#1 for me is bringing a dead guy to show Cersei. This is beyond stupid. Tyrion knew Cersei - he would know that Cersei would say that she would help, but she wouldn't - she wanted the dead to weaken Danys forces.
I wanted to yell at my TV - "how stupid are you people?" lol
Just a ridiculous plotline.
Yeah that was pretty bad, but there were so many from Season 8 that can challenge that, here are some in no particular order:
- the whole last dragon pit council scene in which Bran is made King was completely out of nowhere. Why was Tyrion even there, hell why were any of them there in the first place.
-The battle plans of the long night with having everyone outside the walls.
-Scorpion ballistics having super powered accuracy and then 0% the next episode
-Dany targeting and burning innocents (I actually shut my TV off at that point first time I didnt' finish an episode)
-Arya and the white horse ride off only to be back next episode
-Bran seemingly knowing this would all happen like it was planned
-Jon and the show's handling his lineage (she ma queen, I dun't wan it)
-Varys' handling of Jon's lineage, which was basically suicide by proxy.
-Grey Worm and the dothraki not killing Jon and Tyrion right after Dany's death. Jon should have been forced to battle them or be killed. Otherwise it make no sense.
Also an dishonorable mention from season 7. The death of littlefinger. There are so many more too but these were just some of the big one's i could think of
Dany forgetting about the Iron Fleet aka the Forgotten Fleet - and they suddenly have pinpoint accuracy - but of course not for the one Dany was on.
shareah yes of course, I forgot to mention that one with the ballistics on the ships. "While Dany kind of forgot about Euron's forces and the iron fleet, they certainly haven't forgot about her". This right here is such a slap in the face explanation of this. Anyone defending this show after hearing D & D give this explanation has to have their heads so far buried in the sand it is coming out their ass.
shareYeah Dany killing innocent women and children, after 7 seasons of seeing her save women and children. That might be the worst part of this show - they completely ignored who she was. just pathetic
shareYes, It is not so much that she did it. Because even good people with good intentions can become megalomaniacs especially if they start to believe themselves a god or goddess. The problem with Dany transition to this state of homicidal mania is... well it was nonexistent. There was no transition, it was a flip of a switch that had us all going "what the hell is this crap?"
shareI agree - just so poorly written - if she wants to go mad on Cersei for what she did to Missandei - fine - im sure the fans would have enjoyed that.
But to go after children and to ignore Cersei??? - horrible, clueless writing
It would have been slightly more believable if she'd torched the Red Keep first, and kept going.
But not a lot more, not when she was sweetly saving the world two episodes earlier. Because as noted, the real problem was that there was no transition from her baseline ruthlessness to megalomania.
>It would have been slightly more believable if she'd torched the Red Keep first, and kept going.
That is actually a good point, sort of like she gets caught up in the blood lust of it and just starts burning it all AFTER the red keep and Cersei are dead. Not much better but at least it would be a more believable excuse.
But for this to work she would have to show remorse after, for the sack of what the ending they had planned she could not be remorseful.
>Because as noted, the real problem was that there was no transition from her baseline ruthlessness to megalomania.
Exactly. There was simply no transition. I just said this in another post but what they did by removing the transition into her becoming a monster was they throw away development for the sake of a cheap unearned twist ending.
Yeah, a Mad or Megolamaniacal Danerys could have been great drama... if they'd just taken the time to make it work!
But the thing is, she'd always been ruthless, but never used violence except as means to an end... and burning the far side of the city from her real target made absolutely no sense from a military or political standpoint. It was pointless to torch civilians while her real target stood there twiddling her thumbs and facing no direct threats. Having the two warring queens lock eyes before the Red Keep was fried would have made more sense, and it would have been somewhat better drama. That alone wouldn't have saved the hash they made of Season 8, but it would have been a small improvement.
>Yeah, a Mad or Megolamaniacal Danerys could have been great drama... if they'd just taken the time to make it work!
Yup but the thing is to make that work it would have to have begun getting set up more ever since the beginning. basically you have to forget season 2 threw 6 Dany to excpet Season 7 and 8 Dany. There needed to be far more ruthlessness and much less remorse and restraint as time went on. But there wasn't
>That alone wouldn't have saved the hash they made of Season 8, but it would have been a small improvement.
True while we are discussing Dany here, the real thing that ruined the show was the long night and end of the Night King; everything after that was a hot mess. I knew there was going to be trouble after how slow and uneventful the first 2 episodes were. while good episodes they were very uneventful considering Season 8 only had 6 episodes to finish. This left only 4 to finish the series; but even I was surprised by the sharp nose dive in quality.
Yeah, the first two episodes were like a continuation of S7, disappointing, but not without rewards.
I dont think I've ever seen such a sharp decline in the quality of a TV show, as they had in the last 4 episodes.
