MovieChat Forums > Sucker Punch (2011) Discussion > Is Sucker Punch sexist?

Is Sucker Punch sexist?


I remember seeing the film and being entertained by it, but not at one point did I say, "this is offensive towards women.". Then, to my surprise, I found many articles stating it was sexist to exploit women that way. To me, all I saw were a lot of action scenes where girls do stuff while wearing various outfits.

The thing is, the sex appeal completely flew over my head: I didn't find Emily Browning or any of the girls that attractive so I just focused on the action scenes and anime fights. Does this mean I'm sexist? Do you find Sucker Punch sexist? Is there an underlying subtext that I'm missing?

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I found this article to be useful regarding sexism in SP:

http://www.slantmagazine.com/house/2011/05/sucker-punch-and-the-fetish ized-image


"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

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When does it get to the point?

---
Lincoln Lee: I lost a partner.
Peter Bishop: I lost a universe!

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I don't find this sexist, it's fighting against sexism. This isn't just a movie about girls kicking ass, which is a general males dream. They have resilience and fight for freedom.

This isn't just a simple movie that is depicted by the third layer, a movie about action girls who have to go from point A to point B to retrieve this to help fight a monster and overthrow the government and protect the village. It isn't like that. It's the internal struggle of a woman, who can represent all women since a lot of women have been in abusive relationships and are sexualized.



I was MovieKid56, but then I was cured alright

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Why is it that women are not allowed to be in any way attractive or sexy? Is 300 sexist for having countless shirtless xylophone-abbed men running around? Whenever it's with women they're being 'objectified' or 'fetishized'. No one complains then and we view the movie as more than just glorified porn.

People who throw criticisms like that at a film like this are really the ones displaying the old fashioned attitude but hiding it behind accusations of sexism. Flappers in the 20s wore their skirts short in defiance of the double standards against female sexuality.

I'm gonna die of long hair!

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Every single instance of men who have ever been "objectified" in movies (I put quotes because they aren't being humiliated or subservient since the comparison seems to have escaped you) is always commented on my people because they finally realize the shoes on the other foot at that point and it makes them think "oh this is what weve done to women the whole time, I always hear men talk about "oh that's objectification" whenever theres a guy with less clothes, and women hardly ever say anything because theyre so used to being cast as an object, so wtf are you talking about? How is a man showing how strong and powerful he is (by the way a stomach isn't being objectified so try again) comparable in any way to the objectification women face? Your example is almost laughable. And whens the last time you saw an unattractive woman in a movie? Women aren't allowed to be sexy? Theyre forced to be "sexy" all the time, and when they aren't theyre made fun of endlessly. Wheres your rock and how long have you been under it?

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I agree with mv5. Objectification is treating a human like a thing without regard to their dignity. There is a difference in being objectified and being lusted for.

Sucker Punch gives the inevitable truth about female sexuality: It can be your greatest weakness or your most powerful weapon. When men perceive sex as a right and disregard a female's feelings and needs as a human, the female's only value and purpose in his eyes is to provide sex. In the mental institution, lobotomies were sometimes used on unqualified female patients to achieve sexual compliance. On the other hand, women can use their sexuality as a means to an end and will do so. Rich old men may rule the world, but they can be manipulated by the young attractive female. Some feminist will argue that exotic dancing is demeaning, others say it is empowering. I would say it takes advantage of the inevitable objectification.

Women are constantly pressured to look a certain way or face criticism... but as soon as a woman flaunts her sexuality, she is chastised by other women and men alike! I think this is what the wise man was addressing when he said to work together- stop hurting each other and work together for your common good. So guys, us promoting feminism does not equate to 'man-hating' in this context. We want to enjoy sexual expression without being punished for it like men do.

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We have been idealizing humans in art for a long time, the muscular male and the voluptuous woman. Here in stories we show how much more there is to a person than that, so even on the surface we see lots of skin and great form there is always more to the image than that.

