MovieChat Forums > Shelter (2009) Discussion > No references to gay culture

No references to gay culture

posted 14 years ago by gbarriere
25 replies | jump to latest

One of the things I found very interesting about this film was the lack of any references to gay culture. As a 47 year old gay man who came out in my late teens long before the internet, my relationship to gay culture was a very important part of my identity. By gay culture, I mean all the ways we preformed our visibility amongst ourselves and to the outside world, including bars, bathhouses, dance music, erotic art, pride parades, fashion, house and dinner parties, ect.

The only real references to the gay culture outside the relationship was Zach being cruised in the parking lot at the surfing beach and I guess Shaun's reference to Barcelona, a gay travel hotspot. Jeannie also references the gay marriage debate with her reference to their "big gay wedding". The lack of any more significant references reminded me of Brokeback Mountain, with the only reference in that film being to the hustlers in Mexico.

The lack of gay culture references made sense in Brockback but here was a little more interesting. While it could be a reflection of how that separate or different gay culture is no longer as necessary or central to being gay, the film is still about coming out in a homophobic world and dealing with internalized homophobia - and historically gay culture provided ways to deal with all that although not always in the healthyist of ways. It may be precisely because Zach's process of coming out happened within the insular world of their relationship that Zach had such a difficult reaction when he was forced to deal with the consequences of the inevitable relevation of his sexual identity to those outside that relationship - Gabe, Jeannie and Tori. Zach really had no one to turn to except Shaun and of course Shaun represented the very thing he was struggling with - opening up about his sexual identity.

I also found that it was interesting that it was straight characters that ended up supporting Zach with that struggle - Zach in the dinner and most importantly Tori at the location overlooking the ocean.

I would like to hear what other readers, especially those in their twenties thought of his aspect of the film.

Garth

[–] dongerdo 14 years ago

While I am in my twenties, I can obviously only speak for myself. But for my liking, I found it refreshing to see this movie not to be centered around the gay culture for once.

The focus on the gay scene in a lot of gay themed movies (actually in all of the US made I've seen so far - the french movies are a little more diverse) doesn't bother me at all, but I think it is good to show something 'different' as well. And if it is just for the sake of diversity, that's fine by me.

While I do know a lot of people, who center their lives around the gay culture, in continental Europe at least, I get more and more the impression that a lot of people are very happy to be able to live in exactly such a unassuming relationship (A quote from a friend: "We've got the right to be just as boring as our straight neighbours!!"). In the life of these couples, neither bathhouses nor dance music play any central role at all.

In my opinion, in quite a few areas in this world, we reached a state where a lot of the society simply doesn't care about anybody’s sexuality anymore, so it's only natural to not 'confine' yourself to the limits of the scene.

While it could be a reflection of how that separate or different gay culture is no longer as necessary or central to being gay, the film is still about coming out in a homophobic world and dealing with internalized homophobia - and historically gay culture provided ways to deal with all that although not always in the healthyist of ways.

The problem is, the historical ways (can I even dare to call it traditional...) gay culture was helping struggling people with their identity are probably not applicable to todays culture anymore.

I am to young, but whenever people who made the first hand experience say something about the gay culture of the 70s/80s or even early 90s, a certain impression of strong solidarity inside of the community was tangible. These days, I can't find anything even remotely resembling that. May it be because of legislative changes in the last decades, may it be for changes in the society about the perception of gay men; but parts of the gay culture got ignorant and superficial beyond belief. A feeling of 'coming home', as described by some people, is not very likely in such an environment.

Which brings us to something else. You said

I also found that it was interesting that it was straight characters that ended up supporting Zach with that struggle - Zach in the dinner and most importantly Tori at the location overlooking the ocean.

and this is probably one of the most central points why gay culture is probably not AS important anymore.

A lot of people, and especially gay men, tend to focus a little bit on the negative events happening all over the world. This, in itself, is a good thing because an awful lot of work still has to be done and very cruel things still happen all around the world. But one tends to forget about the good developments in recent years: less and less people are hassled by their peers/colleagues/etc when they come out. As a result, more and more people do get their strongest support from their straight friends. My experience was that way and I don't really regret to be exposed to todays gay culture with support of people who really know me and not 'only' know what I'm going through.

