Please dont compare


Michael Moore and his followers to liberals. They are socialists. There is a huge difference. (If you are an American, please dont bother replying to this, it would take to long to explain why there is a difference).

Of course he is manipulative and he makes some obvious points in his movies that could be explained by a five year old. Im surprised people takes it seriously.

I enjoy most of his movies, they are very entertaining. But an actual debate from these movies, that you havent already thought of yourself. Don't be silly.

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He's more of a social democrat, not a socialist.

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Well, I would reply but since I am American I can't possibly know the difference so... how bout the weather recently, huh?

Everyone thinks everyone else on IMDB is an idiot.

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Well i find it interesting that while on the energy goes into the supposed shock and awe that moore is egostistical and self-serving and whatnot..nobody seems to ask about in msm the Legit subjects raised in so far as the bin ladens granted free passes to leave when Air Travel was seriously restricted, and so forth.

just a thought

"If u had 3 wishes, what would they be. Would u change yourself or would u try and change me"

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palindromious, you're correct. Michael Moore is not a liberal. He may have some liberal ideas, but anybody who knows how to check for definitions in a dictionary knows that liberal means "open-minded".

There are so many people out there who claim there's a "liberal media" or "liberal agenda" and what they don't realize (or care to) is that they have it all wrong. If there was a liberal media, then we'd be hearing about all the bad stuff that goes on in the U.S. and the world, not just what the editors want us to read in the newspapers or see on TV. Yes, you can dislike the Republicans when you're a liberal, but to be one, you have to be fair and admit to the problems that the Democrats have.

Its more likely you'll find life on Mars before you ever find a true liberal politician.

And I didn't like this stupid, incredibly one-sided movie one bit. The message of this film seems to just be "If you hate corruption, ignore it or we'll start attacking you as being unpatriotic?"

At least Moore went out after both parties. He went after the GOP for not caring about the individual citizen and the Democrats for being weak and not stopping the GOP. The filmmakers of Manufacturing Dissent seem to just be happy wearing blinders. Watch this film only if you follow Fox News and their special brand of "fair and balanced only when we see fit" journalism.

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Moore is a Marxist which means he believes that inequalities in a society are a product of authority originating from traditional institutions such as Capitalism, Religions, Schools, Police/military, etc... .

Marxism was originally identified with the worker's movement but the 'proletariat' eventually proved to be an ineffective vehicle for revolution because every low-class worker wanted to become part of the middle class, and eventually, upper class... much like Moore has succeeded in doing.

Moore built a career on "Questioning Authority" but now that he's become a big (and rich) success, he's not willing to allow himself to be challenged in any meaningful way. In effect, Moore has become just like the 'greedy white republicans' he mocked and despised: avoiding 1on1 interviews and removing unfriendly media from his venues.


People don't go to Moore's films to learn anything they don't already know or believe, they go to the movies so their beliefs can be reaffirmed in a collective meeting. His fans will say that they don't care about inaccuracies because "he tells it like it is" which means "he tells them what they want to hear." It reminds me of "10 minutes of Hate" ritual described in Orwell's 1984, where the citizenry are expected to stand up and curse at their enemies.

I was a fan of his back when I thought he was supporting the 'regular folks'against downsizing, can anyone see what he has in common with a typical American family now?

-an American

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Thats a copout

Thats like saying One Can't Enjoy Bruce Springsteen or John Mellancamp music becausw while the themes of many of their songs revolve around the working man, since they are super-mega-rich, then they couldnt' possibly remember where they came from.

"If u had 3 wishes, what would they be. Would u change yourself or would u try and change me"

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i can't say much about springsteen-he's not been very successful lately (only reuniting with the e-street band to play their classic hits). I think he became a success because his songs were so positive and optimistic whereas pinkos like moore and sean penn have nothing positive to say. They just attack, attack, attack.

I belive the working class to be very patriotic and they don't want to hear these attacks. In fact, I wonder how many 'working class' people actually read michael moore. He gives most of his lectures to university students at college campuses; basically, to young middle class/upperclass people who have been conditioned to be ashamed of their race, their family's economic success, and their country.

but there's a further difference between the work of artists like Springsteen and the product of Moore. Songs/lyrics are not a discourse, it's metaphorical use of language: It's art. A poem isn't expected to reveal factual knowledge,just imagine if that were so:

Two roads diverged in a wood, (when and where?)
and I--
I took the one less traveled by, (how do you know it was less traveled?)
And that has made all the difference. (how do you know it made a difference?)
-Robert frost



Moore isn't using metaphor, he wants his data is to be taken literally which is why he uses the Documentary format. Then, when some of his facts are proven false, he says it's all satire anyway so it doesn't have to be true (he has said this).

Meanwhile he continues to disparage america and Americans: calling us stupid. "America is the last country you want to be like" he said in an Interview in Australia. despite his success, he still berates his home country endlessly.

Has micheal moore ever had anything positive to say about america? That would be a good question if one were to go to one of his "lectures". Cuban refugees don't seem to mind giving up their free health care and risking their lives to get here, we must be doing something right.

in "the big one" moore asked phil knight (ceo of nike) "wouldn't it be enough to be HALF a millionaire?" Now it's his turn to answer that question.

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Nebraska was optimistic? Born in the usa was perhaps the most pessimistic tune on radio stations.

