MovieChat Forums > Game of Thrones (2011) Discussion > what sucks about Littlefinger dying

what sucks about Littlefinger dying

posted 7 years ago by ADBruno1985 (3304)
25 replies | jump to latest

We'll never hear his motives from the horse's mouth. Granted, I can't imagine a scenario where we ever would've. There's no one I'd trust him to be fully honest with, and a scene where he was just chatting to himself would be hard to conceive a reason for, and come off weird. And it's fitting of course that his mysteries die with him. But still. I wish we could've found out some way whether he genuinely cared for Sansa, or if she really was a tool. I assume somewhere in the middle. He cared for her, but only to a certain point, and would've tossed her away if it benefited him. If you care for someone, you don't go to such lengths to sow discord between them and their siblings.

[–] MadamShogun (232) 7 years ago

like you said it was probably somewhere in the middle.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (71706) 7 years ago

I feel he wanted to better his low-noble position by using everyone in his path without thought or care for their well being
Maybe he wanted the throne...but mostly he loved 'The Game' and couldnt care less for people...the scheming was his drug
He 'sold' Sansa to a lunatic who abused her no end and didnt seem to really care...Littlefinger was a one-way little shit
He was also a really fun villain
Gonna miss him!

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

I don't think he loved Sansa or her mother, I don't believe he was capable of love. But he did want to "own" them in turn, and was willing to go to a lot of trouble to do so. Putting Sansa and Arya (and Jon and Sansa) at each other's throats was part of that, he wanted to isolate Sansa and make her believe that he was her only friend. He must have wanted her a lot, to put off heading south and taking over the Riverlands during the current power vaccum!

But no, we'll never know, there will be no confession and no secret diary for Sansa to find. She'll have to spend the rest of her life wondering if she killed the only man on Earth who ever loved her.

[–] lilmac48 (260) 7 years ago

I think his ultimate goal was to become king and sit on the iron throne. He told her that when they talked under the red tree. He also said the houses of the north wanted a true Stark heir to become their leader of the north. Whether he really wanted her as queen to his king, I think was another manipulation. If the north made her queen he wanted her to align the north with him.

[–] fc31 (4561) 7 years ago

I think he wanted Sansa to rule the north then he could marry Sansa and rule in her name. To be honest why else would he stay in the north? So he tried to separate Sansa from her support structure (her brother and sister), isolate Sansa and gain her trust, I think that was his play.

Without Daenerys Targaryen and night king he would have eventually accumulate enough power to take the throne. Of course his plan would not work at all facing dragons or army of undead. Scheming could only go so far.

[–] Nosduj (141) 7 years ago

He spoke his motives plainly in S1.

[–] GunWillTravel (198) 7 years ago

Exactly.

And really, what we need in general is less direct exposition, and more viewer engagement by deduction and interpretation.

[–] Jennie_Portrait (804) 7 years ago

I agree there were holes that will never be filled. In the scene last season with Littlefinger and Sansa in the crypt, I got the distinct impression that Littlefinger knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar. But I couldn't figure how he could have known-- unless he was in communication with the maesters at the Citadel. That is not much of a reach I suppose.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

He could have found out through the Sept of Baylor, and there had to have been servants at the "Tower of Joy". So it's likely that many people in the southlands knew that Lyanna and Rhegar were in love, that a smaller number knew about the pregnancy, but very few knew about the marriage - maybe just the high septon. Those people wouldn't talk, but I bet Varys found out anyway, maybe Littlefinger would as well.

But does anyone in the southlands know there was a living child, and what became of the child? If someone like Varys found out about the marriage, and known that Ned Stark was the last living person out of the "Tower of Joy", he might have wondered where Ned's mysterious bastard really came from. Of course once that mysterious bastard joined the Night's Watch he'd no longer be of political interest, or so Littlefinger or Varys would assume. I wonder if Varys is going to join in the upcoming Big Reveal?

[–] Alerra (244) 6 years ago

There was at least one other woman (a midwife? a maid?) in the room with Lyanna when Ned walked in. And Howland Reed was there, waiting outside, don't forget. And then, there's the fact that there were members of the KING'S GUARD outside that Ned and Howland had to kill. The Dornish locals would probably have wondered why Raegar had members of his personal body guard hanging outside some random tower in the middle of nowhere. They wouldn't have been there if Lyanna had been only Raegar's mistress. And they're the king's guard, not the consort's, so once word came re: the Trident, they may not have stayed just for Lyanna, regardless of the marriage. Someone may have talked. (Probably to Varys -- peasant nobodies are his type of informers.)

Which makes me wonder what Jaime might know. He was a member of the King's Guard, too, after all. He might have said something to Littlefinger, even if it was a "You know, Raegar must have really had something for Lyanna Stark for him to have sent some of his Guard to protect her." And from there, Littlefinger may have been sneaky enough to have figured a few things out.

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

I presume all of those people would assume that Lyanna was Rhegar's mistress and giving birth to their bastard, and if that had become widely known it wouldn't have changed Jon's status much except to put him on Joffrey and Cersei's hit list.

The marriage was the only thing there that was important, and as far as we know the only people who knew were Rhegar, Lyanna, and the High Septon. It's possible that Rhegar told Arthur Dayne or some other confidant, it's possible Lyanna told a friend or a servant if not her family. I mean she was stuck there for months while Rhegar went off to fight and lose a war, plenty of time to worry about bearing a legitimate heir to the throne who had no way to claim his birthright. I mean some of us fans have been worrying about it for that long, and we're not directly involved.

