WARNING! Garbage Alert!!!


if you believe in a WTC gov't conspiracy and subsequent coverup concocted by what would require the complicit cooperation of hundreds then you are dumb. if nixon couldn't keep a little break in quiet, then it is beyond preposterous to even entertain this thought. all of you who buy into this collage of "loose" stool and purpose driven conclusions are being laughed at by bigfoot, the lockness monster, and the tooth fairy. Santa's not though, he's pissed at you dummies.

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Santa's not though, he's pissed at you dummies

LOL!

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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rtiemann-1,

Thank you! You have my vote for president, my friend!

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[deleted]

Read this, you might learn something, dummy.

As the North Tower collapsed on September 11, 2001, debris hit 7 World Trade Center, causing heavy damage to the south face of the building.[3] The bottom portion of the building's south face was heavily damaged from debris, including: damage to the southwest corner from the 8th to 18th floor, a large vertical gash on the center-bottom extending at least ten floors, and other damage as high as the 18th floor.[3] The building was equipped with a sprinkler system, but had many single-point vulnerabilities for failure. The sprinkler system required manual initiation of the electrical fire pumps, rather than being a fully automatic system. The sprinkler floor level controls had just a single connection to the sprinkler water riser, and the sprinkler system required some power for the fire pump to deliver water. Loss of power to the fire pump or other damage to the structure would have meant no functioning sprinklers. Also, water pressure was low, with little or no water to feed sprinklers.[20][21]

After the north tower collapsed, some firefighters entered 7 World Trade Center to search the building. They attempted to extinguish small pockets of fire, but low water pressure hindered their efforts.[22] A massive fire burned into the afternoon on the 11th and 12th floors of 7 World Trade Center, the flames visible on the east side of the building.[23][24] During the afternoon, fire was also seen on floors 6–10, 13–14, 19–22, and 29–30.[3] At approximately 2:00 p.m., firefighters noticed a bulge in the southwest corner of 7 World Trade Center between the 10th and 13th floors which was a sign that the building was unstable and might collapse.[25] During the afternoon, firefighters also heard creaking sounds coming from the building.[26] Around 3:30 pm, given that 7 World Trade Center was unstable and would possibly collapse, FDNY Chief Daniel Nigro decided to halt rescue operations, surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris near 7 World Trade Center and evacuate the area due to concerns for the safety of personnel.[27][25] At 5:20 p.m. EDT on September 11, 2001, 7 World Trade Center collapsed. The building had been evacuated and there were no casualties associated with the collapse.

In May 2002, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) issued a report on the collapse based on a preliminary investigation conducted jointly with the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers under leadership of Dr. W. Gene Corley, P.E. FEMA made preliminary findings that the collapse was not primarily caused by actual impact damage from the collapse of 1 WTC and 2 WTC but by fires on multiple stories ignited by debris from the other two towers that continued unabated due to lack of water for sprinklers or manual firefighting. Structural elements were exposed to high temperatures for a sufficient period of time to reduce their strength to the point of collapse.[6]

The report did not reach final conclusions about the cause of the collapse, but listed several issues requiring further investigation. FEMA made these findings:

Loss of structural integrity was likely a result of weakening caused by fires on the 5th to 7th floors. The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue. [Ch. 5, p. 31.]

In response to FEMA's concerns, the Commerce Department’s National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) was authorized to lead a three-year, $16 million investigation into the structural failure and collapse of the World Trade Center twin towers and 7 World Trade Center.[28] The investigation, led by Dr S. Shyam Sunder, drew not only upon in-house technical expertise, but also the knowledge of several outside private institutions, including the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE), the Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE), the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), the American Institute of Steel Construction (AISC), the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH), and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY).[29]

NIST has released a video and still-photo analysis of 7 World Trade Center before its collapse that appears to indicate a greater degree of structural damage from falling debris than originally assumed by FEMA. Specifically, NIST's interim report on 7 World Trade Center displays photographs of the southwest façade of the building that show it to have significant damage. The report also highlights a 10-story gash in the center of the south façade, toward the bottom, extending approximately a quarter of the way into the interior.[30][3] A unique aspect of the design of 7 World Trade Center was that each outer structural column was responsible for supporting 2,000 sq ft (186 m²) of floor space, suggesting that the simultaneous removal of a number of columns severely compromised the structure's integrity.[31] Consistent with this theory, news footage shows cracking and bowing of the building's east wall immediately before the collapse, which began at the penthouse floors.[3] In video of the collapse, taken from the north by CBS News and other news media, the first visible sign of collapse is movement in the east penthouse 8.2 seconds before the north wall began to collapse, which took at least another 7 seconds.[3][32]

A progress report was released in June 2004, outlining NIST's working hypothesis.[33][3] The hypothesis, which was reiterated in a June 2007 status update, is that an initial failure in a critical column occurred below the 13th floor, caused by damage from fire and/or debris induced structural damage of a critical column, from the collapse of the two main towers. The collapse progressed vertically up to the east mechanical penthouse. The interior structure was unable to handle the redistributed load, resulting in horizontal progression of the failure across lower floors, particularly the 5th to 7th floors. This resulted in "a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure."[34]

NIST anticipates the release of a draft report of 7 World Trade Center by the end of 2007.[34] The NIST is utilizing ANSYS to model events leading up to collapse initiation and LS-DYNA models to simulate the global response to initiating events.[35] The investigation of 7 World Trade Center has been delayed for a number of reasons, including that NIST staff who had been working on 7 World Trade Center were assigned full-time from June 2004 to September 2005, to work on the investigation of the collapse of the twin towers.[36] In June 2007, he explained, "We are proceeding as quickly as possible while rigorously testing and evaluating a wide range of scenarios to reach the most definitive conclusion possible. The WTC 7 investigation is in some respects just as challenging, if not more so, than the study of the towers. However, the current study does benefit greatly from the significant technological advances achieved and lessons learned from our work on the towers."[34]

Despite preliminary findings by FEMA and NIST that fire caused them, some conspiracy theorists believe the dramatic building collapses on September 11, including that of building seven, were the result of controlled demolition.[37][38] NIST has "found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event", though in its final report on building 7, they would "like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements."[36]

When 7 World Trade Center collapsed, debris caused substantial damage and contamination to the Borough of Manhattan Community College's Fiterman Hall building, located adjacent at 30 West Broadway, to the extent that the building is not salvageable. As of August 2007, Fiterman Hall is undergoing deconstruction.[39] The adjacent Verizon Building, an art deco building constructed in 1926, had extensive damage to its east façade from the collapse of 7 World Trade Center, though was able to be restored at a cost of US$1.4 billion.[40]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Abcnews-wtc7damage.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wtc7_collapse_progression.png

Do everybody a favor and RESEARCH things before you go on here and start screaming it was an inside job without giving us any proof. Every person that comes on here gives their proof and one of us debunks it solidly. I'm sure you don't bother to read any of the proof we give anyway. Wouldn't want you to give up your little after school hobby!
http://www.PaulRon2008.com/
Our only hope for a terrible President.

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"Do everybody a favor and RESEARCH things before you go on here and start screaming it was an inside job without giving us any proof."

If it looks like a duck ... If it quacks like a duck ...


Those buildings were demolished, thick head. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0751567/board/nest/83885504?d=86251195#8625 1195

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Yay, i'm an example! What does that moron have anything to do with WTC 7 collapsing?

http://www.PaulRon2008.com/
Our only hope for a terrible President.

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[deleted]

oooh wow, because you can't cite sources for that kind of thing, right? maybe you shouldn't dismiss informative posts like that and just say "it's from wikipedia so it's all crap" when the numbers in brackets are cited, reliable sources.

or maybe you're just ignoring it and dismissing it because it completely destroys the truthers' WTC 7 *beep* and other 9/11 conspiracy BS.

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cool, i love to copy and paste and call it proof too, here i go...

oh wait i can't find the 911 commission report.

Oh i know, let's spin the clock back to the dark ages.




1 First God made heaven & earth 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. 6 And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. 9 And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas......

That's the closet thing they had to the commission report.

That should debunk all you evolutioners....oh wait truthers.

I admit i haven't seen anything except these truther movies, but i am about to start looking into the official story..

Does anyway have any suggestions on what kind of lubrication i should have handy, just in case the official story wants to rape my intelligence.

The only thing i firmly believe out of all this truth BS, and the official BS is the coefficient of resistance of air, and the resistance of steal and concrete are not equal. Otherwise, i want all that money back front those physics courses i took in college. Those numbers are way different, it's like the time it took the government to "clean up" ground zero, and the time it's taking them to clean up new Orleans. They should take all the money they got from the scrape steal that was shipped over seas, and recycled..OK now I'm spitting out facts i heard from the movie...i have to make sure it's real first...sorry..

Ok, i'm just saying there is no way that you can watch these movies, and not go hmmmmmmm.

"I a m not a good American, because i like to form my own opinions."
"First rule(rules i live by), I don't believe anything the government tells me.." George Carlin-Jammin in NY 1992

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cool, i love to copy and paste and call it proof too, here i go...

Yeah, you posted the same thing in a couple of places. Good job. You can click your mouse as well as a monkey.

I admit i haven't seen anything except these truther movies, but i am about to start looking into the official story..

So you are spouting off about this and that and you haven't even started looking into the other side of the story? Wow.

Does anyway have any suggestions on what kind of lubrication i should have handy, just in case the official story wants to rape my intelligence.

Way to have an open mind.

The only thing i firmly believe out of all this truth BS, and the official BS is the coefficient of resistance of air, and the resistance of steal and concrete are not equal. Otherwise, i want all that money back front those physics courses i took in college.

Yeah, you should get your money back. Do you have any idea of the potential energy stored in the towers? And when that energy is tranferred to kinetic energy and is released, do you have any clue what could happen?
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_12_2007.htm
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/466.pdf
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/00%20WTC%2 0Collapse%20-%20What%20did%20&%20Did%20Not%20Cause%20It%20-%20Revi sed% 206-22-07.pdf
http://www.exponent.com//wtc.html
http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/
http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/2006/060911.Sozen.WTC.html
http://enr.construction.com/news/buildings/archives/021104.asp



No way the girl in the pics is her since I slam girls like that on the weekends-Jerome66

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Tool alert.

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So, yeah...tell us again how wtc7 collapsed?

I'll jump in with Kevin here.

WTC7 came down with a 20 story hole in it, a three story visible bulge and totally on fire and corner damage running up to the 18th floor but lets explore shall we?

Lets look at these videos of WTC 7 first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjvlO3PEVz4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g02aurpG1BQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afb7eUHr64U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMoz3Lt5dnA
Stills of the whole building.

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_smoke_1.html

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_smoke_2.html

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_smoke_3.html

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_smoke_4.html

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_smoke_5.html

Corner damage.
http://www.kolumbus.fi/av.caesar/wtc/wtc7_2.jpg

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6186921835292416413&hl=en- CA

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3088/wtc7band300000fh6.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/310/wtc7band400000ac0.jpg

The 20 Story Hole
http://www.debunking911.com/7wtc.jpg

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6186921835292416413&hl=en- CA

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3088/wtc7band300000fh6.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/310/wtc7band400000ac0.jpg


Illustrated 42 page PowerPoint style detailed report (easy read) on the damage. A must see.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20IIC%20-%20WTC%207%20Collapse%20F inal.pdf

Here is your fire from the firemen on scene.

Battalion Chief John Norman
Special Operations Command - 22 years

From there, we looked out at 7 World Trade Center again. You could see smoke, but no visible fire, and some damage to the south face. You couldn’t really see from where we were on the west face of the building, but at the edge of the south face you could see that it was very heavily damaged.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/norman.html
Chris Boyle expands on what he saw when he viewed the south side, not just the corner.
Captain Chris Boyle
Engine 94 - 18 years

Boyle: ...on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?

Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyle.html

Another report talks of damage that suggested collapse was a real possibility:
...Captain Varriale told Chief Coloe and myself that 7 World Trade Center was badly damaged on the south side and definitely in danger of collapse. Chief Coloe said we were going to evacuate the collapse zone around 7 World Trade Center, which we did.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110462.PDF

Fire chief Daniel Nigro says further assessment of the damage indicated that it was severe:

The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged [WTC Building 7]. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building's integrity was in serious doubt.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?id=1521846767-634

Another fireman reported damage that progressed as the day wore on.
Deputy Chief Peter Hayden
Division 1 - 33 years

...also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

Firehouse: Was there heavy fire in there right away?
Hayden: No, not right away, and that’s probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/hayden.html

[Shortly after the tower collapses] I don‚t know how long this was going
on, but I remember standing there looking over at building 7 and realizing that
a big chunk of the lower floors had been taken out on the Vesey Street side.
I
looked up at the building and I saw smoke in it, but I really didn't see any
fire at that time. Deputy ƒƒChief Nick Visconti http://tinyurl.com/paqux

A few minutes after that a police officer came up to me and told me that
the façade in front of Seven World Trade Center was gone and they thought there
was an imminent collapse of Seven World Trade Center. FDNY Lieutenant William
Melarango
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110045.PDF

I think they said they had seven to ten floors that were freestanding and
they weren't going to send anyone in. FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110055.PDF

So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn‚t look like
there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there
had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors.
Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. But they had a
hose line operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the
street, but eventually they pulled back too.

Then we received an order from Fellini, we‚re going to make a move on 7. That
was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn‚t
look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was
no hydrant pressure. I wasn‚t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer
I‚m standing next to said, that building doesn‚t look straight. So I‚m standing
there. I‚m looking at the building. It didn‚t look right, but, well, we‚ll go
in, we‚ll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed to-
ward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandeis
came running up. He said forget it, nobody‚s going into 7, there’s creaking,
there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10
minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another
report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Vis-
conti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was aban-
doned.

Firehouse Magazine: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to
the base of that side?

Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.
Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?
There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered through there. It was a huge
hole. I would say it was probably a third of it, right in the middle of it. And
so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we‚ll
head back to the command post.„ Capt. Chris Boyle http://tinyurl.com/e7bzp


After the initial blast, Housing Authority worker Barry Jennings, 46, re-
ported to a command center on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center. He was
with Michael Hess, the city's corporation counsel, when they felt and heard an-
other explosion. First calling for help, they scrambled downstairs to the
lobby, or what was left of it. "I looked around, the lobby was gone. It looked
like hell," Jennings said.

http://www.record-eagle.com/2001/sep/11scene.htm

Anyway, I was looking at WTC7 and I noticed that it wasn’t looking like it
was straight. It was really weird. The closest corner to me (the SE corner) was
kind of out of whack with the SW corner. It was impossible to tell whether that
corner (the SW) was leaning over more or even if it was leaning the other way.
With all of the smoke and the debris pile, I couldn’t exactly tell what was going
on, but I sure could see the building was leaning over in a way it certainly
should not be. I asked another guy looking with me and he said “That
building is going to come down, we better get out of here.” So we did. –M.J.,
Employed at 45 Broadway.

So we left 7 World Trade Center, back down to the street, where I ran into
Chief Coloe from the 1st Division, Captain Varriale, Engine 24, and Captain
Varriale told Chief Coloe and myself that 7 World Trade Center was badly damaged
on the south side and definitely in danger of collapse. Chief Coloe said
we were going to evacuate the collapse zone around 7 World Trade Center, which
we did. – FDNY Lieutenant Rudolph Weindler
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110462.PDF

On scene report of WTC 7 leaning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HLDgjYuRHk

“See where that white smoke is? See this thing leaning like this? It’s definitely coming down. There’s no way to stop it. Cause ya have to go up in there to put it out…and its already… The structural integrity is not there. Its tough.”

And a lot of Fuel

Fuel Tanks for generators in WTC7

275-gallon tank on 7th floor;

one 6,000-gallon tank located between low-rise elevators in east elevator shaft between 2nd and 3rd floors

Two 6,000-gallon tanks under loading dock on ground level

Two 12,000-gallon tanks under loading dock on ground level

275-gallon tank on 5th floor

Approximately 50- to 100-gallon tank under generator on 9th floor

275-gallon tank on 8th floor on west side next to exterior wall

AND HERE ARE TWO QUESTIONS

1. If this was done as a False Flag Operation, what is the significance of the relatively small in the (grand scheme of things) WTC7, If you drop the Huge WTC1 & 2 (think back to those images on TV the first time you saw them) did Bush have some mathematical formula that said the US population would not support a war in Iraq unless WTC7 was dropped also?