A truly sexist film would just put the woman as eye candy, a supporting character to help the hero, but here we get resilient women who fight against men and use what usually makes them vulnerable into an advantage.

The argument feminists have over stripping, porn and prostitution will go on forever.

I was MovieKid56, but then I was cured alright

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That's because paying down and out humans to do anything (the fact that its sexual is even worse) will always be looked down upon by those with principle

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Yep. Ugly Women that dont like seeing good looking Women in films have the same ego crushing experience skinny young Men feel seeing big tough guys kicking butt in action films. Both male female ideals make people feel insecure. It happens to both sexes.

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I always hear men talk about "oh that's objectification" whenever theres a guy with less clothes


I have NEVER heard any man say this and I have never thought this in my life. Try harder.

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I liked Sucker Punch, consider it one of my favourite movies, and watch it several times per year. And I have thought about the "sexism vs. empowerment" debate since it was released.

******Need I Mention SPOILERS Ahead***********

Here's the thing. It is basically the story of an abused girl (victim) who gets sent to an institution where she is further abused or threatened to be abused. She attempts an escape with her fellow inmates, but eventually gets lobotomized unjustly. The guard who arranged the wrongful lobotomy is "caught" afterwards. That's it. All the rest of it is just fantasy inside her head, the brothel, the burlesque dances, the fantastic fight sequences. Revenge/rebellion fantasy, escape fantasy, girl power (over sleazy men) fantasy.

Sucker Punch is NOT some noble spirited, empowering manifesto for the ages (ala Thelma and Louise, The Accused, Burning Bed) about the exploited justifiably fighting back. But neither is it merely sexploitation fluff, thinly disguised as a revenge film (ala I Spit on Your Grave, The Hills Have Eyes, even Kill Bill), where the plot formula is essentially "terribly wronged victim survives and comes back to get revenge on her attackers".

I'm going to suggest that this film falls instead under the category of adolescent male titillation fantasy, as is so prevalent in manga, super-hero comics, and gaming, created by (and primarily for) young males. It's more like Tomb Raider, Xena, Aeon Flux, Resident Evil, The Fifth Element, almost any comic book based movie.

I love the fight choreography, weapons handling, action and stunts. But the dead giveaway is the 1) skimpy impractical costuming and 2) supernaturally high combat prowess in defiance of physics. I am not complaining, mind you. You are either a person that appreciates and accepts this Hollywood film convention (smokin' hot chicks kicking ass) or you're not. Just don't make Sucker Punch, or such films, out to be the Schindler's List of feminism.

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andrewsk8s writes: "Sucker Punch is NOT some noble spirited..."

I think quite a few people would dispute this. Myself included.

"I'm going to suggest that this film falls instead under the category of adolescent male titillation fantasy..."

This, of course, is the most facile interpretation. But the film has at least two layers of figurative meaning; and judging from some of the posts on this board over the years, probably more.



 "Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

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You compare the half naked Spartans with the slutty dressed woman of the brothel/fantasy world?

Was there a purposefully sexy made Spartan? I cant remember.

Nudity itself isnt sexism.

---
Lincoln Lee: I lost a partner.
Peter Bishop: I lost a universe!

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There's an episode of "Married with Children" where Al and Steve are oogling a female plumber who's sexy, and Darcy walks in and complains about the sexism of that, then she and Peggy go to a male strip joint.

Not saying that's exactly what's going on here but I always think of that when I hear things like this. I've known plenty of girls/women in my life who would view things like that: when women do it it's okay, when men do it, it's not.

-Nam

I am on the road less traveled...

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Exactly. Babydoll and some of the other women have been targeted for sexuality. But in the fantasies, instead of hiding behind gender neutral clothes, they are using their sexuality to fight back.

They are owning their sexuality, taking or keeping it away from the men who exploit them. They are not going to hide it or be ashamed of it. They are not going to pretend they are naive, blushing virgins who don't know what sex is. They have the power to make their decisions over their personal lives.

