littlefinger is providing a massive force in this war Jon is waging. He saved Sansa from KL and saved Jon from Ramsey's army. Jon doesn't know littlefinger betrayed Ned. I don't understand why the Starks treat littlefinger so badly. He just crushes on redheads
shareSansa believes Littlefinger knew that Ramsay was a psycho and set up their marriage anyway. I assume Sansa told Jon as much.
shareOh yeah. Why did he give Sansa to Ramsey?
shareThat's the question ... unless his love for the Stark women is really BS and he really just hates them. Hate is more believable from LF ... and why do they call him Littlefinger again ... did they ever explain that?
shareim pretty sure the political reasons were explained in the series, although i dont remember the reasons either. also lf didnt know ramsay is insane, he seemed to be a nice guy first.
shareDoesn't he know LF was the reason Ned was killed? Also what he did to Sansa. Plus he knows he is not to be trusted.
I don't like the foreshadowing though. Remember Ned got physical with LF and that led to his betrayal. Now Jon placed hands on LF and that could turn him against him even further.
Jon still doesn't know. But Varys probably knows as he was present when it happened. And in the next episode Jon will meet with Varys. It would be fun if Varys spills the beans, wouldn't it?
shareMe too. The foreshadowing is making me nervous too.
shareI think it was to help Roose Bolton secure his hold on the North by marrying his son to who they believed was the last living Stark.
shareI think he's just being protective over Sansa. Littlefinger admitted to "loving" Sansa, but Jon probably knows how much of a slimeball Littlefinger is and doesn't want Sansa to be raped again.
shareI'm sure Sansa explained to Jon her entire ordeal and ending with how Littlefinger married her off to that psycho. Isn't that enough of a reason for him to hate Littlefinger.
shareYeah, I'm sure that Jon believes that Littlefinger has ulterior motives. It just doesn't make sense for Littlefinger to have married Sansa to Ramsey, and then turn around and lead his army to victory against the Boltons. They're very flip-floppy, and safe, decisions that disregarded Sansa's safety - She was lucky to have gotten out of the ordeal alive - and instantly puts his intentions into question.
I don't think Jon has Littlefinger completely figured out, but I'm sure that he feels that his loyalties are incredibly questionable, and probably temporary. What's funny is that Littlefinger had the gal to expect a "thank you", and Jon was right not to give it to him.
To me I think Jon realized that Littlefinger had a hand (actually a big hand) in betraying Ned, and that Jon was not going to fall for Petyr's bag of tricks and made sure it was on record that Petyr can't try stuff with Jon.
After all, it was Petyr and Lysa that set the events of Game of Thrones into motion in the first place with the lie about the Lannisters killing former Hand of the King, Jon Arryn.
But how would Jon have known that? Did Sansa even know?
shareI imagine since Catelyn seemed to know in Season 2 when Petyr shows up in the Stormlands around that time, some of the children might know as well. Not 100% sure though. Catelyn seemed to indicate that Ned trusted Petyr very much so. She was furious at him.
shareShe couldn't have known. While in Kings Landing she seemed to regard him as a friend and trusted him, never indicating that he was involved in Ned's death or betrayal. I think Catelyn feels he is traitor simply because of his position and not doing anything to help Ned. When Littlefinger betrayed Ned there were only so many people in throne room to actually witness it. I do not believe anyone outside of that knows what really went down.
shareI don't think it's possible for anyone to know that Littlefinger was the one who betrayed Ned. The only ones who knew that, aside from Littlefinger himself, were Ned Stark and Janos Slynt, both of whom are dead.
shareWhat about Varys? He was present when it happened and later he had conversations with Ned in the dungeon. Either Ned or his spies could've told him what was going on.
shareHmm. It's possible, come to think of it. Varys seems to know everything. But he also keeps things close to the chest as well; I'm not sure he would reveal that information to anyone if he didn't see any good that would come of it.
I don't think Ned would have told him, though. Ned never really trusted Varys, and after Littlefinger betrayed him, Ned would have become even less trusting. I think Varys and Ned only talked once after Littlefinger's betrayal, and it was that brief conversation in the dungeon. So if Varys does know, he would know it from spies.
What I don't get is Jon having some sense of how bad Littlefinger is, and then just letting him KNOW this, attacking him, and then....letting him live. When you let an enemy like LF know that you consider him one, and that you're willing to kill him, you better just do it because you just know that LF is going to set up something nasty for Jon. The Stark family is very brave and noble, but they don't seem to be that big on brains or planning.
shareOMG, I so agree! I'm a bog fan or both Ned and Jon but they can be so frustrating to root for!
shareI don't even understand why Littlefinger is still alive at this point.
Sansa knows he can't be trusted, Jon hates him and I don't believe for one second that the knights of the Vale would care if he died. To them, he's just a nobody from King's Landing's court who married their Queen and took power after she died mysteriously.
I'm annoyed because we all know what's going to happen now. During Jon's absence, he will manipulate Sansa again and she will let him do it as usual. I wish we could get past that after 6 seasons.
I don't think it will go down like that, but that's what they definitely want the audience to believe. She knows his plans and what he wants, and as he said in the past, that's all you need to know about someone to manipulate them.
Also Robin is very close to Littlefinger and if anything happened to him, he could order the knights to capture Sansa and make her fly.
What I don't get is why he's being so aggressive toward him. It's one thing to dislike him, but he still has to deal with him because he controls the Vale. One scene Jon is talking about his need for allies, the next scene he almost kills the guy who controls one of the seven kingdoms, who just saved Jon's ass and helped him win Winterfell. If he doesn't like him or trust him, that's understandable, particularly given what he just said about Sansa and how he'd married her to Ramsay, but he still shouldn't just alienate him and make him into an enemy. Jon needs to learn a thing or two about politics or he's gonna go the way of Robb.
shareI'm sure Sansa explained in detail exactly how Littlefinger's convinced her to marry the people who murdered their family & how she had to endure being repeatedly raped and brutalized by Ramsay & barely escaped with her life. He has every reason to be hostile towards him and he doesn't play games like Littlefinger and always up front about how he really feels which could be argued may not be wise with someone like Littlefinger who always holds his cards close to his chest.
shareLike I said, it's understandable not to like the guy. I'm not saying Littlefinger's a good guy or that Jon should kiss his butt. But Jon needs more self-control and political sense, he needs to learn from the mistakes Ned and Robb made, he needs to not let passion rule over sense, because he's starting to go right down that road. And I stand by what I said about it being ridiculous that Jon talks about the desperate need for allies one minute, and then alienates and physically assaults a willing and powerful ally the very next scene. There has to be some kind of middle ground here.
shareSigh. I wish Jon controlled himself. Whether he liked or disliked Littlefinger, he needs to be more tactful. Actually his actions reminded me much of Ned Stark, Jon really needs more cunning characters on his side because he and Ned are the least political people on the show. And in politics, you need to learn to play the game or drown.
I think like Ned, Jon saw LF as someone inherently dishonest and would be the first to betrayal given the opportunity. LF probably stands gainst the very things Starks are known for, and with anything they do or feel, they are upfront. Hiding in shadows, playing your cards secretly, faking your smiles are dishonorable things to people like Jon or Ned.
PS. IDK if LF is really inherently dishonest, just that that may be how he is perceived.