Hayek


My impression after watching this is that whoever made it read very little of Hayek's works, and didn't know what they were talking about. Attempts to tie him to RAND and the Cold War are very unconvincing since Hayek was against rationalist politics and militarism (such as compulsory military service), respectively.

Firstly, Hayek did not point to the Soviet Union primarily as a warning, he pointed to Nazi Germany (when Hayek was writing The Road to Serfdom Russia was still an ally). Secondly, he did not believe "the West" was inevitably leading to totalitarianism, he wouldn't have wrote his warning otherwise. Thirdly, Hayek did not advocate going back to a "golden age", nowhere in his writings does he talk about going backwards to some mythical utopia, for Hayek it was about future intellectual trends.

On altruism, they curiously edited out the rest of Hayek's interview. The point Hayek makes (and Bernard Mandeville, Adam Ferguson, Adam Smith and Edmund Burke all made before him in very similar words) is that by pursuing their (by which it is meant not just the self but family and friends as well) own interests people promote the interests of everyone. This was was left out of the programme, which just stated that people are self-interested and civil servants' power needed to be curtailed, in a rather bleak way. It did not mention at all the reason why those like Hayek recognised the benefits of self interest within a free society.

I know far more about Hayek than any of the other thinkers mentioned in this documentary so it's easy to point out the glaring inaccuracies, it just makes me wonder how inaccurate their portrayal is of Laing, Rosenhan, Buchanan, etc.

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Re-watch it.

Curtis doesn't tie Hayek's work to the RAND corporation. It just skates over his ideas for a Capitalist model based on self interest. All that was stated was that his ideas when juxtaposed with the simplistic model of a human being, provided by game theory, appear to give a model of a stable free market. Game theory assumes self interest, it makes the model work.

After all Hayek was an aristocrat working in his own self interest (as he suggests everyone should). He's from money and understands that free markets help the rich become richer. I quote your post "that by pursuing their (by which it is meant not just the self but family and friends as well) own interests people promote the interests of everyone". Yes, family and friends as well, wealthy, powerful friends. I think you are splitting hairs here.

Also, Hayek seeing Nazi Germany as a "threat" is a given because they where committed to monetary reform and where against the Central Banking system. They blamed financial institutions for their defeat in WWI, something that Hitler seethed about. This led in part to the "final solution". Hitler saw the banks as part of the "International Jewish Conspiracy" and, yes he was certainly dangerous to the wealthy people of the world.

As far as the Soviet Union being a threat to Free Markets, that is a 100% certainty. Communists are at the extreme end of the political spectrum from Capitalist. How could a Capitalist NOT point to the Communists as a threat? The Communist will seize the means of production and give it to the workers.

You may know a lot about Hayek, but you don't appear to know much about Political movements such as Marxism or National Socialism.

"Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day"

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Hayek seeing Nazi Germany as a "threat" is a given because they where committed to monetary reform and where against the Central Banking system.

They were not the reasons Hayek gave for disliking National-Socialism, and I'm not sure who you are meant to be quoting. Perhaps it is you who has the poor grasp of knowledge.

As far as the Soviet Union being a threat to Free Markets, that is a 100% certainty. Communists are at the extreme end of the political spectrum from Capitalist. How could a Capitalist NOT point to the Communists as a threat?

I did not claim he didn't degenerate the Soviet Union, which you seemingly believe I claimed. I said Hayek did not point primarily to the Soviet Union but rather to Nazi Germany as the possible outcome of various intellectual trends in England during the time he was writing his book. That is fact.

don't appear to know much about Political movements such as Marxism or National Socialism.

Perhaps I should of displayed my impeccable knowledge of these ideologies by claiming like you that the Communists would give the workers control over the means of production. I'm sure Comrade Stalin and his crew were workers...

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I don't need to quote anything to state the obvious about both the Nazis and the Soviets as threats to Free Markets and the status quo of Elites dominating "Western" society.

Your original statements and subsequent responses hold no water. You are splitting hairs, finding one point that is purely down to the way you see it, and expanding on it to question the integrity of the whole piece.

Btw..

Do not mistake Communism under Stalin to Marxism. The original ideoly of the Russian Revolution (and all revolutions since) was Marxism but it wasn't achieved. Stalinism is about as far from actual Marxism as is possible, it was expoited and became cronyism. Using this to make a point in your little footnote makes you come across as a little ignorant.

"Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day"

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I don't need to quote anything...

Hmm yeah well you did, despite me not saying "threat".

Using this to make a point in your little footnote makes you come across as a little ignorant.

Says the person who claims Communists will give the workers control over the means of production, when experience everywhere when Communists have got into power proves otherwise. If someone hasn't seen this by now no matter how many times it is tried, it is not me who is ignorant.

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Your ignorance coupled with your arrogance knows no bounds.

You need to know more about political ideology to even come close to making a valid objection.

Why did you waste your time even making the original post?

You claim to know something about Hayek, but you do not understand the subject. Not understanding is not a shield to hide behind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism

You are a troll, sir. Nothing more.

Next week, learn something new and pretend to be an expert on that too.

"Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day"

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This from someone who gets their information from Wikipedia. It takes more than pop-encyclopaedias to know what you're talking about. Try reading a book. Perhaps you should stop hurling personal insults and labelling people trolls in order to cover your inability to come up with a decent argument, which is evidently how you duck out of debate. Pathetic.

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A decent arguement?

Welcome to my ignore list.

I obviously posted a Wikipedia thread for you to have a look at. It was glaringly obvious that you would come back with a "read a book" response.

You sir are a retard.

Trolls? Debate? Again, what was your original post?

You cast aspersions on a whole documentary series based on what YOU call a mis-quote. If you understood anything about politics, there was no mis-quote or misrepresentation of the facts.

Again, how can you be so well read on philosophers like Hayek without knowing anything about the likes of Marx?

You are a liar and a complete time waster.

James1986? That's likely the year that you where born.

Kids!

"Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day"

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After all Hayek was an aristocrat working in his own self interest (as he suggests everyone should). He's from money and understands that free markets help the rich become richer. I quote your post "that by pursuing their (by which it is meant not just the self but family and friends as well) own interests people promote the interests of everyone". Yes, family and friends as well, wealthy, powerful friends. I think you are splitting hairs here.


You've missed the point. Let's say that I, as a rational, self interested man, seek to make a profit. In a free market I can only do this through free and voluntary exchange. I notice that a lot of people are demanding Widgets, therefore, I decide to produce widgets, not because I want to help these people out, but because I'm a greedy, selfish capitalist.

When I've produced all of my Widgets I value them at no less than £5 (for simplicity's sake let's assume that this is also the price I set), and as such I'm not willing to sell them for any less than that. Soon my first customer comes along and he is in dire need of a Widget, he is prepared to pay £10 in order to gain a Widget (or rather, he is prepared to forego anything else he could buy for £10 for the sake of the Widget). Because the price of £5 is acceptable to both of us the transaction takes place, not because the consumer wants to help me realise my goal of becoming filthy rich, but because he is greedy and selfish, and wants to increase his well being as much as possible, for as low a price as possible.

As with all voluntary exchanges, there is a mutual benefit here: I subjectively value the £5 more than the Widget, and the consumer subjectively values the Widget at more than £5. If he only offered me £4 for the Widget, I would refuse to sell it to him, similarly if I had priced the Widget at £11, then he would have refused to buy it. When exchange is voluntary, all trade is mutually beneficial.

Also, Hayek seeing Nazi Germany as a "threat" is a given because they where committed to monetary reform and where against the Central Banking system.


Hayek was a prominent member of the Austrian school of economics. A school of thought which holds that central banking is the primary cause of business cycles, and should be abolished. The Nazis were actually quite enthusiastic about government control over the economy.

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I'm glad to see there are some intelligent comments here about Hayek. I was also blown away at this propaganda films lack of knowledge about the subject. I kept watching thinking, "What books has this idiot been reading (or not reading)?" He way overestimates and oversimplifies the influence of things like game theory genetics, and psychiatry on society and politics.

Oh and this CoolClones guy sure has revealed his ignorance based on his unintelligent and unsubstantiated posts. Although I'm not surprised he got so angry in the face of such well articulated thoughts. Stupid people are often proud (knowing nothing but their own beliefs). And proud people are always angered when faced with facts the go against their myopic view of life.

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I'd just like to back up the other intelligent posters in their appraisal of Hayek.

Hayek, throughout his life supported peace, freedom and non-violence. His insights into economics were largely unmatched (Ludwig von Mises stands out as the only main counter-example). His critiques of the curtailment of economic freedom largely ring true in today's world. If we only followed a Hayekian political program, we might stem the implosion of civilization, and put an end to the crippling poverty socialisation of resources has created.

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I think this is unfair to the movie in a few ways. First, I don't think the film ties Hayek to people at RAND and their game-theoretic Cold War strategizing. It claims no direct connection between Hayek and the thinking coming out of RAND. It doesn't claim that his thinking influenced the work going on at RAND, or vice versa. Rather, Curtis claims that someone might think the theorizing coming out of RAND supported Hayek's views about spontaneous order arising form the self-interested actions of individuals. Importantly, though, the film does not claim that Hayek himself thought this was the case; indeed, the film says nothing about what, if anything, he thought about the work coming out of RAND at that time.

Second, Curtis does seem to claim that Hayek thought the West was inevitably heading towards totalitarianism. But, in context, it seems clear he's claiming that Hayek thought this would happen IF Western countries continued to rely on governmental control of their economies. I mean, right after Curtis claims Hayek thought this was inevitable, he turns around and says that there's a way out if we give up on central planning of our economies and let individuals freely pursue their own self-interested ends. So the way Curtis phrases these points could've been clearer, but I don't think he's attributing to Hayek the view that Western nations were bound to become totalitarian.

Third, the film does acknowledge that Hayek thought all would be better off if each individual were allowed to pursue his or her own self-interest. About six minutes in, there's a short video clip of Hayek from an interview, and his very first sentence is "We will benefit our fellow men most if we are guided solely by the striving for gain." You might think this point should've received more emphasis, and you may well be right. But it's in there.

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