So, why would he obtain an annulment if the Targaryans were allowed to take multiple wives? I know they need an excuse to have Jon be legitimate, but it makes Rhagar seem like a jerk as the children he had by Elia would be deemed bastards and were killed for non reason.
shareIt doesn't seem probable or legal that even royalty would be able to annul a marriage to a woman who had borne him two children and whom he'd married before all Westeros with 77 courses and all, but we have no idea what it the laws of Westeros say about annulments. For all we know, the High Septon's word is absolute law in these matters.
All we really know is that the Martells would have taken news of the annulment so badly that they'd have raised their armies and rebelled, that really would have been a mortal insult to their house.
Exactly, even if Elia agreed, the offense the Martells would feel. But why would she agree? What did Rhagars father know of any of this?
shareDo you know the story of Henry the VIII and Catherine of Aragon?
shareVery well, and it's one of the reasons I question whether someone as powerful as a crown prince could have an annulment for the asking. Henry couldn't get an annulment when he wanted one and he spent years trying, and he was the sole ruler of a great nation.
But it was both probable and legal that Henry could get an annulment from someone he'd been married to for 20 years and had a child with and the whole country knew about.
And it wasn't hard for him once he changed the church system in England to one with its leadership within the borders and under his control(that was the hard part).....something the Targaryens already had. Just doesn't seem as unlikely as the first sentence of your post suggests.
Um, it was neither easy nor probable for Henry VIII to get that annulment. He spent years begging the Pope to grant him an annulment or a divorce, he tried every legal dodge and used all the influence available to one of the crowned heads of Europe, and tried over and over for years to cast off his wife with no success. She wouldn't go and the pope refused him every time, and Henry dragged his country out of the Catholic church out of desperation, as his girlfriend was pregnant and time was short. I cannot overemphasize what a drastic, unprecedented move this was - imagine you woke up tomorrow and found out that the president had declared the official state religion is now Zoroasterianism, or Satanism. I'm still amazed Henry wasn't deposed over it.
So GoT is largely inspired by that time period (a couple of generations before, really), but I guess the crowned heads of Westeros have an easier time browbeating their pontiff than the Kings of England.
Because frequently the 2nd wife's kids are 2nd in succession to the first. He must have believed that Jon was the one, therefore he moved the older kids from succession to make room for Jon, it's possible that he may have remarried Elia after the fact. I believe that she was a part of it as well.
shareRheagar had been researching the "Prince Who Was Promised" prophecy, maybe he decided that in order to fulfil some prophecy he had to marry a Stark and make her children the rightful heir to the throne. And he had to divorce his first wife and declare her children illegitimate to make the prophecy come true, and make the Targaryan-Stark the heir to the throne. But of course nobody knew this but the High Septon, apparently Elia Martell didn't know it either as she stayed in King's Landing and raised her children as if nothing had happened, and King Aerys didn't know it either as he didn't know a loaf of bread from a trebuchet at that point.
Which basically means that while Jon may be the legitimate heir to the Targaryan Dynasty, nobody in Westeros is going to believe it but Sam.
That's assuming that Sam was paying attention, which it seems he wasn't when Gilly was reciting the passage. It feels like that was thrown in there just to give the audience a little bit of information. I have doubts that Gilly is going to remember what she read there.
shareBran would know, and if he told Sam about Jon's parentage, either he or Gilly would probably recall reading about Rhaegar and the annulment. Hopefully they brought those records with them. Gilly likes trivia, so she might have brought it to keep her occupied while they are on the road.
shareBran can't have told Sam about Jon's parentage, Sam has been away at Oldtown since Bran came back from the beyond the Wall. So Sam has no idea that Rhegar's marital issues have anything to do with the North, and Bran can't have been sending letters to Sam. Why would he write a man he only met once years ago?
And regarding the secret annulment and inheritance.. if Rhegar annulled his first marriage that means the children of the first marriage would be considered illegitimate and unable to inherit the Iron Throne. That would have been a HUGE big hairy deal if anyone knew about it, cause for the Martells to declare war on the Targaryans for removing their kin from the line of succession. Quite frankly, getting a secret annulment and making a secret second marriage and not telling anyone about either was a very strange thing to do, because nobody would have a clue that the resulting child was the legal heir to the throne. Why risk starting a war with the Martells, why start an actual war with the Starks and Baratheons, if nobody knew that it was to make a new heir to the Iron Throne?
I still say it's to do with the prophecies Rhegar was researching, because none of his actions make sense from any other POV.
I meant if he were to tell Sam some time in the near future. We've seen it before when Stannis told him about the dragon glass and Sam didn't really think about it much until he saw the map. Sam is either going to his home or back to The Wall, maybe stopping at Winterfell if he thinks Jon may be there. And if he goes to Winterfell, Jon probably won't be there but Bran will. Bran has seen all 6 seasons on instant blu-ray, including the extra content, so he knows Jon trusts Sam. If Bran can't go find Jon himself and Jon is not coming to him, Sam would probably be the best alternative to relay the message.
shareThe dragons believe it. That may be all he needs.
shareActually, the only way Jon is ever going to convince the massed Lords of Westeros that he's a Targaryan and the true heir to the throne is if Danerys marries Jon and makes him king and calls all the lords of Westeros together to announce that he's her cousin as well as her husband and a Targaryan and everyone had damn well better bend the knee to them both.
And does it with all three dragons present and obeying orders.
