So isn't the term "subverting your expectations" just a fancy way of saying
DISAPPOINTING YOU?
shareIt means all the good ideas have been used up so now they have to use the bad ones.
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MovieChat Forums > Game of Thrones (2011) Discussion > So isn't the term "subverting your expec...
Well, when hacks try to subvert expectations, then yes. The Red Wedding subverted expectations didn't it? But it certainly didn't disappoint. When Thanos got his head chopped off 15 mins into Endgame, that subverted my expectations. You just have to have a little bit of talent to do it right. Not even talent really, just competence will do. An average fan theory is better than the final season of Game of Thrones.
shareWhen you write a script you should focus on why rather than how, if you can't figure out why it's there in the story except to surprise the audience it means you should throw it away, it doesn't matter how you write the script if it's just filled with pointless crap.
sharePlot points making sense is a literary trope. Game of Thrones was always more like a fictional history. In real history, the good guys die unexpectedly sometimes. Prophecy remains cryptic. Some paths start out promising and then get dropped.
share"Some paths start out promising and then get dropped"
Sums up the show.
^^^This.
shareYes! It is!
Because the biggest shockers the show ever offered weren't achieved by subverting expectations (a.k.a. pulling something out of your ass), they were both a huge surprise and exactly what we were afraid of. The tension had been ramped up all seasons or for several seasons, and had gotten worse and worse and we were wondering what the hell was going to give... and the Red Wedding or the Sept of Baylor "gave" in ways that were both shocking, and exactly what the characters would have done in those circumstances. Yes, Tywin Lannister WOULD look around for someone who was close to Robb Start and who had a grudge he could exploit. Yes, Cersei Lannister Baratheon WOULD wait until she knew where all her enemies were and blow them up along with the innocent bystanders.
And no, the council of high lords would NOT pull King Bran the Broken out of their asses. That made no sociopolitical sense, and was out of character for them all.
> and was out of character for them all.
I disagree, at least on the word "all".
I see Edmure and Robyn as people who are easily persuaded. Tyrion probably could’ve talked them into voting for Hodor (if he was still alive). For Sansa it was the best thing that could happen. Sam regards him as a friend. Brienne and Davos, while you can’t say they are real friends to Bran, they surely regard him as a man who can be trusted. Gendry is new to this stuff, maybe he just followed the vote of the others – but principally I don’t see why it would be IN character for him to vote AGAINST Bran. (Note that I’m not saying you’re wrong on Gendry, I’m just saying I don’t understand why you feel it’s out of character for him, which simply might be a lack of imagination on my side.)
The new Prince of Dorne – we know NOTHING about him, so we simply can’t tell if it’s out of character or not.
That other Lord from the Vale, can’t remember his name (the one who refused to help Littlefinger in his trial at Winterfell) and Yara Greyjoy – I have no idea what made them vote for Bran, so yes, you might be right for them.
And the other people on the council – I have to admit I have no idea who they were, so *I* can’t tell if it’s out of character for them. To form an opinion here, I’d first have to learn who they were.
Why would anyone regard Bran as someone to be trusted? No one has seen him since he was a child. He disappeared for years and turned up at Winterfell, after which he did pretty much nothing. It is ludicrous in this world in general for a crippled Boy that nobody even knows to be made king. You seem to be missing the wood for the trees.
share> Why would anyone regard Bran as someone to be trusted?
Because Brienne and Davos were around him in Winterfell for some time where he was on the war councils AND offered to be bait for the NK.
> It is ludicrous in this world in general for a crippled Boy that nobody even knows to be made king.
Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree here.
"> It is ludicrous in this world in general for a crippled Boy that nobody even knows to be made king."
And I'll have to disagree as well.
In a world where the last "Mad King" ended up causing decades of civil war and strife and dragon fire, it's absolutely ludicrous that a person who appears to be crazy was appointed as the new king, the one who's supposed to bring peace.
> a person who appears to be crazy
He proably appears to be crazy to people who just met him, or only see him from distance as most of his subjects will do. But I don’t think he appeared crazy to Brienne, Davos, Sansa or Gendry. Certainly not to Sam.