In all Honesty, Episodes 1 and 2 of season 8 should have been rolled into an episode 8 of the 7th season.
Yeah the quality was so bad that Game of Thrones is now going to be remembered as just another great show with a crap final ending that ruined the series (Lost, Dexter, Sherlock, etc); but Game of thrones is even worse than those because it is one complete narrative; there is no season were you can be 'okay' with ending it there. For me, I tell people they are perfectly fine ending Dexter after season 4 or season 7; in fact any season after 4 could have been a good place to end; just not season 8. For Game of Thrones you can't really do that. It is not like you can just stop after season 4 and be okay.
I'm kind of hoping that GoT will be remembered for its heights and not its depths... but the depths are so spectacularly deep that it's unlikely.
shareIt is going to be nearly impossible to think of the show without thinking of the terrible ending. Because of the ending the show now has zero re-watch value. Not only that, but I like many have no interest in this IP anymore; I'll read the books just to see the difference but I am not going to watch any new series, games, books (outside the primary 7 if they are ever finished).
Because of this outcome there is almost no way to think back fondly on the great heights the show reached without immediately getting dragged down by the terrible way it ended.
I wonder if HBO sold the syndication rights before Season 8, or was waiting until the big finale to make the sale?
Because the show's syndication value has definitely plummeted. The end offers no payoff for most of the interesting stuff that was built up.
Think of movies or TV that you've seen multiple times - "Back to the Future" for example - ive probably seen it 7 or 8 times - why? - Good story, interesting characters, action, and a happy ending - you need all of these elements to have rewatchability.
We had a great story, interesting characters, action, and an awful ending.
I have no interest in seeing it again.
While I agree on "Good story, interesting characters", I don’t think you need a *happy* ending. You need a *good* ending of course, but sometimes sad or even shocking endings can be good.
shareyeah, happy ending is not necessary - as in "Gladiator" - but you need at least a satisfying ending.
shareYes, an ending does not need to be "happy" for it to be satisfying. In fact sometimes 'unhappy' endings are more satisfying than happy endings. The end of Game of Thrones was neither happy or satisfying.
shareexactly - and I doubt GOT fans will want to watch it again.
shareI'm rewatching it now. I didn't like episode 4 (too dark) the first time, but I 'm enjoying it much more now. I missed a lot during the first viewing.
I also plan to read the books then rewatch the entire series.
The last two seasons had multiple problems, but I still enjoyed the overall story and characters.
I admire your tolerance. I could barely get through a single viewing after episode 3, and it only got worse from there.
shareI'm able to look pass the TV show which I admit did have problems. I understand what GRRM was trying to do and consider him a genius. I'm confident that the books will be great and I can't wait until he writes the last two.
shareI can in some cases look past the bad when it is not something so so badly ruins the entirety of the experience. For example the show Dexter. Though I thought the last season was arguably as bad as the last season of Game of Thrones, it did not impact the whole story. In fact I can completely be satisfied re watching only up to the 4 season or even as far as the 7th season and then walk away from it.
Game of Thrones was different, it was a whole narrative structure that required a finally. There is no single season where you can say, that is a good place to end because it is still incomplete. And because so much of the whole depended on how it was finished, it is difficult to look back on the good without the bad ending drowning it out.
I watch Titanic almost every time it airs. There's a few other sad movies I like too. I thought GOT's ending was happy, but in a bittersweet way.
shareWhich part was happy? Dany burning all those people? Jon killing Dany? Greyworm killing everyone?
A silly council that named Bran King?
I don't find any happiness there.
Bronn asked Jamie how he wanted to die. Jamie replied in his lovers' arms which is what happened.
The Hound wanted to kill his brother which he did.
Jon wanted to live with the Free Folk which he did.
Arya wanted to see what was east of Essos which is where she went.
Greyworm will fulfill Missendei's wish of protecting her people against the slavers.
The North gained independence and Sansa became their queen.
Tragic deaths of King Landing's citizens lead to a better form of government, an elective monarchy aka: the wheel of tyranny was broken.
Brienne was knighted. The Freefolks live free and in peace with the North. The Night King & whytes were destroyed. Melisandre could finally die since her purpose was fulfilled. Gendry gained a title and land. Davos is alive.
Bran's not stuck on that stupid tree. Tyrion calls the shots and nobody is picking on him anymore. Bronn gained land, wealth, title and prestige. Sam's going to be a dad! Robin overcame his weird upbringing and is a chick magnet. The Dorian prince doesn't have to deal with those harpies (sand snakes & psycho mom) like his predecessor did.
Even Cersei didn't die scared and alone. Her true love was there for her. (She didn't deserve such a happy end though)
Some endings were purely happy like Bronn while others were bittersweet like Jamie and Jon.
>Bronn asked Jamie how he wanted to die. Jamie replied in his lovers' arms which is what happened.
