I just watched the trailer and this is just my opinion, but...
I think i no longer want to be Christian... (jk)
how can they sleep at night? Ok. the story is obviously public domain, and its a good story. But why make a crappy CG animated version when it was just made so artfully in 2d not that long ago. Aside from the animation looking ridiculously bad, it looks like they just watched Prince of Egypt over and over and then just copied it... but instead of making a good copy (which we didnt need either), they made a crappy one.
I am thinking they hope Christians will just watch it because it is from the Bible and maybe because the voice actor of Moses is named "Christian". (the website has Church resources as a link so i think they are going to try and push this on church-goers). I seriously doubt this is going to reach the local cineplex, but stranger things have happened.
Ben Kingsly looks like he is thinking, "This should pay for my daughters new BMW" when he was sitting there in front of the mike, not "this is a great project"...
Who knows what they were thinking, but they should have built a missionary church or something with the money instead of paying hollywood actors that will whore themselves out for an easy days work doing voice overs... as if the names attached are somehow going to cover up what we are looking at and fool us into believing we are watching a quality Pixar movie.
I agree - and I would be called a 'Christian' by others. Religion is a man made way of quantifying God - hence 'God is telling us to start a war, invade somewhere, hate people etc'. God however, wants a relationship with us. Then He can show us what He is like. The word 'Christian' appears 3 times in the bible - it was a nickname to describe disciples of Jesus. This is the way to go - as we have to be taught by Him, not decide what He thinks for Him. God doesn't need that!
"GOD"saved my life!!!But why did he put me in danger in the first place?? pretty sadistic mindset that supposed entity has!! can i retake any of "GOD's"tests??i mean if i kill someone or hump my neighbour's wife.is it a done deal,cuz then i might aswell just go bonanza the rest of my life.cuz im sorry to say that im not born with the capability to feel compasion or make moral decisions without consulting the bible,it happens that i havent read a single line of the "good book"in my life and proberbly never will,after seeing this movie im not really curious for more,the terminater movies and Arthur c.clark books are far superiour fiction to this,but interresting ideeas,i havent seen that parting of the water trick in any other movies,there also was that movie by M.Gibson,with that Jesus caracter innit.i feel that if Gipson had chosen to have the lead being stoned instead of hammered to some planks!!it would have worked much better.I think from the same figure universe.i saw this comedy not long ago about a politician,who was told by this man to build a giant ship in his giant backyard,and when he was finished,animals came from all the world to join him, but again "GOD"played a joke on the poor man,the big flood that he was warned about was just a local dam burst,and he could have warned the dude to get his stuff and leave,and why gather animals from all over the world,to save them from a local disaster,they never was near in the first place, in conclusion cristians have no contact with reality.and life is so basic and simple that all the answers is written in a single book,good job!!
"Ben Kingsly looks like he is thinking, "This should pay for my daughters new BMW" when he was sitting there in front of the mike, not "this is a great project"... "
Yeah, i am quite disappointed with Ben Kingsley. He even came in that crappy b-grade production "Bloodrayne". I guess, he simply did this one too for the money.
Could it be that none of you is the target audience for this production? Did you slam the Veggie Tales movie as vociferously? Children who wouldn't give the original Ten Commandments the time of day could flock to this one and might even learn something along the way. Give the producers a break.
Producers of films are not reliable sources when it comes to communicating who the target audience of a film is. Producers want as many people to go see a film as possible, therefore they are all inclusive when speaking in those terms. With few exceptions (South Park movie, Simpsons movie, etc.) animated films, although they can be enjoyed by adults, are generally targeted to youngsters.
"Producers of films are not reliable sources when it comes to communicating who the target audience of a film is. Producers want as many people to go see a film as possible, therefore they are all inclusive when speaking in those terms"
Then why did you defend the producers in the post.
You're assuming that I was slamming producers in my second post when I was not. I was simply making a statement of fact. Producers by their very nature want as many people as possible to see the films they're connected with and it would be foolish of them to announce that it's aimed at a certain group to the exclusion of others thereby limiting the boxoffice take. I believe I have been consistent in defending producers in both posts.
My daughter, an admitted movie freak, is very excited about seeing this movie, and my wife and I are taking her this weekend. I have the same problem with "Movie Critics," they never see the movie from the view of those who the movie was intended for. In this case, this movie was made for my Daughter's Generation (many of who will be experiencing this story fot the first time), and if my wife and I happen to enjoy it as well, well, that's all gravy.