Or did you mean something like: While they were okay with Bran personally, they should have thought about how he will appear to all the other people in the Kingdom?
"Or did you mean something like: While they were okay with Bran personally, they should have thought about how he will appear to all the other people in the Kingdom?"
BOTH. Look, I've spent the last two years wondering how much humanity Bran has left, and my answer has usually been "not much". On the rare occasion when he tried to offer someone sympathy he creeped the fuck out of them, and usually he doesn't try to engage with people at all, he's got nothing in common with normal humans and doesn't give a rat's ass about their concerns. So while I do buy that the Council of Lords is largely made up of idiots and noobs and Tyrion could easily sway them (Sansa excepted), I don't buy that those same lords would think anything of Bran but "Wasn't it sweet of Sansa to bring the physically and mentally disabled heir to the Stark name".
And yes, I'm trying to imagine how the public would react to the new king, and the answer is always "Not well". Yes, his flat affect and lack of engagement do make him seem mentally off (I'm still not convinced he's "on"), and the way he makes decisions based on things that nobody else can see wouldn't go over well in a public forum. Say he sits in judgement as kings do, as Joffrey used to do, and a murder trial is brought before him. He says "That man is innocent, the real killer is _____, go find _____ and hang him". Of course he'd be totally right, but to anyone who didn't know where he's getting his information it'd look as rational as Aerys burning people alive in the throne room.
Really, the Lords would have done better to make Gendry king, he's got "a story" too, and he'd be much more appealing to the public.
The "crippled boy" was the Lord of Winterfell. He wasn't some rando.
shareOh, he was Ned Starks only surviving legitimate son.. but he was *not* the Lord of Winterfell. In a culture where it's considered proper and honorable to start wars to defend one's birthright, he'd sat quietly by while his half-brother was declared Kinginthenorth, and his sister took over the actual ruling. He'd officially given up his claim to inherit The North, and I assume he was widely thought to be incapable of ruling.
I'm still not convinced he's capable.
Not at all.
Subverting expectations is a powerful tool for a screenwriter. It's commonly used in comedy (and it can make great comedy).... but not only in comedy: RR Martin has been subverting expectations since the very beginning. As a reader, you expect the archetypical 'hero journey'... but the journey can end suddenly with the hero dead. When Ned Stark was beheaded, Martin was subverting expectations: you didn't expect that the most important character in the first book of a saga could be killed.
The season 8 was the opposite of subverting expectations. Season 8 was the standard average cheap fantasy novel: deus ex machina, main characters wearing a thick plot armor, plot twists pulled out of the sleeve and incoherent characters. It was Martin the one subverting expectations. D&D (screenwriters) went back to expectations in fantasy genre. Indeed, they went back to the expected level in nay standard fantasy D&D (dungeons&dragons) novel. Pun intended.
I think there is a fundamental difference in subverting expectations, in the sense that the story does not follow the well trodden path that you expect a story to follow, and violating a character. There is also a difference between a twist that is exciting and adds layers to the story, and a twist that is shocking because it makes the story less interesting than you thought it would be.
Ned Stark's death was completely in keeping with his character. It was also a pivotal point for the story. It set several other characters on their journeys.
The Door was shocking because it revealed something about Hodor's character that changed how you viewed his entire story up to that point. It added a tragedy to his character that we weren't aware of. And it made complete sense.
Arya killing the Night King was unexpected, but in a way that was less interesting that what we had expected. We were waiting some kind of dramatic showdown, a hidden plan that Bran had that would be revealed, a revelation of the Night King's motives. Arya stabbing him was shocking because it was so much simpler and prosaic than we expected. It made the story less than we imagined, not more.
Danarys burning Kings Landing was shocking because it was out of character. It was shocking in the same way that Jon deciding to randomly rape a child would be shocking.
they didn't go back to standard expectations though -- in a standard hero's journey, Jon Snow would have become king.
shareNo, it means they don't follow the standard literary tropes for sword and sorcery novels or TV shows.
So the presumed early hero dies. Then the next presumed hero dies.
Then the next presumed hero turns out to be the main villain.
Then the "prince who was promised" never materializes, and goes to live in the woods.
It was great. Not sure why people thought the obvious hero was going to end up on the throne.
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