One last argument to conclude this lengthy piece - movies like this (and I know this is frowned upon by a lot of people) are even viable choices to watch with your grandpartens if you want. Movies centering about the more sexual aspects of gay culture wouldn't be my first choice for that one. (An other movie like that would be Ang Lees Wedding Banquet)
I really think it is important that movie choices like that exist - they show todays reality just as well as more community-centric examples are doing it for years.

I know my points are highly debatable - but still I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

[–] ColeMercury 14 years ago

I think if there had been references to "gay culture", it would have been a completely different film. And nowhere near as good, at that.

[–] SirFrancisBeaverhausen 14 years ago

That was one of the things I most liked about SHELTER. It is about two normal people who happen to be gay--not two GAY PEOPLE in flashing neon lights. None of the standard issue "fabulous" night life, no drag queens, bath houses or f@g hags. I find that affirming because that is how I view myself--as just a regular person. When it comes down to it people are people(song cue)and we have much more in common than we have differences no matter our sexual orientation. BTW I'm about the same age as the o.p.

Ya see---you ain't such a dog as you think you are!

[–] vanglak 14 years ago

I think that's why this movie is popular. It draws, not just gay people, but also straight, bi, surfers, artists of all kinds. Most of my friends aren't comfortable watching films that involve a lot of drags and bs. (FOR EXAMPLE, LATTER DAYS, PRISCILLA, ANOTHER GAY MOVIE) I'm happy to see a film, finally that doesnt have child-bashing following a "Mom, I'm gay" going on. the same old stuff. It's unsaid, yet the message is obvious to everyone about the two lovers.

No offense to people who act the opposite sex but I like it when someone is being themselves and it's unnecessary to 'show off' who you are. I am a lesbian myself and guess what- I am not attracted to butch kinds. It's a contradiction to me because I'm drawn to curves, smooth legs, hips, breasts. Butchs do what? THEY HIDE THEIR FORM! No thanks. There is a sex role in our genes. Just be yourself. So to sum it up, the guys in the movies executed very well in terms of being themselves from the beginning to the end.

Another reason why this movie is popular is because the issue of adoption and what best for a child. (Parentings these days are terrible...)

[–] Oblivion14 14 years ago

I'm in my twenties (just turned 24), again just my own take on why Shelter resounded so much in me.

The reasons:

1) Like Zach, I didn't fully accept I was gay until my very late teens (though I knew I had no interest in women and have had crushes on men since I was 7 or something).
2) I never had any contact with gay culture at all until I reached my twenties. I didn't have any gay friends in my teens. No gay relatives either.
3) I'm a visual artist as well and still trying to pursue my dreams and leave my hometown. *sigh*
4) I also love my family a lot, I have a niece I adore to bits, and someday I want to raise kids.
5) My bestfriend is a straight guy.
6) It didn't focus on the 'gay drama' as a lot of gay movies do.

There has always been one thing I never understood about gay cinema. Most of the movie directors even for mainstream films ARE gay. Why is it so hard for them to make a movie that's actually a bit more real? That's why Shelter was so refreshing. For once, here was a movie with gay leads that didn't focus on circuit parties, drugs, random sex, or death. It just seems like they're just so out of touch with young gay men nowadays (perhaps an effect of being in Hollywood?). It's like they've internalized everything negative said about them and made it into movies that more or less say MORE bad things about them.

To put it simply, majority of the major gaythemed films are so friggin depressing. Those that aren't are sadly mostly made by amateur indie studios and they tend to have horrid acting. I mean, why can't we get a good old romantic comedy or a romance without having to kill off one or more of the leads?

Oh and one more thing: Shelter is amazingly sensual... for a film that for once doesn't show exploitative butt shots or full frontals. It didn't demean my sexuality by implying that all I care about is sex. Not that I'm exactly a prude, but those 'conveniently' placed fleeting glimpses of naked bodies in most other gay movies get old fast.

As for the gay culture bit, yeah I guess you're right. It's just not that important for us nowadays to conform to the 'gay stereotype'. I think that somehow in the past gays felt that in order to be part of the 'family' they had to act a certain way, dress a certain way, have certain interests, but that's just not true now. Perhaps it was because it wasn't more open back then, and even just admitting you were gay often meant rapid and total ostracization from the mainstream society. And they had nowhere to turn to but the gay communities.