I don't know how old your daughter is, but I'm eighteen and I would much rather watch Demille's 1956 version with Charlton Heston. I'm not slamming you for taking her to it, but maybe your family should watch it as well.
I am the target audience, but i will be disappointed if my church tried to get behind this and i certainly wouldn't waste my money to take my daugeter to see this when i have The Prince of Egypt at home. The point is that it isn't going to be good or inspired, but rather just cranked out to make money off of Christians.
christians didn't steal christmas from the pagans, they created it near a pagan holiday in an attempt to eliminate the pagans. christians have been doing this for years, and any "christian holiday" was only created to rid the world of a pagan holiday, next thing you know there is going to be a new christian holiday the day after Yom kippur and the jews are going to be forgotten all about, or some crap like that, as far as this movie goes, if your kids want to learn about moses, watch the prince of egypt, it was made less than ten years ago, i remember when it came out, and if you are an adult, well then watch charlton heston as moses, that is a great version of this story, my point is, making money off of the same moses story is getting very old and i for one am growing weary of the moses story. Is this the only bible story people know, i understand that they are planning on releasing 12 movies from the bible, but they could have saved some time by not making the ten commandments again
Christ was Jewish also technically making his story a Jewish story. Did Christians steal that too? Stealing implies that someone takes something that does not belong to them thereby denying the original owner use of that thing. That has not happened here. The story of Moses has long been shared and revered by Jews and Christians alike as Christ referenced Moses many times. You don't hide your religious bigotry very well.
"Christ was Jewish also technically making his story a Jewish story." Jews obviously don't consider the story of Christ as a Jewish story. If they did, it would be part of their biblical canon. For starters, no one knows the background about the writers of Gospels, since they are all anonymous.
I have read on many Jewish forums, where Jews say that the Gospels were more likely to be written by Gentile than a Jew, since they contain mistakes which no knowledgeable Jew would write.
"Stealing implies that someone takes something that does not belong to them thereby denying the original owner use of that thing."
Yes, Christians don't do that today, but for centuries Christians believed that Jews are a "lost" people, and that Christians have replaced them. At many times in history, Christians banned Jews from practicing their religion or read their scripture, which by very essence fulfills your definition of stealing.
Let's see, Christ was born in Israel, to a Jewish mother, Joseph was Jewish, all of his disciples were Jewish, his brother's were Jewish, his cousin John the Baptist was Jewish... Tell me, what part of His story isn't Jewish? Just because it's not part of "their biblical canon" doesn't mean it's not a Jewish story. By that token I suppose you don't consider the Halocaust a Jewish story because it's not part of the Jewish canon. The story of St. Francis of Assisi isn't part of the Christian "biblical canon," but his story is certainly a Christian one.
Why would you rely on the opinions of Jews with regard to who wrote the Christian Gospels? If you wanted to know who wrote the Koran would you ask a bunch of Rastafarians? Why don't you go out on a limb and actually ask some Christian scholars who wrote the Christian Gospels. Just a thought.
As for your last point, I will say that, as far as I know today, no Jew is banned by Christians from practicing his religion how he sees fit. Why don't you judge us on that rather than on what some Christians may or may not have erroneously believed a thousand years ago.
"Let's see, Christ was born in Israel, to a Jewish mother, Joseph was Jewish, all of his disciples were Jewish, his brother's were Jewish, his cousin John the Baptist was Jewish... Tell me, what part of His story isn't Jewish?"
So.....just because all the original Mormons were Christians, is their saga of their origins considered a valid "Christian" story?
Last time, I checked, most Christians deny this, in the same way as most Jews deny the story of Jesus as a Jewish tale.
"Why would you rely on the opinions of Jews with regard to who wrote the Christian Gospels? If you wanted to know who wrote the Koran would you ask a bunch of Rastafarians? "
Because the Koran is not claiming it was written by Rastafarians.
"Why don't you go out on a limb and actually ask some Christian scholars who wrote the Christian Gospels. Just a thought." What makes you think I have not. I have, and they basically don't know.
The only thing they can cite is Church Tradition, not historical fact.
