MovieChat Forums > Game of Thrones Discussion > So I've heard that D&D changed GRRM's or...

So I've heard that D&D changed GRRM's original ending:


Okay! Over at the Datalounge a totally anonymous posted some gossip about changes in the ending, and sometimes *some* of the gossip over there turns out to be true. So here's what that totally anonymous person said about the ending:

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"So I asked, (apparently I’m not the only one asking questions about what happened right now), and managed to get a few new bits of information. GRRM has made it clear he’s ‘not pleased’ with how the show ended behind closed doors. Things were already strained between him and D&D, but this was the final straw. It’s categorically NOT the ending he had planned for the characters. The good thing is that it’s finally lit a rocket up his ass to finish the next book...

"The original plan for S7 and 8 was quite different. Cersei’s pregnancy was meant to end with her miscarrying at the end of S7 as Jaime rode North. That scene was filmed, but held back, and then cut entirely. That was meant to signal the start of her spiralling into absolute madness. The whole nonsensical ‘Bronn being sent to kill Jaime and Tyrion’ plot is a hangover from that original outline, but he was meant to go after Sansa (who Cersei believed had her poisoned), and in turn Brienne, which was supposed to be the death knell for any reconciliation for the twins when Bronn came North and told Tyrion and Jaime about Cersei plans. That was the set up for Jaime being the Valonqar, which morphed into Jon killing Dany.

"Dany was always meant to lose it after being provoked by Cersei, but the situation was a lot less black and white. With nothing left to lose, Batshit!Cersei was going to outright threaten to blow up King’s Landing with the remaining wildfire. Dany still ends up razing the capital, but it’s in the aftermath of a far more even battle. She wins, but but everyone (including Grey Worm) she brought West with her dies. Both Jon and Tyrion walk away from her too, and she commands Drogon to melt the throne and flies back East.

"George is working towards a return to seven independent kingdoms in the books, but they cut so many of his characters that is was never a realistic option. In the show, Jon was meant to sit on the throne originally, with Jaime, in the aftermath of killing Cersei, paying for his crimes by serving as his Hand. They essentially split the two major beats of Jaime’s arc, killing his Queen and becoming Hand, between Jon and Tyrion and fucked him (and Cersei) over, because HBO wanted to ensure that Kit, Emilia and particularly Peter would get a shot at Emmys. (Nikolaj and Lena were smart enough to realise that their character arcs were being sacrificed.) King Bran was the result of D&D being OBSESSED with reading online theories and wanting to come out of left field. There was also discussion of how it would be perceived if they removed a woman from the throne and placed a man there instead. ‘Bran the Broken’, as a disabled character, was the compromise. The second hand embarrassment is fucking painful! "

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https://www.datalounge.com/thread/22521737

The post I quoted is 411 replies down.

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Sounds true -- but I'm also sure there were versions other than this one.

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And a bit later, someone who seems to be the same guy added:

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"No, Sansa and Brienne would both live, but Bronn would make it explicitly clear to Tyrion and Jaime that he’d find a way to get to them if they didn’t make a better offer to him than Cersei already had. Bronn hedging his bets was always planned. It was just less nonsensical. It was about bringing things back around to Jaime betraying Cersei and sending Brienne after Sansa. I know it was scripted in the S7 finale that Cersei would notice Brienne carrying Oathkeeper in the Dragon Pit. It may have been filmed as well, but I’m not sure.

"Sansa becoming Queen in the North was always intended. There was far more meaning to Jaime and Brienne hooking up originally. Jon chooses Jaime as his hand because because he wants someone who’d be prepared to stop him should he overstep the mark. Who better than someone who’s killed their King/Queen twice over? Jaime was meant to be the checks and balances. He was meant to marry Brienne and she was going to be the checks and balances on the checks and balances. It would also strengthen the links between the Six Kingdoms and the newly independent North. (The political aspect of a Jaime/Brienne union comes straight from George.)

"Jon and Jaime ruling together in the show was foreshadowed in the first couple of episodes. When Jon Arryn’s body is barely cold, Cersei tells Jaime that he should be hand. They also specifically added the non-book scene where Jon and Jaime meet and discuss being in the Kingsguard and the Night’s Watch for life. The original intention was always that they’d return to that. "

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444 replies down this time.
https://www.datalounge.com/thread/22521737



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I'm not sure most of this stuff is an improvement

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Like I've been saying, maybe GRRM can't finish the books because his ideas for the finale sucked.

Two things stood out of this mess for me:

1: Danerys was supposed to melt the throne and fly away, not go all Nazi-on-a-dragon. No wonder that felt forced.