The whole point of Jaime's arch was to overcome his sister's hold on him and realize she did not love him. them dying together basically crying might have been semi-happy for the characters as presented in the show but it was totally unsatisfying to the audience
>The Hound wanted to kill his brother which he did.
It seemed to me the hounds arch in the show at least was him finding a way to let go of that and find a new meaning. In the last 2 episodes that is thrown away for cheap fan service of cleaganbowl.
>Jon wanted to live with the Free Folk which he did.
Prior to the 8th season when did Jon ever seem to want to join the free folk? I would agree this would be a happy ending for him if he chose it, the fact that it was forced on him is not a happy ending nor satisfying.
>Arya wanted to see what was east of Essos
There was one throw away line about this in season 6 and nothing more. She was a character obsessed with death her entire arch and to end it with her becoming basically Columbus was about the most unsatisfying of all the arch.
>Greyworm will fulfill Missendei's wish
Maybe I missed something by how empty these characters were but I do not remember them having too many wishes other than following Dany and having a rather useless (in terms of story) attraction to each other.
>he North gained independence and Sansa became their queen
They gained independence from Bran Stark the rightful heir of North; this doesn't even make sense. They would have recognized Bran as their ruler more than they did Sansa, when they ruler is made King they allow Sansa to decide independence for them? Highly suspicious.
...
I disagree. Jamie and Cersei always loved each other. They had a few lover quarrels though.
Hound was never letting go of his hate. Where did you see that? He even mentioned last season that he was coming for him.
Jon never wanted to stay in the North because he felt he was an outsider who was never accepted. That was why he went to the Wall in the first place. He blended in well with the freefolk: girlfriend, leaders admired him, created an alliance with them.
Bran chose Jon's "punishment" of going to the Wall knowing that the Freefolk were waiting for him.
There are no throw away lines. Each scene and line means something. Arya was obsessed with revenge - not death. The Hound (her father figure) was able to talk sense into her.
GReyworm and Missendai were alone and she said they should both leave to her homeland instead of staying in the North where people didn't like them. That was their plan after Dany claimed the throne.
I agree about the independence. Very poorly executed and rushed. The Dorian prince and Yara exchanged looks I think.
>Jamie and Cersei always loved each other. They had a few lover quarrels though.
One of the problems of being a book reader first is I always compare it to the show. In the books they quite clearly do not love each other by the end of the 5th book. It is also pretty obvious that Cersei is not capable of love in the first place.
>Hound was never letting go of his hate. Where did you see that? He even mentioned last season that he was coming for him.
Beginning in the 6th season with his return with sept people and then with the Brotherhood without Banners. His regret at the seeing the dead father and daughter that he had robbed from. There was a whole "you can do more good than the harm you caused" thing going on. The line at the end of episode 7 was a hype building line, nothing more. The hounds regression to his season 1 state of just wanting to kill his brother was almost as bad as Jaime's regression.
>Jon never wanted to stay in the North because he felt he was an outsider who was never accepted.
That is directly contrary to what he says. He says specifically he has never wanted anything more than to be a real Stark and be accepted by his people and family as such. And it is fine if he decided to go with them of his own accord, that would be satisfying. The fact it was chosen for him removed the satisfaction.
>Bran chose Jon's "punishment" of going to the Wall knowing that the Freefolk were waiting for him.
Why is there even still a wall? Tyrion's explanation is garbage. After the Unsullied left what was the point of honoring it? who were the unsullied at this point anyway. Without Dany they really are foreign occupiers. Why would the people of westeros allow them anything. They weren't that strong of a force in the first place, they could barely handle Mereen, but then they seemed to have unlimited re-spawn abilities.
...
>There are no throw away lines
Of course there are, unless you think the scene when one guy fingered the butthole of the other guy was deeply meaningful.
>Each scene and line means something
I counter this with the presence of Ed Shereen in Season 7.
>Arya was obsessed with revenge - not death.
Perhaps that is a difference in interpretation. It always seemed to me that she was more obsessed with death since even before her desire for revenge, in Season 1 when Sario told her about "One God".
>The Hound (her father figure) was able to talk sense into her.
What makes you think The Hound was her father figure? I would have thought her real father or even Jaqen would have been more father figures to her than the Hound. Hound and Arya had more like a mutual respect thing going, no so much a father daughter dynamic.
>GReyworm and Missendai were alone and she said they should both leave to her homeland instead of staying in the North where people didn't like them. That was their plan after Dany claimed the throne.
Odd because in her homeland Greyworm would die as a result of the butterfly disease. Also this is assuming they would be willing to part with Dany, with how obsessively they served her I doubt they would.
>I agree about the independence. Very poorly executed and rushed. The Dorian prince and Yara exchanged looks I think.
Everything in the ending could have worked, all the points you brought up could have worked better; if it was not rushed. Well maybe not Bran becoming king, this is counter to what was set up in the prior 3 season.
