Ok, I enjoyed the movie and have bought it On Demand three times, but I am still unclear about Elizabeth's beef with Henri. Are we to believe that she is just being dramatic as the "author of her own tragedy," or is she just jealous of Henri, or was there some truth to the incestuous relationship speculation (this I doubt)??? You don't have to understand this to enjoy the film, but like any thinking human being, I am curious.
Your thoughts?
I have only seen it one time and I'm baffled. Is it unconscious resentment that Henri couldn't save her beloved older brother (though she denies that she still grieves Joseph)? This was one thought I had but it seems like a stretch to me, especially since her husband hates Henri at least as much as she does. And the letter that Henri gave to Elizabeth as a Christmas present - was that the letter he sent just the week before or a new letter, or the mysterious letter that supposedly created the original rift? And why would Henri have a letter that was addressed to Elizabeth, unless it was a new letter, in which case, why do we never get a clue what it says? And why did he give almost everybody else money? I thought he was a screw-up who would be unlikely to have any cash to spare. Sorry - none of this answers your question but I found it frustrating that so much was unexplained.
shareAll great questions.
My bet is they didn't have time for the crucial scene that would explain this and answer all those Q's because they needed to keep the discoteque scene where the guy did all the wop-wop album spinning!
Very funny!!! (That disco scene definitely felt it came out of left field with no connection to the main story at all!).
I just saw the movie and I know the rift is never explained as I was intently waiting for a shocking revelation that never came! The letter however was returned by Elizabeth to Henri, the recent one, presumably unopened, possibly as an insult. (My guess here).
The letter however was returned by Elizabeth to Henri, the recent one, presumably unopened, possibly as an insult.The letter was opened by Elizabeth -- we watch her start to read it and then Amalric narrates it to the audience in a straight-to-camera shot. We know Elizabeth is "hearing it" while we are.
Ambiguous is right! I just replayed some scenes and was astonished to see Elizabeth tending Henri's wounds after her husband punched him!! She WANTS to hate him for not saving Joseph and because he's such a screwup, but deep down she loves him because he's her brother. As Henri says, "a game that backfired," or something like that. He knows it's too late to fix things, as he states in his letter to her.
I'm starting to think that the whole mess starts with Junon, who probably encouraged Elizabeth (subconsciously or no) to blame Henri for everything that went wrong, including Joseph's death. Henri was too young to know better, so fell into the role both women pushed on him. Now that he sees how insane it is, he's had enough. Junon may come around, but she admitted she remembered nothing of Henri when he was young. That was so telling. Henri identified his enemies correctly: Junon and Elizabeth. Abel was too weak to fight them both or he believed things would sort themselves out.
i don't know why she was so upset with henri, either, but face it, henri was a boor and a screw-up. i imagine she was so orderly in her life that she could not face the chaos in his and was literally afraid it would infect and effect her family.
incidentally, irongirl has it wrong about the letter. elizabeth gave (or returned) the letter to henri via her son. i presume this was the same one he had written her before the family reunion. what i found curious was his reaction to the letter. it seemed to devastate him (and led to his obscene toast over dinner?) so maybe it was the long-ago letter that ivan hinted at.
I partly agree about Elizabeth's resentment of Henri because of the fact that she couldn't tolerate all the chaos he inflicted on her. She seemed very fragile and delicate.
Perhaps the fact that he showed up and she didn't leave was just a complete failure for her. I mean, she did not want to see him ever again and she did not want to speak with him again. And she did not manage to keep him to his promise. Perhaps she just felt like she had let down herself by not being able to keep him out of her own life.
I felt that one of the big issues between Henri and her was that of whether Henri or Elizabeth drove her son to madness. Her sense of order and his sense of taboo-breaking chaos.
I'll definitely have to see this film again when I can purchase it or receive it as the ultimate christmas present. Hehe
He was devasted because it was the same letter returned sealed and supposedly unread. She said it was from their Mother. He imagined that it would lead to a reconciliation but she didn't want anything to do with him. Though I thought I remembered a scene showing her reading the letter in her old room so making him believe that she hadn't read it was diabolical.
share"My bet is they didn't have time for the crucial scene that would explain this and answer all those Q's because they needed to keep the discoteque scene where the guy did all the wop-wop album spinning!"
