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Shocking German Prisoner Quote about Waterbury, CT

posted 16 years ago by sanfran419
19 replies | jump to latest

I need a little help with the details/names of a certain quote from the series. It's been a while since I've watched The War, but I remember a story at the very beginning of one of the middle episodes (possibly third or fourth) from one of the veterans from Waterbury, CT. He said he was guarding a group of German POWs and that he began talking with one of the prisoners that spoke English surprisingly well. Eventually the German asked what part of America the guard was from and he replied Waterbury. The German explained he knew it well and began listing minor geographic details that not many people in Connecticut even knew about. When the American asked how he knew these things, the German replied he'd been trained to know the area because it would be part of the territory he governed when it was conquered by the Reich.

I found this on a PBS message board in response to a criticism of the scene:

Co-Producer Lynn Novick Responds:

"You raise a concern about a story told by Ray Leopold in our 6th episode about meeting a German POW who said he was in training for 'the administration of the territories,' ie the United States. In this scene, Ray Leopold recalls an event that happened to him. We do not say that the German soldier was telling the truth -- what we present is Ray Leopold's account of the encounter. There is no way of knowing whether the German was being truthful about training he had received (perhaps years earlier) or whether he was simply trying to frighten his captors about what would happen to them once Hitler won the war. We explain this point in greater detail in our companion book (see page 311)."

Does anyone know where I can find a video clip of this online or a transcript of this quote? For that matter, does anyone even remember this short little story? Ever since I first saw it, this has bugged me and stood out in my mind, but I can't find any reference to it on the internet. Any help would be great.

[–] Reality-Bites 16 years ago

I don't have further information on it right now, although I do vividly remember that part in the documentary, and it didn't really surprise me, what the German soldier was saying. Nor do I doubt very much that he was essentially telling the truth. It was not unusual for German military planners to make long-range plans up to and including overrunning an enemy country, and having plans in place for administering that country after it had fallen. They were expert in knowing the ins-and-outs of other countries "operating system" as it were. Compare this with the extent to which the Soviets studied the USA intently during the Cold War. Long before the end of the Cold War, there were many Russians who, through specialized KGB training, were more knowledgable about America, and could even speak better English, than many Americans.

[–] sanfran419 16 years ago

Yeah, it was just shocking because I'd never heard of any specific reference to post-invasion plans for the U.S. I know the Germans were big on the study of Geopolitics and the way they manipulated that into the "science of conquest". I also seen things about the development of the "America Bomber" the Nazis were developing at the end of the war to drop an atomic bomb on Manhattan, but that was the extent of my knowledge of German plans for the U.S. I don't know whether the German was honestly just trying to make conversation or attempting to intimidate the American, but if an enemy prisoner had told me about already developed plans to run my hometown after it was conquered it definitely would have taken me aback. If there is something to this incident, then it just shows the extreme extent to which the Germans were thinking of conquest on a truly global scale.

[–] teaandoranges 15 years ago

Isn't it true that German subs were patrolling off the east coast during WW2 and many merchant marine ships leaving our shores were attacked by the Germans. So this story makes sense if all that is true.

[–] stryker492 15 years ago

I think it's on the fourth episode. I don't have any problem believing that story to be true, given what the Germans had done, and what they intended to do.

And yes, the German navy was active on the east coast of the US and Canada, using subs in attacks on convoys; they even landed a weather station for reconaissance in Labrador. The Nazis certainly had designs on ruling North and South America as well as Europe.

Faith can move mountains, but dynamite works better.

[–] Reality-Bites 15 years ago

There's a really good book on this subject called "Operation Drumbeat," written by historian Michael Gannon - with the help of a German U-Boat skipper who participated in this Atlantic and Gulf Coast submarine warfare and survived the war to tell about it. One of the best war books I've ever read.