Obviously you read the books and watched the show. I'm just talking specifically about the show since the books are a little different and the last two novels haven't been written yet.
"the scene when one guy fingered the butthole of the other guy was deeply meaningful."
I remember several gay scenes so I'm not sure which one you're referring to. Who was in it and what was the context?
"I counter this with the presence of Ed Shereen in Season 7."
All scenes and lines are supposed to move the story forward.
There is plenty happening in that scene. It let's us know that Arya has returned to Westeros. Things have changed in Westeros: King's Landing is poor, Red Keep destroyed, and trouble with the Freys. The latter mention changes Arya's direction from Cersei to the Freys. Soldiers expressing their longing for home after their adventures which is a writer's trick to use other characters to let us know how Arya feels. Comments about papas and daughters - Arya must have been thinking about her dead father. The last line let's us know what Arya's goal is.
BTW, I never heard of that singer until people mentioned him after the airing so he wasn't relevant to me. Still isn't.
"in Season 1 when Sario told her about "One God". "
Arya's dance teacher is a Faceless Man like Jaqen. Arya wasn't interested in becoming an assassin like the Faceless Men. She wanted revenge (death) on those who harmed her family. Big difference!
Jaqen was her teacher. The Hound protected her. They grew on each other. The Hound gave fatherly advice at the end when he tried to get Arya to give up the vengeance quest.
I don't think they mentioned the butterfly disease in the TV show therefore it doesn't exist. Most people aren't going to read the books.
Bran's story was a little underdeveloped to me. I still don't understand the 3-eyed raven thing.
What would've needed to be done by the writers to make Bran as King work?
>I remember several gay scenes so I'm not sure which one you're referring to. Who was in it and what was the context?
This was not a gay scene this was to show that the characters were a bunch of unlikeable people right before the hound killed them. Since the hound was after them for killing the innocents at the sept, these scene with one sticking his finger up the other ass was not necessary and had no meaning. Your claim was "there was no throw away lines". These scene proves that is not the case.
>There is plenty happening in that scene...
All of what you described was already known. The scene with Ed Shereen added nothing, it was done specifically only to give the singer a cameo. Altogether meaningless.
> I never heard of that singer until people mentioned him after the airing so he wasn't relevant to me. Still isn't.
I also was unaware of the singer, but when I watched the scene it felt totally out of place. I thought Arya was going to get attached by them but when the scene ended I thought; what the hell was the point of that? We already knew she was going after Cersei, we already knew she killed the Freys, we already knew about what was going on in King's Landing. There was not one bit of new information and it was a waste of screen time. After the episode I found out the reason behind the scene existing.
>Arya's dance teacher is a Faceless Man like Jaqen.
That is never revealed. It is a fan theory.
>Arya wasn't interested in becoming an assassin like the Faceless Men. She wanted revenge (death) on those who harmed her family.
She was torn between the 2 things, she definetely was obsessed with revenge but she also enjoyed the killing too much suggesting an interest with death itself. Hence her attempts to join the faceless men. In the end revenge and maintaining her identity won.
>The Hound gave fatherly advice
never saw the hound as a father figure, more like a mentor at best.
The books are going to be better. Even GRRM said that D&D did fan service. I don't mind since Lady Lyanna was only supposed to do one scene but ended up being brought back because of her popularity. She was one of my favorite characters.
I don't remember that gay scene at all so I won't comment on it.
Listen to Syrio's words closely. He's quoting words from the God of Death religion. He's a Faceless man.
https://youtu.be/myZ29u1gpWQ?t=84
I believe ARya was happy that she had her revenge in the same way that Sansa smiled when she killed Ramsey. Once Arya stops seeking vengeance, she stops killing. she never kills just to kill.
The Hound wasn't a mentor either because he didn't teach her anything. He was a guardian or protector. Both The Hound and Arya were the same in that they were obsessed with vengeance. In the end, vengeance consumed the Hound and ARya was able to walk away from it and begin a new life.
Many years since I watched the earlier seasons. It should be interesting to rewatch and catch things that I missed the first time. I only realized what Syrio was after viewing the youtube video.
>Even GRRM said that D&D did fan service.
In some cases the fan service I did not mind. They gave Jon many more heroic epic moments that were not in the books and I think those were good additions.
>I don't remember that gay scene at all so I won't comment on it.
As I said it was not really a gay scene, it was designed to make the characters look like totally douche bags. Which is unnecessary filler crap because they already killed innocent people, it was pointless.
>He's quoting words from the God of Death religion. He's a Faceless man.
One does not have to be a member of religion to be able to quote it. He was from Bravos he does not need to be a faceless man to be familiar with the religion that was predominant in his culture. It is an absolutely assumption to think that he was a faceless man.
>The Hound wasn't a mentor either because he didn't teach her anything.