Okay, this cracked me up. Film was definitely too long -- and yet the intertwining plots, the over-the-topness almost added to its charm.
Me too. LMAO.
shareI just watched that scene again and Henri's face was not shown. In fact, they showed everyone's face but his. I believe it was the letter Henri had sent just before the reunion. He told Ivan there was no letter before. I'm wondering if Elizabeth told Junon about a letter years ago to put her off the track. How could she admit to her mother she banished her brother because he was "predictable"? The fact that Junon did NOTHING to intervene says volumes.
shareSaw the movie last night. Assumed that the play within a play (ala Shakespeare) had a revelation, and the prince was banned for a sexual offense. We were also told that Elizabeth's husband was not Paul's father plus Paul and Henri being the only suitable donors makes me think the transgression was indeed incest.
shareI thought there was something weird about how she was reacting with her son and blaming Henri for his genes and lunacy. Fair guess. Although, I would have thought they would have made it clearer if that were the case. I don't think Henri would have seemed so genuinely confused about the reason if they had slept together and especially if he was possibly Paul's father. Unless he got really drunk and didn't remember.
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You did just fine, Clarence. Now go git yo'self some hot cornbread!
Having watched this through once, with frequent rewinds (I DVR'd it); and then speeding through it again to watch crucial scenes, I don't remember hearing that Claude was not the father, although the suggestion that there was incest b/t Henri and Elizabeth or something was pretty strong. Still, when Sylvie brings this possibility up to Ivan, he says that's impossible.
I do think the children's play is key. Not only punishment for some offense (I don't recall the sexual nature of it; but I'll go back and check); but also that the 'punishment' is that the prince has his arm cut off and then is 'tres gentil.' This parallels Henri giving his marrow to Junon, suggesting all will be well.
It was all about Joseph.
Start there, it all comes full circle in the end.
I couldn't figure her hatred for Henri either, but the whole time I was just telling myself that she just did not want Henri around her life while she was raising Paul. IIRC, didn't she mention that to him at some point in the movie? That she didn't want Henri to ruin Paul's life or something? Hmm, I swear I remember that... Well anyway, that's what I was thinking the whole time. But then I got tripped up in the final thing where she said that she herself became victim to Paul's disease. And that totally threw me off..
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i just watched this film. Ok! that fued between henri and elizabeth? WFT? I mean herni was a fool, but honestly, She was a #$^% bitch. I hated her and had no symaphy at all for her. And her poor son, no wonder he went off the deep end. in that scene where they actually confront eachother Henri lays it on the line, that she is making her son ill, and that she has a husband that is constantly away from her..........i mean come on, that woman was depressed and had mental issues....it doen't take a dr. to figure it out!.
the relationship with Henri and his mom was curious as well...........at first I thought they where joking about not liking eachother, but i guess it was true. even the jewish girlfriend was a freak! the whole lets not talk? thetwo boys where the only normal ones and well the dad too, but he was spinless!.
interesting people! kinda like sienfeld, i didn't care about a single carachter
I think it all goes back to the brother who died of the congenital illness that plagued their family. The very reason for Henri's existence was to save his brother by being a donor, but he was tragically incompatible. From the moment of birth, therefore, he had failed his sole purpose in life - not an auspicious beginning. The event had a profound impact on the unconscious psychodynamics of the whole family. Both his mother and sister forever resented him - he became "incompatible" to them as well - while he understandably was filled with rage and destructiveness over these circumstances. No one really understood the reasons for their mutual animosity because they were so irrational as to be incomprehensible from a conscious perspective. I think the movie is about how immensely powerful such forces can be, like a deadly riptide invisible beneath a deceptively calm surface. But it also shows that they can be overcome, as with the youngest brother (through the power of love), and even Henri himself in the end.
shareI DVRd the movie and just finished watching it. I'm grinning like a Cheshire cat; yeah, it was really weird and really long and there are a LOT of unanswered questions, but I could not stop watching! I loved it! (I cannot say the same for "Lady Chatterley" or "Une veille maîtresse;" I fast-forwarded through much of both of them.) One thing that caught my attention at the end was when Elizabeth quoted from Puck's speech at the end of "Midsummer's Night Dream," how if anything you've just seen has annoyed you, just think that you were asleep and it was a dream and everything will sort itself out. I can't explain it, but it made sense. I loved watching the characters' interactions with one another. This was splendidly done. 9/10
shareit seems most all of us agree that the rift confused us. As to the letter, what i saw (last night) was that on Xmas Day, when they are exchanging gifts, the young boy gives Henri an envelope from his mother, Elizabeth. Henri looks surprised and hopeful about it but when he opens it, he only sees the envelope within, addressed to her from him, and this upsets him. On the swing in the back yard, he mumbles something like "i did not write this"..... So I thought the letter was the one constantly referred to - that Henri supposedly wrote to her years ago, which caused her to banish him, but which he claimed to never have written. So I thought this letter was the original letter, given back to him by elizabeth in proof that he DID write her such a letter years ago.
