Is it possible that Jon (Show) and Griff (book) have been combined? - Game of Thrones (2011) Discussion

[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

Any book readers out there want to discuss?

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It's a great question...but at this point who the fuck knows...kinda hope not, atleast from the perspective of the book story...gotta believe Jon snow lives. The show has fucked up so many story lines that guessing is futile...all I hope for is that the fat man actually finishes this shit so questions like this will have definite answers...wait and see....

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

Yes you are right the books and show have deviated from each other so much it is hard to speculate. I mean I kinda of hope this is not the case because Jon is one of the better characters, book wise at least (mixed feelings about his show version) and his story is so incomplete if he dies now.

The big reason that I had this thought was because the names of Griff and show Jon are now the same.

Thanks for discussing.

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[–] TexasJack (12515) 7 years ago

I can't see the showrunners making such a radical departure from GRRM's story, so I believe Book Jon will not stay dead either and that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I think Young Griff/Aegon is either a fraud, will be killed off or will be left out of the Iron Throne sweepstakes because the annulment of Rhaegar and Elia's marriage makes him a bastard.

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[–] chizmank (7) 7 years ago

We already know that the author planned for Jon to be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and that is why he cannot stay dead in the books, otherwise why would he add a twist like that to the story? He let D&D create the show only after they successfully guessed who Jon's parents were.

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[–] TexasJack (12515) 7 years ago

I didn't know that bit about them guessing. Very cool.

Here is the full interview for anyone who may be interested:

http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-season-3-4-george-r-r-martin-interview/

I thought this quote from GRRM was pretty funny:

At the premiere, I found myself talking to three very nice actors, at one point, who were very pleasant, and I was having a great time talking with them and drinking with them, and then I suddenly realized that I had killed all three of them, at various points in the series, and that they would all shortly be unemployed actors. And I had a moment of horrible guilt, but it’s already done. It was particularly sad when one of them said, “Please don’t kill my character,” and she’s already dead.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

None of that means he can't stay dead. Just because Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna does not mean he has to be resurrected. if the books were going for gritty realism in a fantasy realm than a character dying without ever learning the truth about who they were is fitting. I hope it is not the case because I want to see how the character would react in the books to learning his parentage.

Even if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna in the books does not mean by default he cannot stay dead.

I do not think it is likely he will because at this point too much has been invested into his character for him to die in such a way and he is really the only one that is actually doing anything about the night king threat. But just because the show gave Jon the name Aegon I really think their stories are being combined in some way. I really doubt that will be his name in the books even if everything else is the same.

thanks.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

I think this is possible too, more likely as well. But the fact the show gave Jon the name Aegon Targaryen makes me think they are going to be combining their stories somehow.

Thanks

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[–] ADBruno1985 (3304) 7 years ago

I think "combination" might be a strong word.

If they're not being included in the show, we can assume Griff (along with other characters seemingly tangential to him, like Jon Connington and Arianne Martell) isn't terribly important. So I expect he'll either be exposed as a fraud, or die, or both, fairly soon in the books. Because introducing him so late doesn't leave much time to flesh out the character. Then again, it may be so that we don't know him enough to hate him.

I think it likelier they just did away with an unimportant character, and are maybe giving a few qualities/storypoints/characteristics (name?) to Jon.

But I think Jon on his own is still too important to really be viewed as "combined" with another. Of course we'll see if/when Book 6 comes out. Maybe Jon will stay dead, and Aegon will hook up with Dany, who knows.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

You might, are probably, right. I too am mostly suspecting that only a few expects of the characters or their stories will be 'shared' for a better word. I am not sure to what degree though.

I am not sure just how unimportant Griff and the Martell's are so much that the show felt they could get rid of them without much thought. The show at this point, while I like it, does not have anywhere near the depth of the books; so I am much more interested in what happens in the books and how it plays out.

thanks for your thoughts.

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

No, Young Griff was one of those things that a good editor should have taken out of the books, and the show's writers cut. Sure, GRRM is having fun dragging Perkin Warbeck out of history, but in doing so he created a massive plot hole.

If Illyrio Mopatis knows the true male heir to the throne is alive and is backing him, why does he give the previous dragon eggs to Danerys back in season 1??? Shouldn't they go to the rightful king, not the person who was 3rd in line for the Targaryan succession at that point?

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

True, unless there is something significant the character is going to do and was needed; which means removing his story will create its own plot hole. I have a feeling that by combining him with Jon; if that is the case, it is going to create a huge amount of inconsistencies in the show.

Because the Dragon eggs were not considered to have any practical worth. They were looked at as nothing more that expensive artifacts. I am sure that Illyrio Mopatis and Varys at that time were keeping there options open and trying to keep in good with any potential Targaryen. Number 1 choice was Young Griff, #2 was Viserys until he died and they also wanted to keep Dany close (maybe to even use Drogo for her Targaryen relatives). These people weren't dumb and I can't see them as putting all their money on one horse. Know what I mean?

Thanks.

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

I can't see that Young Griff/Perkin Warbeck could ever contribute anything to the plot, GRRM seemed to be sticking pretty closely to the historical precedent and left Young Griff following in Warbeck's footsteps - staging an invasion that started small, never got big, and end in Warbeck being hanged. It was one of those things that GRRM has been throwing into the last two books, the ones that get me yelling "HE'S LOST THE PLOT"; things that are interesting enough as a story, but which don't and can't advance the plot.

He's just another obstacle between the Prince That Was Promised and the throne, not something that can be fit into the limited number of episodes in a TV show.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

That could be, I was not aware of the Perkin Warbeck relation so you might be right on that. It could be nothing more than filler/obstacle for the actual main characters. It was interesting reading about Perkin Warbeck so thank you for that.

Do you suspect there is something 'off' about Jon's name being Aegon in the show? Do you suspect it will be in the books as well? I really don't see that happening; it would be very odd for there to be another Aegon especially since Rheagar already had 1 son by that name.

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Remember, when Jon was born Prince Rheagar and his elder children were dead. Lyanna gave birth as a grieving widow, and she named her baby after his deceased half-brother, the child whose death would have shattered Rhegar if he'd been alive to know about it. So the existence of two young Aegon Targaryans makes sense, if you think about the timing.

However, having both of them alive would NOT make sense, and would put Jon and Dany in the position of having to eliminate a rival who was a close relative. They couldn't possibly come out of that looking good, so no, Young Griff/Prince Aegon Sr/Perkin Warbeck isn't going to be on TV.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

Did Lyanna know about that already or is that an assumption? I assumed she may have heard about Rheagar but didn't ned go right to the tower of Joy after kings landing was sacked? So would she have already known the first son was dead? Still it does not make that much sense for Lyanna to name her son with a man the same name as his first son by another woman. That is just... odd, and even more so to name him that same name of his son by another woman whom was dead. If she knew Rheagar was dead in that circumstance would not it had made more sense for her to name him after the father, Rheagar?

In regards to them both being alive NOT making sense; it makes perfect sense in generating complex conflict in claiming rights. Having 3 potential rival targaryens claiming the thrown would be just that. But that is more complex than the shows seem to be willing to touch since the end of season 4.

I am not sure if things are going to come out looking good in Martin's books; it won't be so clean and definitive like the show will be I think. But yes you are obviously right Young Griff will not appear on the show. That was never my claim or suspicion. I was asking if parts, perhaps large parts, of Griff's story would be passed on to Jon because they have the same name, in the show at least.

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