[–] Alerra (244) 6 years ago

No, I don't think the locals would have assumed a marriage. But they may have been curious. Why the King's Guard if she's just a mistress? And why would the King's Guard then STAY for a mistress after the Trident?

I think there might just be enough 2+2+2+2 going on for Varys or Littlefinger to get 8 if either of them were curious enough to look. Why the King's Guard for the mistress of a dead prince? Where and when did Ned, the most honorable man alive, sire a bastard (cue Stannis)? Why does said bastard look nothing like Ned (cue Beric)? Where was the High Septon on such-and-such-a-date?

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

As for what the locals thought the Kingsguard were doing there... if I lived near the Tower of Joy, and thought Dayne & Co. had in any way chosen to be there and weren't just following orders from a mad king or a dead crown prince as they'd been doing for so long, I'd assume they were either trying to spend time away from the mad king or to avoid fighting on the wrong side of the war.

A valid-yet-totally-secret marriage and a legitimate heir would be about #998 on my list of wild guesses, if it was on the list at all.

[–] Alerra (244) 6 years ago

We're veering off topic. Let's go back to some of the first questions. Does anyone in the southlands know about the living child? YES. There was a woman in the room with Lyanna, holding the baby, when Ned walks in. Would she have known about the marriage? Maybe. Lyanna could have said something to her, or she could have overheard Lyanna whisper, "His name is Aegon Targareon" and wonder why it wasn't Sand. Or it's possible she knows nothing of a secret marriage and assumes Lyanna was simply Rhaegar's mistress. BUT, she most certainly knows about Jon's existence (I'm calling him Jon for now).

Where did Ned's mysterious bastard come from? This is a question that has been brought up in previous seasons. Stannis comments on this when he's at Castle Black, saying that Ned was too honorable -- he didn't seem the type to betray his marriage vows. Others in Westeros may have commented on this as well.

Neither of those things are a smoking gun pointing anywhere. BUT, for someone like Varys or Littlefinger, there might just be enough suspicion for one of them to start looking a little closer. If either of them had found out that Lyanna had a child, and that coincidentally, right after Lyanna dies, her brother, the most honorable man in Westeros, shows up with a baby, claiming it's his bastard? Again, it might just be enough for one of them to have started adding up the hints.

Or it might not. For all we know, Varys knows nothing about it.

[–] TexasJack (12515) 6 years ago

Good points all. For people like Varys and LF, who are both information hubs fed by a network of spies, it certainly is possible that they could have put it all together.

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

Excellent points.

The one thing I wanted to add was that for a man for a great house to honor to his marriage vows seems to have been extremely unusual, so much so that Varys or Littlefinger wouldn't expect it of any nobleman. Remember Ned was an unknown quantity at that point, a second son from the hinterlands who had come into one of the seven kingdoms just as Robert's Rebellion was working up. It would have taken some years for anyone to realize that Ned wasn't like others of his class, and wouldn't be fathering bastards during his honeymoon (more or less).

[–] Benjobuff (406) 7 years ago

In his last conversation with Sansa the day before his execution, she was giving him a chance to not be a selfish prick. But he clearly wanted Sansa to kill arya. And probably he would have next tried to set up bran somehow. His defense being that he gave the boy a dagger.

[–] Xcalat3 (3701) 7 years ago

I doubt being "honest" during that talk with Sansa would do much to change her mind but I think that was the final nail in is coffin.

[–] Benjobuff (406) 7 years ago

Well I wonder if he had counseled Sansa during that talk to make amends with arya, and truly shown that he had her and her family's, and the norths, best interests at heart, if she would have granted him pardon in light that he had truly changed from who he used to be. That conversation proved that he did not come to winterfell with the knights of the vale out of loyalty to house stark, but rather he still viewed them all as pawns in his game. Essentially negating anything "good" he ever did for anyone and thus clearing Sansa's conscience in eliminating him at that time.

So yeah being honest about being evil doesn't help. But she gave him a chance to see who he really was at that moment in time. Not who he was when he plotted against Ned. Turns out he was the same guy so yeah being honest wouldn't have helped. But she gave him a chance at least

[–] Xcalat3 (3701) 7 years ago

yeah that would be completely out of character and I'm sure Sansa would see through his lies (she learned a lot from him and is smarter than most people give her credit for)

[–] Benjobuff (406) 7 years ago

I think if he had told Sansa to be lenient with arya, Sansa would have been lenient with him. That was why she had that conversation. She was trying to sniff out his intentions, to justify his execution, as being for the good of the realm, and not simply revenge for Ned. Could there have been some other reason Baelish was toying with them? It was such a devious and stupid move Sansa had to know. But it Turns out not. And Suggesting Sansa execute arya effectively extinguished any usefulness he had left to their cause. And any remaining duty she felt to baelish.

[–] JoeCinema (89) 7 years ago

He said plainly that he wants "everything there is" and did every move to be on the Iron Throne with Sansa at his side. He couldn't have been more clear.

[–] R_Kane (15828) 6 years ago

Nothing sucks. That "I told you not to trust me human snake is fucking DEAD!"