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"But in the fantasies, instead of hiding behind gender neutral clothes, they are using their sexuality to fight back. "

Well, except in the final fantasy level, they aren't. They're using guns and swords and giant robots to fight back, and just happen to be wearing sexy clothes while doing it. It makes the metaphor a bit muddled. They feel sexually exploited by men, but then fantasize about dressing in ways men will inevitably find attractive. It seems that would be something they would want to distance themselves from (or herself, as it's really only one girl's fantasy, and not actually the group's).

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I've just started watching this and staggered by the anti men sexism in it.


Only those with no valid argument pick holes in people's spelling and grammar.

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It doesn't really paint us in a nice light, does it?

Having said that, it's hardly misandrous or sexist. It's portrayal of predatory men is all too realistic.

I think you may be overlooking the importance of Scott Glen's character, Wise Man. Admittedly Wise Man is the only likeable male character, and he's utterly perfect.

He doesn't swing in and save anyone. He doesn't fight their battles for them. He doesn't do any of those "knight in shining armour" things. What he does is support, guide, nurture, care for, advise and protect them. As far as the movie goes, he redeems all men.

As an aside, whilst typing this I noticed that my Firefox editor (currently set to US English, not my native Australian English) puts a squiggly red underline beneath the word "misandrous", "misandry" and all derivatives thereof. It does no such thing for the word "misogyny" or any of its derivatives.

For those who don't know, misogyny is the hatred of women and misandry is the hatred of men.

Perhaps US English is misandrous...

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Did the Wise Man get pvssy in the end, because he was good and wise?? Did he get anything out of helping them? No. He was only there to serve these girls. That's where women want men. They don't want men to have desires of their own, needs of their own, aspirations of having a wife and family. No. Women want men to serve them unconditionally. That's what these female empowerment movies are telling me.

They say women are acted upon and men act on them. They don't say that only a chosen few men in our society are actually as evil Isaac or the stepdad in this film. And they are really, literally mentally ill. NOT EVIL.

Get off your soapbox while I play you a tune on the tiniest violin.

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I think you've missed the point of Wise Man.

The girls ended up in the mental facility because their father figures (real fathers or step fathers) were, basically, the scum of society. The girls ended up being lobotomised, abused and prostituted because they wouldn't bend to the will of their father figures.

The Wise Man is there to show exactly what those father figures SHOULD have done. They should have been kind, wise, nurturing, guiding and supportive. The Wise Man is there to point out that had the girls had a real father figure in their life, then they wouldn't have ended up where they did.

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Please explain how exactly you know what all women want from all men. That would be a fascinating dissertation. In the same post, you then go on to complain that "They don't say that only a chosen few men in our society are actually as evil Isaac or the stepdad in this film." I'm sorry, do you actually need the film to tell you that? Did Star Wars need a character to stand on top of a big rock and say "You know, not all guys are like Darth Vader?" So you manage a broad-brush criticism of women and then immediately follow it up with a complaint of "not all men."

And really, if the only reason you can think of for helping someone is that you might get laid, you are the one with the problem.

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People who think this movie was sexist is either stupid or didn't actually see the movie.

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you don't realize that sexism is not about clothing. you can put 20 hot girls into sexy clothes and still deliver a statement that fights sexism.

sucker punch is sexist because of one simple fact. it states that men are strong and women are weak. it states that men lead and women follow. it states that without men, women don't know what to do.

some of you said that it isn't sexist because it shows the girls in various war-like scenes where they are shown as strong individuals who fight for their freedom. maybe you noticed that all of the alternate reality scenes start with some kind of mission briefing: the girls recieve orders - from men. there are always some unkown general-like male figures in charge of everything. they have a plan, they know what to do, they are the strategic masterminds who come up with some kind of plan. the girls listen, then they go out and carry out their orders. that's it. nothing more.

they never question male authority in the fantasy scenes. they take it as a given fact. and this is why sucker punch is sexist.

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Yes, they are in a weak position in the movie.
And the movie is saying that is a bad thing.