The Hound to Arya: "You're friend is dead and Myran Trant is alive, because Myrn Trant had armor and big fucking sword". The hound taught Arya all kinds of things, he was a constant mentor; maybe not intentionally but he was.
>I only realized what Syrio was after viewing the youtube video.
The book and the show offer no certainty that Syrio was a faceless man. the youtube video you watched did not confirm it, it was nothing more than a fan's interpretation of the character. The book writer and the show runners never confirmed either way. means it is all speculation. I doubt Syrio was a faceless man but I cannot say for certain one way or the other because the lack of sufficient evidence.
"...He was from Bravos he does not need to be a faceless man..."
That makes no sense storywise. He wasn't just saying those words. He was training Arya to fight and he himself was an excellent and trained fighter. His lessons had a philosophy attached to them like the Faceless Man's.
THe fan theory about Syrio centers on if he lived and was Jaquen - not if he was a Faceless Man.
Mentor: an experienced and trusted adviser.
Nah! Not The Hound. His main role was protecting her until he could claim his reward from her family.
Littlefinger became Sansa's mentor and guardian though. But, he was trying to manipulate her at the same time.
>He was training Arya to fight and he himself was an excellent and trained fighter. His lessons had a philosophy attached to them like the Faceless Man's.
He was a trained "water dancer" and the "First sword of Bravos" That is not the same thing as a faceless man. In fact if he was a faceless man he would not have been the "First Sword of Bravos", which is a position similar to Commander of the King's Guard. So now that I remember that, it confirms he is not a faceless man. Syrio was not 'no one'.
>THe fan theory about Syrio centers on if he lived and was Jaquen - not if he was a Faceless Man.
you miss the point of the faceless men, there was no Jaqen H'gar. And there is no evidence that Syrio = Jagen, it is another evidence free fan theory and nothing more.
>Mentor: an experienced and trusted adviser.
Adviser: a person who gives advice in a particular field. The hound was experienced warrior and killer and gave advice to Arya. Again you proved my point for me by trying to be snide.
>His main role was protecting her until he could claim his reward from her family.
That was his main role sure but he also gave her advice all the time about life, killing, surviving, when her efforts would be wasted. I mean did you even watch season 3 and 4?
>an elective monarchy aka: the wheel of tyranny was broken.
Lead by an all seeing God King that seemed to conspire or allow all the horrors to take place to see himself made king. There is no indication that the 3 eyed raven would not just pass on the title and kingship to who they chose. and what is to stop the next elected official to do away with the election or to stack it in such a way that their children are always seen as the best choice. This is just the same level of tyranny with some illusion of nobility having a say; much like the magna carta.
anyway I could go on, but the point is; you are right some of these could be seen as happy or at least semi happy; but none of them were satisfying. No one got an ending that was a good conclusion to any of their arch's.
I'm talking about only the show. Cersei loves Jamie and their children which is ironic because it's her faulty they die.
"The line at the end of episode 7 was a hype building line, nothing more. "
Not really since he did it.
I'm not sure what you believe Hound's regression was. For me, Hound became a better person during the show. He protected Arya originally for the money but grew to care for her. He had some type of "religious" awakening with the Brotherhood which would explain his joining the fight against the Night King.
But,he always wanted to kill his brother. I don't think that's a bad thing since he grew in other ways and his brother was a villain.
Jon wanted to be a Stark and be accepted, but he wasn't which is why he went to the Wall where he found acceptance by the freefolk.
"Why is there even still a wall?"
Cold war is over. Why do we have nukes?
I think it would be insane to give up the wall. Why wouldn't the Free folk attack in the future under different leadership especially if their resources are low? Centuries old tradition isn't going away fast.
The Unsullied left with Greyworm. The Dorthraki appeared to have stayed.
I'm going to take Bran at his word when he said that he didn't want to be king. His role appears to be mainly observer. But, it appears all the gods interject a little like when the God of Light brought back Jon.
Unless we get a sequel, it's assumed they ruled happily ever after.
"No one got an ending that was a good conclusion to any of their arch's."
Bronn?
>I'm talking about only the show. Cersei loves Jamie and their children which is ironic because it's her faulty they die.
I still get no indication that Cersei loves Jaime; now that might be because I was spoiled by the books, so her actions in the show indicate the things I was already expecting. She does not come across as a person capable of love outside selfish reasons.
>Not really since he did it.
Touche, but it was forced none the less. And removed any depth to the hound's character in the process.
>Cold war is over. Why do we have nukes?
That is a terrible analogy. Cold war might be over but nuclear weapons still exist. In GoT the White Walkers no longer exist and the wildings are now allies.
>why wouldn't the Free folk attack in the future under different leadership especially if their resources are low?
Why the hell are they going back north of the wall with low resources when they were given land south of the wall? This is another thing that made no sense in the show. Wildings have been fighting to get south of the wall for hundreds of years because of the harsh conditions of the north. When they are allied with the north and given land and recognized they suddenly elect to go back?