A previous poster claims that this returned letter was the one henri sent to elizabeth just before xmas, but I don't know how ANYONE could know when the envelope was dated. Maybe they saw it on a big screen?
And how does one know that henri had been born to save the life of the older sick brother? did i miss that in the film's first few minutes? i did not hear that fact mentioned when deneuve mentioned to the girlfriend that she never liked henri.
Ad hoc, Ad loc, Quid pro queeee,
So little time and so much to see
Yes, Henry WAS born in order to save his brother, it is stated in the narrator's story at the beginning. So it makes sense what was said before, that he was a loser from the start - and maybe this is the reason behind the resentment of his sister - she is a winner, and they are incompatible (I must say that the loser character is once again the really interesting and lovable one, because of his freedom and genuinness). She feels she is mourning somebody, but doesn't know who. It might be her brother, but not Joseph, of whom she hardly can have any recollection, but Henri, which she herself banned from her life, to keep it orderly and tidy and uptight.
Anyway, what about the speech from Abel, in the very first minutes of the film? It is a funeral speech, but he says he is interring his son Joseph... and he is happy that Joseph gave life to him making him in turn, his son... Huh?
I watched and re-watched on DVR also. I'm 99.9% sure that the letter given to Henri was the one he wrote before Xmas to Elizabeth. It WAS opened and read by her (contrary to some posts here) and given back to Henri. I don't recall the line about 'I didn't write this' either in the French or in the subtitles. I'll try and go back and see.
Yes, go back and re-watch the beginning. There's a 'puppet show' like prologue that explains the back story.
Watched it again. Henri says, "You don't know me, I'm not like that." Nothing about not writing the letter.
I don't think the point is that we can see a post mark or a date; but that we saw Elizabeth take the letter out of her post office box; and the envelope was identical to the envelope inside the envelope she uses to return the letter to Henri. We see both closely.
There's still an outside possibility that Henri did write her an earlier letter (he claims not to remember doing so) and that that's the letter returned to him; but it doesn't seem likely in the context of the whole film.
Elizabeth hates him for being who he is. Nothing specific is mentioned because there is nothing specific. It's the totality of his being that she despises. She hates him for everything.
Henri says it's all her fault. She drove him away from the family for no real reason and everyone just went along with it. Both those perspectives are all you need. She hated him as a person.
The reason is a MacGuffin, much like the contents of the briefcase in Pulp Fiction.
I thought that what finally made Elizabeth banish Henri from her life was when she took care of his theatre debts. Even though he still owed the original owners money, Henri was still planning to sell the theatre and make a profit. He was even going to allow his father to pay off his debt; Henri was okay with Abel selling his own home to prevent Henri from going to jail.
Elizabeth 'saved' Henri from going to jail, but the consequence was that she didn't want him in her life anymore. She thought he was irresponsible and greedy and really didn't like his arrogant behaviour.
I couldn't understand why Abel or Henri seemed to have forgotten this event; they just took it for granted that Elizabeth paid Henri's debt. Abel was weak in this regard as he didn't really fault Henri for his irresponsibility.
I felt sorry for Elizabeth as she seems to have suffered more than the other siblings. She is suffering with depression as witnessed with the scene at the psychiatrist's. This depression seems to have been triggered by her severing ties with Henri, but it could have started earlier. She says she's in 'mourning' but it's ambivalent.
This film was an excellent portrayal of a dysfunctional family, under the ironically simple title of A Christmas Story. Although I loved the interweaving storylines, I felt they could have been better tied together. We needed more background on the siblings' childhood together.
One thing for sure, mental illness ran quite deeply through this family.
"Fasten your seat belts. It's going to be a bumpy night."
