By GRRM's own words, Jaime was considered the greatest fighter in Westeros. They couldn't even show him have enough resolve to at least train to become semi-competent so that a fight between Euron the pirate wasn't as pathetic and shame-inducing as the display we saw in episode 5.
From long-haired knight to peasant.
Never liked them cutting off his hand in the book.
It took away perhaps his character's most important trait and made him less of a threat. It's like taking away the Lannister gold in the show that defines them, all to push that stupid Iron Bank storyline.
Making Dany barren was another thing I didn't like. How can people be rooting for her to take the throne back for her family when she can't even have children and there will be a power struggle and civil war when she dies?
The witch could have been lying about Dany.
shareThen Daario was shooting blanks for years apparently.
shareCould be. Or she didn't want to become pregnant by just anybody since she's a queen. She had already kicked him to the curb.
shareShe didn't believe she could have kids. She's said this as fact for years. No way she was making Daario pull out. She would want to know if she can get pregnant. Probably not getting pregnant with him is what made her certain it was true. Some have said the witch could have lied, but both in the books and the TV show, Dany being barren is treated as fact.
shareDany told Jon. His response was that the witch could have lied. The witch lied about wanting to help save Drogo's life and help her baby. Why wouldn't she have lied about the pregnancy too?
It would be a better story if she were pregnant with Jon's child. If not, Jon or his children could still be named heir to the throne after her. Unlikely to happen since her days are probably numbered.
I hate the idea that Jon could have kids after his resurrection. Beric made it clear that it changed you and he wished he was never brought back.
The idea of someone essentially a zombie fathering a royal line seems too out there for me. Another reason I hated his pairing with Dany. You got two people that are likely sterile.
Jon is an idiot. He repeatedly makes stupid decisions and never listens to good advice. I prefer that Sansa rules. She started off naive, but grew smarter. And she could marry (Tyrion?) and continue the line.
Dany started off inexperienced and grew also, but she is too cruel.
As I've said before, I don't see Jon taking over at this point. He would have to kill Dany and he would never want to rule after that.
I doubt it will end up that way, but I always said that after the Targaryens fell, the Seven Kingdoms should have gone back to being independent Kingdoms. They operate that way regardless. The same conflicts and the people in each Kingdom are loyal to their great house and not the throne. Joffrey was King and literally on the Lannisters backed up. He had no support as King. It's a joke.
Never made sense that Tywin didn't want to be King like his ancestors after the Mad King fell. Robert didn't give a shit and would have accepted being King in the Stormlands. Would have been easier for all really.
As for Tywin... if he'd been king of the Westerlands, he'd have been king of 1/7 th of Westeros. But as hand of the king to a series of idiots, he was ruling ALL of Westeros!
So yes, it made sense for Tywin to support the monarchy.
He was ruling in Casterly Rock through Robert's reign. People in KL hated him for sacking the city. It made no sense that he didn't want to be King like his ancestors IMO. Situation was perfect for a split back to what it was.
shareI suspect he wanted to go back to being HotK and the real ruler, when his grandson became king.
Remember, he was at the council that decided to appoint Robert as the new king, instead if spliting up the kingdoms when the Targs fell. That was when he got his daughter made queen and himself HotK, his made his grandchildren the next rulers. No, he always wanted to rule Westeros, and have his descendants rule after him.
Did the independent kingdoms war with each other? If so, they need a unifying leader to maintain the peace. Otherwise I like the independent kingdom idea, but most viewers would probably feel cheated.
Joffrey wasn't the rightful heir and he killed Ned Stark setting off the civil war. Robert was chosen because he had a little Targaryen ancestry.
Cersei was right about the Targaryens being foreign invaders. They should just choose a true Westeros inhabitant like Sansa or Tyrion.
Arya could kill Dany.
Yeah, but they go to war anyway. They had the same conflicts as if independent Kingdoms.
Fealty doesn't mean shit in Westeros. If Tywin doesn't back Joffrey, then he has zero support and no army. Really, the Great House in each Kingdom had more power. They had their own army and their own support base. Most of the Great Houses either rebelled or didn't do shit to help Joffrey or Tommen. And it's like they weren't even expected to.
Joffrey was an idiot. Tywin was the one who really ran the kingdom - not Joffrey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk5hKomP4MA
(great scene)
Viewers would riot if they choose nobody to win the Iron Throne and go back to independent kingdoms. I like it as a twist, but most would believe it's a cop out. Eight seasons with no payoff.