http://www.amazon.com/Operation-Drumbeat-Dramatic-Germanys-American/dp /1591143020/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226190871&sr =8-1

also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Drumbeat

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] sludgehound 9 years ago

Yes in 1942-43 the wolfpack U-boats owned the Atlantic Coast and the Gulf of Mexico. The US population wasn't looking for a war which made for easy pickings.
One German commander U-566 had 6 subs in his career. Still alive today last look. There are also reports of sighting subs at time in the D.C. Potomac River.
These guys would have taken the US had they taken UK with ease. But got worn down after trying UK & Russia. Madness has no limit. Perhaps if Japan had messed up China & Russia enough that would have caused the US to lean more that way giving up on Europe for a while. Of course Hitler could have avoided overload up by not taking on Russia but he wanted that Balkan oil system way too much so seems he figured why not make sure Russia didn't control area.
Only good thing about WWII is that it burned out the world even more than WWI did. No appetite can be better than a real hunger for war.
Then again FDR putting entire fleet in one spot begs the issue.....
Hans Hornkohl 12 patrols Kpth (Lieutenant Commander)
www.wolftree.freeserve.co.uk/Naval/Naval_Actions_WW243Res.html

[–] !!!deleted!!! (4184863) 9 years ago

Germans never had plans for the A bomb.

Man this party is like an orgy at a campsite......its ***king in tents.

[–] Infamous-Sulla 15 years ago

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Germans planned to invade and conquer the U.S. other than in someone's long term fantasies. Hitler's plans were primarily for the conquest of Europe and western Asia. The Amerika bomber project was simply to retaliate against the U.S. and force them to allocate more resources for home defense, thus reducing aid to the defense of Britain. German U-boat activity in U.S. waters was for the sole purpose of interdiction of aid to the war in Europe. There was a map of German plans to divide South America, but it was later shown to be a forgery in order to encourage the U.S. to get involved in the war. If there were any specific plans for U.S. invasion and occupation, Allied intelligence services would have discovered them after the war when almost every scrap of captured documents was examined in detail. Nothing was found.

One has to wonder what the chances are that a P.O.W. guard would just happen to be talking to the man who was going to be the governor of his hometown of Waterbury. The prisoner's knowledge of the area could be due to his visiting Waterbury before the war or possibly German studies of important industrial areas within range of potential future long range bombing missions. It's more likely that the prisoner was just trying to scare the guard.

"Invisible! I've never been invisible before!"

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] NoahBody 15 years ago

Infamous-Sulla

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Germans planned to invade and conquer the U.S. other than in someone's long term fantasies.

So other than his long term plans, there were no plans. Nice contradiction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9x3B3l1HAY

BobOgden

That scene struck me as fictional.

Bob, you and Infamous-Sulla are pretty ignorant of history. I must assume you are both products of public schooling.

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/5-8-2002-18044.asp
German archive reveals kaiser's plan to invade America
It was planned down to the last detail. Sixty German ships laden with tens of thousands of troops were to arrive at various points on the US Atlantic seaboard. Several thousand soldiers would land at Cape Cod and march into Boston, while heavy cruisers entered New York's Lower Bay to bombard Manhattan.

In Washington, President Theodore Roosevelt would be forced to negotiate.

Papers found in the German military archive in Freiburg and published yesterday in Die Zeit show this was one of attack plans ordered by Kaiser Wilhelm II at the end of the 19th century "to put America in its place".

“[A] solid analysis of Hitler's wartime plans to invade the United States.”–www.historynet.com

{Speaking about the book "TARGET: AMERICA: Hitler's Plan to Attack the United States"}

Folks, if you're embarrassed by the stupidity demonstrated by Infamous-Sulla and BobOgden above thank a public school teacher.

[–] Infamous-Sulla 15 years ago

So other than his long term plans, there were no plans. Nice contradiction.

No contradiction at all. You've misquoted me in order to build a strawman. I said "long term fantasies". Fantasies are not specific plans. By "plans", I mean something more than crude ideas and general wishes. Of course they might have considered it in the far future, but there were no immediate plans for invasion. I believe "immediate" was also the specific word BobOgden used.

TARGET AMERICA: Hitler's Plan to Attack the United States By James P. Duffy

I've never read that book which (I believe) was published in 2004 using newly discovered info from 2002. But I read most of it on Google books.

Duffy's book is much like a History Channel show. He mostly discusses German plans to attack (not invade) the U.S. with submarines, bombers, missiles and wonder-weapons. Obviously, I already stipulated to that with my earlier reference to the 'Amerika' bomber.