Nowadays, sexual orientation is just a part of your life, it's not your raison d'etre. It doesn't affect my friendship with people from all walks of life, from straight US armed forces servicemen to gay cross-dressing music composers.

Though I'm also of the 'masculine' type, it's also not because both the leads were masculine as well. I know there is a growing dissent among gay guys about how the 'effeminate gays' are ruining our image to the mainstream society, I don't think that's true. I have very effeminate friends as well who are just being themselves and I do also enjoy a lot of campy movies.

It was more because the film's message overall was positive and wasn't shallow in any way. There are three other movies I can think of that had the same impact with me - Trick, Big Eden, and All Over the Guy. And all had one lead who were at least slightly effeminate. Though of course, there are others that didn't - Beautiful Thing, Just a Question of Love, Maurice, etc.

It doesn't mean that the younger gay generation have forgotten about the struggle for equality either. There are still a lot of movies that resound deeply in me. 'A Love to Hide' for example, reminded me about what we went through to get here. 'It's My Party' is another on the horrors the community went through during the height of the AIDS crisis. 'Milk' is another and that documentary about Bayard Rustin.

We haven't forgotten. It's just that we don't equate the struggle for rights with hedonism. I'm not pointing fingers but you have to admit that from the 60's onwards, the image of irresponsible hedonism hasn't exactly helped us. Sure, it made the world stand up and take notice of the 'hidden minority', and it was also understandable, having had to hide ourselves for centuries if not millennia. But it didn't exactly made us feel better about ourselves. It's high time that we as a community grow up to be more responsible about our actions. We're a minority but we're not exactly insulated from the rest of society.

We're also badly in need more positive films. And enough on all those films depicting us to be sex maniacs, drug addicts, or mentally unhinged. I mean, is this the image we want to show to those who are still in the process of coming out?

[–] SeaSerpent 14 years ago

Gay culture doesn't define us all.

Its more difficult for those of us who just are, the ones of us who just fade into the background.

I really love this film for that reason.

Some of us just want a private life thats ours.

[–] stonash7 13 years ago

love this

[–] sandcrab91 14 years ago

I love this comment. :)

[–] brandon-radisic 14 years ago

One of the problems with LGBT cinema, or at the very least any film (or ongoing TV series) with major gay characters & storylines, is that too often it had to leap the hurdles of even getting made only to have to cater to one of the two demographics it could guarantee sales to. The supposed gay demographic (which is so varied in its tastes and pursuits as to throw numerous wrenches into the works) and the progressive dramatists (those who love an epic drama), both were what studios and even most independent filmmakers thought they were making. If we go as far back as Cruising and Dog Day Afternoon, the LGBT issues were presented in a heavy-handed manner, even if the intentions were more-or-less pure for the time. In the 80s, gay characters were almost always obscenely flamboyent and only played for laughs. This changed when successful actors such as River Phoenix, Keanu Reeves and Tom Hanks, opted to play gay roles seriously in My Own Private Idaho and Philadelphia. The niche market for gay indies was created by Idaho, and the mainstream "gays as an issue feature" would later bring Brokeback Mountain and Milk before the Oscar audiences. To cater to the largest possible demographics, the characters in the Oscar bait films are often de-sexed (Jake Gyllenhaal could have been replaced by Katie Holmes, and Brokeback would still just be a movie about a cowboy cheating on his wife & the hell it causes everyone; the seedy hedonism of Harvey Milk's time is barely hinted at, allowing the biopic to showcase Penn's flawless impersonation and not scare away the squeamish straight audience. If anyone actually thought Tom Hanks & Antonio Banderas were lovers, I'd eat a Brokeback cowboy's hat...