2. Why drop the penthouse through WTC7’s roof 5 seconds before you drop WTC7. If you are going to bring the whole thing down in five seconds why do all the work to drop the penthouse through the roof a mere five seconds earlier?


HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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[deleted]

You don't have to be geniuses like you 2 guys to know that wtc7 came down in a controlled demolition...just like the TT.

Your government is lying to you....it's urinating down your back and you think it's raining....because they are telling you it's raining.

Wake up and think


Nice bumper sticker, too bad there is no evidence of that.

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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You won't need evidence when you get your biochip, MasterShake. Your biochip will be your new God.

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You won't need evidence when you get your biochip, MasterShake. Your biochip will be your new God.

I'm sure that will happen, In gumdrop land, when the magical king of the forest issues his proclamation and then the wood gnomes and the tree people will live happily forever more.

tkidcharlemagne - True though there's nowt as dumb as masterbate et al.

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You don't have to be geniuses like you 2 guys to know that wtc7 came down in a controlled demolition...just like the TT.

To believe that they were all CDs, I guess you have to have a vivid imagination. Why does these people disagree?

Bazant, Z.P., & Zhou, Y.
"Addendum to 'Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? - Simple Analysis" (pdf)
Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 3, (2002): 369-370.

Brannigan, F.L.
"WTC: Lightweight Steel and High-Rise Buildings"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 4, (2002): 145-150.

Clifton, Charles G.
Elaboration on Aspects of the Postulated Collapse of the World Trade Centre Twin Towers
HERA: Innovation in Metals. 2001. 13 December 2001.

"Construction and Collapse Factors"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002): 106-108.

Corbett, G.P.
"Learning and Applying the Lessons of the WTC Disaster"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002.): 133-135.

"Dissecting the Collapses"
Civil Engineering ASCE v. 72, no. 5, (2002): 36-46.

Eagar, T.W., & Musso, C.
"Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation"
JOM v. 53, no. 12, (2001): 8-12.

Federal Emergency Management Agency, Therese McAllister, report editor.
World Trade Center Building Performance Study: Data Collection, Preliminary Observations, and Recommendations
(also available on-line)

Gabrielson, T.B., Poese, M.E., & Atchley, A.A.
"Acoustic and Vibration Background Noise in the Collapsed Structure of the World Trade Center"
The Journal of Acoustical Society of America v. 113, no. 1, (2003): 45-48.

"Collapse Lessons"
Fire Engineering v. 155, no. 10, (2002): 97-103

Marechaux, T.G.
"TMS Hot Topic Symposium Examines WTC Collapse and Building Engineering"
JOM, v. 54, no. 4, (2002): 13-17.

Monahan, B.
"World Trade Center Collapse-Civil Engineering Considerations"
Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction v. 7, no. 3, (2002): 134-135.

Newland, D.E., & Cebon, D.
"Could the World Trade Center Have Been Modified to Prevent Its Collapse?"
Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 7, (2002):795-800.

National Instititue of Stamdards and Technology: Congressional and Legislative Affairs
“Learning from 9/11: Understanding the Collapse of the World Trade Center”
Statement of Dr. Arden L. Bement, Jr., before Committee of Science House of Representatives, United States Congress on March 6, 2002.

Pinsker, Lisa, M.
"Applying Geology at the World Trade Center Site"
Geotimes v. 46, no. 11, (2001).
The print copy has 3-D images.

Public Broadcasting Station (PBS)
Why the Towers Fell: A Companion Website to the Television Documentary.
NOVA (Science Programming On Air and Online)

Post, N.M.
"No Code Changes Recommended in World Trade Center Report"
ENR v. 248, no. 14, (2002): 14.

Post, N.M.
"Study Absolves Twin Tower Trusses, Fireproofing"
ENR v. 249, no. 19, (2002): 12-14.

The University of Sydney, Department of Civil Engineering
World Trade Center - Some Engineering Aspects
A resource site.

"WTC Engineers Credit Design in Saving Thousands of Lives"
ENR v. 247, no. 16, (2001): 12.

Your government is lying to you....it's urinating down your back and you think it's raining....because they are telling you it's raining.

I'm pretty sure that's what YOU'RE doing, chief. Alex Jones tells you something and you treat it like gospel truth.

Wake up and think

Good advice, try following it sometime.

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The University of Sydney, Department of Civil Engineering
World Trade Center - Some Engineering Aspects
A resource site.


Hey, Make sure you read this one from CKent. See, Some Aussies use evidence. Give it a try or the Chasers might do a whole show on you.

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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[deleted]

You are narrow minded beyond belief.


Ha ha ha...if this is the future of Conspiracy Theorists then it might be over earlier than we think!

http://www.PaulRon2008.com/
Our only hope for a terrible President.

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[deleted]

Yeah you sure are.

http://www.PaulRon2008.com/
Our only hope for a terrible President.

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Fact is it went down like a lift...like an elevator. Like a controlled demolition.
Fact is demolition charges alone do not cause structures to fall, they're just catalysts; they make collapse possible and gravity does the rest. Controlled demolitions use charges that are strategicaly placed so as to control the direction of collapse. 7 was not a controlled collapse--it went north and south almost simultaneously and caused heavy damage to buildings across the street--ergo it could not have been a controlled demolition.

Any demolition charges in the building would've had to survive fire & shock and violate the laws of physics, ergo it was not a demolition.

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[deleted]

Fact is it went down like a lift...like an elevator. Like a controlled demolition. Because it was a controlled demolition. Lol, it was like a magic trick. Perfect as you like.

That's odd people that work in the field say you are wrong. In fact, the biggest CD company in the world says you are wrong, the world record holders of the biggest, tallest and most Controlled Demolitions ever.

So what are you qualifications in making your statement again, you work a fungrys?

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%20STUDY%208-06%20w%20clarif% 20as%20of%209-8-06%20.pdf

PS: Tell me some nutty stuff about the Freemasons.

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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[deleted]

The depth of your ignorance and the completness of your delusion is so acute.

Yes, We know, It was a CD even though you have no experience in that field, the Freemasons were behind it. Dumb and paranoid, no way to live your life son.

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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[deleted]

You just keep digging that hole deeper chief

Sounds like you are debateless (and clueless.)

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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It's like endlessly repeating "Nuh-uh!" then declaring victory.

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[deleted]

Come on...I wont laugh...admit it! wtc7...come on fellas...you can do it! We'll start easy...what did the collapse look like? Nice and easy question for you....

Explain how a CD takes three hours and causes the building to lean, groan and creak. (With the FDNY in the building or right outside). Then tell me how the freemasons figure into all this.


HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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hey shaking! how you doing? I got something for you:

http://www.dennyblaze.com/

Come on, serious now, can you believe that this guy still does that stupid *beep* Hes almost as crazy as you ;-)

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http://www.dennyblaze.com/

Come on, serious now, can you believe that this guy still does that stupid *beep* Hes almost as crazy as you ;-)


I had looked that up, too funny. I bet he is making a bit from it.

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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All you flingin feces towards one another is not helping anything. for every single person with "eveidence" debunking theories there are experts in the same field disagreeing. The quesiton you need to ask is if they were mostly Saudis in the planes then why did we ILLEGALLY invade Iraq? Follow the money trail and you will find the real perputrators of 9/11, weither it was an inside job or allowed to happen! In 1999 a famous pro golfer Payne Stewart was in a lear jet and lost cabin pressure and the whole crew died. The plane was off course for a total of 20 min w/o repsonding over North Dakota, immeadiatly 2 F-16's were scrambled to investigate....so why is it after 2 planes hit the WTC was there a stand ordered by Dick Cheney to NORAD to screamble fighters to investigate the other two hijacked planes not responding for over 40 min???? Why was the protocol not followed on the day of the worst attack on American soil since Pearl Harbor? Answer me that you EFFING mindless sheep!

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rawpdx420

Last Active Mon Nov 19 2007
Registered Mon Nov 19 2007

Somebody lose a sock?

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The plane was off course for a total of 20 min w/o repsonding over North Dakota, immeadiatly 2 F-16's were scrambled to investigate....so why is it after 2 planes hit the WTC was there a stand ordered by Dick Cheney to NORAD to screamble fighters to investigate the other two hijacked planes not responding for over 40 min????

BS: First Payne Stewart, the only successful intercept over North America in the 10 years prior to 9/11 took a hour and a half. Second!

8:37 a.m.
The Northeast American Defense Sector (NEADS) of the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) is notified of the hijacking of American Airlines Flight 11 by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) Boston Center Control. The controller requests military help to intercept the aircraft.

8:46 a.m.
F-15 fighter jets are dispatched from Otis Air Force Base in Mass., but because Flight 11's transponder is off, Air Force pilots do not know which direction to travel to meet the plane. NEADS personnel spend the next several minutes watching their radar scopes waiting for Flight 11 to reappear.


HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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What is it with Truthers and calling the kettle "black"?

You Truthers have no proof...where's your proof?

Who do you Truthers think you are?

Stop being sucker fish all your lives and swim out from under big daddy Alex Jones' fin and have a look around yourself. Sure you might get eaten...there's a lot of jungle out there! But duuuudes.....wake up little snoozies...smell the smellin' salts!

Come on...I wont laugh...admit it! wtc7...come on fella...you can do it! We'll start easy...why did the collapse look like it did? Nice and easy question for you....I'll even give you a hint: the answer is one word.

Come on...be brave, you can do it!

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SHUT THE *beep* UP. on blazin shaking responds to my posts

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Why not just PM him?

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i want everybody able to read it

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What, you want everyone to be able to read but only Shake can respond? Sorry, doesn't work that way.

Anyway, I was responding to matt, not you.

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[deleted]

The collapse of wtc7 looked exactly like a ................."

... a building collapsing. Way too much damage from the collapsing WTC and continuing fires made it impossible to continue standing.

Ah... there, you're right, it feels much better. Thanks, playa.

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"The collapse of wtc7 looked exactly like a ................."

Oh God, Youtube logic again, no need for physical evidence, no need for experts, what does it look like on youtube to people not in the field of demolition.

(I once saw a cloud that looked like a Bunny, I don't think it was though.)

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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[deleted]

The collapse of the building looked exactly/ identical to/ the same as/ just like a ................(input answer here)..............................

Come on guys!!!!!!!!! You can do it!!


A bunny rabbit?

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[deleted]

Ok, im with matt2873 on this. I felt watching it live at the time, The planes hit to high up the towers to cause a collapse, and i remembered learning that cold burning fires produce thick black smoke as the fire is starved of fuel, and going out. So i was shocked to hear the official explination at the time, but accepted it. Until a couple of years ago anyway. I dont want to go on a big rant here, but can the people who believe bin ladin did it explain these points for me? as although im convinced of a cover up, id still like to read something that sensibly explains these points.

1, it is a fact, only 3 buildings have ever collapsed 'due to fires' the WTC,1,2,7. and given that building built long before have survived worse fires. this seems...suspicious?
2, wtc7 contained thousands of files related to investigations into illegal trading. convenient they dont exist now.
3, I know it sounds like im just re-hashing the film here, but seriously. where was the wreckage from flight 93 and the pentagon? No matter what side you are on, no one can deny...there is just nothing there. Everyone commented at the time, every news / media channel captured it, you have to accept this not right!? and it is absolutely impossible that both the planes crashed, completely desintegrated leaving no wreckage, or any real sign of a plane crash, but the seemingly only items to survive this massive crash, happens to be the evidence to incriminate a couple the 'terrorists'
4, I have a couple of friends who were working in a studio in WTC. They are both very intelligent people, not irrational or easily influenced and i trust what they say. They testify that there was a massive explosion in the basement, they were only a couple floors up and immediately made there way back down only to discover the lobby blown apart. As they made there way out the building the first plane hit. If the lazy *beep* went to work on time they would be dead now. If the WTC fell due to fires from the planes, how can bombs detonating before the planes hit be explaned?

As much as id love to believe it was terrorists, i cant. But surely more worrying than anything. This was the basis for the war in iraq. Iraq has still never been liked with it in anyway what so ever. I think it was... 18 Saudi's and 1 Afgan who were named responsible? So why invade Afghanistan for a couple of months? why invade iraq at all, never mind for 4 years. And as there were so many Saudi's involved. Why has Saudi Arabia never been invaded? or really, brought into it at all?

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The planes hit to high up the towers to cause a collapse


The towers survived both impacts, and would have survived indefinitely if not for the fires. WTC2 was hit lower than WTC1 and collapsed first, but these two facts are barely related, if at all. WTC2 fell first because the plane that hit it hit with about 50% more kinetic energy, destroyed more columns, and more core column, including a very important corner column, thus leading to a more sever redistribution of axial loads post impact, and its fuel was dispersed in a more concentrated area, leading to the the fire induced sagging of floors, and inward bowing of perimeter columns observed in the photo histories sooner.

Furthermore, a members likeliness to fail does not depend on its load, but its demand to capacity ratio, and so similar members will have similar DC ratios, since a good engineer is an efficient one.

The planes broke windows to feed the fire, caused structural damage, and knocked off fireproofing. Those are the main factors that come into play when analyzing the collapses, not the height of impact.

i remembered learning that cold burning fires produce thick black smoke as the fire is starved of fuel, and going out


What about oil wells burning freely in open air? Are they going out, or starved of fuel or oxygen?

Of course not, smoke coloration actually depends on the material being burned, and the offices contained plastics as well as carpets and furniture that will produce the observed smoke coloration.

Also, lets assume that you could somehow predict temperature by smoke coloration, there is no way to determine how hot the hottest parts of the fire are, nor can you determine the temperatures in the 'far field,' areas which are not exposed to flame, and may have even burned out, but are still exposed to hot gas and can reach very hot temps for very long times(see link)

http://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/1842/1980/1/Rein_Interflam07.pdf

1, it is a fact, only 3 buildings have ever collapsed 'due to fires' the WTC,1,2,7. and given that building built long before have survived worse fires. this seems...suspicious?


No, thats very very wrong, here is a list of some collapses due to fire, it does not include the Madrid Windsor building, in which the steel framed perimeter collapsed but the concrete core survived, the three kader toy factories which all collapsed in less than an hour, and the Charleston super sofa store:

http://www.haifire.com/presentations/Historical_Collapse_Survey.pdf

Also the WTC case is not a normal fire, ignoring structural damage from impact, the gash and the broken windows from the impact, thus providing extra ventilation and hotter fires, as well as the lost fireproofing make it an extraordinary circumstance. The same applies to WTC 7, although given the time it burned, fireproofing no longer matters.

The construction of the buildings also needs to be taken into account, the truss system in the towers is popular in the US but not in Europe, largely for fire protection issues, and in fact it was the trusses sagging and pulling in on the outer columns that lead to collapse.

For 7, the construction of the building was such that the failure of one column may have lead to the collapse of the whole building:

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf

2, wtc7 contained thousands of files related to investigations into illegal trading. convenient they dont exist now.


Its very inconvenient that they had to blow the building up instead of using professional services to destroy sensitive documents like a normal company would. Its also ihconvenient that SEC hard drives were recovered.

where was the wreckage from flight 93 and the pentagon?


http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/911pentagonflight77evidencesummary

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93shanksvillesummaryofevidence%2 Cman

but the seemingly only items to survive this massive crash, happens to be the evidence to incriminate a couple the 'terrorists'


all the evidence of the crash was posted, here are other items that survived crashes:

http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=21

4, I have a couple of friends who were working in a studio in WTC. They are both very intelligent people, not irrational or easily influenced and i trust what they say. They testify that there was a massive explosion in the basement, they were only a couple floors up and immediately made there way back down only to discover the lobby blown apart. As they made there way out the building the first plane hit. If the lazy *beep* went to work on time they would be dead now. If the WTC fell due to fires from the planes, how can bombs detonating before the planes hit be explaned?