"As for your last point, I will say that, as far as I know today, no Jew is banned by Christians from practicing his religion how he sees fit"
Maybe you didn't read what I said
"Me-Yes, Christians don't do that today, "
But when the spokesmen of Fundamentalist Christianity like Ann Coutler start to describe Jews as being "incomplete" or rebelious, it isn't difficult to imagine that if Fundamentalist Christians had their way, they would prevent Jews from practicing their "incomplete/inferior" religion
Damm this is so crappy animation. If they would to it better, then this movie would be watchable. Plus all the scenes look like the same in the 2d version.
Lemme guess - you have't actually seen the film. I love people who trash movies based on trailers. If you're not in the target audience, don't go! Oh, and you'll find the same scenes in the Heston version - it's the same story. Duh. Having seen the film myself, I can say the story was great, the animation average - I doubt they had a Pixar budget, but I'd rather watch a great story with some dodgy animation than great animation with a rubbish story.
Very well put Kentucky_Bootleg. You say that they'll grow out of their religious bigotry eventually, but I must disagree on that minor point. There may come a day where overt bigotry against people of faith is not as PC as it is today, but these people will still harbor their bigotry in their hearts even if it is not outwardly displayed. Similar to the way racists of all stripes began hiding their racist feelings after the civil rights movement. They're just as racist as they ever were, they just can't show it without penalty.
I totally agree. Why can't someone come along and make a Christian movie on par with a Pixar or Speilberg production? Left Behind was pretty good, as was End of the Spear but usually the acting, quality, and plots are just plain stupid and or cheesy! How about a gritty "wrestling with life and God during tragedy or disaster" or a true to life love story etc. I am hoping the new Veggie Tales pirate movie is good, I loved them when they first came out. Well, anyway, God bless!
^ Your a dumb ass, Hitler wasn't Christian why bring him up? I think whatever religious belief (probably athiest) you have is equally as damaging. Why don't we string you up and shoot you too? You obviously have no respect for other people's beliefs which is what caused things like the muslim religion and christianity to go on thier little rampages... because they had/have no respect for other people. So basically you're no better then them so such your trap.
But yea, we're playing this movie at the theater I work at. It seriously pissed me off. People are paying $11 to go see this *beep* film that looks like its not even enough quality to be released as a TV movie. THe animation is horrible, dialouge, CGI and they just reused an already told story. This film is *beep* but they'll probably make bank on it because of people who go see things just because it's "Christian" instead of because it's a quality product. *tears*
Quite true. Hitler was NOT a Christian. He targeted Jews because he believed that they were of an inferior race, not because of their religion. He was a humanist who believed that the aryan race was the most evolved and deserved to be the master race and whose minions conducted genetic experiments on prisoners. Those are YOUR comrades Mr. marcuswoods, not ours.
"After so many centuries when the dominant Christian tradition was one of denigration, the teaching of contempt and frequently of persecution, this alteration has involved not only the abandonment of entrenched dogmatic beliefs but also the growth of a new and still-building relationship ...... The classic Christian belief was that Jews were no longer the Chosen People of God because they had crucified their Messiah,.... The obstinate refusal of Jews to accept this fate only reinforced the kind of intolerant prejudice amongst Christians, which so easily turned to hostility and violence. Even in more recent centuries, the part played by theologically-based concepts in generating the evil disease of secular antisemitism cannot be denied."
Whether or not he was Christian or a atheist is a matter of debate
But what is true is that he used the historical Christian anti-semitic feelings to perpetuate the Holocaust, in other words, he only did what the majority of Christians had always wished for centuries, be it Catholics or Protestants. I hope you are aware of Martin Luther's dirty little book called "Of the Jews and their Lies", where he gives explicit details about what "true" Christians should do with Jews.
Besides, where was the Christian opposition to the pseudo science of Eugenics?
Show me quotes from the 1840-1945 era where Christians opposed "Eugenics" like the way they oppose Evolution today?
The fact there were very tiny. The reality is that some Evangelicals even went ahead and supported the theory of Eugenics as much as the "evil" secularist did.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4004/is_200207/ai_n9119561 "I hoped that evangelicals in the period 1900-1940 could prove helpful in current debates in bioethics. or the most part I was disappointed.. ... But on the whole the evangelical mainstream in the decades following the turn of the century appeared apathetic, acquiescent, or at times downright supportive of the eugenics movement."