I think the idea is he was so in love with Lyanna he didn't want to be with anyone but her. Also she was not Targaryan, she was a Stark, it would be dishonor to her to publicly be a second wife no one did that in Westeros, and I'm sure she wouldn't want too either.. it was dishonor already that she fell in love with another woman's husband too, and betrayed a man she was promised to- Robert, but that's why they ran away together in secret. Anyways I love how they slipped that in tonight.
shareI don't think they loved eachother, respected eachother, fond eachother, but not in love. They had a common goal.
sharewhy do you think that? All reports suggest they fall in love and ran away together... from what I've heard.. but i don't know all the history so I'd like to hear more :)
shareI don't know? It is not outright saud that she loved him. She may have been flattered by him, but they only could have met a couple of times before they ran off.
shareMy 'theory' is that Elia was in on this with Rhagar and DarkStar. When it became obvious that she could not provide the Prince Who Was Promised Rhagar must have questioned what was being done wrong. As the Series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire" and Rhagar himself is the fire and by all accounts, it appears that Elia would be as well, none of their offspring could be the chosen one. But after seeing Lyanna at the joust he probably realized that she was missing element. I believe that they slowly brought her into the fold and sold her on their beliefs. However, to truly clear an easier path the child would have to be legitimate, and yes being a 2nd wife would do it. However, in almost all cases a 2nd wife's child/children are in succession after the first. An issue, if this baby is destined to lead. Annulling the marriage removes the siblings from succession and opens the path. I think he respected and maybe even loved Elia, and if she was a part of this then he would have told her. In fact, he would have had to, he and Lyanna would have to be married at the time of conceiving so that there are no doubts. That, coupled with the 9 months for baby time would leave us a fair bit of time that they were married and Elia said nothing. If she felt slighted it would have been known, as nothing was said she must have agreed with it. I believe in some of the supplemental stories from series that Rhagar was slowly trying to displace his nutty father if this had been successful and he had publicly let it be known what he had done and both women agreed with it publicly, as pissed as their families may have been, nothing could have been done. Also, had this plan worked and Rhagar not killed who is to say that he wouldn't have remarried Elia afterward, as a 2nd wife.
shareI know, when Gilly ask's about annulment I was already trying to work out its relevancy. I thought she was going to ask him about them getting married..as a nights watchman and maester in training, why is Gilly and little Sam allowed to stay there?
shareStarkgaryen FTW
shareThe only reason I can think of for getting an annulment rather than taking a second wife is that if he annulled his first marriage, the children from that marriage would be official illegitimate and the child of the second marriage would be the heir. Of course the first wife would fight like hell to protect her children's inheritance and so would her relatives, and would probably raise the Dornish armies if she'd known what her husband was up to, and the second wife's family DID raise their armies and rebel because they didn't know she'd been lawfully wed rather than kidnapped or running off with a married man.
Rhegar's actions are very very strange. He bred a secret legitimate heir, one who'd never in a million years be able to claim the throne. Either the man was trying to fulfil that prophecy he'd been researching, or he was taking orders from his father the Mad King.
The last Targaryan to take multiple wives and get away with it was hundred of years before so for him to legitimise Lyanna's offspring he'd have to publicly put Elia aside.
Though the kids by Elia were known to be his through lawful marriage. So Rhagar probably would have ensured they would still be considered legitimate even with the marriage annulled.
Though even though we now know Jon is a legitimate heir to Iron throne, will anyone believe it? Or would it create more problems than it solves in terms of politics.
The proof so far would be Howland Reed's word and Bran backing it but the rumour mill in the south could say that both loyal to the Stark house. Who people could say have legitimate grounds to hate the Targeryan's so to destabilise Dany and wishing to put one of there's on the throne. Or they could say they are spreading a rumour for twisted reasons to weaken Jon's reign as King in the North as Bran is the true son of Ned Stark and Jon isn't. But Jon was declared King in the North due in part to being NED Stark's boy.
And who discovered the info in the citadel - Sam Tarly. Who happened to be copying the diaries and scrolls of the man who happened to carry out the annulment and may show that his friend has a stronger claim to the Iron throne than the woman who killed his dad and brother. If this evidence is used who is to say that a maester or two won't question if Sam forged the evidence.
"kids by Elia were known to be his through lawful marriage"
But annulment is different from divorce. It means the marriage was void ab initio, that is, as if it never existed. The legal effect would be to make the marriage NON-lawful, and the children from the first marriage would become bastards. Thus the children from the second marriage would be in direct line to succeed the throne.
Sure an annulment is different from a divorce.
But as children of the crown prince from a noble woman whose honour can't be brought into reproach from a very powerful province Rhagear would have no issue in getting a degree to say his children by Elia were still legitimate and Elia should be taken care of. Rhagar if he became Prince Regent while his father was insane probably could have written it himself.
Why would he do it - He was going on about the dragon must have three heads with regards to his kids. If the number of children was all that matter then he wouldn't have had to marry Lyanna. Just getting her pregnant and recognising Jon as his bastard would have been enough. But he did he married Lyanna and put aside Elia. But still all three of his children would have to be legitimate for Rhager's vision to take hold.
Also if the war had went the other way with Rhagar having lived as had both Elia and Lyanna and Elia's children had been taken out of the succession and Elia not been at least treated with some respect in the matter of the annullment; it wouldn't have be hard to imagine Rhagar would have faced a second war from Dorne after sorting Robert out. Because they may not have a problem with bastards in Dorne but they damn well would have had a problem with fighting for the Prince just to find out he has not only kicked out their Princess but told everyone her children get nothing.
Maybe Rhagar discovered the children from his first marriage were fathered by another man? Maybe Elia had an affair(s)? Just guessing.
I doubt his first kids would be dubbed bastards as he was married when he had them, it's a real gray area.
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