If there time line is off by a mere fifteen minutes, they could have confused the second plane with the first.

When the planes struck, some of the jet fuel spilled down the elevator shafts and ignited flash fires on the mechanical floors and all the way down to the lobby. You can search for videos of 'backdraft' if you want to see the concept at work here, and what kind of power this phenomena has.

This testimony is corroborated by numerous witnesses, by the damage to the lobby, and the injuries to victims, who received burns, rather than the blunt trauma, or complete obliteration associated with being hit with the shock wave from an explosive.

18 Saudi's and 1 Afgan who were named


it was mostly saudis but the rest were a bunch of different nationalities. Saudi Arabia wasn't invaded because there is a difference between the saudi gov't and independent saudi citizens, and the saudi gov't was not considered to be involved in the plot, nor was it considered to be a regime that harbored terrorists.

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nd i remembered learning that cold burning fires produce thick black smoke as the fire is starved of fuel, and going out.

Wrong!

While it is true that flammable liquids produce black smoke, so does any petroleum-based product. The color of the initial flame and smoke might have been important in the 1940s and 1950s when our furniture was made of cotton and wood, but most furniture today is made of nylon, polyester, and polyurethane. Even wood fires, deprived of oxygen, will produce black smoke. According to NFPA 921, Paragraph 3.6:

“Smoke color is not necessarily an indicator of what is burning. While wood smoke from a well ventilated or fuel controlled wood fire is light colored or gray, the same fuel under low-oxygen conditions, or ventilation-controlled conditions in a post-flashover fire can be quite dark or black. [/red]Black smoke can also be produced by the burning of other materials including most plastics or ignitable liquids.”

Light smoke may indicate that there are no petroleum products burning. Black smoke
indicates nothing meaningful.[/red]
http://www.atslab.com/fire/PDF/IndicatorsOfTrouble.pdf


HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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1, it is a fact, only 3 buildings have ever collapsed 'due to fires' the WTC,1,2,7. and given that building built long before have survived worse fires. this seems...suspicious?

Wrong Again!

Contrary to popular belief September 11, 2001 was not the first time a steel framed building collapsed due to fire. Though the examples below are not high rise buildings, they make the point that fire alone can collapse a steel structure.
The McCormick Center in Chicago and the Sight and Sound Theater in Pennsylvania are examples of steel structures collapsing. The theater was fire protected using drywall and spray on material. A high rise in Philly didn't collapse after a long fire but firefighters evacuated the building when a pancake structural collapse was considered likely. Other steel-framed buildings partially collapsed due fires one after only 20 minutes.

The steel framed McCormick Center was at the time the World's largest exhibition center. It like the WTC used long steel trusses to create a large open space without columns. Those trusses were unprotected but of course much of the WTC lost it's fire protection due to the impacts.

"As an example of the damaging effect of fire on steel, in 1967, the original heavy steel-constructed McCormick Place exhibition hall in Chicago collapsed only 30 minutes after the start of a small electrical fire."

http://www.wconline.com/CDA/Archive/24ae78779d768010Vgn
VCM100000f932a

[Note this article has several comments from engineers who back the
WTC collapse theory.]

"The unprotected steel roof trusses failed early on in the fire"

http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/disasters/mccormick_fire.html


The McCormick Place fire "is significant because it illustrates the fact that steel-frame buildings can collapse as a result of exposure to fire. This is true for all types of construction materials, not only steel." Wrote Robert Berhinig, associate manager of UL's Fire Protection Division and a registered professional engineer. He also discusses UL's steel fire certification much more knowledgably than Kevin Ryan. He is an example of one more highly qualified engineer who supports the collapse theory.

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/02_d/berhinig.htm

From the FEMA report of the theater fire, my comments in [ ]
www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-097.pdf

On the morning of January 28, 1997, in the Lancaster County, Pennsylvania township of Strasburg, a fire caused the collapse of the state-of-the-art, seven year old Sight and Sound Theater and resulted in structural damage to most of the connecting buildings.
The theater was a total loss, valued at over $15 million.

pg 6/74

The theater was built of steel rigid frame construction to allow for the large open space of the auditorium, unobstructed by columns... The interior finish in the auditorium was drywall.

The stage storage area, prop assembly building, and prop maintenance building were protected with a sprayed-on fire resistant coating on all structural steel. The plans called for the coating to meet a two-hour fire resistance assembly rating. The sprayed-on coating, which was susceptible to damage from the movement of theater equipment, was protected by attaching plywood coverings on the columns to a height of eight feet.

The walls of the storage area beneath the stage were layered drywall to provide a two-hour fire protection rating for the mezzanine offices [the WTC used drywall as fire protection in the central core] , and sprayed-on fire-resistant coatings on the structural
steel columns and ceiling bar joists supporting the stage floor.
pg 15/74

The two theater employees told the State Police Fire Investigator that when they first discovered the fire they noticed that the sprayed-on fire proofing had been knocked off the underside of the stage floor bar joists and support steel. The fire proofing was hanging on the wire mesh used to hold the coating to the overhead. The investigation revealed that the construction company's removal of the stage floor covering down to the corrugated decking involved striking the floor hard enough to knock off the sprayed-on protection, exposing the structural steel and bar-joists in the storage area. [The theater's spray-on fireproofing was newer and more modern than at the WTC, The theater was only seven years old. If striking the floor during renovations was enough to dislodge it imagine the impact of a 767]

pg 16/74

Temperatures of 1000° F can cause buckling and temperatures of 1500° F can cause steel to lose strength and collapse. When the heat and hot gases reached the stage ceiling they extended horizontally into the auditorium, causing the roof to fail all the way to the lobby fire wall. The fire also extended horizontally from the stage to the elevated hallway, causing the structural steel to fail and buckle in the prop assembly and prop maintenance buildings

pg 17/74

Once the heat of the fire caused the structural steel to fail in the storage area (aided by the damage to the sprayed-on fire protection during renovation), interior firefighting became too hazardous to continue. The truck crews ventilating the roof noted metal
discoloration and buckling steel.

pg. 21/74

The two hour fire resistance-rated assembly in the storage area beneath the stage was damaged during the stage floor renovation, leaving the structural members unprotected from the ensuing fire.

pg. 26/74

Buildings constructed of steel should, in effect, be considered unprotected and capable of collapse from fire in as few as ten minutes. Fire resistant coatings sprayed onto structural steel are susceptible to damage from construction work.

The impact of fire and heat on structural steel members warrant extreme caution by firefighters.

pg. 36/74
Unless the steel members are cooled with high-volume hose streams, the fire's heat can rapidly cause steel to lose its strength and contribute to building collapse.
pg. 37/74

Other Fires

In February 1991 a fire broke out in One Meridian Plaza a 38 story office building in Philadelphia. The building was built during the same period as the WTC and had spray-on fire protection on it's steel frame. Despite not suffering impact damage authorities were worried it might collapse.

"All interior firefighting efforts were halted after almost 11 hours of uninterrupted fire in the building. Consultation with a structural engineer and structural damage observed by units operating in the building led to the belief that there was a possibility of a pancake structural collapse of the fire damaged
floors."

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/txt/publications/tr-049.txt

About 2 years later the NYFD was concerned that a steel framed building that partially collapsed during after a gas explosion might collapse entirely due to the resulting fire.

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/TR-068.pdf


Part of a floor of an unprotected steel frame building collapsed in Brackenridge, Pennsylvania, December 20, 1991. Killing 4 volunteer firemen
http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/TR-061.pdf


Part of the roof of a steel framed school in Virginia collapsed about 20 minutes after fire broke out

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/tr-135.pdf


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2, wtc7 contained thousands of files related to investigations into illegal trading. convenient they dont exist now.

Yea, People lose family photos in fires too, they burn.

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where was the wreckage from flight 93 and the pentagon? No matter what side you are on, no one can deny...there is just nothing there.

WRONG - PENTAGON

These are fairly convincing, look at the top one of the plane, then look at the others and go back to the top and see where they fit in.

http://www.twf.org/News/Y2005/0307-Fragment.jpg

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/13.jpg


Both the "C" and other debris carried.

http://www.911myths.com/html/pentagon_18.html

how would a Boeing 757 with wings, a tail, and engines create a plain hole with no other obvious scars?

All right here, though a plane hitting a reinforced building at that speed is going to be in parts....

http://www.oilempire.us/pentagon-photos.html

Great short computer modeling of flight 77 and Pentagon damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8

More good stuff

Wing Scars on the Building in the Link Below

http://www.oilempire.us/pentagon-photos.html

MUCH MORE, Click on each picture and there are about 20 in a slide show.

http://www.911myths.com/html/757_wreckage.html

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.ht ml

http://rense.com/general32/phot.htm

I also have some pictures from the Moussaoui trial of passenger bodies burned very badly but I won't post those unless you want them.

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/photos/index.html#parts

AND..............

Two people on American Airlines Flight 77 made phone calls to contacts on the ground. At 09:12 EDT, flight attendant Renee May called her mother, Nancy May, in Las Vegas. During the call, which lasted nearly two minutes, May said her flight was being hijacked by six individuals and they had been moved to the rear of the plane. May also asked her mother to contact American Airlines, which she and her husband promptly did. American Airlines was already aware of the hijacking.

Passenger Barbara K. Olson called her husband, United States Solicitor General Theodore Olson at the Department of Justice twice to tell him about the hijacking and to report that the passengers and pilots were held in the back of the plane. After the first call was cut off, Theodore Olson contacted the command center at the Department of Justice, and tried unsuccessfully to contact Attorney General John Ashcroft. Olson called her husband back, and asked him "What should I tell the pilot?"

Investigators have identified remains of 184 people who were aboard American Airlines Flight 77 or inside the Pentagon, including those of the five hijackers, but they say it is impossible to match what is left with the five missing people.

A team of more than 100 workers at a military morgue at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware used several methods to identify remains but primarily relied on DNA testing and dental records. They formally ended their effort Friday after concluding that some remains were too badly burned to identify.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A61202-2001Nov20?language=pri nter


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where was the wreckage from flight 93 and the pentagon? No matter what side you are on, no one can deny...there is just nothing there.

Wrong - Shanksville

95 percent of Untied 93 was recovered

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/24/inv.pennsylvania.site/index.html
United 93 plane parts and passenger articles.

http://www.911myths.com/html/flight_93_photos.html

http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/united93/planepart1.jpg

http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/united93/debris1.jpg

http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/united93/debris2.jpg

http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/united93/personaleffects_lg.jp g

http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/united93/talignani_license.jpg

http://americanhistory.si.edu/militaryhistory/collection/object.asp?ID =28

http://pittsburgh.about.com/library/graphics/seatbelt.jpg

And a highjacker passport
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/08/01/cia.hijacker/index.html

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/timeline/people/twojarrahs.jpg


The hemlocks caught fire. The jet fuel pooled. The wind played with paper scraps: a Bible page, some bank-machine receipts, the corner of a business card.
Fox stepped over a seat back. He saw a wiring harness, and a piston. None of the other pieces was bigger than a TV remote.

He saw three chunks of torn human tissue. He swallowed hard.
"You knew there were people there, but you couldn't see them," he says, home now, the kids playing in the background. "You try not to let it sink into you too much."

He'd assumed it was an accident. A Cessna, maybe. A spark in the fuel tank. A stuck rudder. He didn't connect it to the other planes, still crashing on cable TV.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_90823.html

In the grisly accounting of a jetliner crash, it comes down to pounds: The people on Flight 93 weighed a total of about 7,500 pounds. Miller supervised an intensive effort to gather their remains, some flung hundreds of yards. In the end, just 600 pounds of remains were collected; of these, 250 pounds could be identified by DNA testing and returned to the families of the passengers and crew.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/columnists/dave_barry/3972 571.ht

The remains and belongings of 40 people who died when United Airlines Flight 93 crashed into a western Pennsylvania field Sept. 11 will be returned to their survivors, the county coroner said.

Officials identified remains through fingerprints, dental records and DNA. They had been stored at a temporary morgue in Somerset. [/blue]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/02/26/national/main502203.shtml

Those items, such as a wedding ring and other jewelry, photos, credit cards, purses and their contents, shoes, a wallet and currency, are among seven boxes of identified personal effects salvaged from the site. They sit in an El Segundo, Calif., mortuary and will be returned to victims' families in February.

"We have some property for most passengers," said Craig Hendrix, a funeral coordinator and a personal effects administrator with Douglass Air Disaster Funeral Coordinators, a company often contacted by airlines after devastating crashes.

Since receiving the personal effects of Flight 93 passengers from the FBI in early November, Douglass has been preparing the items for return. For example, about two weeks ago, FBI agents presented the wedding ring and wallet of passenger Andrew Garcia to his wife, Dorothy, in Portola Valley, Calif.

Around Thanksgiving, Jerry and Beatrice Guadagno of Ewing, N.J., received word that their son Richard's credentials and badge from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service had been found by the FBI at the crash site.
"It was practically intact," Richard's sister, Lori, said of the credentials, which were returned in their wallet. "It just looked like it wasn't damaged or hadn't gone through much of anything at all, which is so bizarre and ironic.

Hendrix said the personal effects that survived the crash were ejected from the plane at the moment of impact.

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011230flight931230p3.asp

WING MARKS
http://physics911.ca/gallery2/d/7325-6/pacrash.jpg


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I have a couple of friends who were working in a studio in WTC. They are both very intelligent people, not irrational or easily influenced and i trust what they say. They testify that there was a massive explosion in the basement, they were only a couple floors up and immediately made there way back down only to discover the lobby blown apart. As they made there way out the building the first plane hit. If the lazy *beep* went to work on time they would be dead now. If the WTC fell due to fires from the planes, how can bombs detonating before the planes hit be explaned?

All other reports is the lobby was destroyed by a chunk of one of the towers long after plane impact and during collapse of one of the twins. Name them, bring them forward, lets see justice or are we just to take the word of unnamed sources?


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[deleted]

Jet fuel burns at 825 Degrees C.. Not hot enough to melt steel, it would need to be +1525 Degrees C to do that.. However, steel loses 50% of it's strength at 648 Degrees C.

How many tons of concrete and steel were above the impact points?

So the tons of steel fell down on itself and fell pretty much right in line with physics.

It's not a Jinga pile or a pillar that would fall sideways.. It fell straight down like you would expect.

The air coming out the sides weren't explosions.. It was air being compressed by the falling floors shooting out.

Your question is simple and not as deep as you think.
No one is avoiding the truth.
Your argument is a fallacy.

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Jet fuel burns at 825 Degrees C.. Not hot enough to melt steel, it would need to be +1525 Degrees C to do that.. However, steel loses 50% of it's strength at 648 Degrees C.

The official version never required melting steel, though i think you may just be quoting someone else. It just needed to weaken to the point it could not support the load.

vaju - Again a two digit number, brainwatched zombies never change their behavior.

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Just to correct you here...The fuel could not have made its way to the lobby. The elevators in the WTC towers were in 3 different stacks. You couldn't go from the top floor to the lobby in one elevator. So the fuel would have had to get out of the elevator, flow to another elevator and go down that shaft, only to exit once again and make its way to another elevator.,.

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The fuel could not have made its way to the lobby. The elevators in the WTC towers were in 3 different stacks.

Not actually and tons of survivors reported the jet fuel gushing down #50.

The #50 freight elevator shaft, which is continuous from the impact zones to the lowest basement level, B6.

alfa3647 -Oh I can read englsh.

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The service elevators, including #50, ran all the way from the basement to the roof.

And those "three different stacks"? They were on top of each other.

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"The collapse of wtc7 looked exactly like ..........(fill in the blank).........."

Your mom. On a friday night.

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You idiots have no proof...where's your proof?

How can you present proof on an internet forum?


How do YOU present proof on an internet forum?

Who do you megalomaniacs think you are?

Do you even know what a megalomaniac is?