Last time I checked, America was still segregated until the 1960. This is the time, which many Christians today refer to as to "Good Ol' days", where Christianity was still a major part of American ethos.
Prior to 1960s, interracial marriage was banned by nearly all Christian Churches, or at least was heavily frowned upon.
Yes I do contend that the Holocaust was not perpetrated because of Christian/Jew hatred. The Jews were being exterminated because they were viewed as an inferior race as evidenced by the fact that Hitler sent proportionally as many gypsies, homosexuals, mentally handicapped individuals, and converted Jews to the ovens as he did Jews who practiced Judaism.
As for the rest of your long-winded response, suffice it to say that I could find just as many obscure biased websites with an axe to grind to support my arguments, but I will spare the readers of this board. Considering the fact that you're completely blinded by your anti-Christian prejudice, there's no doubt it would do absolutely no good anyway.
"Yes I do contend that the Holocaust was not perpetrated because of Christian/Jew hatred."
Sure, if you want to ignore the proven Historical fact that before the Holocaust, the majority of Christiandom was anti-semitic (ie considered the Jews as a lost people, etc)
"The Jews were being exterminated because they were viewed as an inferior race as evidenced by the fact that Hitler......"
Once again, ignore the fact that majority of the Christians in that time period, had nothing to say against Eugenics(which Hitler was practicing) and that many of them outright supported it.
Ignore the anti-semitic setting of the Christian world, in which the Holocaust occurred.
"suffice it to say that I could find just as many obscure biased websites with an axe to grind to support my arguments"
The Christian-Jewish article was from a Christian University.
The Eugenics article was written by a pro-life Christian who is telling that Evangelicals should learn from their mistakes that their spiritual ancestors made
From the article "First of all, I think it is clear evangelicals have good cause to urge caution upon the scientific and governmental communities who promote social policies based upon any science in its infancy.
.... Secondly, it behooves evangelicals to support active engagement in research areas that touch on human procreation. ..... Finally, evangelicals need to be more astute students of history, particularly the history of theological reflection ..... More effective still is internal critique from professionals inside the disciplines in question. The absence of talented persons in such fields simply abandons those fields to professionals who may not hold a worldview that cherishes persons as reflections of God's image. ...... We as evangelicals need to avail ourselves of the nuanced theological anthropology that has developed over the course of Christian history. ......... Let us encourage such fraternal engagements across the Christian community. Let us work together and further our common cause in the interest of human life and human dignity. "
The twopath website is Christian website.
Care to explain what "axes" these Christians would have to grind? Atleast look before you start to resort to rhetorics
"but I will spare the readers of this board" All I am presenting to the readers are facts, which counter your rhetorics that Hitler was humanist and that Marcuswoord is in the same league as Hitler.
"Considering the fact that you're completely blinded by your anti-Christian prejudice"
I am no more anti-Christian as much as I am anti-muslim. I just don't believe in the Christian message. That's all.
People often make the claim that Adolph Hitler adhered to Atheism, Humanism or some ancient Nordic pagan mythology. None of these fanciful and wrong ideas hold. Although one of Hitler's henchmen, Alfred Rosenberg, did undertake a campaign of Nordic mythological propaganda, Hitler and most of his henchmen did not believe in it.
Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler's "evil" have eliminated Hitler's god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler's God equals the same God of the Christian Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include, God and Providence but also Fate, Social Darwinism, and ideological politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler's stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one's own Christian beliefs. Nor did the Vatican's Pope & bishops ever disown him; in fact they blessed him! As evidence to his claimed Christianity, he said:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, "On the Jews and their Lies," Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther.
Hitler did not have to parade his belief in God, as so many American Christians do now. Nor did he have to justify his Godly belief against an Atheist movement. He took his beliefs for granted just as most Germans did at that time. His thrust aimed at politics, not religion. But through his political and religious reasoning he established in 1933, a German Reich Christian Church, uniting the Protestant churches to instill faith in a national German Christianity.
Future generations should remember that Adolph Hitler could not have come into power without the support of the Protestant and Catholic churches and the German Christian populace.