2: Jon WAS supposed to be king, so Danery's vision of snow on the iron throne had the meaning I thought it did.

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Jon as king sounds cliched and boring. And he was too stupid to be king. Bran is a figurehead. Tyrion is really the king even though he doesn't have the title.

GRRM was unhappy with the series being rushed since he said that it could have lasted 11 seasons. He told D&D what would happen with the major characters. Only the minor characters will have different endings in his books.

He'll probably finish the novels now that he's completed the prequel books for the spin-off series. HBO making money was the real priority.

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I see we have an "expectation subverter" here. Jon as King would have made sense. Unlike the incoherent utter shit that we got. Massive improvement.

"GRRM told D&D what would happen with the major characters".

Well if you say it is so, I guess it must be true. There is an interview with him saying(paraphrasing)

"from the conversations we had I think the major characters with have the same beats, but I don't really know as I'm no longer involved in the show"

So pretty much the opposite of what you wrote.

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The ending makes perfect sense for me. It could've been less rushed and better dialogue, but otherwise I'm fine with the outcomes of the characters though I expect the secondary characters won't all have happy or bittersweet endings in the books. GRRM appeared to believe that was fan service.

You're paraphrasing wrong. GRRM basically said that the major characters in the book and TV show will have the same endings. The secondary characters probably won't. Jon, Tyrion, Cersei and Dany are major characters.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/will-george-r-r-martin-game-of-thrones-books-end-like-the-hbo-series-60-minutes/

Jon said many times that he didn't want to be king therefore you shouldn't be surprised that he's not king.

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What are you talking about? There was never any question of John being King before he found out he was Targaryan. When did he ever talk about "not wanting to be king"? Unless you mean in the last 3 episodes of this season. So you mean that because they wrote that he didn't want to be king in the last episode, it didn't make sense for him to become king? Alriiiiiiight then.

you wrote this:

"He told D&D what would happen with the major characters."

In that interview he says the OPPOSITE of what you wrote. They told him what would happen. Jesus.

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Nonsense. GRRM clearly says that the minor characters will be different - not the major ones.

Why are you fighting with the character that GRRM created? Obviously, Jon didn't want to be king or he would've become king. The wildlings knew he wanted to live with them which is why they were waiting for him at the wall.

It doesn't make sense for him to be king since he wasn't playing the game, anyway.

If GRRM is too difficult for you, just stick with Dr. Seuss.

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So basically because you say it's so then it is. Waaaaaa!!

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D&D said so. GRRM said so.

You're the one crying about their ending, not me.

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The only reason you think is clichéd and boring is because you've been on the boards with access to the R+L=J theories. For most, it would've been a surprise. 2nd, you don't insert a twist without a foreshadowing just for its sake, that would've truly been clichéd and boring.

It's like those who watch The Usual Suspects and Shakespeare and exclaim it's clichéd and boring well after it has made its mark.

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> For most, it would've been a surprise.

A SURPRISE?
A bastard, not loved by bis stepmother, outsider in the world he lives in, doing nothing but good things almost always, fights his way up and becomes King in the end.
THAT would’ve been a surprise? Come on!

I’ve feared that he might become Kind in the end for a long time, before I started visiting the imdb boards and I’ve never visited any other boards (of course, this one here later when the imdb boards were shut down).

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Lol, yeah I don't nt believe you. We get you guys on every The Sixth Sense, Psycho, The Usual Suspects board.

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Feel free to call me a liar, and I feel free I call you plainly stupid if you don’t get that Jon becoming King would’ve been the good old "from rags to riches" story that we’ve seen a thousand times and thus, surely isn’t "surprising" in any way.

Plus, I don’t see why I should lie here.
I’ve had Jon becoming King on my list of possible endings – which makes me WRONG! I DIDN’T predict the ending. "Hey, guys, see how great I am? I totally failed in predicting the ending! Cool, huh?"

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We'll never be able to verify this because no way in hell will GRRM finish the books in his lifetime.

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Seems like fan fiction for what someone wanted to happen.

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Entirely possible, the forum is completely anonymous.

Still, sometimes the gossip there is spot-on, like when a celebrity comes out of the closet everyone there already knows who their steady boyfriend or girlfriend is.

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> Seems like fan fiction for what someone wanted to happen.

I fully agree.

Although I admit it might be wishful thinking, because I also agree to dmac8 above when he/she said "I'm not sure most of this stuff is an improvement".

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Sounded plausible until the part where Dan and Dave were the deciders on who would sit on the Iron Throne (and chose Bran from reading fan fiction) instead of GRRM.

Come ON!

I don't for a second believe the answer to the ultimate question paramount to the entire epic would be left to Dan and Dave to decide.