Musn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling

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they never question male authority in the fantasy scenes. they take it as a given fact. and this is why sucker punch is sexist.


And people say this movie hasn't been misunderstood...

some of you said that it isn't sexist because it shows the girls in various war-like scenes where they are shown as strong individuals who fight for their freedom. maybe you noticed that all of the alternate reality scenes start with some kind of mission briefing: the girls recieve orders - from men. there are always some unkown general-like male figures in charge of everything. they have a plan, they know what to do, they are the strategic masterminds who come up with some kind of plan. the girls listen, then they go out and carry out their orders. that's it. nothing more.


The "unknown general-like male figures in charge of everything" (The Wise Man, played by Scott Glenn) is the only benevolent man the girls ever encounter - throughout the entirety of the movie - and he is only a figment of Sweet Pea's imagination (yes, I'm a proponent of "it's Sweet Pea who is telling the story", but I'm not going to be discussing that under this topic). He's telling them what needs to be done, gives them hints on how to do it and protects them as far as he is able - then when he's given them all he's got, he lets them take charge themselves. Kind of like how a good father should be - which, it's hinted at, is an experience the girls have never had. So he is the only character in the entire movie who only exists on the fantasy levels. Everyone else exists in the Asylum.

There are several things that are sub-par or even bad about this movie, but sexism is not one of them - at least not in the form you posit it.

Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

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Well, you're a bigger fan of this movie than I am, but speaking generally. . .People throw the word "sexism" around too much, but I always find it funny that the ass-kicking women in movies also always happen to be sexy as hell. Four of the actresses in here are about 100 lbs. soaking wet. The other one (Abby Cornish) is physically a little bigger, but is hardly going to kick any male's ass in real life.

There seems to be some kind of strange male sex fantasy behind the butt-kicking babe movies in the sense that they rarely cast an actress who looks like she could take ME, let alone half a dozen hulking, muscular guys. Some say this is "female empowerment", some say it's "sexism" masquerading as "female empowerment". I don't know what it is. But I'm hesitant to give it too much creedence either way.

The girls in this movie are very cute, and I like the unreliable fantasy narrative, but--fantasy or not--unbelievably gorgeous girls who kick ass is a tiresome Hollywood stereotype, and I just found this movie incredibly overblown in every sense of the word.

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Having been a student of martial arts for several years, I can tell you that you are wrong.

Butt-kicking babes are very real. In the martial arts world, women tend to be better fighters. Whilst men, particularly muscular men, try to bulldoze their way through opponents with their strength, women tend to focus on technique and speed.

I have, more than once, seen a 55kg woman take on and beat an 85kg man of an equal or higher grade. I haven't seen many fights go the other way.

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LOL. Uh huh. I've seen real boxing matches on YouTube, showing exactly how much butt women can kick when faced with a real opponent... and not someone who will take a fall... like most of the male stuntmen are clearly doing in these movies.

Get off your soapbox while I play you a tune on the tiniest violin.

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The "unknown general-like male figures in charge of everything" (The Wise Man, played by Scott Glenn
Considering the fact that we are dealing with dreams and fantasies, I think it is safe to say he is the Jung archetype for old man.

I was MovieKid56, but then I was cured alright

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You're missing the point, and in doing so, putting men in a position where they are sexist regardless of what they do.

Men are sexist for abusing the girls in the film. When a man helps them by guiding, nurturing and supporting them, you still call it sexist.

You are actually wrong about the girl's relationship with the Wise Man (it's only one man, not "men" as you stated). They question his guidance when Baby Doll recruits them. They question and doubt her and ultimately decide that she (and by default, the guidance given to her by the Wise Man) is right.

Also, it's the girls who come up with the plan, and cope in the field when things don't go their way. The Wise Man gives them their objective and offers advice, but it's up to them how to achieve it.

The men in these girls lives have been utter trash and treated them appallingly. These men were fathers and stepfathers - men who are meant to be positive, guiding forces in their lives and pillars of nurturing support. What they have in the Wise Man is everything they have been denied. The movie draws a very powerful picture of the difference between abuse and nurturing.