And Sansa the pathological liar should be on the throne? Let's hope she's not in some intense negotiations and spills to someone who will seek her head. She is chronically unfit for rule because she cannot do the one thing that is required of a good leader: Keep her effing trap shut. She lied to Jon twice, and then blabbed to Tyrion a secret Jon begged her to keep to herself. Ned kept his secret till death. Sansa would never do that. She's too busy being A Lady to get her hands dirty. Hell she had to be told what to do with the dragonglass knife for crying out loud. Dany at least knows how to take care of business. "Dracarys!"
shareThat's a good point about Dany.
shareIn the context of the show, it certainly made him far less interesting. There was an element of unexpectedness when he was able-bodied. Dangerous situation? Can he cut his way through a few men? Conflict? Will his reputation get him out of it?
Once he lost his hand, any element of suspense was lost. Yes, he could have died far more easily, but it would have had less impact because he wasn't capable of anything.
I get the impression that had Barristan Selmy lived up to the battle with the Night King at Winterfell, they probably would have killed him off too for being a peripheral character, which would have been ridiculous given his reputation as a fighter, next to others who had survived.
Such is the writing for this show at the moment I guess.
Well, in the show he was killed by some untrained harpies. Then you have characters who don't die against a dozen fighters.
There needs to be continuity. It's one thing to have a plan for your characters, but that conclusion should be reached within the context of what has happened throughout the show. It can't be created artificially, and that's the entire issue here.
Bronn taught him how to fight dirty.
shareWe never even see Jaime winning a sword fight on this show when he had both hands, despite his reputation.
- His fight with Ned Stark is interrupted at a stalemate.
- He cuts through a million men off-screen during his war with the North.
- He gets beaten up by Brienne.
At least Barristan Selmy (arguably the second best fighter in the books) got one obligatory fight scene before he was killed by a gang of merchants.
Given what we see in the show, it doesn't seem like the writers really cared to explore that aspect all that much. Whether or not Jaime was even a good fighter would have meant nothing in the context of the show, because as you said, that skill never played any pivotal role.
Yeah, I agree ... I thought it undercut the loss of his hand.
If he’d been shown to be some kind of super dominant fighter (like The Hound), the hand chop would have been a “wow” moment.
Instead, the show either downplayed his skill to make other characters look cool (why did Ned need to be bad-ass?) or they didn’t have the budget (the off-screen battle with Robb’s army).
Yes it did, especially when Catelyn decided to kidnap Tyrion & Jaime in a rage went after Ned. We all saw how badass he was then. They didn't do "enough" regarding this aspect of him but don't say it meant nothing. When he was finally captured did you see all the men it took to drag him away? Yeah that's Jaime.
shareI don’t know why people want every situation to be a perfect „hero movie“ situation for GOT. GOT has always shown people as people. Good people do bad stuff, bad people good stuff; the best fighter loses a hand because it happened, he couldn’t manage to get his full skills back because he just couldn’t (lack of time to train, probably would have taken many years under non-rushed circumstances) - this all plays out the way it does because that’s how life is...not to please fans, to give them „a good show“.
I mean, he has traveled for weeks, the realm has little resources, he probably felt exhausted, he just wanted to get to Cercei...why should there have been „a epic fight“ between the two? That’s so cliche.
I understand where you're coming from.
The loss of Jaime's hand was a pivotal catalyst for a plot. The problem is GoT never really explored that plot. We could argue that despite Jaime's maiming--which he received from the get-go because of Cersei--he came back to Cersei. Even the loss of his hand wasn't enough to see her for the villain she is.
None of this was developed well enough to have any sort of meaningful impact, though. In the show, Jaime's character would have been just the same had he still been able-bodied. At least with a hand, we wouldn't feel sorry for his death.
An interesting character was presented in the show, developed finely for a few years, and then just discarded. After season 4, that's what Jaime became, a secondary character that the writers couldn't spend the time developing because he had no pivotal role to play. All of the attention was transferred to Cersei/Dany/Jon/Bran.
I get it, c'est la vie, but come on, it's upsetting.
I guess that I just don’t see it that way.
How do you figure that he lost his hand because of her? I could see how you‘d be upset at him for going back to her if she actually was the one who cut it off, but she didn’t.
And as for seeing her as the villain: he grew up with her, he saw her suffering (basically sold into a marriage of a man who didn’t want her), her struggles, her love for her children, her love for him etc... he was willing to overlook a lot of the bad because he focused on what he loved in her. There are a lot of people in the RW who stand by their partner despite the horrendous things they do (and on a lighter level I‘m sure we are all guilty of those actions).
Issue with some of the writing. Well, yes, we all have some; but I appreciate the difficulty of writing for a show with a lot of characters, time limits and tons of people you have to answer to...so this story at least didn’t bother me.
But hey, we all have our own opinions and likes and dislikes and you are certainly allowed to hate Jamies arc.
I respect your opinion and am glad that you enjoy the show. That's all that matters. I don't want to try and convince you of anything. I think my main qualm stems from Jaime going from knight to pawn in a figurative and literal sense without any recourse. He had something removed that may have enabled him to compete in the game of thrones but instead was playing with a disadvantage.
shareOh, I didn’t think that you tried to convince me, no worries ;) We are just having a conversation.