You have a rather simplistic world view. I suggest travelling a bit ouside the borders. Only in America would and Actor and a filmmaker be treated as some sort of threat to the American dream. Sean Penn a Communist now? Thats hilarious

"If u had 3 wishes, what would they be. Would u change yourself or would u try and change me"

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bornintheusa: it was so successful because no one knew the lyrics.
Born to Run, Glory Days, dancing in the dark: other hits of his that had no political content.

just for your information, i grew up outside the US. I've lived in Indonesia, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, and Mexico. I've traveled to about 10 other countries. What does travelling outside the US have anything to do with this discussion? Are you trying to imply that my perspective is somehow difficient? What country do i need to go to in order to be enlightened? Holland? Sweden? Germany? These countries are dying because their quasi-socialist entitlement programs have made life so peachy that the citizens don't feel the need to procreate, so their governments have to import new taxpayers from the most intolerant cultures on the planet.

doc·u·men·ta·ry
Movies, Television. based on or RE-CREATING AN ACTUAL EVENT, era, life story, etc., that purports to be FACTUALLY ACCURATE and contains NO FICTIONAL ELEMENTS.

-Moore cannot be considered a documentarian because:
(bowling for columbine) His office arranged his background check 1 month in advance before he could receive his rifle from the bank. moore made it seem as though anyone could walk in and get a gun.

(bowling for columbine) moore quotes heston "[the NRA is] already here." he didn't show the previous 30 seconds where heston was talking about how nra members are part of the local community including police and fire/rescue forces that responded to columbine.

(roger&me) Moore claims he never met "Roger" when in fact they met 2 times.

there are more examples on websites and in books but i'm not going to post them just for you because it seems you're not interested in things like honesty, truthfulness, and integrity.

prop·a·gan·da
–noun 1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or HARM a person, group, movement, institution, NATION, etc.
2. the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.
3. the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.



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Oh well heck Ive never said Mike is a classic Documentarian. Thats jus the slot thats open to Non-Fiction Films by and large.

Anyway the Born in the usa thing is telling. Hilarious that it was as u say "so successful because no one knew the lyrics" Are you suggesting that had they known what the lyrics were saying, besides jus the Chanting of born in the USA, that it wouldnt have been? Think about that. I disagree with you on that, Born in the USA, like Mellencamps Scarecrow as well as lonesome jubilee albums were successfull becaus they combined a message and catchy riffy danceable "fun"tunes.

Funny u mention the propaganda cause thats precisly what the American Media did in terms of beating the War drums for Iraq.

Have enjoyed our discussion, hope it continues,

Peace on Earth Goodwill to all....

"If u had 3 wishes, what would they be. Would u change yourself or would u try and change me"

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What country do i need to go to in order to be enlightened? Holland? Sweden? Germany? These countries are dying because their quasi-socialist entitlement programs have made life so peachy that the citizens don't feel the need to procreate, so their governments have to import new taxpayers from the most intolerant cultures on the planet.


Being a Swedish citizen, I can't help but wonder what your sources are. I can't deny that your basic premise is true. There is a growing labour deficit in our part of the world and some political forces are stressing that immigration is necessary to prevent this tendency. However, my impression is that they are primarily using this argument in order to counter the alarming expansion of xenophobic far-right parties in Northern Europe. As yet, the labour deficit is by no means as serious as you make it out to be.

"[M]ost intolerant cultures in the world", you say? The vast majority of the immigrants who make their way to Sweden etc are refugees who flee from war (primarily the Iraqi war at the moment - please send my thanks to Washington DC), oppression and/or abject poverty. It is true that many of them come from countries where cultural and political intolerance is rampant (usually courtesy of the totalitarian regimes that govern said countries). While many immigrants from the Islamic world certainly find it difficult to fit in, especially those who belonged to the poor and unschooled classes in their homelands, there are many who are highly educated and who have been exposed to modern ideas and cultural currents - and who were forced to flee from their countries for that very reason. These people are a great resource for their adopted countries, and I reckon that the rest will follow suit eventually, even though it might take them a generation or two (not unlike the descendants of the poor working class Irish, Italians, Jews etc who migrated to the US in the latter half of the 19th century).

-----

I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.

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That is a cop-out Lijan, people from Arab countries have been migrating to European countries for decades, far before the Bush administration. In fact one of the prime reasons the middle east is so unstable is European not US influence. Look at the fall of the Ottoman Empire, fake "countries" put together with ancient tribes and city states by England and France after WWI and WWII. Kurds, Shi'a and Sunni. What could possibly go wrong?

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Well he doesn't seem to be a marxist to me. I've always had the feeling that Moore's sentiment goes out to the ones who are in need. And in doing so advocates the redistribution of wealth, i.e. social democracy. And since Karl Marx famously said that social democracy is the greatest threat to the proletariat I find it hard to believe Moore being a marxist.

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Oh sir I be not know wat you talkin bout cuz I american! Oh lawdy lawdy sir pleasa share yo wisdum! I bow down to u and da rest of this crazy intelligent world.

I hate you so much...

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Moore is not a liberal, a Marxist, or a socialist. Moore is a angry asswipe who saw a niche and is milking it for all it's worth! if you are deluded enough to believe he is your great liberal champion you need a lobotomy. He worships the all-mighty dollar just like the republicans he pretends to be saving us from! The only difference between Michael Moore and George Bush is about 500 pounds and Bush is a better dresser.

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