Stop being sucker fish all your lives and swim out from under big daddy's fin and have a look around yourself. Sure you might get eaten...there's a lot of jungle out there! But duuuudes.....wake up little snoozies...smell the smellin' salts!

Uh... swim out form under daddy's big fin... there's a lot of jungle out there? If you don't know what a metaphor is, you shouldn't try to use it.

Come on...I wont laugh...admit it! wtc7...come on fellas...you can do it! We'll start easy...what did the collapse look like? Nice and easy question for you....

Come on...be brave, you can do it!


Do you have the guts to look at actual physical evidence? Come on baby, be groovy and do it! Look at REAL science, playa!

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Come on...I wont laugh...admit it! wtc7...come on fellas...you can do it! We'll start easy...what did the collapse look like? Nice and easy question for you....

Come on...be brave, you can do it!


well, countless goofbags have said it looks like a controlled demolition, but here is what a controlled demolition actually looks like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ng5qwtR59A

notice that there are numerous deafeningly loud bangs immediately before collapse, there are numerous flashes before collapse, and there are sharp puffs coming out of windows, of course, before collapse.

None of this is observed in WTC 7, and in fact, since in a CD, windows, doors, and non load bearing elements are stripped, we would expect to see numerous windows blown out from overpressure before collapse in the WTC case as well.

The only thing we observe are crashes, after collapse initiation, which would be expected when a steel structure collapses, and air forced out after collapse has initiated from the floors being compressed.

Of course, this precludes the notion of CD, unless you want to tell me that the building collapsed before they blew it up.

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[deleted]

wtc7 is an extraordinarily uniform collapse isn't it
A collapse that proceeds in opposite directions virtually simultaneously and causes heavy damage to buildings across the street is "extraordinarily uniform"? And how do you account for the distinct lack of light & noise when compared to the video in the above link? Stealth demolition charges that defy the laws of physics?

It's not and you can't, so you laugh. I guess all that laughing at physics and evidence helps you sleep.

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[deleted]

you're deluded beyond all hope.
Speak for yourself. Oh, sorry, you are.

Your laughter is nothing but a defense mechanism, and a pathetic one at that. Try to stop laughing long enough to learn something about the physics of demolition charges.

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lol...wtc7 is an extraordinarily uniform collapse isn't it. You can't defend it.


Which part is funny? The fact that your explosives would have to survive shock, heat and compression, which explosives can't do, the fact that there were no booms, flashes or blown out windows before collapse initiation, which explosions will do, or the fact that the collapse was not uniform?

The east penthouse fell several seconds before the rest of the building, indicating that the three columns, or maybe even as few as one of the columns, that were supporting it failed first. When this happens that portion of the structure drops downward, and pulls on the rest of the structure as it falls, and thus adjacent columns fail in shear. This is observed as the roof collapses, indicating a core failure, before global collapse occurs. Building across the street were also damaged from the debris of this collapse.

East penthouse failure, core failure, global failure, debris across the street...does that sound uniform?

But if you would like to defend your controlled demo nonsense, explain how your explosive survived shock, heat, and compression in order to explode silently, invisibly, and without producing a pressure wave.

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[deleted]

No...it's just that the building fell down like an elevator.

Solid science there. What about the Freemasons?

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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No...it's just that the building fell down like an elevator.

Check mate


erm, thats called progressive collapse. Like I explained the failure originated at a very local spot, and failures propagated horizontally until the core failed, and then global instability ensued.

The only way the building could have fallen after global instability is in the manner observed, since, as a steel structure, it is made of thousands of individual members, with their own yeild limits in tension/compression and in shear. Thus the building will not be allowed to rotate more than a few degrees since and hinge that the building would need to rotate on will break readily, and the horizontal forces needed to knock the building over will be to small by orders of magnitude.

If you would like to shock the world and show that the buildings should have fallen some other way, go ahead and make your case.

otherwise, describe how your explosives can survive conditions that explosives can't survive, and explain why observed effects expected from explosives are not observed.

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lol...wtc7 is an extraordinarily uniform collapse isn't it. You can't defend it.

Not really.

symmetrical, On it’s Own Footprint?

WTC7 debris in the street.

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/images/image098.jpg

(Complements blfsweet6) Better photo of WTC7 debris in the street. Kind of looks like it fell sideways into the street. Looks like it may have nicked the building below it (look at the roof and watch the below video, not sure)

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc7pile.jpg


HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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Looks like it may have nicked the building below it
It did. Fiterman Hall, a CUNY building at 30 West Broadway, took heavy damage when 7 fell. That damage, combined with mold and dust, is why the building is being deconstructed and replaced.
http://www.lowermanhattan.info/construction/project_updates/fiterman_h all_39764.aspx
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/didwtc7fallintoa%E2%80%9Ctidypile%E2%8 0%9Dinitsownfootpr

The bottom floors of the Verizon building also took heavy damage when 7 fell into it.
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/0831.jpg/0831-full.jpg
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/WTC_ch7.htm

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It did. Fiterman Hall, a CUNY building at 30 West Broadway, took heavy damage when 7 fell. That damage, combined with mold and dust, is why the building is being deconstructed and replaced.

Thanks a ton, I always wondered about that but did not want to shoot from the hip, so much for on it's won footprint. (Added to my cut and paste and credited)

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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[deleted]

I've never bothered about where it fell down...the building fell down with amazing symmetry and the uniformness of an elevator. vvvvvvoooomp. Straight down

But it DIDN'T fall straight down. That's the point. If it fell straight down, the debris wouldn't cover such a large area.

Now if you fellas want to hurrumph and carry on and justify that, then you are nothing short of kooks and crazies.

Yep, we're crazy nuts that insist on using scientific and engineering principles to explain what happened. Put us all in straight jackets.

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I've never bothered about where it fell down....footprints and all this other crap you insane nutjobs spurt everywhere is a diversion from the simple fact that the building fell down with amazing symmetry and the uniformness of an elevator. vvvvvvoooomp. Straight down. Like the coming down of some final curtain at a sick magic show.

You have never bothered with where it fell down but if fell straight down? Hows that work? Not too well.

-----------------------

symmetrical, On it’s Own Footprint?

WTC7 debris in the street.

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/images/image098.jpg

http://www.thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/wtc7/wtc_aerial.jpg

http://www.pernondimenticare.it/images/ny1600.jpg
Nice aerial view with debris in the street (Credit to ta2me92704)

(Complements blfsweet6) Better photo of WTC7 debris in the street. Kind of looks like it fell sideways into the street.

It hit Fiterman Hall on the way down. (Credit Tom Veil)

http://www.lowermanhattan.info/construction/project_updates/fiterman_h all_39764.aspx

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc7pile.jpg

More damage outside the footprint (Credit Tom Veil)

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/didwtc7fallintoa%E2%80%9Ctidypile%E2%8 0%9Dinitsownfootpr

FLIP BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN ONE AND TWO A FEW TIMES

Photo 1 WTC Leaning (look at the air between it and the building to the right.)

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc7f1.jpg

Photo 2 WTC7 Leaning more,( look at the air between it and the building to the right.)

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc7f2.jpg

Photo 3 WTC7 at the end of it’s 18 second fall.

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc7f3.jpg



Video of it falling to the left

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewf3zYS-QkA&search=WTC%207


Photo right after the fall.

And now comes the most important and telling fact in this photo. Note the west side (Right side in this photo) of the north face is pointing toward the east side (Left side of this photo) where the penthouse was. What caused this? It would not be unreasonable to expect the building to fall toward the path of least resistance. The path of least resistance in this case would be the hole in the back of the building and the hole left by the penthouse. Since the penthouse was on the east and the 20 story hole in the middle, that would make the east and middle the path of least resistance. The conspiracy sites agree with this theory but say it never happened. They say the fact that it didn't happen helps prove controlled demolition. But you see it happen here... What will they say now?

"But the building doesn't look like it fell over, it fell "In it's own foot print" you might ask. That's because it is impossible for a 47 story steel building to fall over like that. It's not a small steel reinforced concrete building like the ones shown as *Examples* of buildings which fell over. Building 7 is more like the towers, made up of many pieces put together. It's not so much as a solid block as those steel reinforced concrete buildings.

The evidence supports the NIST contention that the building collapse progressed from the penthouse out as columns weakened by the fires. The slow sinking of the penthouses, indicating the internal collapse of the building behind the visible north wall, took 8.2 seconds according to a NIST preliminary report. Seismograph trace of the collapse of WTC 7 indicates that parts of the building were hitting the ground for 18 seconds. This means the collapse took at least 18 seconds, of which only the last approximately 15 seconds are visible in videos: 8 seconds for the penthouses and 7 seconds for the north wall to come down.


HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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I've never bothered about where it fell down....footprints and all this other crap you insane nutjobs spurt everywhere is a diversion from the simple fact that the building fell down with amazing symmetry and the uniformness of an elevator. vvvvvvoooomp. Straight down. Like the coming down of some final curtain at a sick magic show.

Now if you fellas want to hurrumph and carry on and justify that, then you are nothing short of kooks and crazies. Next thing you will expect us to believe is that you were probed by aliens last night and then asked if you would like to travel to their home planet Zendor, in their intergalactic spaceship.


Are you retarded? I have described how the observed collapse is wholly consistent with a phenomenon called progressive collapse, it is also called disproportionate collapse.

The collapse is inconsistent with demolition because there are no booms, no flashes, and no blown out windows before collapse initiation, aside from the fact that explosives can't survive the conditions they would be made to perform under, as I have also pointed out. If you would like to describe why this is not true, then go ahead.

Consistent with progressive collapse, inconsistent with demolition, couldn't be any easier to understand than that.

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This is exactly my point. We get so caught up argueing if the buildings were pulled or if they went down themselves that we totally ignore the other questions. Who were the hijackers? Who were they trained by? Who the hell is supposed to believe that an intact passport of one of the hijackers conventiently survived the destruction?

They must be very pleased at all the tail chasing we do on here.

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Who the hell is supposed to believe that an intact passport of one of the hijackers conventiently survived the destruction?

MAN, LOTS OF INSIDE JOBS HERE!



ONE


Nothing was expected to survive the breakup of the space shuttle Columbia over the Southwest three months ago. Imagine NASA’s surprise upon opening five canisters that had been found in the debris field — some of the 78,000 pieces of wreckage recovered — and in each, discovering a thriving colony of experimental worms.

The tiny creatures, no larger than a speck of fuzz on a sweater, were part of a study put together by NASA Ames Research Center and Stanford University Medical Center researcher Stuart Kim, PhD, associate professor of developmental biology and of genetics, to see how the worms fared in space.

Tiny C. elegans worms like this one play a critical role in science. Canisters full of the worms, part of a Stanford research project, managed to survive the Columbia shuttle disaster three months ago. Photo: Courtesy of Stuart Kim
"I was very surprised they survived," said Kim of the worms he sent into space. "I just thought that the explosion would melt them and then they would either freeze or burn to death on the way down from the upper atmosphere. Then the impact to the Earth didn’t shatter the canister and spill them all out. That’s just remarkable."

The worms hit the ground with an impact 2,295 times the force of Earth's gravity,
according to a research paper in December's issue of the journal
The extraordinary worms are called C. elegans, and are one of the cornerstones upon which animal studies are based (the others being mice, fruit flies and yeast).

http://news.com.com/2061-11204_3-6016657.html

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2003/may7/worm.html

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

TWO

HOUSTON, Texas (CNN) -- Human remains found in a field in Texas late Saturday are believed to be those of at least one of the seven astronauts who perished aboard space shuttle Columbia when it disintegrated nearly 40 miles above the Earth.

Along with the remains, a charred NASA patch and a flight helmet were found on a rural road in Hemphill, east of Nacogdoches, Texas, according to The Associated Press. (Full story)

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/02/01/shuttle.columbia/

The patch... Not really burned is it?

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/photo/2003-02/6472139.jpg

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

THREE

Rescuers who reached the wreckage of an airliner that crashed into a glacier-capped Colombian volcano found shards of metal, tattered clothing, photographs and burned money, but no sign of survivors.

"It looked like the airplane exploded," said Marcillo, holding a chunk of the plane in his hand. "There were pieces of flesh. The people were unrecognizable."


Those who had been to the crash site near the volcano's summit reported seeing wreckage strewn over a wide area and dismembered bodies. Local residents who participated in Tuesday's search returned with pieces of the plane and the passport of one of the victims - a Colombian nun.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/28/world/main325854.shtml

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

FOUR

NEW YORK -- A small plane carrying New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle and his flight instructor slammed into a 40-story apartment building Wednesday, killing both in a crash that rained flaming debris onto the sidewalks and briefly raised fears of another terrorist attack.

Residents were also allowed back into their apartments Thursday, except for the 29th through 31st floors, where most of the apartments were gutted by the fire and a six-story scorch mark marred the red brick.

Hersman said debris was scattered everywhere at the crash scene, including aircraft parts and headsets on the ground. The propeller separated from the engine. Investigators also obtained the pilot's log book.
Lidle's passport was found on the street, according to a federal official, speaking to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2621860

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

FIVE

"Orange County, CA., Sept. 11 - Lisa Anne Frost was 22 and had just graduated from Boston University in May 2001 with two degrees and multiple academic and service honors. She had worked all summer in Boston before coming home, finally, to California to start her new life. The Rancho Santa Margarita woman was on United Flight 175 on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, when it became the second plane to slam into the World Trade Center...

Her parents, Tom and Melanie Frost, have spent two years knowing they will never understand why.

A few days before the first anniversary of our daughter's murder, we were notified that they had found a piece of her in the piles and piles of gritty rubble of the World Trade Center that had been hauled out to Staten Island. It was Lisa's way, we believe, of telling us she wasn't lost.

In February, the day of the Columbia tragedy, we got word they'd found her United Airlines Mileage Plus card. It was found very near where they'd found a piece of her right hip. We imagine that she used the card early on the morning of Sept. 11 to get on the plane and just stuck it in her back pocket, probably her right back pocket, instead of in her purse. They have found no other personal effects".

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:tI2PQRqfJiIJ:www.msnbc.com/local/MYOC/M324557.asp

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

SIX

Flight 77

"During an interview earlier this week, Koch delicately handled eerie mementos of the crash found during cleanup: Whittington's battered driver's license... a burnt luggage tag and a wedding ring lie on a book dedicated to those lost in the events of Sept. 11, 2001. The wedding ring belonged to Ruth's daughter and the luggage tag belonged to one her granddaughters."
http://onlineathens.com/stories/091104/new_20040911030.shtml

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

SEVEN AND EIGHT

The New York Times said at least two items of mail on the 9/11 planes were recovered:

On Oct. 12, it arrived inside a second envelope at Mrs. Snyder's modest white house on Main Street here, and the instant she took it out and saw it, she says, ''chills just went over me.'' It was singed and crumpled. A chunk was ripped out, giving the bottom of the envelope she had sent the look of a jagged skyline. Mrs. Snyder's lyrical script had blurred into the scorched paper. The stamp, depicting a World War II sailor embracing a woman welcoming him home, was intact.

Along with the letter was a note: ''To whom it may concern. This was found floating around the street in downtown New York. I am sorry if you suffered any loss in this tragedy. Sincerely, a friend in New York!''

Since then, Mrs. Snyder, a customer service representative at a grocery store, has discovered that she has one of only two pieces of mail known to have been recovered from the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center. At least one auction house has contacted her, saying she could sell the letter for tens of thousands of dollars.

One Letter's Odyssey Helps Mend a Wound
New York Times
December 20, 2001

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

NINE

Satam Al Suqami’s Pasport

TEN
The post card from the Hindenburg. (CREDIT TO Tom_Veil)
Hindenburg Crash Mail
The German zeppelin Hindenburg made sixty-three flights, including ten roundtrips to the United States in 1936. It met tragedy May 6, 1937.
This postcard was part of the mail salvaged from the wreckage. The U.S. Post Office Department enclosed the fragile, charred remains in a glassine envelope and officially sealed it before delivery to the addressee.


http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/museum/1d_Hindenburg.html

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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All of your examples are very different to the events that happened on that day. Planes and shuttles ripping and exploding apart. Worms protected in canisters. Hindenburg burning. All very different to the events on 911.