And with the books as well as the show - I can see almost everyone having problems with the way one character or another is going.
As many people react different to any given situation or view them differently, depending on their upbringing and past experiences, it makes for really interesting conversations (that I have in RL with people as well).
That’s part of why I really enjoy the series (both books and TV) - I can sit back and watch it unfold, sometimes it frustrates me but in the end I just find it interesting how they reacted, often surprising me. Then I talk to people and they took it a completely different way - and we can have the same conversation but from another persons view (and knowing my friends and family I can then dive in to analyze why they reacted the way they did to xyz information).
🤷♀️I love to analyze things :p
Probably a lot more information that you wanted or needed now lol
Haha, you're a good man/woman. Keep the good fighting going.
shareConsider the possibility that Jaime was born gifted. Any coach will tell you that the truly gifted athlete is usually the laziest athlete, especially if he is male. Women athletes, and disabled athletes, tend to be MUCH more determined than a gifted able-bodied male. I’ve trained with, and learned from, a number of great coaches in different disciplines, and I know what I’ve seen. It’s very possible for a swordsman to become adept with either hand, witness Inago Montoya in The Princess Bride. Jaime lacked to moxie to do so—with one exception: I know most of you could not see it, but he fought like a maniac in the Battle of Winterfell when he saw Brienne being overwhelmed by a tsunami of Walkers. It was the first and only time I’ve seen him FIGHT with his left hand. Was he the old Jaime? No, not close; but his fighting WILL was returned, and he saved Brienne.
I think Jaime’s disgrace shows that the Lannisters, stripped of their privileges, are not the aristocrats they imagine themselves to be. Perhaps their bloodline has grown thin.
Excellent analysis.
shareThank you. Much appreciated. It’s wonderful to encounter civility and reason in the current Got Twilight of the Gods environment. I feel really sorry for Jaime. He, like Theon, has been neutered. (I believe that Theon had his penis amputated [as implied by Ramsey eating a sausage in front of him], and not his testicles removed, but in neither case is the man, ah, capable.) How does he regain his sense of self, his dignity, his manhood? There is no easy answer; but I want to stress that Jaime lost his hand/and so on in the books. The showrunners, who have taken more crap than they deserve in these environs, did not make that up. Champions fall. True champions rise again. That’s what makes then true champions. Jaime was gifted. He was not a true champion. There is no shame in that. We humans are inherently imperfect.
sharePerhaps my qualms stem from the underlying belief, or perhaps want, that Jaime was indeed a true champion. I wanted Jaime to truly rise above his circumstances and regain control. Going against the grain, facing adversity, and becoming once again what everyone claimed he was.
Would that have been cliche? I don't think so, especially not within the panorama of the show, where everything is on the fridge.
If we consider the game of thrones, I don't mind that Jaime is dead. My concern ultimately stems from the fact that Jaime was playing at a disadvantage without a hand, especially when an individual was given a skill that "made" them, and then had it removed.
None of the other characters in GoT had any skill removed from them.
Dany still has her dragons. Jon still has his bloodline, Tyrion has his intelligence. Varys has his wits. Cersei has the throne. Bran became a 3-eyed raven.
Jaime had an important element removed from him that may have enabled him to compete in the game, but never had it replaced with anything.
His character was completely reduced to the title of the thread, and it made it very uninteresting to watch. You have all of these characters in GoT that represent different chess pieces and they can move in various directions, so there is some unexpectedness to them. Then you have Jaime, who can only move like a pawn. He could either go two spaces forward (fight), or he could go one space forward (run). That's what we see in the show ever since season 3.
Thank you for the discussion.
Yes, Fan, I agree that Jaime’s plight is sad. I would like to see The Lion re-emerge. I am sad if you could not see the scene where he fought to save Brienne in The Long Night episode, because it was rousing and it showed that Jaime indeed has courage, for those he lives if not for himself. I also admire the actor for playing the character as written, and not slyly trying to infuse him with traits that are traditionally admirable. That choice makes Jaime’s few moments of true heroism—defending Brianne (two times: the bear, and the Walkers), and reuniting with Cersei— more compelling.
I’ve enjoyed it as well. Why can’t the entirety of MC be like this?
My problem is when Bronn got cheeky with Jaime after he smacked Tyrion on his nose & Jaime stood up & Bronn says "Not on your best day, you one handed fuck!" Uh YES! For sure on Jaimes best day he could hand you your balls in a goblet sellsword. Bronn was NEVER a match for Jaime with all his faculties in order. Who is he kidding?
shareYes, that line seemed out of place, as if the writers forgot who Jaime was.
shareI don’t think "on your best day" referred to the time when Jamie still had two hands, but rather to the best day he NOW can have. That’s why the writers added the "one handed fuck" bit.
share"Died saving the Queen."
What does that even mean?