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And not only that, but their names are all sexist even the psychiatrist who gets the least sexy name because she isn't put in the place of a sex object. "Babydoll" "SweetPea" "Blondie" etc are derogatory names women have been called by men trying to put them down in the past. The girl named Babydoll has to perform an erotic dance to distract the men FFS. Yeah nothing sexist about that. What freedom do they get at the end anyway? The one who was most hurt by a man is left brain damaged and fake free. You can see by reading the reviews section that most men only remember seeing girls in hardly any clothes looking and acting sexy. Not much gaining of any subliminal message (but those guys would argue with if they read the word "sexist"- they'd say "You weren't smart enough to get the message" :D ). Meanwhile, "So and so is so sexy" and "Gee her boyfriend is so lucky" still go under the radar here.

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LOL. So, men don't take orders or get briefings from other men... or even women in combat situations?? It's all about sexism and the condescension that women are naturally stupid?? LMAO. You feminist idiots really give me a good laugh sometimes. The dumb sh!t you come up with.

Get off your soapbox while I play you a tune on the tiniest violin.

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As a woman, I don't agree. I'm fully aware where most of the sexism aimed at me comes from.

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I saw an article that defined a pro-female movie in two ways:
- There are at least two strong female characters
- They talk to each other, but about a subject other than a man.

There are actually very few movies that have these two basic elements.

Sucker Punch simply blows these elements away. There are at least three main female characters (Baby-Doll, Sweet-Pea and Rocket), and even that is being conservative. They all talk to each other, and not one conversation involves them talking romantically about a man. They do talk about Blue, but as a villain, not a romance interest.

On the other hand there is only really one main character and that is Blue. The father and old man are really secondary in this movie.

So in movie making terms, this movie is actually feminist in nature because females control the main roles and are not dominated romantically by a male.

I personally don't find the movie sexist and don't see the characters as sexual objects. On the contrary, I feel sympathy for them and want them to escape. Considering the girls are wearing reasonably sexy clothes, the director did a great job in making the character of the girls overshadow their sexiness.

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The Bechdel Test is pseudo-scientific nonsense, it was "invented" as a sort of joke for a comic-strip. Maybe when applied to a large number of movies the resulting statistics might say something about persistent sexism (or gender dominance) in Hollywood or the movie industry in general, but you can't draw meaningful conclusions from it for an individual film.

______
Nuno Bettencourt - "Midnight Express"
https://y2u.be/KaMcf63f7Ic

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So that is what it is called. Interesting.

Of course, passing that test doesn't stop a movie being sexist. At best, it only gives an indication of gender dominance as you rightly said.

In judging gender dominance, SP still significantly passes the test. There are 6 female named characters, while there are is only one named male character. Indeed, SP would fail the Bedchel test if it was applied to men rather than women.

But whether a movie is sexist or not is another matter. That is more how the woman is portrayed. For example, Gravity fails the Bedchel test, but I would't say that was a sexist movie.

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By gender dominance I meant gender dominance in the movie industry; the guys who run the movie studios and whose subjective world views, tastes and preferences influence and partly shape the output of Hollywood. For example, regardless of the director's intentions, Sucker Punch was obviously greenlighted by a bunch of guys in suits who don't mind making a movie that prominently features young girls doing stretchy karate kicks in skimpy/tight outfits; because they know it sells. I wasn't talking about the amount of female characters in an individual movie.

By the way, the Bechdel Test doesn't really have to do with the amount of female characters in movies, for example a movie like G. I. Jane passes the test but more than 80% or the characters there are males. And on the other hand there will be many movies that fail the Bechdel Test but where female characters are in the majority (for example, porn movies; and I suspect many episodes of "Sex And The City also fail the Bechdel Test because it seems that all the female protagonists do is talk about men).

But I wholeheartedly agree with the last paragraph of your post.

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
https://y2u.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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