So one INTACT passport of a hijacker and two badly damaged letters were the only things recovered from the planes. All very convenient.

If it smells like bull *beep* it probably is bull *beep*

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All very different to the events on 911.

So one INTACT passport of a hijacker and two badly damaged letters were the only things recovered from the planes. All very convenient.


Explain how these are so very different, explain the Columbia explosion and the patch and it's distinction from the events of 9/11.


Tons of things were recovered some right in the post, read slow.

United Airlines Mileage Plus card

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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All very different to the events on 911.

So one INTACT passport of a hijacker and two badly damaged letters were the only things recovered from the planes. All very convenient.

Explain how these are so very different, explain the Columbia explosion and the patch and it's distinction from the events of 9/11.


I agree, these events are not different at all. They are examples of small objects surviving fiery disasters. It seems weird, but it definitely happens.



"youtube evidence" is important - ivan sapp

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[deleted]

Fish don't live in the jungle....

What's all this shouting? We'll have no trouble here

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[deleted]

I just have one small little question. How and why did that female BBC reporter, report on live TV, that WTC 7 had collapsed more then 20 min before it actually collapsed? You can clearly see the building still standing behind her during the report. Check it on youtube or watch this - www.zeitgeist.com

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I just have one small little question. How and why did that female BBC reporter, report on live TV, that WTC 7 had collapsed more then 20 min before it actually collapsed? You can clearly see the building still standing behind her during the report. Check it on youtube or watch this - www.zeitgeist.com


There was chaos, confusion, reports that the building was unstable and expected to collapse coming from first responders all day, and reports that other buildings had suffered partial collapses.

Its not surprising that there were mistakes like that.

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I see. But then what about that all the buildings that collapsed were leased by the same guy? What about the beams that were found that looked like they had been cut sideways that those people say were blasted by thermite charges? I am not an expert on this and have just recently come across this theory that 9/11 was a inside job. And still after reading all the arguments the evidence sugesting it was a inside job sound more likely and propable then that it wasnt.
Also the gains the american goverment(corporations?) have made since 9/11 politicaly and economicaly is a more likely motive then terrorists fighting for a religious/political cause. The terrorist have gained nothing since the attack.

I know you gave a lot of explanations about how the buildings collapsed and the reasons it looked the way it did. But it does honestly look very much like a controled demolition to me! Maybe you should watch it again.


http://piratenews.org/wtc-anglecut2-400.jpg

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But then what about that all the buildings that collapsed were leased by the same guy?
They weren't. You're forgetting about the Greek Orthodox Church that was destroyed by debris from WTC 2.
What about the beams that were found that looked like they had been cut sideways that those people say were blasted by thermite charges?
Thermite doesn't cut sideways and the survivors from Stairway B indicate none had been used. Superheated air from thermite would have precluded any survivors. Steven Jones' own findings aren't consistent with thermite, which is why he invented superthermite.
The terrorist have gained nothing since the attack.
Sure they have; they gained support for 3/11 & 7/7.
it does honestly look very much like a controled demolition to me!
That's normal. The same force was at work: gravity. But when one takes into account how far debris was flung from the towers and WTC 7 one realizes that these collapses were anything but controlled and too quiet for a demolition.

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Madrid 3/11 and London 7/7 are gains? How? They are just more terrorist attacks.
I didnt mean that thermite cuts sideways. But the way thermite blasts are set on the beams is sideways to make the parts of the building slide.

Lets say hypotheticaly that i wanted to blow up the buildings in a controlled demolition BUT make it LOOK LIKE they got demolished because of terrorists crashing planes into the buildings.
Would i make it look like a controled demolition? Or would i make it look like the buildings collapsed due to the planes crashing into them? Could i make the blasts smaller so they wouldnt be noticable? Could i plan the controled demolition to look like its out of control, with some pieces flying here and there? Would i care about what happens to a little church when i dont care about what happens to the people in the wtc buildings?

What about the military training operations that were going on on 9/11 and the training operations going on on the day of the London train station blasts IN THE SAME STATION that was attacked?

I am sorry to tell you this, since i enjoy american products and inventions on a daily basis and am fairly impressed by your acomplishments. But this is what the rest of the world thinks of the current situation in america, including me: you americans are fat, dumb and ready for the slaughter house. Are you going to go quitly and blindly to your fates?

Two words worth a thought or two = Patriot Act. Are you enjoyng it?

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Madrid 3/11 and London 7/7 are gains? How? They are just more terrorist attacks.

Right! And the goal of terrorist attacks? The goal is to spread terror. Therefore, they were successful.

Lets say hypotheticaly that i wanted to blow up the buildings in a controlled demolition BUT make it LOOK LIKE they got demolished because of terrorists crashing planes into the buildings.

Let's not, because that's ridiculous.

Would i make it look like a controled demolition? Or would i make it look like the buildings collapsed due to the planes crashing into them?

I thought you said it DID look like a demolition? Now it doesn't?

Could i make the blasts smaller so they wouldnt be noticable?

No, you could not. If they were smaller, they wouldn't do the job.

I am sorry to tell you this, since i enjoy american products and inventions on a daily basis and am fairly impressed by your acomplishments. But this is what the rest of the world thinks of the current situation in america, including me: you americans are fat, dumb and ready for the slaughter house.

One of the best things about being American is that we don't give a rat's behind what anyone thinks of us. If you think we're fat, dumb and ready for the slaughter house, why are you impressed by our accomplishments? You make no sense.

Two words worth a thought or two = Patriot Act. Are you enjoyng it?

I hate to burst your bubble, but the Patriot Act has no impact on our day to day lives.

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(I dont know how to do the curvy text thing, pls tell me)

" Right! And the goal of terrorist attacks? The goal is to spread terror. Therefore, they were successful. "

The goal is not to spread terror. Terror is the tool they use to try get what they want. Terrorists dont kill people for fun!

"I thought you said it DID look like a demolition? Now it doesn't? "

It does so to me, but as you pointed out earlier, i am no expert in this field.
But it is logical to think that if some one would do this, then they would NOT want it too look like a controled demolision, right?

"No, you could not. If they were smaller, they wouldn't do the job."

You could use padding to hide the explosions or make them smaller, you could use explosives on some of the beams, just enough to weaken them so the planes crashing in and the fire would do the rest.
As i said before, i am not an expert, but it doesnt take an expert to figure out that this is all very propable with the right connections and enough money to spend. Add the motive of the american goverment to this ecuation along with the diffrent companys profiting from the war on terror and then it is not only propable but very likely.

"I hate to burst your bubble, but the Patriot Act has no impact on our day to day lives."

It doesnt untill it does my friend!

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The goal is not to spread terror. Terror is the tool they use to try get what they want.
The goal is to recruit more support for what they want. More support means more members; more members means more terror.
You could use padding to hide the explosions or make them smaller, you could use explosives on some of the beams, just enough to weaken them so the planes crashing in and the fire would do the rest.
And count on the planes to hit in exactly the right spot. That in itself does not pass Occam's Razor.

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You could use padding to hide the explosions or make them smaller


how do you propose this could happen?

you could use explosives on some of the beams, just enough to weaken them so the planes crashing in and the fire would do the rest.


First, if you concede only some of the columns needed to be taken out by explosives, and the rest could be taken out by aircraft and fire, wouldn't you think it is much safer and less risky to get rid of the explosives entirely, and let the fires and planes do ALL of the work?

Second, when are you proposing these charges be fired?

As i said before, i am not an expert, but it doesnt take an expert to figure out that this is all very propable with the right connections and enough money to spend. Add the motive of the american goverment to this ecuation along with the diffrent companys profiting from the war on terror and then it is not only propable but very likely.


This sounds like a massive conspiracy you are proposing. Approximately how many people do you think would have to have intimate knowledge of this plot, to plan, execute, and cover it up? So far there are the actual perpetrators, scientists, cleanup crews, the demo companies and tons more. If you could arrive at an approximate number that would be great though.

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[deleted]

Heck, you tools can't even admit it LOOKED like a controlled demolition, such is the extent of your delusion.


I will admit it looks like a controlled demolition when you point out the flashes, the bangs, and the blown out windows that would be observed in a demolition. Until you do that, your line of arguementation is nothing more than a fallacy, specifically affirming the consequent.

If you don't know what that is, the classic example is "I get wet when it rains, and I am wet now, therefore it is raining"

This is obviously dead wrong, since rain is only one possibility among many for the causing the dampness.

Fire clearly causes buildings to fall strait down, as you can see in this brick apartment in russia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p22OkclAU3o

Your arguementation is fallacious because you are claiming that CD is the only thing that can account for the observed collapse, when I have explained that this is false. You are even so deluded to believe in CD in the absence of bangs, flashes, or blown out windows before collapse initiation, and you have even managed to convince yourself that the explosives would survive a seven hour fire, as well as surviving shock and compression, which they can't.

In summary, you are a retard.

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Heck, you tools can't even admit it LOOKED like a controlled demolition, such is the extent of your delusion.

And you're so deluded that you can't admit you have no idea of what you're talking about.

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[deleted]

Wow, More youtube science, I saw a cloud that looked like a Bunny once, I guess it really was.

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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True considering that building fell sideways and only partly collapsed.

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Did it look like a cd?

It met some of the requirements but not all. Much as a scientific crash test of an automoblile is in fact a car crash but a random car crash is not a scientific crash test.

Here is a lesson for you young padawan:

In a CD the building falls down, straight down, all at once. (IE not progressively, from the top down, such as the twin towers.) It also falls more or less symetrically. The reason for this all at once, symmetrical collapse is that the building supports are taken out at it's base, intelligently, by experts.

Now if something were to severe some of those same lower supports, but less intelligently, then we might expect to see a rough approximation of this all at once, symmetrical collapse but there would be key differences. However, to the untrained observer, it would look like THEIR IDEA of a CD. Though it would not actually look like, nor be, a controlled demolition.

This is exactly what we observe in the collpase of 7. The differences have all been explained to you so I won't go over them again.




David Shayler, righteous CHAV!!!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXQikj-C1tk

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Why do we even bother arguing about all this rubbish anyway. There are so many other questions that are more important. Who were the terrorists? Who were they funded and trained by? Why did the government know about the threat but do nothing? Why did they fly out the bin ladens immediately after the attack? etc etc. These are the real questions that point the finger directly at the government.

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The terrorists are Muslim extremists, plain and simple, they hate us, our support of Israel, and our presence in the middle east, not to mention our modern Western ways which violate their ideas of religion and morality. This they have made perfectly clear, before, during, and after the 911 era. There is NO DOUBT about this. There is NO DOUBT of their willingness to launch suicide attacks. Osama is a man of means and influence and lots of training and his network is large. Their fanatical devotion has made it possible to inspire and fund all of this from a great distance.

The only credible connection to the US was way back when the Soviets were in Afghanistan. Governments have at all times formed alliances which were useful at a time but which later fell apart for various reasons. We were 'friends' with Saddam once too. The other so-called 'links' are murky at best, and have many alternate explanations aside form 'conspiracy'.

Why did we 'know about' the threat and do nothing? They had a vague outline of many possible attacks which could have come at many possible times. Hindsight is always 20/20. Getting a big country which has been immune to terrorist attack forever to suddenly turn itself upside down with precaution is a tall order. If they knew enough to have rightfully been spurred out of this inertia, but didn't, there is no evidence that this was anything but the usual incompetence wee have come to expect. We do not live in a perfect world.

Could it have been in the back of their mind that a terrorist attack might be a 'good thing' to either blast us out of a false sense of complacency, or, more nefariously, to kick start the PNAC/new Pearl Harbor scenario. Sure, maybe, but there is no evidence this affectd their actions. Get some and we'll talk.

When 'acting dumb and lazy' is all you need to do to effect a LIHOP light it's going to be damn hard to prove anything.



David Shayler, righteous CHAV!!!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXQikj-C1tk

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Immune to terrorist attack?????? What was the first bombing of the WTC then? Oklahoma? And why did they do a training senario regarding that exact type of event.

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Immune to terrorist attack??????

Clearly he means of that magnitude. He's mentioned the others before.

And why did they do a training senario regarding that exact type of event.

Which event on 9/11 and show me the exercise.

matt2873 - Why....oh why you morons defer to 'experts' is anyone's guess.

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I stand corrected. Though OKC was domestic and not part of any continuing plots, 93 was a very real Islamist attack and should have been a warning shot, though it was pretty much a failure from the terrorist perspective and didn't have that galvanizing effect here. It seemed very much like a one-off while terror raged elsewhere worldwide. Though experts knew better.

But then we hand about 8 years of immunity. One thing is for sure, we had grown very complacent, which is my point. We knew in 93 and in 01 that we were a target but getting the political will to make huge changes takes more than that, or so it seems. Was Clinton in on it too? He could have tried harder and taken more chances to get OBL.

In any case you'll need to show that the admins laxity was intentional, in hopes we would get hit. We certainly cannot assume that! Rabid Bush haters who care not for accuracy would be happy to read that into the situation. I'd love to myself but I know better.

What amazes me is that there was any delay at all at the WTC after the first hit in getting the second tower evacuated. They should have known instantly, in view of 93. Just goes to show how slow and plodding big systems can be, despite all the brilliant minds who should know better.

David Shayler, righteous CHAV!!!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXQikj-C1tk

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of course a 47 story building is going to leave debris over a large area....do you sincerely think anyone implies that because it was a controlled demolistion it should have fallen in a shoe box?
Not unless you consider its footprint to be a shoe box. You obviously think that it fell straight down...like an elevator...extraordinarly uniform. If "straight down" "like an elevator" and "extraordinarly uniform" means "causing heavy damage to buldings across the street and next door", you're right.
it was a controlled demolition just like 1 and 2.
Steel columns from 1 & 2 were found 300 feet away. What sort of controlled demolition can do that?

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[deleted]

But I think your question is a good one...what DOES cause steel columns to land 300 feet away? Wind?

It's either wind or they were blown to smithereens


I assume by "blown to smithereens," you mean during a controlled demolition. I guess you probably know that that doesn't happen in a controlled demolition. Hence the word "controlled."

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But I think your question is a good one...what DOES cause steel columns to land 300 feet away? Wind?


A mechanism that can cause this to happen is similar to what happens when you hit a nail off center, causing it shoot off sideways at high speeds. A column is struck unaxially which causes bending, and elastic energy builds in the column, similar to when you hold a pen on both ends and bend it, getting ready to release one end to launch at an unsuspecting victim. The columns unload, the energy is released, and they go flying. The collapse energy was capable of throwing columns much farther than 300 ft as well, it could get up to 500ft. Like I said you can prove this to your self by hitting a nail off center, then imagining if the hammer was several thousand tons.

If you want to make me laugh again and propose that explosives did this, it would take about 700 kg equivalent of TNT to throw a column as far as the collapse can, even if the column was at the very top of the tower and even if it was free standing, meaning the energy needed to fracture the connections, which makes the explosive weight go up by an enormous amount, as well as energy lost due to plastic deformation of the column is neglected.

By the way, the 93 WTC bombing was the equivalent of 500 kg TNT, and it was quite a noticeable blast. It also only was only able to disconnect one member and throw it 40 feet.

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[deleted]

Wrong

How, Cue Crickets, Get out the Gerber's and the blanky. The hard questions may lead to naptime.

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT

Wrong




very compelling arguement, as usual.

What is wrong? That a column struck unaxially will bend, and thus store elastic strain energy? You can find that in any strength of materials book.