Hitler paid Christianity a lot of lip service in Mein Kampf, and he claimed to be a Christian, but Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann, also declared that "National Socialism [Nazism] and Christianity are irreconcilable" and Hitler didn't squawk about it. Similarly, Hermann Rauschning, a Hitler associate, said, "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." In addition, Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools. Randy Alley, one of the best WWII history sources, noted that the SS were supposedly forbidden to believe in God…
Hitler was a neo-pagan terrorist whose conscience was not informed by Christianity, but by pseudo-scientific racist philosophies. Hitler hated the Catholic Church, made plans to kill the Pope, authorized the murder of thousands of priests and nuns, and did everything he could to suppress the influence of the Church. In 1933, Hitler said, 'It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood.' The Catholic League also quoted Hitler, in a 4/23/99 Op-Ed ad in the New York Times, as saying, "Antiquity was better than modern times, because it didn't know Christianity and syphilis.
As Hitler grew in power, he made other anti-Christian statements. For example, he was quoted in Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, by Allan Bullock, as saying: "I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on."
Errr.....I already cited that website in one of my post, so as to give both points of view.
And maybe if you take a closer look at Eugenics article, Evangelicals in the US had a equal good hand in the promotion of "pseudo-scientific racist philosophies" aka Eugenics. Yes, that's right, Eugenics was US export to the Nazis'
The whole point of my last post was to show that siting websites is an exercise in futility as I can easily find a hundred websites in my favor for each one that you find to the contrary. The whole exercise is meaningless. Give me time and a search engine and I can find a Eugenics article that states that Evangelicals had no hand whatsoever in the promotion of "pseudo-scientific racist philosophies" aka Eugenics. You're a prime example of one of the dangers of the internet. You have a little bit of knowledge, an axe to grind, and a keyboard and you can find anything you want on the web. I'm certain that I could prove to you that blacks are inferior to whites because they lack the brain capacity of caucasians. It must be true because it's stated so matter-of-factly on the Aryan Brotherhood website. They couldn't say it if it wasn't true, right? There is, in fact, little difference between you and groups like the Aryan Brotherhood. Only you twist the facts and direct your bigotry toward a particular faith rather than a particular race.
"You're a prime example of one of the dangers of the internet"
Rather than engaging in ad hominums, it would be more mature of you counter the argument by presenting historical evidence which showed that evangelicals in the 1850-1940
1)Opposed Eugenics as strongly as they did with Theory of Evolution 2)Were pro-Jewish to the same level as they are found today, ie that the overwhelming majority of Evangelical clergy opposed Christian anti-semitism 3)Promoted Inter-racial marriage, and were strongely opposed to racial Segregratation
You can cite as many apologetic websites as you want.
"I'm certain that I could prove to you that blacks are inferior to whites because they lack the brain capacity of caucasians. It must be true because it's stated so matter-of-factly on the Aryan Brotherhood website."
Here comes the "oh don't confuse me with facts" arguement.
However in this case it is a Evangelical("blacks") not the skeptics("Aryan Brotherhood") who are saying that Eugenics were supported by Evangelicals.
Perhaps you should sort it with your spiritual brother and sisters to remove such "bigotry" from their articles.
"Only you twist the facts and direct your bigotry toward a particular faith rather than a particular race. "
Oh I forgot, only Christians have the divine mandate to skeptically examine other people beliefs, yet if someone just questions their rosy worldview, s/he suddenly becomes a Anti-Christ.
What pious hypocrasy.
You obviously don't want to engage in mature discussion, and can only engage in rhetorics. Such people are only interested in worshiping their "infallible" Worldview, not learn about the truth.
I'm not interested in answering for what you say evangelicals opposed or supported over 150 years ago. I want to be judged based upon who I am, not on what other people may or may not have believed in the 19th century.
“You can cite as many apologetic websites as you want.”
I suppose only you should be allowed to quote obscure websites to support your ridiculous points.
"Here comes the 'oh don't confuse me with facts' arguement."
But I found them on the internet, so that makes them factual, right?
I don't recall invoking some divine mandate to skeptically examine other peoples beliefs. I came to this website to state an opinion about a children's film and got blind-sided by someone who evidently doesn't think Christian films belong in secular movie theaters.
"You obviously don't want to engage in mature discussion, yada, yada, yada..."
Anytime, but discussing your revisionist view of history while you blame Christians for every evil since the black plague on a message board for a children's film seems a little inappropriate to me.
First of all, perhaps next time before you start fuming and start to slander people or engage in foul language, it might be good idea to take advise from some of the good teachings from your bible, namely, Colossians 3:8. Please read it, because it seems you don't care much about that part of your book.