>I'm going to take Bran at his word when he said that he didn't want to be king.
He seemed pretty satisfied to be king though, and like he was expecting it. Either we are forced to believe him without confirmation or we let our best guess lead us to a conclusion because it went unexplored.
>Unless we get a sequel, it's assumed they ruled happily ever after.
if that is the case then the finally betrayed the entire point of the series, that there are no happily ever afters.
>Bronn?
This was an asinine conclusion. Bronn stumbles his way all the way to being made arguably the most powerful man in the realm mostly by being in the right place at the right time and not dying.
Why would Cersei have sex with her brother and only want his children risking all their lives? She's in love with him. In the show she even says that she loves him. (He loves her more though.)
Allies can become enemies very quickly and vice versa. I would keep the wall. Better safe than sorry.
North of the wall is home for the Freefolk. But, natural disasters, etc happen and could hurt resources. Historically, that happens all the time which explains why people move to new lands. GRRM is basing his story on history.
Bran was expecting it since he knows the future, but that doesn't mean he wanted it. I don't once remember Bran lying.
Bran is at peace. He was calm when the Night king was going to kill him too. That's his nature now.
RE: Bronn. That happens in real life. You can work hard and achieve nothing. Then someone else does little or nothing and gains what you failed to either because of dumb luck or because of who they know. That is very realistic.
I believe GRRM said no sequel, but he can change his mind. We're free to imagine a future for the characters. For me, I prefer my bittersweet happily ever after.
>Why would Cersei have sex with her brother and only want his children risking all their lives?
Really? Ownership, possession, control, self obsession. There are plenty of people that will want sex and children from people they don't love. Or maybe they even think they love them but really only love themselves and the power they have over someone.
>In the show she even says that she loves him.
Right that is why she constantly cheats on him. Real love there.
>Allies can become enemies very quickly and vice versa. I would keep the wall. Better safe than sorry.
In that case should not every kingdom have walls around it? Why doesn't the north build a wall just north of the twins?
>North of the wall is home for the Freefolk
Then why the effort to get south of the wall for hundreds of years before the white walkers reappeared?
>Bran was expecting it since he knows the future, but that doesn't mean he wanted it.
then why not mention it to someone? Might be worth telling Jon if he tells his sisters it will lead to a chain reaction leading to the burning of kings landing and the death of Dany? The fact that he left it up to Jon without any warning is a pretty good indication he was expecting to be made king and made no effort to intervene on the horrors that would have to happen to make it happen.
>Bran is at peace.
He is not at peace, he is completely apathetic. Not sure if someone so apathetic can be benevolent.
>Bronn. That happens in real life.
Not really, competence matters more than hard work and 'getting lucky'. Bronn was a competent mercenary but the amount of plot conveniences that had to happen for him to stumble into being the most powerful lord in the realm was not realistic and hard to tolerate as a viewer.
"...from people they don't love."
RE: Cersei. We're talking about two siblings having sex. Not just people. Something major is going on for that to happen since there is a strong repulsion to have sex with your own sibling.
The story was that they loved each other. Jamie's dying words were something about only the two of them mattered.
Cersie loved her children but manipulated them. Look what she did to Tommen.
Cersei had sex with their first cousin to manipulate him. Ditto with Euron because she needed his ships.
The North has bannerman with their trained armies and weapons. Same thing. The North also has castles which are walled.
The Freefolk raided Northern people.
Why doesn't God stop mass killings? Bran and gods appear to have a passive role to allow humans the free will to guide their own destinies.
There are many competent mercenaries. Bronn knew a queen, a lord and the head of the King's Guard. He wheeled and dealed with powerful people.
>We're talking about two siblings having sex. Not just people. Something major is going on for that to happen
Yeah there are some real mental oddities going on there, none of which should be confused with love.
>Jamie's dying words were something about only the two of them mattered.
That is the complaint, they undid Jaime's arch and the fact that those are his dying words undermine the entirety of the character's progress.
>Cersie loved her children but manipulated them.
>Cersei had sex with their first cousin to manipulate him. Ditto with Euron
I am getting confused, are you proving my point that Cersie is not a person capable of love? Because these are arguments I would make to prove that point.
>The Freefolk raided Northern people.
Right, because they were north of the wall trying to get south and steal resources. That would not be necessary anymore.
>Why doesn't God stop mass killings?
Philosophical and Theological question that has been pondered on for thousands of years. Not getting into that on a GoT discussion board. We don't elect God as our king to rule us politically. We have not even elevated Priest-Kings for thousands of years.
>Bran and gods appear to have a passive role to allow humans the free will to guide their own destinies.
If he is so passive why select him as ruler. It makes sense for Tyrion to push for it because he knows that he can be the true ruler but why does everyone go along with it, except Bran's own family for christ sake.