Most of the smaller films dealing with major gay themes throw in a wink & nudge reference or two to gain favor with what they see as their core audience: readers of OUT, the Advocate, and coinnoisseurs of queer culture. Not content to merely throw up another list of the guilty here, I would rather mention a few films carrying strong gay themes that avoiding wrapping themselves up in sequins and screaming a stereotypical gayness:

Henry & June
Love & Human Remains
Mysterious Skin
Aimee & Jaguar
Wild Reeds
Bad Education
A Home At the End of the World
Mulholland Drive
Imaginary Heroes
The Rules of Attraction
All Over the Guy (despite a surplus of pop culture references, it's remarkably unconventional)

I don't dislike a good many of the stereotypically gay films. I've actually enjoyed quite a few, but I think as the era has passed from pure activism for mere survival, to a more complacent, more visible realm, the media will reflect more gay couples fixing up a den and shopping at Whole Foods, having cookouts with straight neighbors, and arguing with their adopted children, in lieu of a decadent nightclub boys/girls club only vision. Torch Song Trilogy begat The Broken-Hearts Club begat Hedwig & the Angry Inch begat Queer As Folk, which lead to Six Feet Under and a gay mobster on The Sopranos...

If it leads to us NEVER seeing Philip Seymour Hoffman in drag, Hank Azaria in short-shorts, or Sharon Stone seducing EVERONE (because that's the media image of bisexuality...) again, I'm game for this realistic, simpler visage of the LGBT community as it finds its way into the broader community.

[–] Dragoneyed363 14 years ago

Shelter is trying to show how two gay people can live along the lines of anyone else in the world and not have to focus on everything that goes into "gay culture" other than simply their sexuality. That's what I love about it. Not every gay person has to live how society would expect them to live, and Shelter tries to show that, as well as many other problems any other ordinary person could experience in their life, besides coming out.

I'd rather be disemboweled with a toothbrush.

[–] movieoverdose1127 14 years ago

So, according to you all gay films most have circuit parties or pride parades??? Get off your high horse, this kind of thinking only helps to feed gay sterotypes...this is a nice intimate story about two guys in love that doesn't need to polluted by this so called "gay culture" (not all gays share this culture) to be excellent

[–] SirFrancisBeaverhausen 14 years ago

Great posts! And ICAM. SHELTER was such a freeing movie for me because I'm a pretty regular guy who is gay. Most gay "culture" does little for me. I've never cared for trendoids, str8 or gay, and much of the gay community is all about the newest, trendiest and most "fabulous" of everything.

When it comes to pain and suffering, she's right up there with Elizabeth Taylor.

[–] easterndodo 14 years ago

Hello,
First, I state I have not seen the movie (yet) and got here via a link from facebook, but I think, especially after reading this thread, I'll probably get hold of it and watch it.

So my comments are a bit general as, indeed, I haven't watched it yet.

I think that the absence of any reference to gay culture and usual cliches/stereotypes is a great grand thing for a movie.

In my experience, I believe gay culture and stereotypes is one of the things that caused (and still cause) a lot of troubles with coming out (4 years ago, I'm 26 now) and with being comfortable about being gay myself.
This is because the usual gay places are the last places I'd like to be in, and gay culture could not be more distant and completely at the opposite of what is my personality.
Beware: it's not a problem with campness/masculinity, I do believe everybody should behave the way they want etc., even though campness may be a bit of a turn-off for me (even though I know some people whose campness is sweet and delicate).
I don't give a monkey's armpit about crappy pop/dance music, make up, fashion, musicals, Marilyn Monroe or Judy Garland, and all the usual references gay men generally make when they gather together. Actually, I feel quite uncomfortable in gay environments, my friends are all straight (except 2, who are gay but they're not friends of mine because they're gay, it just happened that we met through common friends and became good friends), my 2 best friends are male and straight. I love rock music, beer and outdoors etc.
So when I was coming out I remember I watched some of the movies I could get hold of, and I tried to get to the gay scene and get close to the so-called 'gay-culture', but that just worsened my process of coming out. Didn't have muuch internet or forums and came from a quite a provincial place, and so I was thinking "I like boys, but I'm not like those 'gays'. What am I?"

Sorry if I went a bit off-topic, it was just to explain the context and why I am frustrated with the gay culture.
To summarise:
I think that it's not just me, but this gay-culture thing has been quite detrimental, so were the movies so soaked in gay references and stereotypes, and struggles with coming out and this whole gayness about them.
So it's nice, that a new generation of movies are coming out, and deal with homosexuality treating it as just a little detail in a much more wider story which is not centred on the gayness itself.
I think most people that don't see the 'gayness' as the defining part of their personality, their focus of their nights out and group of friends, would find this movie *refreshing*, as some other posters already mentioned.