I have posted four papers previously on the global collapse, and the released gravitational potential energy. Here is what that kind of energy can do:

Suppose a large piece
of steel is broken loose and swept along with the upper block at the very edge. This piece
then experiences a hard collision with the lower block – say the beam-framing of one of
the mechanical floors – and ricochets outside the falling mass, becoming an effectively
free ballistic projectile until it hits the ground or another building. If the piece ricochets
elastically, which is possible for a steel-on-steel collision, then it can rebound with almost
the same speed at which it was falling before the collision. To reach 600 feet distance, the
piece can be ejected lower in the structure at which point it will have picked up more
speed; or it can be ejected higher, in which case it will ricochet with less speed, but it will
have more “hang time” in which to travel.
There are many ricochet solutions possible in the WTC collapses. To pick one at random,
a piece pushed at the front of the upper block until ricocheting horizontally at the 50th
floor would be ejected with a speed of about 95 feet per second, using the “crush down”
velocity profile predicted by Dr. Bazant et. al. Upon bouncing off horizontally, it would
still have 6.3 seconds to fall, and would reach a distance of 605 feet away from the
former Tower perimeter. If the piece bounced at a slight upward angle, but still
rebounded elastically, it could reach an even greater distance. (This calculation does not
include aerodynamic drag, but a large, dense, slender object like a steel column will have
a high ballistic coefficient, and drag will have a relatively minor effect.) Many such
possible scenarios can be computed.


pg 95
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/Ryan_Mackey_Griffin_NIST_Review_1_1.pd f

If you want to read about how the equivalent of 500 kg of TNT at one meter was only able to throw a member 40 feet, go to a local engineering university and get a copy of this paper:

Shear failure of a steel member due to a blast T. Nonaka International Journal of Impact Engineering vol 24 (2000) pp231-238

However if this was high up on the tower it might be a high enough velocity to produce the steel ejections observed. Though, we would then expect to see explosions equal to 500kg of TNT one meter away from the perimeter columns. At around 3:12 in this video, you can see 290kg TNT going off from 2.5 kilometers to give you an idea of a little more than half of the explosive power we are talking about. Let me know if you see any such explosions occurring in the towers.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2083421624495848233



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[deleted]

same goes to you

http://www.PaulRon2008.com/
Our only hope for a terrible President.

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[deleted]

Takes one to know one. :D

http://www.PaulRon2008.com/
Our only hope for a terrible President.

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To even think that you can present proof on an internet discussion forum and be taken seriously is very revealing of your deluded state of mind.

Yes, It's only realistic to think you can score a date with Julia Stiles on the IMDB!

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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You don't know what you are talking about chief.


Demonstrate how

To even think that you can present proof on an internet discussion forum and be taken seriously is very revealing of your deluded state of mind.


I told you to look for a specific concept in any strength of materials book, look for another concept in a peer reviewed journal article, and I showed footage of an explosion. This info could be communicated through any medium, in fact, it relies on you to go and look it up. So do you care about the truth on this or no?

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The goal is not to spread terror. Terror is the tool they use to try get what they want. Terrorists dont kill people for fun!

The goal IS to spread terror. I did not say they did it for fun. They want us to be afraid. They want us to feel afraid and uncomfortable in our own homes. There's nothing "fun" about it, for us or them.

It does so to me, but as you pointed out earlier, i am no expert in this field.
But it is logical to think that if some one would do this, then they would NOT want it too look like a controled demolision, right?


Sure, they wouldn't want it to look like a demo. But you said it DOES look like one, so what's the point?

You could use padding to hide the explosions or make them smaller, you could use explosives on some of the beams, just enough to weaken them so the planes crashing in and the fire would do the rest.

See, this is where your lack of knowledge makes this debate meaningless. Use padding? What kind of padding? And what kind of explosives could you use that wouldn't be affected by jet airliners crashing into them? And how could you shield the explosives from the fire? Because you certainly can't control how a fire will spread, right?

As i said before, i am not an expert, but it doesnt take an expert to figure out that this is all very propable with the right connections and enough money to spend.

It doesn't take an expert to figure out that this is all probable? Actually, yes it DOES take an expert. If you had a bad heart valve, you might figure that you could just stick any old valve in there to replace it, right? Well, no you can't. You can't throw a dog heart valve or a chicken heart valve in there and expect it to work. You need a SPECIALIST to make sure that it's correct. And demolitions experts all over the world agree that the towers were NOT a demolition.

Add the motive of the american goverment to this ecuation along with the diffrent companys profiting from the war on terror and then it is not only propable but very likely.

It is neither probable or likely.

"I hate to burst your bubble, but the Patriot Act has no impact on our day to day lives."

It doesnt untill it does my friend!


And I won't be struck in the head by a meteorite until I am. It's still incredibly unlikely.


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Would i make it look like a controled demolition? Or would i make it look like the buildings collapsed due to the planes crashing into them?


Then you have to tell me how your explosives survived the shock and vibration from the impact of the plane, the fires, and the compression from the downward displacement of the building over the evolution of the fires.

Could i make the blasts smaller so they wouldnt be noticable?


Demolitions are already engineered to be as efficient as possible while still getting the job done. There is a small amount of overkill built into them to ensure that everything goes as planned, but if you make a charge smaller than recommended by certain equations, you are taking huge risks of failure.

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I see. But then what about that all the buildings that collapsed were leased by the same guy?

Silverstein lost 2.5 billion.

In its court papers, Swiss Re shows how Silverstein first tried to buy just $1.5 billion in property damage and business-interruption coverage. When his lenders objected, he discussed buying a $5 billion policy. Ultimately, he settled on the $3.5 billion figure, which was less than the likely cost of rebuilding.

http://www.forbes.com/2003/09/11/cx_da_0911silverstein.html

The actual court ruling awarded Silverstein 2.2 Billion, not factoring in attorneys fees. CREDIT TO JINGPAW,. THANKS!
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Larry-Silverstein-WTC6dec04.htm

And of course this isn't profit for Silverstein. The money is being provided for him to rebuild the WTC complex, and it turns out that's quite expensive ($6.3 billion in April 2006


$2.2 billion in insurance money, $6.3 billion in costs?


Silverstein Properties and the Port Authority continue to be guided by a lease each signed six weeks before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. The lease stipulates that should the complex be destroyed, Silverstein must continue to pay the $120 million a year rent in order to maintain the right to rebuild. Mr. Silverstein has tried to persuade the Port Authority that his closely held company is capable of rebuilding while meeting its massive rent payments. The rent is currently being paid from insurance proceeds, draining the amount available for rebuilding.
www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Larry-Silverstein-WTC6dec04.htm

$120 million dollars a year? So in the five years between the attacks and that article being written, Silverstein has paid out over $600 million on rent alone

6.3 billion in costs, 600 million in rent for ground with no building or revenue, almost 7 Billion in cost and 2.2 Billion in a insurance payout,

In a recent settlement the Port Authority agreed to pay half of the rebuilding cost which results in…..
A loss of about 2.5 billion for Larry Silverstein what a moneymaker!


The World Trade Centre
The super cracks it

May 24th 2007 | NEW YORK
From The Economist print edition
At long last, the developer and the insurers reach a deal

Eyevine

“I DON'T think anyone thought it would ever end,” said Eric Dinallo, New York state's insurance superintendent. But it has. In the early hours of May 23rd, seven insurance companies that had been refusing to pay out on claims related to the World Trade Centre site agreed to hand over $2 billion to bring the saga to a close. It was, they said, the largest single settlement in the history of the industry.

The payout will be split between the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which owns the site, and Larry Silverstein, its developer, who took over a 99-year lease on its buildings weeks before they were destroyed on September 11th, 2001. The deal resolves all outstanding claims over the attacks and ends more than five years of often ugly legal manoeuvring, during which the insurers accused Mr Silverstein of profiteering and he lambasted them for ducking their duty.

Mr Silverstein had contended that the attacks should be counted as two separate insurance events, entitling him to double the payout. The courts backed him, up to a point: some insurers were told they could treat it as a single incident, others as two events, depending on the phrasing of their policies. Mr Silverstein won a total of $4.68 billion in lawsuits—around two-thirds of what he had sought—but until this week had collected only $2.55 billion.

Though he pronounced himself pleased with this week's deal, he had to make concessions, such as abandoning his claim that the insurers owed more than $500m in interest accrued during the squabble. The insurers, for their part, dropped their insistence that they owed not a penny until the rebuilding was finished, probably in 2012. But it was Mr Dinallo who made it all happen. In March, after taking office, he made it a priority to break the deadlock. Meetings were convened in Delaware, Paris and Geneva, and heads banged together. New York's governor, Eliot Spitzer, helped with a final push.

Mr Spitzer hailed the settlement as being of “monumental importance”. It removes the last big obstacle to redeveloping Ground Zero, and opens the way to issue tax-free bonds and tap other sources of private financing. The entire project is expected to cost at least $9 billion. That will pay for five skyscrapers, shopping areas, a train station (already under construction) and possibly a hotel. The centrepiece will be the much-redrawn Freedom Tower, rising to a symbolic 1,776 feet.


HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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What about the beams that were found that looked like they had been cut sideways that those people say were blasted by thermite charges?

Go here, cutting torch after the towers fell, thermite would never make a streight cut like that. (Half way down)

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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I know you gave a lot of explanations about how the buildings collapsed and the reasons it looked the way it did. But it does honestly look very much like a controled demolition to me!

Are you in the controlled demolation field? The world record holders of the biggest, most and tallest Controlled Demolitions disagree with you.

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%20STUDY%208-06%20w%20clarif% 20as%20of%209-8-06%20.pdf

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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Who better to do such a good job demolishing the wtc buildings and make it look like its due to fire then the world record holders? Those are the guys I would hire!

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Who better to do such a good job demolishing the wtc buildings and make it look like its due to fire then the world record holders? Those are the guys I would hire!

So they do fake demolitions all the time? Do you realize how ridiculous and laughable that is?

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I did not say all the time! But of course if i would want to do such a thing, i would hire the best people for the job! People from the best company in the business. This is very logical to me. Why do you find this ridicolous?

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of course if i would want to do such a thing, i would hire the best people for the job! People from the best company in the business. This is very logical to me. Why do you find this ridicolous?

For one, they know how to do proper demolitions, the kind that take months and months to set up, and the kind never before attempted on buildings as large as the twin towers. It isn't laughable to hire them to demolish a building, but it is laughable to hire them to do it in such a way that it's indetectable. Seriously, you show a incredible lack of knowledge about how a demolition works.

And plus, if you hire them to do a job like that, then you've got hundreds of potential whistleblowers... several who I imagine would NOT want to be party to the death of nearly 3000 of our own people.

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It looks like other posters beat me to the punch on the insurance info and the fact that thermite does not cut sideways, but here are a few points:

Thermite does not blast, it is not and explosive, but rather an incendiary, it produces massive amounts of heat, and as mentioned, is guided by gravity.

If you think the terrorists have not gained, I suggest you read about the jihadi history. These men are truly at war. Ramzi Yousef tried to knock down the towers in 93 and failed, he went to khalid sheik mohammed and ramzi binalshibh, who were the principle planners of the 9/11 attacks(Bin laden was critical for funding). Yousef was arrested between 93 and 01 but the two other men were involved in many other plots, many plots that never came to be, including a plan involving flying a plane into the CIA headquarters, and Bin Laden of course has been involved in funding and planning numerous terrorist activities around the world. The hijackers themselves were patient and ruthless as well, waiting, studying and training. They would even slit camels' throats to prepare themselves to take a human life. The kind of determination and hatred felt by these men is unimaginable.

National Geographic did a piece called inside 9/11 with tons of info like this, starting from the 93 WTC bombing, its worth a look.

Finally here is a very large building being demolished:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ng5qwtR59A

here is WTC 7 from a few angles
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/wtc_7_cbs.mpg
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/wtc7_collapse.mpg
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/wtc7_collapse2.mpg

In the demo, there are numerous deafeningly loud sequential bangs before collapse initiation, in WTC 7 there are none. In the demo, there are numerous flashes to accompany the bangs, in WTC 7 there are none. In the demo, there are numerous sharp puffs of smoke coming out of windows before collapse initiation, in WTC 7 there are none, and in fact, since in a demo, the windows, doors, and non load bearing walls are stripped, we would expect to see windows broken from this over pressure if it was a CD, but we don't.

So did it really look like a CD?

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How and why did that female BBC reporter, report on live TV, that WTC 7 had collapsed more then 20 min before it actually collapsed?

Mainly because it was reported for three hours it was going to come down or did come down. Do you actually think someone pulling this would phone the media?

-------------------

So how did the BBC report that Building 7 at the World Trade Centre had collapsed around half an hour before it did so? My earlier posting on the subject has attracted a lot of interest so we've been doing more investigating within the BBC to put together the sequence of events.

BBC World logoFive and a half years have passed so it's quite difficult to answer every outstanding question. But we do know quite a bit more than we did on Tuesday, as a result of checking the BBC archives and what other media were doing at the time. I've also read through some of the reports published after 9/11 to help put together the sequence of events.

Back to 11 September itself. The Twin Towers had collapsed. Other buildings were known to be damaged. Building 7 was on fire. But this was also a very confusing picture - remember we had started the day with reports that a light aircraft had struck the first tower, and at one stage there was talk of ten hijacked jets in the air. It's in the nature of rolling news that events unfold in front of you and confusion turns to clarity. It's important to remember that context when looking more closely at what happened between about 4.10pm (EDT) and 5.20pm when Building 7 finally collapsed.

CNN's chronology of events published at the time confirms they reported the building on fire and a clip from a CNN bulletin, widely available on the web, hears from a reporter at about 4.15pm EDT, 9.15pm in the UK, who says: "We're getting information that one of the other buildings... Building 7... is on fire and has either collapsed or is collapsing... now we're told there is a fire there and that the building may collapse as well."

Other American networks were broadcasting similar reports at this time and the reports from FEMA and NIST both make it clear the building was on fire during the course of the day.

An image of the website hosting the alleged BBC World footageOne senior fire officer was quoted in a subsequent interview as saying there was a "bulge" in the building and he was "pretty sure it was going to collapse". During this time, our staff were talking directly to the emergency services and monitoring local and national media… and there was a fairly consistent picture being painted of Building 7 in danger of collapse. Producers in London would have been monitoring the news agency wires - the Associated Press, Reuters, etc - and although we don't routinely keep an archive of agency reports, we're sure they would have been reporting the same as the local media.

At 4.27pm, a BBC reporter, Greg Barrow, who is in New York, appears on our radio news channel, BBC Radio Five Live, and says: "We are hearing reports from local media that another building may have caught light and is in danger of collapse." He then responds to a follow-up question by saying "I'm not sure if it has yet collapsed but the report we have is talking about Building 7."

At 4.53pm, on the same radio station, the programme's presenter, Fi Glover says "25 minutes ago we had reports from Greg Barrow that another large building has collapsed just over an hour ago."

At 4.54pm, the BBC's domestic television news channel, BBC News 24, reports the same thing. Presenter Gavin Esler says: "We're now being told that yet another enormous building has collapsed... it is the 47-storey Salomon Brothers building."

And then at 4.57pm on BBC World (according to the clips available on the web) presenter Phil Hayton says: "We've got some news just coming in actually that the Salomon brothers building in NY right in the heart of Manhattan has also collapsed."

Because three BBC channels were saying this in quick succession, I am inclined to believe that one or more of the news agencies was reporting this, or at least reporting someone saying this.

At 5pm, News 24 repeated the news in its top-of-the-hour headlines sequence and then at about 5.10pm (again according to the clips on the web), Phil Hayton on BBC World says "More on the latest building collapse in NY - you might have heard I was talking a few moments ago about the Salomon building collapsing and indeed it has... it seems this wasn't the result of a new attack but because the building had been weakened during this morning's attack."

Some of the respondents to my earlier blog have suggested this must mean he had inside knowledge - that not only did he know the building had collapsed, he knew why.

Well in one sense that's true - for about an hour, it had been reported that the building was on fire and in danger of collapse. But he did qualify it by saying "it seems" and once again I think there's a danger of reading too much into what I believe was a presenter merely summarising what everyone had been saying during the previous hour.

Of course, with hindsight we now know that our live shot showed the building still standing in the background. But again I point to that confusing and chaotic situation on the ground - the CNN reporter who had talked about the building "either collapsed or is collapsing" also had it clearly in shot behind him, but he acknowledged he couldn't see very clearly from where he was standing. As we know, the building did collapse at 5.20pm, with the first pictures of that being broadcast on News 24 at about 5.35pm.