The only chapter which refers to a potential WWII invasion is sensationally titled "Invasion From The South". It plays up rumors and fears of the Germans swiftly transporting troops to Brazil, seizing control and eventually driving north along third-rate roads through the jungles and around the mountains of Venezuela and Colombia, through the narrow isthmus of Panama, through more jungles and mountains in Central America, through the deserts of Mexico and finally invading the U.S. somewhere along its 2,000 mile border there. All this while keeping a modern army supplied with fuel, ammunition, spare parts and replacements using supply lines which were thousands of miles long. He cites William L. Shirer in Dec. 1940 as stating there was much "talk" about it.

Duffy says nothing about making actual plans as the Kaiser had done forty years earlier. Additionally, no realistic planner could seriously consider a large scale cross-Atlantic invasion of Brazil from Dakar, West Africa after losing the Battle of Britain a few months earlier and without invading Spain to get at Gibraltar. The idea was just, as I've already characterized it, someone's fantasy. The historynet.com reviewer who calls it a "solid analysis of Hitler's wartime plans to invade the United States.” is not referring to literal plans, but rather Hitler's wartime dreams to invade. Dreams which were abandoned early in the war when Germany's military situation made them impractical.

Also the book makes no mention of any German postwar U.S. occupation plans which one would hope to find in order to verify the German prisoner's claim to Ray Leopold. If any actual occupation plans existed, they're lost or haven't yet been discovered. I read one opinion where someone said Duffy wrote that book as a response to people who claim Germany was not a threat to the U.S. I disagree with those people. I believe there was a threat, but not one of imminent invasion.

I attended both public and private schools in the 1960s. I don't know what public schools have to do with it since these kinds of in-depth subjects are usually covered at university level or above. One thing I did learn as early as grade school was how to disagree with someone without being a jackass. Looks like your school failed to teach that lesson.

The ram has touched the wall.

[–] jwiles1 15 years ago

Hitler during one of his manic episodes might have mentioned planning a US invasion, but I agree with the others here. There were never really any significant plans for the Germans to invade the US.

[–] yoo 14 years ago

You lied to make your point.

[–] razorwyre1 13 years ago

those that are doubting the reality of the german prisoner's statement are forgetting 2 important things:

first off, if we take the u.s. soldier's memory and account to be fairly accurate, then that prisoner knew intimate details about the towns geography. if he wasnt being trained to govern the area (or wasnt the most incredible amateur expert in the geography of the new england area), how would he have known those details?

also supporting the statement is the way things were run in the third reich. sure, hitler or some other top ranking nazi may have just spun a fantasy about invading america in an offhand remark, but that became a cue for their underlings to run off and take actions to try to bring those fantasies about, either to please their masters, or to fulfill their own personal agendas.

certainly, it could have all been a fiction, or a something mis-remembered after 50+ years, but these things, particularly the first, lends it credibility to me.

[–] willb-8 13 years ago

Its the opening interview for episode 6. Just watching this on netflix now.

[–] layton59 12 years ago

The Germans were very methodical in their planning.

I have no trouble believing that there was training being given to select German soldiers who spoke English, on how to govern the USA.

I imagine French training, Polish training and so on was done well in advance of those invasions as well.

Hitler's ultimate goal was to control all of the world.

***********************************************

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[–] RoyWilliamsbeatsCoachK 10 years ago

There was no concrete plan to invade America. Maybe down the line. Hitler was not even motivated to conquer Britain as he had hoped they would be an ally.

Highly unlikely that soldier was promised to be a governor in America. Even if Hitler had wanted to conquer America, it would have been several years away, and that is if the Soviet Union and Britain both fell.

[–] angelofvic 8 years ago

.
It is possible, if the German had truly accentless English like Leopold said, that the German had spent time in or had even been educated in the U.S., and simply left out that info. In any case, a German who managed perfectly accentless English (extremely rare as we all know) would have a near-obsession with the U.S., and if Hitler had plans for occupying the U.S. that's the kind of person he would have employed in that department.
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