I'll definitely watch it now: apparently there's no overtly sexual scenes, no fag-hags (what an offensive word btw), no clubbing, just 2 normal guys that like each other plus many other themes to the plot.

Mind you,
I am not diminishing the role the gay community had in Stonewall times etc. But I think that liberation spark turned into a self-referential elitist clique that is trying its best to distance itself from the 'straight' world as much as possible. Honestly: do you really think gay clubs, gay parades and very-gay movies help fighting for equality and against stereotypes. If anything, they just reinforce those stereotypes and increase the divide between straight and gay. In my opinion there should not be any category, just human beings in peace and harmony with each other.
And, as some other poster said, this is one of the movies you could watch with your family, straight friends and would strike people for the plot and the themes, rather than the gayness.

Sorry, it was a bit of a rant,
I'll watch the movie and then maybe get back.

Cheers
Tom,
from Leeds, England, the United Kingdom.

[–] gbarriere 14 years ago

I started this discussion and I really appreciate all the comments. I do want to clarify one thing. By noticing the lack of reference to gay culture and traditional gay spaces, I wasn't suggesting there was anything wrong with that. I also found it refreshing. I just found it interesting. Many of the people in my generation would have had a much harder time coming out if there were no safe gay PUBLIC spaces - we had to gather to find each other, even if it was in "pathetic" gay bars, as the senior partner of the law firm calls them in the film Philadelphia. As a result, I found the film a bit of a lonely place for the following reasons (which doesn't mean that I liked it any less).

Despite this film being about modern gay life, which presumably is supposed to be better and thus more open than in the past, it is still about homophobia and the search for safe spaces for those affected by that homophobia (shelter). The homosexuality is not, as some have suggested, just a small part of the story. Zack's sister is openly homophobic (she asks Zach if he's a "fag", says she doesn't want to deal with that reality, says she doesn't want her son around "that", refers derisively to the relationship with Shaun as a "big gay wedding" and that it is lowers Zach to a "summer *beep*", "a piece of ass") and the guy at the beach asks Zach if he is a "fag" because he has broken up with his girlfriend. In fact it is that homophobia and its internalization by Zach, and then his courage to face it, that drives the script forward. However, even near the end of the film when Zach finals comes out to his ex girlfriend, he cannot say the word gay and when asked by Tori if he is loves Shaun, Zach feels compelled to dismiss the very idea of two men being in love ("Oh, come on.").

What I found interesting was that despite that homophobia and how it affects the main characters, the safe spaces in this film are all entirely private and not public. It is also an unstable space - neither Zach nor Sean's homes. The song playing during the montage of them in that space is "Lie to me."

Zach's sister correctly notes that Zach has been "hiding" his relatioinship with Shaun (the closet alive and well). Moreover, even in private there are often more then two people to share in experiences, and thus the importance of house parties for gay people and their friends in the past (see the film Boys in the Band) and today. But the two leads in this film are always together alone, except for brief times with Cody (the other intersecting concept of shelter). We never see them with any other gay people (except Zach's brief cruising scene with the hunks at the beach parking lot, which publicness just makes him uncomfortable).

I have a feeling and hope this film in 20 years will be as dated as Boys in the Band is today (a house party of gay men with one straight intruder). Gay boys and girls will be regularly coming out together in high school or at summer camp and those will be safer public spaces to do so. I find it just interesting that as gay people become more visibile in ALL spaces, not just in traditional gay spaces, this writer moved his story back inside and leaves the characters alone, with no one else to turn to and, especially, with no other gay people to turn to. Zach does not turn to anyone he knows to deal with the heartbreak of the breakup. Even Shawn, who has been out longer, is only seen alone dealing with the breakup, staring at his laptop or sitting on the beach trying to call ... Zach.