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I dont know if the discussed changes were possible or not, because I dont know how much creative control GRRM had in his contract, or whether his sale of the famous outline for the final chapters included a contracual obligation to use it as written. Because if GRRM didnt nail down script approval in the sale of the TV rights the way JK Rowling did when the "Harry Potter" books were made, then HBO and the showrunners *would* feel free to change the ending if they felt like it. That's how scriptwriting goes in Hollywood.

As to who would make the final decision about any story changes, I assume it'd be the showrunners.

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Yeah, with Rowling & how popular the Harry Potter books were at the time. She was able to demand certain things before signing over the rights.

GRRM in all honestly was nowhere close to that level of success when he signed a contact with HBO. HBO & the show-runners would’ve had final say on everything. Of course, I’m sure they always tried to be courteous towards GRRM’s vision, but in the end, it would be left to D&D to decide.

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Yeah but we would've heard something by now if D&D had changed the ending on Martin. Instead, Martin has been largely defending them on the show ending saying only how the books will differ in how they get there (I expect far better delivery from character development) but with the major plot points intact.

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Got a quote?

Because FYI just because a person involved with Holywood says something to the press, that doesn't make it true. Certainly not when there may be contracted obligations to publicize the show, or a percentage of the S8 DVD sales or syndication fees involved.

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60 Minutes Overtime interview Anderson Cooper straight up asked him whether he worried fans would have Dan and Dave's ending in mind instead of his. He said no because the endings should be the same and the primary differences will be in the secondary characters. But go ahead and believe whatever makes you happy. I don't believe he was lying through his teeth to Anderson Cooper when it sounded like a perfectly straightforward and compelling interview to me.

I also saw a clip where he was ridiculing the notion he would change the ending in the books from what he told Dan and Dave the ending would be. I'm sure you can find the clip on youtube with a little digging.

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I dont claim a bit of the quote as above is true.

All I will say is that the more attention you pay to Hollywood, the less you believe what entertainment personalities say in interviews.

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Actually, paying more attention to the interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjDentEr9c4 let's one see how carefully and slowly GRRM is choosing the words for his answers and how vaguely he speaks. That's understandable because he's trying to be polite and not very much open at the same time. The books are not yet finished so theoretically speaking the plot can go through drastic changes.

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> All I will say is that the more attention you pay to Hollywood,
> the less you believe what entertainment personalities say in interviews.

You’re right, but the statement "the more attention you pay to the web, the less you believe what anonymus people say in forums" is true as well.

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Hence my multiple disclaimers.

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Why wouldn't it be for them to decide? They were the ones who decided to divert from GRRM's vision when they made so many changes to his story in seasons 5 and 6. They were the ones who decided to end the show with only 13 episodes and rush to the ending, despite HBO, their boss (or were they?) wanting more seasons. They were the ones who decided to lazily write season 8 in the most simplistic way possible. They were the ones to want to add in so much fanservice. They're the ones all the actors are afraid of speaking ill of in interviews when they clearly want to. I have no idea what has happened behind the scenes, but clearly Dumb & Dumber have a lot of power over the show. They could do whatever the hell they wanted. Season 8 proves this.

So I see no reason why they couldn't change the ending if they wanted to.

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Again because GRRM said they didn't in an interview with Anderson Cooper on 60 Minutes Overtime interview like I said above.

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You just take whatever someone says as fact and that's it? wtf?

It could have gone so many way. It's sad that you don't realize this.

GRRM could have given them the real ending and they used it or GRRM could have given them the real ending but they decided to not use it and they didn't let him know, or GRRM could have given them a fake ending, etc

So I suppose you took Peter Dinklage saying that there are no better writers in television than Dumb and Dumber and that they ended the show brilliantly as factual, just because he said so? You don't see think that there's a lot of ass kissing in the show business so as to not lose your career?

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Wtf are you talking about? I think you're responding to the wrong post. You should take more care to direct your spam to the right poster.

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No, Wtf are YOU talking about, fool? My post was clearly aimed at you. Don't change the subject in an attempt to avoid my response. That's pathetic.

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"You just take whatever someone says as fact and that's it? wtf?"

No, you're clearly the fool addressing the wrong poster. The only person I was taking at face value was George RR Martin himself in an interview with Anderson Cooper saying that D&D stuck to his ending. FYI he's not just "someone", he's the author of the series. Get your facts straight and try and reply to the right poster next time instead of making such a titanic tool out of yourself.

BTW, I'm completely giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're addressing the wrong poster. The other possibility is that your reading comprehension is just abysmal.