Didn't you find her at all comical? Her drama and neurosis make her a caricature.
shareElizabeth was an unhappy person who thrived on hatred. How you can possible feel sorry for her is beyond me. Her problems didn't start with the paying of the debt. It is clearly said she was happy only as a child.
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Entire film is an allegory of Jesus, complete with ambiguities and gaps that one also finds in the New TestamentHenri = JesusJunon = the disbelieving Jewry (remember she wore a Star of David at the museum yet she celebrated Christmas and attended Midnight Mass) and who demanded the blood/marrow/crucifixion of her son Henri/Jesus yet who would, after demanding marrow/crucifixion, shift to fully believing in Henri/Jesus as a saviour; also Mary Magdalenish because she began Jewish then lost faith (speculation: losing son = losing faith, losing faith = metaphor for prostitution) then migrated to Christianity (Magdalene saved by Jesus then followed Jesus and anointed his feet and treated him as a Saviour, making her Christian)Abel = Old Testament Father left in the dark by the failure of Henri/Jesus to save brother/mankind and the disbelief of Junon/Jewry, Old Testament Father of sacrificial meat killed by the Fruits (fruit = knowledge = Nietzsche, the book he reads from; the knowledge that G_d is dead), killed by the Fruits of Cain, Father who becomes "enlightened" by "G_d is Dead" Nietzsche, Old Testament Judaism replaced not by Christianity but by a post-modern Secularism+Agnosticism: a new Christmas Tale for modern times.......Elizabeth = Mary-Mother-of-Jesus, she's angry that Henri/Jesus always brought her family down (Jesus bringing misfortune down on his mother) and extremely jealous/irritated/angered that Henri is anointed to save Junon/Jewry (read: saving his family/saving mankind), extremely jealous that Henri was created to save her brother (Jesus created to save mankind) and extremely angry that Henri failed to do so (paralleling people who are extremely angry because they feel Jesus did not save mankind or angered that G_d fails them in one way or another, they feel Jesus/G_d failed, etc); she's also Judas because she's always antagonistic towards Henri and always betraying Henri just as Judas was antagonistic towards Jesus and betrayed JesusElizabeth's suicidal son Paul = Saul-turned-Paul, first he did not believe in Life (Saul not believing in Jesus as Messiah) and wanted to kill himself, then is saved by Henri/Jesus, which parallels Saul struck by lightning and saved, transforming Saul into PaulIvan's wife Sylvia = Mary Magdalenish, "stoned" by the two brothers and their cousin but then saved by Henri when Henri challenges Simon to let gentle Ivan have herIvan = Disciple John because Ivan means John and because John was supposed to be calm/gentle (just like Ivan) and because at the end, Ivan, like John, ended up exiled in the sense that he ended up exiled from his wife, regardless of whether or not they remained married; from the very beginning he sensed his wife never loved him, he was already exiled from her in that sense, and by the end of the film he as a revelation that the exile is finally tangible/concrete, and he's right because Sylvia finally consummated her love for SimonSimon the cousin = Disciple, Simon Peter, Peter the rock, the rock who gave up the woman he loved and kept his misery to himself for well over a decadeFauna = Judas = devoutly Jewish and abandons/sells Henri to his sister and mother (Romans, Pharisees), both of whom crucifify Henri/Jesus from the moment of his birth straight through the moment they both realize they need him to save their lives (Henri saving sister's son saves her life, and Henri saving mother's life) and continue crucifying him after he's saved their lives (well we don't know what happens with Junon but we do know Junon continues to ridicule him after Henri's marrow is delivered to her room and she's being prepared for the transplant)Elizabeth and Junon are a mixture of the stoical militant Roman soldier and the Pharisical "my way or prepare to be crucified" Jewry who perverted/exploited the Jewish theology; Elizabeth exhuding atheism because she dwells on meaningless of life, Junon the "paganistic" Roman because she lacks belief in G_d and her general faith has dwindled (including faith in Science) and she shifts from Judaism to Christianity to Humanism (escape to museum) in an effort to find some meaning, some clue, to her fateChristmas dinner = Last SupperHenri's bone marrow extraction = the arms up and partially extended resembling crucifixion, drill in the spine resemblimg the hammering of nails, and Henri survives the procedure (Jesus Resurrection), something that at first we're led to believe he might not survive due to his poor health
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