"I'm not interested in answering for what you say evangelicals opposed or supported over 150 years ago. I want to be judged based upon who I am, not on what other people may or may not have believed in the 19th century. "
If you don't care, then why the heck are you absolving them of their actions? And when did I ever judge you based on their actions?
"I don't recall invoking some divine mandate to skeptically examine other peoples beliefs." Well, Christians do it all the time. Look at the plethora of Christian websites and the million of books, which are out there to debunk other religions and worldview.
"I came to this website to state an opinion about a children's film and got blind-sided by someone who evidently doesn't think Christian films belong in secular movie theaters. "
I don't give a damn, if Christians, or Scientologists want to put their religious films in the secular cinema. All I want to see is a good movie, which has a good story and is visually appealing.
FYI, Prince of Egypt is one of my all time favorite movie.
"quote obscure websites to support your ridiculous points. But I found them on the internet, so that makes them factual, right?"
It is not the source that matters but the actual veracity of the content. There are 100 of books out there which claim that Aliens landed on earth. Just because they are in the book format rather than on the internet doesn't make them true
The Eugenics article can also be found on "Ethics and Medicine" website. They have been publishing for the past 23 years.
"but discussing your revisionist view of history while you blame Christians for every evil since the black plague on a message board for a children's film seems a little inappropriate to me."
Whatever man, I never blamed Christians for every problem in the world, since the greatest reformers in the world have come from Christianity. In my personal life, some of the my best friends have been fundamentalist Christians.
But I am not going to overlook the actions the Christians of the past, who contributed to to the worst atrocities in human history. At the end of the day they were sick humans, who found their justification from their religion. All I want to know what exactly were those justifications. After all there is a favorite quote "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".
If you are content with your current state of knowledge, I wish you all the best
"If you don't care, then why the heck are you absolving them of their actions?"
I didn't absolve Hitler of his actions, for example. I simply stated that he wasn't a Christian. How do I know that? Because he's responsible for the senseless deaths of nearly 40 million people. If you're a true Christian you know that genocide is pretty much a romper room no-no. In short, you should judge Christianity based upon Christ's teachings, not on the actions of Christians-in-name-only or the failings of imperfect Christians (which all Christian's are).
"Well, Christians do it all the time. Look at the plethora of Christian websites and the millions of books, which are out there to debunk other religions and worldview."
You are greatly exaggerating. There is a small niche market of such material, but certainly not millions of resources out there to "debunk other religions" as you put it. And please don't list a bunch of obscure fringe websites in a lame attempt to prove your point. As I indicated before, you can find any point of view under the sun on the internet and it doesn't make your statement any truer. And generally speaking those legitimate resources that are there don't come from the point of view of debunking anything, but present evidence to support Christianity. And tell me, what widely practiced religion doesn't think that it's the true religion? Most believe that theirs IS the true religion, are very happy in it, and wish to share that happiness with others. Is that a crime? In fact, sharing Christianity is a command given to Christian's by Christ in Matthew 28:19-20 (notice I said "sharing" not "forcing").
It's interesting that you should spend all this time attacking Christianity while giving radical Muslims a free pass to spout their convert-or-die philosophy. I expect that, if I looked, I wouldn't see you on any Muslim movie websites talking about how horrible their religion is. Instead you spend you time here on the board of a movie that you've certainly not seen attacking a film you don't want others to see. But that's typical of Christian-haters. Five abortion doctors have been killed by supposed "Christians" since 1973 and all Christians are painted with a broad brush and labeled intolerant. But radical Muslims can kill 3000 Americans in the name of Allah and all I hear on TV from everyone in the country from President Bush on down is how Islam is in fact such a peaceful religion. There was no mass retaliation by Christian's against Muslims after 9/11. The reverse certainly wouldn't be true had Christians attacked a Muslim country in such a way. Please don't list a bunch of obscure fringe websites showing that someone actually burned down a mosque after 9/11. As I indicated before, you can find any point of view under the sun on the internet and it doesn't make your statement any truer.
"In my personal life, some of the my best friends have been fundamentalist Christians."
Isn't that what racists say to prove that they're not racist? "I'm not racist. Why, some of my best friends are black people." A person can't spend days and days trashing black folks then come in a say I'm not racist because I have black friends. Your words make you racist regardless of who your friends are.