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FYI I dont take anything said in an entertainment "news" interview as 100% factual. People sit for these interviews because they want to sell product, not because they want to share the truth with rhe world.

And I do assume that GRRM has at least some interest in selling DVDs and syndication rights, and he may have some financial interest in playing ball with HBO and D&D.

We'll probably never know what really happened behind the scenes in season 8, which doesnt atop.me being curious.

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When Game of Thrones veered in an unexpected direction during the finale, the general assumption was that Daenerys’ shift into supervillainy was George R.R. Martin canon, executed poorly, while “King Bran the Broken” was surely the brainchild of showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss.

Turns out, that’s not true; George R.R. Martin reportedly plans to end his A Song of Ice and Fire series as the show did, with Bran sitting on the Iron Throne. In an interview for HBO’s Making Game of Thrones, Bran actor Isaac Hempstead-Wright revealed that the twist was indeed part of the planned ending that Martin told the Game of Thrones showrunners, stating:

"David and Dan told me there were two things George R.R. Martin had planned for Bran - that was the Hodor revelation, and that he would be king. So that’s pretty special to be directly involved in something that is part of George’s vision. It was a really nice way to wrap it up."


https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2019/05/30/that-hugely-controversial-game-of-thrones-ending-was-george-r-r-martins-idea/#4efc1ba4cccd

I'm happy to take the word of GRRM and Isaac Hempstead-Wright at face value because I see no reason for them to lie. Your idea GRRM could have been contractually obligated by HBO to publicly claim D&D's ending was his doesn't make any sense. Why would HBO insist and why would he agree to something so absurd? It's not like publicly admitting different endings would have had any impact on DVD sales or syndication rights. GoT had already proven its platinum worth as the biggest and most popularly followed series in the world many times over. Saying their endings differed wasn't going to change that.

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"The only person I was taking at face value was George RR Martin himself in an interview with Anderson Cooper saying that D&D stuck to his ending."

Why? What is it about him that you'd think he is incapable of lying?

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He'd have no motive. Think about it, this is GRRM's life's work. It's his baby. If GoT was your life's work and D&D changed the ending of what you envisioned you'd be pissed. Anyone would be. I certainly wouldn't be going on the biggest national news program in the country right before the final season saying our endings are in harmony if they had actually butchered my baby. The idea he could have been contractually obligated by HBO to publicly claim D&D's ending was his doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. To what end? It's not like saying their endings differed would have had any impact on DVD sales or syndication rights.

Your idea he would lie just for the sake of lying is just nonsense when you haven't bothered to provide a coherent reason as to why he would. Besides, check out the money quote I gave above from Isaac Hempstead-Wright who has confirmed the show used GRRM's ending.

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Sounds true, but unless GRRM or D&D say otherwise, you have to assume it’s fake.

It does explain that extremely random, non-sensical moment that the dragon melts the Iron Throne and flies away with Dany’s body, though.

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A remarkably better ending, Jamie’s ending would have been far far better as would Cersei, Daenerys realizing her future, as her past was meant to be ruling her people in Essos would have been fitting.

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Some of that sounds right. Well it sure as shit sounds more logical. I definitely believe they did a lot of that just lifting ideas that were written for other characters and sticking them on different characters whether it made sense or not. That's exactly how the whole last season felt.

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Jon and Jaime? What an odd pairing. I can’t recall even one scene where they had a conversation. Jaime is a warrior not an advisor. I remember Tyrion talking to Jon in S1, ep 1 “never forget you’re a bastard”. That seems like a foreshadowing of their last conversation in Jon’s prison cell.

I don’t like the Bran as King ending, but every ruler of Westeros sucked and they all came to violent, early deaths. The Iron Throne, whether it physically exists or not, is cursed. Maybe Bran won’t last long or maybe his 3-eyed raven powers will break the curse. It is all so fuzzy where the story would go next.

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I do like the idea of Jon taking on a kingslayer as his Hand, precisely because he *is* a kingslayer. And basically inviting Jamie to kill him if he goes bad. Who knows whether Jamie would be good at the actual job, but he's a clever man who's seen how it's done so I suppose they could do worse.

And I do like the idea of Danerys experiencing a pyrrhic victory and realizing that she shouldn't be queen, melting the Iron Throne and going away. That does seem in more in character for someone who's usually acted from noble moties and done the right thing, and whos only major flaw was the conviction that it conquering Westeros with blood and fire was the right thing to do. Maybe the Danerys I watched for seven seasons was supposed to be capable of realizing how wrong that was... or maybe some guy who thinks like me wrote some fan fiction and put it on an anonymous forum. Well, I like his ideas better than the ones that were used in S8, wherever the ideas came from.

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