We came on holiday by mistake!"

[–] hadmatter 14 years ago

There is also not anything in the series that says it has to be religious. How can you not by this "purgatory/heaven/hell bollocks" when they are not actually in the show?
If people in the audience choose to imbue characters with aspects that relate them to the devil or some sort of god, that's their business, but A2A doesn't necessarily endorse that interpretation.

I am the sod-off shotgun.

[–] liberalmedia 14 years ago

Anyway, no one in the show said purgatory. It's just a limbo.

A2A co-creator Matthew Graham employed the term purgatory in his end-of-series interviews. See the link and quotation below.

http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/s49/ashes-to-ashes/news/a221321/graham- explains-ashes-to-ashes-finale.html

Graham, who penned the last story, discussed the world where DI Alex Drake found herself in the show's first series.

He told The Guardian: "She finds herself between heaven and earth. When we discussed the philosophy behind it we decided that, seeing as how the cosmos was infinite, everybody who dies can afford to go to some kind of purgatory plane that is relevant and significant to them.

"So we liked the idea that coppers with issues would go to a place designed for coppers. And a coppers' paradise surely has to be The Sweeney, or The French Connection if you're an American."

Graham continued: "That's the place where you've got all the freedoms and, therefore, all the chances to make all the big mistakes that could lead you to hell. But all the good decisions would lead you to heaven."

I would note that the scripts and action seem to contradict Graham's words, given that...

...they spent two and a half seasons depicting Viv James as a reliable, principled copper and then let one sin -- i.e., bringing Sachs the gun -- done to spring a troubled teenage relative from jail, lead him straight to hell, all because Keats got to him before Gene did.

[–] kevmat86 14 years ago

In the show they don't mention purgatory, heaven or hell. Gene only says it's a place for coppers. And Keats implies Limbo when he can't say the last word ending with "O". Matthew Graham is more a faith oriented person so his personal view on the matter is something closer to purgatory. But that doesn't mean it actually is purgatory in the show. Co-creator and writer Ashley Pharoah according to a couple of interview I read is not really a religious person and to him Keats is not the devil. It does not make sense to him that the Devil would try to mess with Gene. So in the end they pretty much wrote the ending leaving every detail ambiguous so that anybody could make their own opinion as to what the world is. Everybody should ignore what they said in interviews and focus only on what was said on the show. If they wanted the world to be purgatory they would have said purgatory in the show. By the way I'm not a religious person and I thought it was amazing.

[–] wilmawilcat 14 years ago

I'm sorry to say that they clearly intended for Keats to be the devil. I saw it coming a mile off when they put a space heater in his office. I told my husband that when I saw it. Keats wasn't comfortable unless it was hot as Hell.

[–] kevmat86 14 years ago

I know they clearly intended for Keats to be the devil. But they never say the word Devil. Anyone could make they're own opinion on the matter. Nothing is force fed to us. If you don't like the devil aspect you can think up something else. They left enough room so that the viewer can take ownership of the show.

[–] wilmawilcat 14 years ago

Keats is The Devil; nobody can make up their own opinion on it unless they're in denial.

[–] ExcellentBulletproofVest 14 years ago

Why can't it be a delusion?

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He knows the score
He gets the women
And he kills the bad guys!

[–] azz1844 13 years ago

You don't need to believe in heaven, hell, or purgatory, to believe that this is what is going on in the show. It's FICTION.

It would be stupid of me to watch Lord of the Rings and say, "I think the whole story was just a hallucination of Aragorn, because I don't believe Hobbits, Wizards, Orcs, and talking trees really exist".

Either way, there is no real Sam Tyler stuck in a coma dreaming of being in 1973, nor is there an Alex Drake lying in hospital with a bullet in her brain trying to work out how to escape purgatory.

I'm pretty sure most people who DO believe in hell, heaven, and purgatory, don't believe that a dead policeman called Gene Hunt is managing a limbo-state just for coppers. So just go with the fiction!

If you really can't bear to do that... then fine, it was a come-induced hallucination in both cases. That's just nowhere near as fun or interesting.

[–] music_lover921 11 years ago

I don't see how the idea of purgatory (bunch of made up BS) that has been recycled and used in the media so many times can be fun or interesting. It makes the whole thing look cheap, boring and repetitive. At least life On Mars had a more subtle and original ending.

[–] peggygeordie 11 years ago

Or at least "a" devil. He has every hallmark of the Screwtape type.

[–] music_lover921 11 years ago

Oh My God. It doesn't need to be said! It was seen throughout the entire season 3. It is called reading between the lines. Everything in that final season said purgatory based on a catholic/Christian belief. It is not rocket science, it was ambiguous as a stripper in a strip club. It was certainly not Hinduism, Confucius, Taoism, Buddhism, Shinto, paganism or any other mythic religion that exist.