"May you find peace in your religion."
I have the peace that passes all understanding--Philippians 4:7
"I didn't absolve Hitler of his actions, for example. I simply stated that he wasn't a Christian"
When the heck did I say he was one? He was neither a humanist or a Christian. You are not even listening are you? I suggest you read up on the straw man and ad hominum fallacy, since you committed them a number of time in your posts towards me and others.
I was talking about evangelicals and the general Christians attitude before the pre-WW2 era. You seem to disagree with me on that, but you have yet provide any substantial evidence that the majority of the Christiandom was pro-Jewish or promoted inter-race relations in that time period like they do today.
"generally speaking those legitimate resources that are there don't come from the point of view of debunking anything, but present evidence to support Christianity."
Most of them out there show other religion as man-made, and perceive their as the true "divine" one. I just consider Christianity as another man-made religion. that's all. Is that a crime? Apparently according to you it is.
"In fact, sharing Christianity is a command given to Christian's by Christ in Matthew 28:19-20" Well, you certainly are not going to win any believers for your lord, if you are going to have that sort of a bulldozing attitude. I have tried to be respectful to you all the time, despite your slandering remarks.
"As I indicated before, you can find any point of view under the sun on the internet and it doesn't make your statement any truer"
Oh really, then don't you think the same argument can said against your claims?
" Instead you spend you time here on the board of a movie that you've certainly not seen attacking a film you don't want others to see."
I have seen this movie, and others are most welcome to see it. Just don't expect it to be the best Christian movie of all time, since they are far better Christian movies.
"But radical Muslims can kill 3000 Americans in the name of Allah and all I hear on TV from everyon e in the country from President Bush on down is how Islam is in fact such a peaceful religion"
If you have a problem with the American media about they portray Islam, you should talk to them.
I never claimed that Islam is a religion of peace, nor do I believe in that claim.
" all Christians are painted with a broad brush and labeled intolerant" Here you go again with another strawman arguement. I never stated that all Christians are intolerant.
"Isn't that what racists say to prove that they're not racist? "
Here comes another one.
For the last time I don't hate all Christians nor am I anti-christian anymore than I am anti-muslim. Why can't you comprehend this simple fact?
Last time I checked, just because someone is skeptical of a religion doesn't make him a 'anti". Are you anti-semitic or a anti-muslim just because you don't believe in their claims?
"I have the peace that passes all understanding" Good for you. And this is my last post to you, since it is very clear from your attitude that you are only interested in slandering people and building stupid straw man arguments, just because s/he doesn't believe in your world view.
"I have tried to be respectful to you all the time, despite your slandering remarks."
Slander by its very definition is something that is malicious, false, and defamatory. I made no remarks with regard to you that I didn't honestly believe to be true. Is it malicious, false, or defamatory to call a Klansman a racist? No on all counts.
"Oh really, then don't you think the same argument can said against your claims?"
No. You're Mr. Internet Website Poster, not I.
"I have seen this movie, and others are most welcome to see it. Just don't expect it to be the best movie of all time, since they are far better Christian movies."
Yeah, well your first four slams on this thread were posted before this movie was even released so that pretty much tells me that you came here with an agenda.
"I never claimed that Islam is a religion of peace, nor do I believe in that claim."
Yes, well my whole point was that, even though you claim to believe that about Islam, a religion that has many violent adherants TODAY, you give it a free pass. Yet you come to the message board of a Judeo/Christian cartoon and eviscerate it instead (to protect our children from its harmful message no doubt).
"I never stated that all Christians are intolerant. You should stop building up straw man arguments."
You spent days trying to convince me that Hitler was a Christian responsible for genocide and that Christians in centuries past were eugenics proponents and that Christians were reponsible for the worst transgressions in human history. That paints a pretty intolerant picture in my opinion.
"Are you anti-semitic or a anti-muslim just because you don't believe in their claims?"
No, but I don't go to a Jewish message board or a Muslim message board, blame them for all the ills in human history, then claim to love Jews and Muslims in the next breath.
Sorry I'm not playing the part of the good little Christian like a lamb going to slaughter.
I made no remarks with regard to you that I didn't honestly believe to be true"
This coming from a person, who thinks that anyone who doesn't like this movie, has to be anti-christian. Just because you say I am racist or bigot, doesn't make me one.