>He wheeled and dealed with powerful people.
This often ended up with the person dying unless they really played it right. Bronn demonstrated no real deeper understanding, he is basically the Forrest Gump of Westeros.
> Then why the effort to get south of the wall for hundreds of years
Was it really mentioned in the TV show that they tried that? I don’t remember it but of course I might have missed that. I don’t remember that from the books either, but as I’ve said in other threads, I forgot a LOT from the books anyway…
>> Bran was expecting it since he knows the future (…)
> then why not mention it to someone?
I’m not sure that he really knows the future except for occasionally getting a vague glance (e.g. the dragon shadow over King’s Landing in his vision in an early episode).
>> Bronn. That happens in real life.
> Not really, competence matters more than
> hard work and 'getting lucky'.
So you’re saying that in real life, only really competent persons get to leading positions?
I seriously doubt that.
>Was it really mentioned in the TV show that they tried that?
It is mentioned in the show (Jon tells Ygritte about the 6 times it was tried in the last thousand years). There is more of an emphasis in the books though from what I remember (been about 10 years since I read most of them). The point is, the north is a harsh and scarce environment, why would people migrate back there when a better land was given to them south of the wall. It just does not add up.
>I’m not sure that he really knows the future except for occasionally getting a vague glance
The lack of clarity on what Bran knows adds to the problem. His lines of "Why do you think I came all this way" to Tyrion and "You were exactly where you were supposed to be" to Jon are indication that he was expecting this outcome. combined with the delivery of the lines from the actor it is coming across like this was fully known to him and he did nothing to warn others or change there dark fate because he would come out on top as a result of all the horrors and death. That means he is basically evil, or so apathetic he cannot possibly have good motivations.
>So you’re saying that in real life, only really competent persons get to leading positions?
There are exception to the rule but people that get promoted and are high achieving usually get to the top because of competence (which includes competence in navigating the "politics" of a business or department) If you are incompetent you might get away with some success for a time (especially if you are friends with the right people) but that does not last forever, eventually the lack of competence shows and that person is either relegated to menial tasks or moved to a different more useless position never to be promoted again.
Middle management is where the problems lie, people can get to middle management through luck and 'ass kissing' alone. Which is why if Bronn would have ended up as lord of the twins at most there would be no problem.
It is going to be nearly impossible to think of the show without thinking of the terrible ending. Because of the ending the show now has zero re-watch value. Not only that, but I like many have no interest in this IP anymore; I'll read the books just to see the difference but I am not going to watch any new series, games, books (outside the primary 7 if they are ever finished).
Because of this outcome there is almost no way to think back fondly on the great heights the show reached without immediately getting dragged down by the terrible way it ended.
----------------
Yeah I share this opinion too that the final season has hurt the rewatch value. That may change in time, I'm not sure, but one reason I think for this other than the overall poor writing, is the conclusion of the Night King and the way it became something pushed to one side so Dany could solve the Cersei problem.
You can't just build the White Walkers up from the first episode as this increasingly powerful and ominous threat facing everyone, only to then treat it as a warm up to a much lesser human villain. Any way you look at it, it's going to be anti-climatic. They could have extended the show to another couple of seasons after that to properly flesh out the "Dany losing it" thing, and it still wouldn't make up for the disappointment of killing off the WW early.
>that may change in time, I'm not sure,
It will be hard to imagine with time passing the sting of the end of this show reseeding enough to make the IP enjoyable again. I'll come back to finish the books if they are ever done, but mostly because I started with the books and I am curious to see how it ends 'for real'. Other than that, I am done with this IP. The end of this show has left such a sour taste in my mouth.
>the conclusion of the Night King and the way it became something pushed to one side so Dany could solve the Cersei problem.
That is arguably the main issue with the end, the white walker plot getting so easily solved and then pushed aside and forgotten about just to rush to Cersei/Euron being the big bad only to rush to Dany flipping and becoming the Mad Queen and arguably more dangerous than the night king and then she is also easily stabbed and forgotten about. All of it was far too rushed for the sack of getting to the end. It was terrible.
Season 7 should have been about revealing Jons heritage and the battle of Kings Landing
Season 8 should have been about the Battle with the Dead
Maybe but how would that fit around Dany going mad? If Dany going mad has to happen at the end, it would be interesting to see how they would work that out if she went mad at the end of the 7th Season and they have to face the repercussions of that at the same time as the White Walkers.
Although now that you mention that it would be interesting to see how the Nissa Nissa prophecy would fit into that, especially if Dany was Nissa Nissa.
But you are right I think; an entire season should have been spent with the white walkers and since it was the most overarching existential plot threat in the series it would make more sense to end with it and then the last episode could be them beginning to put the pieces back together. Ah so many options that would have been better.