So that's what we know we reported. To me it paints a consistent (and reasonably conclusive) picture.


I've spent most of the week investigating this issue, but this is where we have to end the story. I know there are many out there who won't believe our version of events, or will raise further questions. But there was no conspiracy in the BBC's reporting of the events. Nobody told us what to say. There's no conspiracy involving missing tapes. There's no story here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/03/part_of_the_conspiracy_2 .html

HUMPTY DUMPTY WAS PUSHED...www.PressForDumptyTruth.org

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Do you REALISE how much that would take to set up?

What's all this shouting? We'll have no trouble here

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That was one of the DUMBEST comebacks i've ever heard.

WTC7 was engulfed in fire for the entire day UH DUH! If you don't believe me then look up the fire fighters quotes. Those that were around 7 all say the same thing: lots of fires, tilting, hearing creaks, and knowing it was going to collapse. NOT ow up, but simply, collapse.

I'd rather listen to Bush than someone that says "Whatever hit the Pentagon is irrelevant"-Dylan Avery

Oh and heres another winner from the LC crew: "The people are really secondary"-Louder than Words at a 2nd Ed. Screening.

"The phonecalls were fake, theres doubt about it."-Dylan Avery in his terrible narration.

So he basically is saying that these people didn't exist.

So, in actuallity, Twoofer Matt, there's no depth to your stupidity and ignorance.

Try and do some research outside of the names Avery, Jones, Griffin, etc. You know.....actually read up on people that actually have intelligence.

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lolzlolzlozlozlozlozlozlozlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolz

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I can tell from your pat diatribe you have not watched Loose Change Final Cut, so your comments are just an abuse of the IMDB forum. You could post some of your crap on Youtube, much better suited for you. What is lockness? Anything like lockjaw?

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Oh yes, Ford's deathbed confession about the CIA involvement in JFK's death is bogus too right? As are "Gulf of Tonkin" and "Operation Northwoods" Quit drinking the kool-aid man.



"Evolutionists wander through biology labs as if they belong there." Coppedge

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Oh yes, Ford's deathbed confession about the CIA involvement in JFK's death is bogus too right? As are "Gulf of Tonkin" and "Operation Northwoods" Quit drinking the kool-aid man.

And Bush had what to do with this?

tkidcharlemagne - True though there's nowt as dumb as masterbate et al.

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Relax MS, I wasn't insulting G.W. Just giving precedent to show that conspiracies do exist...despite what people like you say.


"Evolutionists wander through biology labs as if they belong there." Coppedge

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Sure, We'll all convert when you give us IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE.


http://www.PaulRon2008.com/
Our only hope for a terrible President.

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Just giving precedent to show that conspiracies do exist.

Amazing, Whales do too, and they also had nothing to do with 9/11. What a revelation.

tkidcharlemagne - True though there's nowt as dumb as masterbate et al.

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[deleted]

Yes, It fell, thanks for the tagline.


matt2873 - Why....oh why you morons defer to 'experts' is anyone's guess.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

A building collapse.

matt2873 - Why....oh why you morons defer to 'experts' is anyone's guess.

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If anything im having trouble believing conspiracy theories regarding 9/11, i was very interested in this subject at first and found some of the evidence convincing, yet over the course of last year i saw three programmes that convincingly argued against these theories. The first one was a BBC documentary entitled THE CONSPIRACY FILES: 9/11 (broadcast in Feb 18th 2007), that debunked though allowed fairly for the theories to be explained. It also made the sobering and true explanation as to the reasons why conspiracy theories come around, is for the fact that people cannot be satisfied by the easy answer, that maybe 19 Islamic extremists from Pakistan, hijacked planes and flew them into the towers, that the conspiracy theories are thought up to cover up the incompetancy of the US government in not preventing these attacks due to departmental in-communication between the CIA and FBI. This leads onto another documentary that i saw last year THE POWER OF NIGHTMARES: THE RISE OF THE POLITICS OF FEAR (originally aired in October 2004), by Adam Curtis, in which the formation and the rise of Islamic extremism and American Neo conservatism, where begun almost at the same time, that these two movements had ideologys that where similar, in that they wanted to establish an ideal world order. Both these movements met during the 80's when the Afghan's where fighting the Russians, yet through the Islamic extremists failed and bloody attempts to create an uprising in there own people, to overthrow the country's governments that they saw as corrupt and influenced by the west, there failure in establishing this led to a small group of Islamic extremists, declaring a war on America, and attacking its interests and buildings in Africa, with the embassy bombing in 1998 and so forth, eventually leading to the 9/11 attacks which where only funded, not organised, by Osama Bin Laden. Eventually radical Islamists (who where only concerned with fighting governments and establishing a rule using Islam in there own country) where wiped out during the invasion of Afghanistan by the US with the co-operation of the Northern alliance. Many who where killed or captured in this invasion, did not even have any links to Islamic terroism. With this threat wiped out in Afghanistan the Neo-cons needed to keep the idea of Al Queada and there terrorist threat against the west alive and what better way to do so than saying in the news media that there are sleeper cells waiting to strike at any minute in both the US and in Britain. You see the stronger the threat and the larger the threat of the enemy, provides more power for politicians and seeing as politician where only seen as managers of public services, this threat provided them with a chance to regain some of the power that they had lost over the previous years, in that the stronger and more darker the threat the more we 'the government' will protect you, thereby in return also limiting and bringing new laws that reduce freedoms and libertys in the UK and US (the patriot act in America, and the introduction of control orders and locking people up for crimes they might commit in the UK). This leads to my final example of 9/11 conspiracy's being slightly too far-fetched, and this was parodied in the South Park episode MYSTERY OF THE URINAL DEUCE. Okay some of you might say that this is a bit of silly example to use, as its a cartoon, yet i say no, this episode, aswell as being truly funny, had some good points to make, two in fact. The episode involves an incident at the school where someone has taken a number two in the boys urinal. Cartman spurned on by this incident and his own belief that 9/11 was an inside job, decides to investigate and comes up with his own theory that Kyle was behind the 9/11 attacks, this then leads to Kyle getting involved in all sorts of conspiracy theory thriller style plots, where he is eventually arrested by the government who takes him to see President Bush, who reveals that the 9/11 attacks where an inside government and that it was done to establish control over the people of the US ("People. I call them sheeple!"), yet through more plot twist its eventually revealed that the US government are themselves behind the 9/11 conspiracy theories, thats its them who invent them to make themselves look all powerful, and domineering, rather than incompetant and dis-organised , which is what they are seen as. If anything this scene in South Park, makes a good point, that the conspiracy theories, made up by the government themselves then taken even further on the internet, make the US government themselves look all powerful and willing to kill there own people int here thousands, for there own gain. Im not going to defend the US government in any way, particularly the CIA and Military, who have installed puppet dictators in foreign countrys and supported un-democratic military coups overthrowing fairly elected governments in countrys around the world. Yet it seems absurd and almost fanciful to believe that they would kill 3,000 of there own citizens in New York, just so that this can pave the way to establish a democratic order around the world, just cause this was a theory established and developed by a small group called the neo-cons, and in turn this would reduce libertys in there own country's. The point that is made is that this threat of terror, only serves one purpose and thats to give those in government a sense of power and purpose, that they have lost. Yet without an enemy that is large and dangerous and spreads all around the world, and threatens the west, its better to re-invent it as a phantom enemy and get the general populace worried that the threat of terrorism is all too real, when the threat is hardly there. Yest there are dangerous people who are seduced by the islamic extremist ideas of martyrdom and jihad on the west and these people are willing to destroy themselves to destroy us, the Madrid bombings and the london July 7th bombings are clear examples of this, yet they do not represent a threat to our way of life. The true threat comes from the errosion of liberty and freedom by our own government, who are also seduced by the idea of the phantom enemy, this being Islamic extremism, and without this threat they would lose there stranglehold on power and there promise to protect us from the enemy, so its better to invent and exaggerate the enemy than to reveal the truth.

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For all who have read and posted in this thread, instead of arguing about if they were CD's or not just ask youself this question. Do you think the US goverment had prior knowledge of what was going to happen? If yes then why has there been no major inquiry or indictments into what happened?

One other point, how many still "dont" believe the US invaded Iraq for the oil? If you still think this then you should open your eyes NOW!

Stop all this arguing about things we cant proove and just look at the amount of suffering there is around the world thanks to the US of A and ask yourself who realy are the ones to blame?

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Loose Change, the board you are in BTW, is a film about the US goverment manufacturing the entire 911 attacks. That is why CD was the topic. Your point is slightly off topic.

But for what it's worth many of us debunkers do think Bush and co. are likely woefully incompetent in pre-911 terror planning and should be investigated about what they knew in advance. Having said that it was in all likelihood just the expected laxity of the sleeping giant that allowd 911 to occur.

If getting their 'new Pearl Harbor' was in the back of their mind I would not be totally shocked but somehow I think they are not quite that cold and cynical. Trying to prove anything either way is likely next to impossible.

The truther theories about knowing the specific time of the attack and standing down Norad and the like are without any evidence at all. Just argument by personal incedulity.

David Shayler, righteous CHAV!!!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXQikj-C1tk

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debunkerboy,

"But for what it's worth many of us debunkers do think Bush and co. are likely woefully incompetent in pre-911 terror planning and should be investigated about what they knew in advance."

This is the main standpoint of myself, many of the victims families and the vast majority of the 911 Truth Movement. A truly independent investigation is all anyone can really ask for. Thank you for your honesty.

"If getting their 'new Pearl Harbor' was in the back of their mind I would not be totally shocked but somehow I think they are not quite that cold and cynical. Trying to prove anything either way is likely next to impossible."

Do you think it is cold and cynical to start wars with two countries that hadnt posed any real, immediate threat to the U.S. or any other country? Perhaps the ends justify the means. This is a political discussion that Im sure youve heard before. Isnt it at least possible that to let one terrorist attack slip through in the interest of having the opportunity and needed support to go into two countries and plant the eternal seeds for democracy in the interest of spreading peace throughout the ME is not so outlandish? Why is it that the Bush administration are not evil at all to allow the deaths of thousands of U.S. soldiers and God knows how many Iraqi women and children (not to mention the torture, maiming, and genocide of 100s of thousands of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan) in the interest of fighting terror and spreading democracy... but....to allow one terroist event on U.S. soil without the hindsight of how many people would actually die in the interest of eternal world peace and eternal financial stability for the U.S. is so unthinkably evil that it is beyond consideration? Please help me with this reasoning.

We know for a fact that this administration uses depleted uranium in Iraq which has devastating consequences to every living thing and everyone anywhere near it. We know for a fact that this administration has changed the rules to include waterboarding, and other forms of torture. I (and most human rights groups) consider torture to be in the same class as slavery, rape and child molestation, i.e. always wrong; never, ever, under any situation justifiable. We know for a fact that this administration either lied about WMDs or was criminally negligent in misunderstanding the threat. Im being very kind here because there are not many people who would even acknowledge the possiblity that the whole WMD fiasco was a mistake as opposed to an outright lie. Considering all these things its hard for me to understand how you would be shocked if the thought of 'a New Pearl Harbour' was in their thinking. I'd be surprised if it wasnt. At any rate there certainly is need for a very thorough criminal investigation.



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Sorry but Afghanistan DID pose a threat, or did you forget they were run by the Taliban and hosted OBL?

Anyway no, I do not see an equivalence to invading Iraq and murdering your own citizens. I quite imagine Bush and Cheney could justify Iraq, in their own conscience, but not blowing up their own country. edit: I'll give you it is possible they might let it happen as opposed to MIHOP. But being possible and having evidence are two different things. But it's possible. I never have totally opposed the LIHOP- light scenario.

I don't debate politics here. It's a bottomless pit.

As I said before if you could get an investigation which looked into exactly what they knew and why they didn't take more action then I'm all for it. as long as you mix that idea with the inside job stuff you will get no help from me and that seems to be exactly what you do, Dommy, you straddle the fence.



David Shayler, righteous CHAV!!!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXQikj-C1tk

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debunkerboy,

"Sorry but Afghanistan DID pose a threat, or did you forget they were run by the Taliban and hosted OBL?"

Is there no difference between an act of war perpretated by a country and one that is perpetrated by an evil gang of thugs taking refuge within a country? Didnt the Taliban openly agree to extradite UBL to the U.S. if the U.S. could provide them with any proof at all of its allegations toward him? If some militant extremist group within the U.S. like some rogue faction of the militia or something was led by some radical nut who organized a bombing in another country and that other country waged a war on the U.S. in rataliation citing that the U.S. government had been complicit, would this be acceptable? Would we see the country waging war on the U.S. as being just in their actions?

"As I said before if you could get an investigation which looked into exactly what they knew and why they didn't take more action then I'm all for it."

This would undoubtably have to be the focus of any new investigation. I think we are actually in agreement.

"...as long as you mix that idea with the inside job stuff you will get no help from me and that seems to be exactly what you do, Dommy, you straddle the fence."

Im quite comfortable with being agnostic. In a truly extensive investigation you follow all lines of inquiry until you get answers. You do not ignore the questions or classify the information that may lead to unpleasant answers. Im actually convinced that a better investigation would make all the conspiracy theories go away and would give a little bit of closure to the victims' families.




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WARNING! Uneducated Troll alert!!!

Rather than present his/her/it's argument with information countering that which is provided in this film, the OP has resorted childish name calling, bulverism and false comparisons as a tactic to discredit it.

I actually find it amusing that the OP can call anybody stupid, when their English skills are so poor, and they are unable to spot the flawed logic they are using. By entertaining this moron we are implying his idiotic and moot argument is credible, which it is not. rtiemann-1 has resorted to insulting the people who watch the movie, which is essentially clutching at straws since he cannot disprove the content.

Ladies and gentlemen, please refrain from feeding the trolls. rtiemann-1, please shut that hole in your face until you can present an argument like an adult.

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I see your point crz1990. I take it you at least lean toward the inside job hypothesis?

If you prefer to have a more thoughtful and educated exchange about the subject then please start a thread with your best smoking guns or whatever and I'm sure we can oblige.

David Shayler, righteous CHAV!!!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXQikj-C1tk

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Bill Hicks R.I.P.-nuff said

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"I see your point crz1990. I take it you at least lean toward the inside job hypothesis?"

If you want a brief, yes/no answer then I'll humour you and say yes, I do think it was an inside job (although personally I don't like that expression).

Having spent a great deal of time over the last few years discussing various ideas with A LOT of people, I've realised it's an exercise in futility trying to persuade closed-minded individuals that a criminal element in the US/Israeli government was responsible. Given that your name is Debunkerboy, and seeing you seem to spend a disproportionate amount of your time "debunking", anything I say would be a waste of breath. If this movie did nothing to dissuade you from the official story, or at least make you question the government, then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.

I didn't post here to try to convert anyone, just to point out that sometimes it's best to ignore the ignorant.

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I say would be a waste of breath. If this movie did nothing to dissuade you from the official story, or at least make you question the government, then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.

Loose change, LOL, Three versions and the facts are still wrong, give me your best inside job fact.

sometimes it's best to ignore the ignorant.

No, I'd rather hear your best fact.

Tinfoil_Hat_Man - Why....oh why you morons defer to 'experts' is anyone's guess.

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Having spent a great deal of time over the last few years discussing various ideas with A LOT of people, I've realised it's an exercise in futility trying to persuade closed-minded individuals that a criminal element in the US/Israeli government was responsible. Given that your name is Debunkerboy, and seeing you seem to spend a disproportionate amount of your time "debunking", anything I say would be a waste of breath. If this movie did nothing to dissuade you from the official story, or at least make you question the government, then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.

I didn't post here to try to convert anyone, just to point out that sometimes it's best to ignore the ignorant.


Translation:

Having nursed my bogus 911 ideas in the crib of ignorance and solitude for lo these many years I have no intention of exposing them to the painfull scrutiny of knowledgeable people.



David Shayler, righteous CHAV!!!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXQikj-C1tk

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Originally posted by Mastershake2009 "Loose change, LOL, Three versions and the facts are still wrong, give me your best inside job fact."