Keats was the devil, you can see how he tempted every around away from Gene who was made out to be Saint Michael while Nelson was Saint Peter who guarded the gates of heaven aka the railway arms. He tried to tempt Ray into joining his team, he tried to talk Shaz into resigning, he tried to tempt Alex away from Gene first by using Sam's disappearance to convince Alex that he killed Sam and then through the use of Molly's scarf and the promise that he could take her home, he tried to make Chris into his own lapdog. Then he took Viv to hell as he did to that female inspector in episode 4. God his office even indicated that he was the devil due to his heater overheating the place and then you have the snarling at the end to Gene. And just like in catholic/Christian/Judaism belief you have free will. You choose god and Gene then you go through heaven by either dying in Gene's arms (saint Michael who will forgive you as seen with Mac and Summers and comfort you while you die) or by entering into the railway arms. If you choose Keats (like Sacks did when he made a deal with Keats in episode 6 for immortality - note that Keats had meetings with the inmates before talks broke down as noted by Gene himself - coincidence? I think not) or by committing a Sin and die in Keats arms like Viv at that female detective did then you go to hell. Sheesh it is not rocket science you know.

[–] cstu11 10 years ago

As a huge fan of LOM I'm glad I didn't bother with A2A.

[–] Mageta44 13 years ago

I liked the ending, but I have just one huge question: If this is all a fantasy world of Gene Hunt, then how can (younger versions of) family members of Sam and Alex exist there? That makes no sense to me?!?

[–] azz1844 13 years ago

The way I understood it is that Hunt's reality is based on the real world, in particular elements of the past that are relevant to the coppers who are stuck there before "going to the pub" (i.e. moving on). This helps the police officers learn things about their past that had always troubled them, allowing them to move on peacefully. So the family members, and others who aren't dead police officers, aren't real, and are just a part of Hunt's reality.

[–] theemaster 13 years ago

Best ending and story was the season 1 ending.. (and I mean life on mars) the heaven/hell crap was just bad! Life on Mars Season 1 had real heart.. with sam meeting him mum and the story dealing with his dad.. it’s really been downhill from there.. I enjoyed ashes to ashes.. but it’s kind of fodder to the brilliant season 1..

I mean they made it work and it kind of makes sense.. but since there is no heaven and hell.. that just made it worse! :D

There's only heaven :) but I guess since this show is built on the so called idea that "criminals" are bad people they just had to carry on that theme..

[–] MBerlin84 13 years ago

They never really mentioned anything about hell/heaven/limbo, did they? It could still all be a construct of the mind in a coma. To me it can still be read both ways.

Alex was always obsessed with psychology so it would make sense for her subconscious to try and uncover the deep nature of her "constructs", wouldn't it? And she would dream up a similar world to Sam's because that's one of the last things she's talked about with her daughter and she'd been interviewing Sam before he committed suicide. So that incident and his story were still in her mind being processed when she was shot.

So...you can still read it as a coma story, if you like.

[–] jane_bront 12 years ago

At the risk of missing out on a possibly great show, I think I'm going to pass. After finishing LOM I couldn't help myself and decided to get spoiled about A2A. I can only form opinions about what's been said here and on wiki. The whole purg/heav/hell idea doesn't sound as interesting to me as the way LOM ended. Plus, a LOM sequel without Sam is like Corn Flakes without the milk. Yes, I loved Gene Hunt but it was all about Sam for me. I think ending the show with Sam's jump or the discovery that 1973 was "reality," while his memories of the future and the indications of a coma were hallucinations, would have been great.

~"Chris, am I weird?"
~"Yeah, but so what? Everybody's weird."

[–] peggygeordie 11 years ago

You are indeed missing out on one of the best shows I've ever seen. I've seen both shows multiple times, but if I had to never watch one again and keep the other, the keeper would be A2A. I don't know what you think you have to lose by giving it a chance. And I wouldn't judge the ending without seeing it - for many of us, it was absolutely wonderful.

[–] Zz9pza 11 years ago

I just saw "The Gene Genie" as sort of a Davy Jones for cops.

I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

[–] saxonman63 12 years ago

For Christ sake, if you don't like it don't watch it! I'm amazed at how many morons on here babble on about how crap it was, waste of time, etc, yet if that's the case then why did they bother watching it?? It's probably nearer to the truth to say that IMDB attracts sad little trolls who seek out popular TV shows only to slag them off without even watching them, thereby making them feel good about themselves because they've gone against popular opinion. And no, it's nothing to do with 'everyone's entitled to an opinion' either. Trolls offer little constructive criticism beyond calling something crap or a waste of time. Please, go elsewhere to try and bolster your zero self esteem because believe me, the only thing that is crap and a waste of time is listening to boring, cretinous little trolls.

[–] ExcellentBulletproofVest 11 years ago

Er...bit late to stop watching it if it's only the final episode one dislikes.

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I'd rather you all hate me for everything I am, than love me for something I'm not

[–] eyebrowmorroco 11 years ago

If they’re in limbo, why are they still solving cases? Are the others also in this state? Why do they care if they live or die? How did the original team all of a sudden forget that they had died?

It just seems like such a bandaid job. The original ending was a brilliant piece of nihilism. This is exactly why writers shouldn’t milk too much of a good thing. They squandered an indelible ending. They should have retained its identity by keeping its extension, Ashes to Ashes, a separate entity.

Personally, Life on Mars relied too heavily on the mystery elements. By the final few episodes, I just wanted to know how it was going to end. Ashes to Ashes is consistently a better show as far as intrigue in plot and character development is concerned. Therefore, the ending is even more so bitterly disappointing.

Alex could have quite easily been so consumed with the story of Sam Tyler that she too had a similar experience upon finding herself in a life and death situation. The mystery did not have to be bled dry. We didn’t need to see the bare bones of it all. We didn’t need to see Gene Hunt exposed.

[–] 8 years ago

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