"No. You're Mr. Internet Website Poster, not I. "
Ok Mr Ad-Hominum/Strawman
"You spent days trying to convince me that Hitler was a Christian "
I repeatedly stated that it was debatable that he was Christian, and that he used his christian badge to incite the prevalent Christian anti-semitic attitude of that time. Big difference!!!!!!
"that Christians in centuries past were eugenics proponents"
Another strawman. This is what I quoted from the Eugenics article
"I hoped that evangelicals in the period 1900-1940 could prove helpful in current debates in bioethics. or the most part I was disappointed.. ... But on the whole the evangelical mainstream in the decades following the turn of the century appeared apathetic, acquiescent, or at times downright supportive of the eugenics movement."
"Yes, well my whole point was that, even though you claim to believe that about Islam,....you give it a free pass"
What part of "nor do I believe that claim ie Islam is a religion of Peace" don't you understand?
"Yeah, well your first four slams on this thread were posted before this movie was even released so that pretty much tells me that you came here with an agenda."
Those comments about the movie were based on the trailer.
"Yet you come to the message board of a Judeo/Christian cartoon and eviscerate it instead"
Better to watch "Prince of Egypt" or the original "Ten Commandments" than watch this one. That's all. It's a poorly made movie, in my opinion, and the fact it bombed in the box office, only confirms my view about it. If you disagree with that, than that's fine.
"that Christians in centuries past were eugenics proponents "
Did I say that all Christians were Eugenics propenents? I said a good number of them were. Don't believe me, why don't read up some history books? Once again, Another strawman arguement.
"that Christians were reponsible for the worst transgressions in human history."
maybe you forgot to read this
" I never blamed Christians for every problem in the world, since the greatest reformers in the world have come from Christianity"
"Thankfully, today Christians don't have the disowned anti-semitic attitude of their spiritual ancestors and it is good thing that many of them have pro Jewish attitude......"
"then claim to love Jews and Muslims in the next breath." One can certainly think a personal beliefs are mistaken and still be friends with him. These are not mutually exclusive position.
"Sorry I'm not playing the part of the good little Christian like a lamb going to slaughter."
well you certainly play well the part of the self-righteous arrogant Christian
Sorry, but it sounds exactly like a certain type of Christian to me, at least the kind you see all too often in positions of power throughout history, including a lot of politicians in Washington today. They're the forked tongued adders that talk out of both sides of their mouths at the same time. They profess being a Christian, then act in ways that are anything but Christlike. Either they fancy themselves as good Christians while being very good at compartmentalizing their supposed faith vs their actions or they are just con artists who know how to manipulate the faithful in order to stay in power. Hitler, while more extreme and probably psychotic as well, certainly fits the profile of one of these. Even the website you cite allows that Hitler "claimed to be a Christian." If you want to argue that he may not have been authentic, I would not take issue with that.
I presume you are talking to me. If you note, from my posts, I never said that Hitler was a "true" Christian.
Like you said, Hitler used his Christian badge to manipulate the prevalent anti-semitic Christian attitude of that time. There is enough historical evidence to show that the general protestant and Catholic clergy supported the anti-semitic program of the Nazi's. But my point was that, this Christian anti-semitism did not happen overnight. Christiandom as a whole up till that time period had always hated the Jews, in the sense that they were considered a lost people who were rejected by the Christian God. This is a established historical Christian fact, just like the fact during one time in History, the majority of Christians were Catholics, or that Christian were involved in Witch Hunting.
I never denied that Eugenics were promoted by a lot of Non-Christians, however all I pointed out that the Eugenics movement was also supported heavily by Christians in that time, and like the article by that Evangelical pointed, Evangelicals on a whole did not oppose it as strongly as they did the teaching of the theory of Evolution. I have not come yet across information about law suits being made by Evangelicals to repeal segegration and immigration policy by the United States, which was based on Eugenics.
Thankfully, today Christians don't have the disowned anti-semitic attitude of their spiritual ancestors and it is good thing that many of them have pro Jewish attitude.
My post will probably be ignored since I am not jumping on the religion/anti-religion rant and talk about the movie. But why did they even need to make this? The animation looked horrible. And it wasn't that long ago that "Prince of Egypt" came out which looked to be a much better film. It wasn't CGI but the animation looked much better. As did the writing and voice acting. I just don't think this film was needed.