Because of that lonely, isolated feel to the film, for me the most powerful single moment in the film is when Zach and Shaun arrive to pick up Cody before Jeanne and her boyfriend head off to Oregon. When they get out of the car, Zach moves forward and Shaun stays back. Zach then looks for Shaun and goes back to get him, holding Shaun's hand as the two walk forward. Through that simple but highly symbolic and courageous action of them holding hands, Zach has taken the relationship and its homosexuality out of the private sphere and into the public realm (and NOT in a safer gay neighbourhood). If the relationship had not started out so private and isolated, that moment and the moments that follow would not have had the same power and resonance.

That is the story the writer wanted to tell and I fully respect that. I just don't know if we can still tell that story and at the same say, as some have suggested in this discussion, that being gay is no big deal, is not central to who we are and that identity does not require our own temporary or permanent shelters.

[–] Buck_futter 13 years ago

Well.. being young (20) and gay, I had absolutely no part in popular Gay Culture in my teens, so this movie was pretty relatable to me. However, that might have something to do with being a lesbian, because "lesbian culture" and "gay culture" are two different worlds that don't seem to coexist often.

But I think that's just a product of today's society (this movie was made in 2007 right?), gay teens are somewhat able to break out of the places that they had been previously been expected to only hang out in, like you were talking about with the gay bars and nightclubs and stuff.

That's just my opinion.... I do know people who are totally ensconced within gay culture... but they are in their late twenties and thirties mostly.

Snap, Crackle, Smack You.

[–] AltaireIII 13 years ago

"One of the things I found very interesting about this film was the lack of any references to gay culture. As a 47 year old gay man who came out in my late teens long before the internet, my relationship to gay culture was a very important part of my identity. By gay culture, I mean all the ways we preformed our visibility amongst ourselves and to the outside world, including bars, bathhouses, dance music, erotic art, pride parades, fashion, house and dinner parties, ect."

What you describe is a common enough element in films about minority population communities. No filmmaker can ever make a film that explain away gay people. Even Spike Lee can't make a film that explains every black person from start to stop. Spike Lee has made great films too.

Rather gay theme films and black theme films etc. take snapshots of aspects of a community as a whole. Shelter is an snapshot of one part of the gay community as a whole.

[–] bgtaylor802 12 years ago

That is a beautiful treatise of this film.

Another great moment is the scene between Zach and Gabe in the closed diner.
Gabe is doing his best to be understanding if not completely sympathetic.

Gabe: "Why didn't you tell me?"
Zach: "Tell you what?"
Gabe: "I don't care -- at all!"
Zach: "I don't know what you're talkin' about."
Gabe: "O.K. -- have you -- have you always known?"
Zach: "Seriously, Dude!"
Gabe: "O.K. -- The fact that it's my brother is totally weird."
Zach: "I know." (Zach has acknowledged his sexual orientation for the first time in the picture)
Gabe: "I mean really, really weird."
Zach: "All right, I got it. Sorry." (Zach is expressing regret for his sexual orientaton.
Gabe: "Don't be sorry." (He shouldn't regret it.)
Zach: "Don't tell anyone, O.K.?" (Zach is still struggling to keep the closet door closed.)
Gabe: "O.K. -- did you go with other guys?"
Zach: "No!"
Gabe: "They give better head, don't they? I heard they give better head." (Is Gabe wondering what he might be missing?)
Zach: "Gabe!"
Gabe: "O.K. -- so where'd you go last night?"
Zach: "Slept in my car."
Gabe: "Why didn't just crash in mine? This doesn't have to change things." (I'm still your friend).
Zach: "Doesn't change things? Hey, you're right, Gabe." (You can't know how I feel.)
Gabe: "I used to be the guy you came and talked to, remember? Before Shaun? This isn't exactly easy on me."
Zach: "Yeah, it isn't easy on you, right? You know what? It's over anyway. Just leave it, Dude." Zach is expressing to his boyhood friend the pain he is going through.

As Zach hold the door open for Gabe to leave, Gabe turns toward Zach.
Gabe: "Hey, we're still bros, right? I mean it. C'mere." He gives Zach a hug and a couple of thumps on the back. Zach nods slightly and Gabe exits.
Zach turns back toward camera with an expression of pain.

Jonah Markowitz provided some beautiful dialog and direction for his players and they internalized it and expressed it perfectly.