Missandei on a warship - why was she there? instead of waiting at Winterfell until the battle was over? She acted like she was on a cruise, holding her boyfriends hand. Is it normal for soldiers to bring their girlfriends into battle? lol omg who wrote this???
sharebut how would she be captured and executed if she was not on the ship? That is how the writers were thinking, they had end points in mind for the characters and didn't give a damn about the lack of logic it took to get them to those decided endpoints. And it shows.
shareSomeone actually posted that Missandei would be caught and beheaded, before the episode aired - I didn't believe it - I thought that it made no sense - 1st how would she be caught?, and then why would anyone behead this sweet young girl??
Now I know it was just a way to try and explain Danys behavior, like this would push her over the edge - it is backwards writing - They wanted to show Dany go mad - and they thought having Missandei beheaded would take her there.
Ive never been so disgusted with a TV show.
Not for Dany, for Grey Worm. That dude was scary in episode 5.
shareWho could have predicted that Missandei would end up being arguably the most important figure in the show's conclusion. Without her death both Grey Worm and Dany might not have gone all genocidal and become mass murdering psychopaths.
shareAnd don't forget that stupid move helped the Night King to get a dragon and cross the Wall.
shareI said in another thread that I thought the Rhaegal death scene was the worst. It just defied logic in that Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet and then couldn't see them when she was flying. Then the icing on the cake is the shooting of the Scorpions, in how accurate they are 1 second and how inaccurate they are the next.
I mean it would be a two way tie between that scene being the most illogical and the decision of Jon and company to go and bring a member of the dead back to Cersei. It beggars belief how they considered they were supposed to extract one of the dead from a whole army and bring it back to the Wall without getting caught and killed off. After what happened at Hardhome it makes Jon look completely dumb for attempting it. The only way I can conceivably let him off is that he must think he's being looked out for by the Gods after coming back from the dead, and he'll somehow live through it. Otherwise it's nothing but a kamikaze mission.
That whole Beyond the Wall episode is just full of plot conveniences and illogic to be honest. The writers did everything in their power to make such a stupidly thought out mission work. They conveniently write a small separate group of the undead from the rest that Jon can go and attack. They conveniently make it so one of those undead didn't happen to be changed by the White Walker that was with them so that it can be the dead member they take back with them. They have Dany reach them to save the day in warp speed. They have the Night King decide he's not going to throw his spear at Drogon, who is down on the ground and a much easier target than flying Viserion. Then you have deus ex machina Benjen come out of nowhere to save Jon. And it all ends with the dead lifting the dragon out with chains (how did they attach them to Viserion under the water?), and they have a convenient means of getting past the Wall.
yeah, and where did they get that chain? they got huge Iron Forged chains just lying around? The way the writers ignored Logic is astounding.
shareWho knows!? The annoying thing is it wouldn't have taken much to write it to make some of these things a bit more believable. Like why not have Jon and company aware there is a smaller group of dead separated from the bigger army they can target, before they leave the Wall? They could see a vision in the flames or something and it would've made their mission that much more understandable. Or why not take a horse or 2? I mean did they think they were going to carry the wight back by foot? What would they have done without the dragon?
To be honest, the dragons should have made the need to bring back a wight to Cersei redundant. The thought should have been to take the dragons beyond the Wall and destroy as many of the dead as they could, right from the off. And THEN they could have had one of the dragons killed off by the Night King.
Bleugh, where to begin?
The Night King can summon blizzards but can't make a lake freeze over.
But that doesn't matter because the undead can walk on the bottom of the lake to attach chains to a dragon corpse. So they could have just walked to where Jon and his team were instead of waiting for it to freeze over (sigh).
Strange how the undead can forge chains but not build boats to sail around the wall.
The biggest nonsense is D&D deciding to kill the number one show in the world.
At the end of season 6, they decided they only needed 13 episodes to end (or kill) the show.
Everybody expected Dany to sit on the throne because nobody can compete with the dragons.
So they had to kill the dragons and they did it the most stupid possible way.
The night king was obviously a much stronger enemy than Cersei. So first you kill Cersei, and you keep the NK for the end. There's no hurry killing the night king. The white walkers are stuck beyond the wall.
And they would probably be stuck beyond the wall forever if the good guys didn't get the first dragon killed during the stupid ""let's kidnap a dead guy" mission.
Blame it on Dorne. The Long Night was supposed to be the end, it is episode 70. They shoot all over the world and use castles in exotic locations. But they cannot have Bran's cave at the same time as they have Dragonstone because it is the same set. Also when they make snow versus ash, it's really the same stuff. They just chop up paper and spray a little mist on it before hitting it with the leaf blower. The dire wolves are really just films of dogs going about their business, and the dragons are like those things people ride on in the bar when they get too drunk. Sometimes they chase Kit around the set with a plastic dragon head so he can "get into character" and also the reason he holds Emilia by the head when they are doing boat stuff is so her wig won't get messed up while they roll around.
share