Like I said, I'm not here to convert anybody. You are free to believe what you want. I'm always open to new ideas and opinions so if you can point out any errors in this film (Loose Change: Final cut) I'll happily look at them, who knows you might change my mind.

I presume from the massive amount of posts you have made on this subject, that you ARE here to convert people. If that's the case, it might be an idea to be polite and not get peoples backs up.

No offence, but you need to get out more. The amount of posts you make, and your blatant arrogance suggests you have ZERO social life.


Originally posted by debunkerboy:

"Translation:

Having nursed my bogus 911 ideas in the crib of ignorance and solitude for lo these many years I have no intention of exposing them to the painfull scrutiny of knowledgeable people."

LIKE I SAID, "I'M NOT HERE TO CONVERT ANYONE" Do you understand that sweetheart?

Oh yeah, I think it's spelled PAINFUL. But I'm sure a knowledgeable individual like yourself knows that.

I'm not coming back here because your attitudes stink. Don't give up wasting your spare time though, portraying yourselves as arrogant tossers to strangers over the internet is time well spent.

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No offence, but you need to get out more. The amount of posts you make, and your blatant arrogance suggests you have ZERO social life.

I work seven days a week and multitask. As far as my social life, mostly nights with my family and close friends, but nice cheap slam anyway.

I presume from the massive amount of posts you have made on this subject, that you ARE here to convert people.

No, How could I do that, conversion is choice of free will. I am here to present facts. Name your favorite for LC:FC

I'm not coming back here because your attitudes stink. Don't give up wasting your spare time though, portraying yourselves as arrogant tossers to strangers over the internet is time well spent.

Thanks, Keep those tin foil hat theories going, share them with your friends and co-workers, you will go far in life.

Tinfoil_Hat_Man - Why....oh why you morons defer to 'experts' is anyone's guess.

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I presume from the massive amount of posts you have made on this subject, that you ARE here to convert people. If that's the case, it might be an idea to be polite and not get peoples backs up.

Shake just gets sick of the Loose Change rhetoric and the fact that no CT'ist likes to look at actual facts. But the idea of being polite is always a good one.

No offence, but you need to get out more. The amount of posts you make, and your blatant arrogance suggests you have ZERO social life.

Ouch... THAT wasn't very polite! If you don't have anything nice to say, maybe you should take your advice and not say anything at all!

But if you have any Loose Change facts, like Shake said, please bring them up and we'll talk about them.




"youtube evidence" is important - ivan sapp

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Name your favourite for LC:FC ...... Steve Howard or Barry Hayles!! :)

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Huh?

Tinfoil_Hat_Man - Why....oh why you morons defer to 'experts' is anyone's guess.

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Lots of Centcom trolls on here using the same tactics as on Google Video - sarcasm, buzz phrases, ridicule (forced), ad hominems, posts dripping with juvenile sarcasm but devoid of substance.

That they are on here in numbers buzzing people rather contradicts their claim that they find us to be a bunch of "nuts", hmmm?

PUT OPTIONS - PUT OPTIONS - PUT OPTIONS - PUT OPTIONS - PUT OPTIONS.

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PUT OPTIONS - PUT OPTIONS - PUT OPTIONS - PUT OPTIONS - PUT OPTIONS.


American Airlines: 1535 puts
United Airlines: 2000 puts
http://www.thestreet.com/comment/futures/10001556.html

American Airlines: 4516 puts
United Airlines: 4,744 puts "between September 6 and 7"
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=386

American Airlines: 2,282 puts
United Airlines: 2,075 puts
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/2/62018.shtml

American Airlines: 4516 puts
United Airlines: 3150 puts
http://www.suntimes.com/terror/stories/cst-nws-trade20.html

The real figures are the last ones -- at least, we think -- but there does seem to be some confusion here. Were these levels exceptional, though?

Insight reported that there were repeated spikes in put options on American Airlines during the year before Sept. 11 (June 19 with 2,951 puts, June 15 with 1,144 puts, April 16 with 1,019 and Jan. 8 with 1,315 puts). In the same period, United Airlines had slightly more action (Aug. 8 with 1,678 puts, July 20 with 2,995, April 6 with 8,212 and March 13 with 8,072).
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/2/62018.shtml

So it seems the American trades were the highest they'd been in the previous year (assuming the 4,516 figure it correct), although there may be reasons for that (see elsewhere). The United Airlines trades were less than half the spikes in April and March, though, suggesting they weren't as unusual as some people claim.


And that raises a problem for another aspect of this story, a claim originated by Mike Ruppert and retold here by David Ray Griffin:

These purchases were for two and only two airlines: American, and United, the two airlines whose planes were used in the attacks. And also, for Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, which occupied 22 storeys of the World Trade Centre. The price of these shares did of course plummet after 9/11. As the San Francisco Chronicle said, "these unusual purchases, which resulted in profits of at least tens of millions of dollars, raise suspicions than the investors had advance knowledge of the strikes".


For our purposes, the most important implication of this story follows from the fact that US intelligence agencies monitor the market looking for signs of imminent, untoward events. These extraordinary purchases therefore would have suggested to intelligence agencies that in the next few days, United and American airliners were going to be used in attacks on the World Trade Centre. That is fairly specific knowledge.
http://www.911blogger.com/2005/04/proper-release-of-griffin-in-madison.html

This is applying hindsight in a fairly dramatic manner, and it’s also leaving out crucial information: the American puts followed the trading day after the company had released a major profit warning, when you’d expect investors to believe the shares had further to fall, and the United Airlines trade volumes were lower than the spikes that occurred in March and April. If a United Airlines spike of 8,072 in March didn’t suggest an imminent attack, then why should 3,150 puts in September have any more effect?



vaju - Again a two digit number, brainwatched zombies never change their behavior.

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I'm not a financial expert but it's classic MO for unusual activity on the stock exchange and ceratin people financially benefitting from it.

It recalls the story of the Rotschilds and the Napoleonic war - if I could remember it.

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I'm not a financial expert but it's classic MO for unusual activity on the stock exchange and ceratin people financially benefitting from it


Well it does not take a expert to get this as not unusual.


This is applying hindsight in a fairly dramatic manner, and it’s also leaving out crucial information: the American puts followed the trading day after the company had released a major profit warning, when you’d expect investors to believe the shares had further to fall, and the United Airlines trade volumes were lower than the spikes that occurred in March and April. If a United Airlines spike of 8,072 in March didn’t suggest an imminent attack, then why should 3,150 puts in September have any more effect?


vaju - Again a two digit number, brainwatched zombies never change their behavior.

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Those put options were investigated and were found to originate with either a single person or the advice from a financial magazine. Nothing special.

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Yes, I'm sure it was all perfectly innocent.
Nothing to see here. Move along.

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One was mainly one guy acting by himself and the other had been recently suggested by an investment newsletter. Seems innocent to everyone who is not invested in assigning ulterior motive.

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It's amusing how all the "deny the obvious" offishul story zealots can explain away the mystery of the put options despite having nothing to do with it and not knowing who placed them and why.

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It's amusing how "Truth"ers try to pile up all these innocuous grains of sand in an attempt to build a mountain.

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It's amusing how all the "deny the obvious" offishul story zealots can explain away the mystery of the put options despite having nothing to do with it and not knowing who placed them and why.

The why is a major public profit loss warning was issued. The who is anyone that did not want to loose money.


American Airlines: 1535 puts
United Airlines: 2000 puts
http://www.thestreet.com/comment/futures/10001556.html

American Airlines: 4516 puts
United Airlines: 4,744 puts "between September 6 and 7"
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=386

American Airlines: 2,282 puts
United Airlines: 2,075 puts
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/2/62018.shtml

American Airlines: 4516 puts
United Airlines: 3150 puts
http://www.suntimes.com/terror/stories/cst-nws-trade20.html

The real figures are the last ones -- at least, we think -- but there does seem to be some confusion here. Were these levels exceptional, though?

Insight reported that there were repeated spikes in put options on American Airlines during the year before Sept. 11 (June 19 with 2,951 puts, June 15 with 1,144 puts, April 16 with 1,019 and Jan. 8 with 1,315 puts). In the same period, United Airlines had slightly more action (Aug. 8 with 1,678 puts, July 20 with 2,995, April 6 with 8,212 and March 13 with 8,072).
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/2/62018.shtml

So it seems the American trades were the highest they'd been in the previous year (assuming the 4,516 figure it correct), although there may be reasons for that (see elsewhere). The United Airlines trades were less than half the spikes in April and March, though, suggesting they weren't as unusual as some people claim.


And that raises a problem for another aspect of this story, a claim originated by Mike Ruppert and retold here by David Ray Griffin:

These purchases were for two and only two airlines: American, and United, the two airlines whose planes were used in the attacks. And also, for Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, which occupied 22 storeys of the World Trade Centre. The price of these shares did of course plummet after 9/11. As the San Francisco Chronicle said, "these unusual purchases, which resulted in profits of at least tens of millions of dollars, raise suspicions than the investors had advance knowledge of the strikes".


For our purposes, the most important implication of this story follows from the fact that US intelligence agencies monitor the market looking for signs of imminent, untoward events. These extraordinary purchases therefore would have suggested to intelligence agencies that in the next few days, United and American airliners were going to be used in attacks on the World Trade Centre. That is fairly specific knowledge.
http://www.911blogger.com/2005/04/proper-release-of-griffin-in-madison.html

This is applying hindsight in a fairly dramatic manner, and it’s also leaving out crucial information: the American puts followed the trading day after the company had released a major profit warning, when you’d expect investors to believe the shares had further to fall, and the United Airlines trade volumes were lower than the spikes that occurred in March and April. If a United Airlines spike of 8,072 in March didn’t suggest an imminent attack, then why should 3,150 puts in September have any more effect?


Trubl_Makr - Attention CBS: Bring back Walker, Texas Ranger! WTR is my favourite show

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Anyone who believes in conspiracy theories are retards anyway.

If the whitehouse could not even hide the fact that Bill clinton got a blowjob from Monica Lewinsky in the oval office, then how do you people expect the white house to have planned 9/11, without anyone screaming it to the press.

All conspiracy theories have been debunked anyway.

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Not really. Take it back to JFK. I'm a military man myself, but I don't support any of this "war" activity. Again, why are me and my freinds getting blown up? Oh, yeah the whole god thing. Well mr de-bunked, how bout that bible thingy or Ha..global warming! Oh I got one, this is our land...that we killed and lied for. Remeber where Mexico used to be. Oh and were did the natives live before? But you're right, our Government wouldn't lie, they'd just wouldn't tell us everything. *cue the angry rednecks* hey man this land is our land...
Well not really, we're borrowing it and paying it back slowly.
I agree with Bill Maher, Bush had nothing to do with 9/11, thank his staff and the other Bereau teams for that. This *beep* has been going on for decades. Get over it. People are too scared to question, just like in the 50's. Oh, one more thing, why do we keep going into the east? 1st Iraq, now Afganistan? Pakistan? ok, freedom and anti-terror. ok I forgot.
We need sun gods again. Out

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"Oh and were did the natives live before? But you're right, our Government wouldn't lie, they'd just wouldn't tell us everything. *cue the angry rednecks* hey man this land is our land...
Well not really, we're borrowing it and paying it back slowly.
I agree with Bill Maher, Bush had nothing to do with 9/11, thank his staff and the other Bereau teams for that. This *beep* has been going on for decades. Get over it. People are too scared to question, just like in the 50's."

Spot the asinine left-wing propaganda cliches.

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"Anyone who believes in conspiracy theories are retards anyway."
"All conspiracy theories have been debunked anyway."

Wrong twice and wrong way round twice.
It's not "theories" anyway, it's FACTS usually suppressed by the big media.

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Your all wrong. The World Trade Centers never even existed.

Never underestimate your ability to forget.

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"All conspiracy theories have been debunked anyway."

Oh dear. Talk about generalisation. I also notice you use the denier-buzzword "debunked", proving you are incapable of independent thought.

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[deleted]

Brown's warning: In the five years since 9/11, the question of how then-San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown got a warning about flying that day continues to live on in the blogosphere -- and conspiracy theories abound.

"The latest version is that Condoleezza Rice alerted me personally,'' Brown said this week. "It's all part of the ongoing myth."

The "myth" has its origins in the night before the attacks, when Brown called "my security people at the airport'' to check on his flight to New York the next morning.

What the mayor got from his source was a warning that Americans should be concerned about traveling.

Willie being Willie, he paid no attention -- and was actually waiting for his ride to the airport when he turned on the TV and, like millions of other Americans, watched as the World Trade Center crumbled.

Exactly how the warning popped up remains a mystery to this day.

It might have had something to do with a little-noticed State Department memo issued a week before that went out in a routine press briefing -- and that former Secretary of State George Shultz himself received -- warning that Americans may be the target of an attack from extremist groups "with links to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda organization."

The warning, however, dealt primarily with U.S. military bases in Japan and South Korea -- clearly the wrong targets.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/13/BAGG9L4KI81.DTL

Trubl_Makr writes - Attention CBS: Bring back Walker, Texas Ranger! WTR is my favourite show

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cheers mate, really surprises me that nobody presses for these answers. I know it would never happen in my country which is Ireland, but if there was such a conspiracy ever like this one, the people would not rest until they got to the bottom of it.


Maybe because the 'conspiracy' is a laughing stock only tin hatted idiots even believe? LOL If there was any iota of truth to it the left would be all over it in the US.

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Likely the AFDS, which should always be on even when autopilot is off avoided a collision with the ground.

Many modern airliners are not directly flown by the pilot but by automated systems. Most newer aircraft even use fly-by-wire (FBW) systems that take control inputs from the pilot, process them by computer, and automatically make adjustments to the control surfaces to accomplish the pilot's commands. Though the 757 is not equipped with a fully digital FBW system, it does carry a flight management computer system (FMCS), digital air data computer (DADC), and autopilot flight director system (AFDS) that provide sophisticated control laws to govern the plane's control surfaces. The AFDS not only controls the plane when the autopilot is enabled, but Boeing recommends that these computerized systems always be in operation to advise the pilots on how to best fly the aircraft. The primary advantage of computerized control systems is that they can make corrections to an aircraft's flight path and help prevent the pilot from accidentally putting the plane into an uncontrollable condition. The 757's flight augmentation system is also designed to damp out aerodynamic instabilities, and computerized control systems often automatically account for ground effect by making adjustments to the plane's control surfaces to cancel it out.

These factors make it clear that ground effect could not have prevented a Boeing 757 from striking the Pentagon in the way that Flight 77 did on September 11. Nevertheless, we are still left with the claim that the pilot Hanjour flew a suspiciously "perfect" flight path on his approach to the Pentagon despite his lack of skill. It is unclear what has prompted this belief since very few eyewitnesses even describe how well the aircraft flew. The majority instead focus on the impact and aftermath. Even so, those few who did make statements regarding pilot ability indicate that Hanjour flew in a somewhat erratic manner as one would expect.

One of the most interesting quotes comes from Afework Hagos who commented on the plane see-sawing back and forth, suggesting that the pilot was struggling to keep the plane level in either pitch or roll or perhaps both. Hagos was stuck in traffic near the Pentagon when the 757 passed overhead. He reported, "There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance." Another eyewitness named Penny Elgas also referred to the plane rocking back and forth while Albert Hemphill commented that, "He was slightly left wing down as he appeared in my line of sight, as if he'd just 'jinked' to avoid something." These observations were further confirmed by Mary Ann Owens, James Ryan, and David Marra who described the plane's wings as "wobbly" when it "rolled left and then rolled right" and the pilot "tilted his wings, this way and in this way."

This question of whether an amateur could have flown Flight 77 into the Pentagon was also posed to a colleague who previously worked on flight control software for Boeing airliners. Brian F. (he asked that his last name be withheld) explained, "The flight control system used on a 757 can certainly overcome any ground effect. ... That piece of software is intended to be used during low speed landings. A high speed dash at low altitude like [Flight 77] made at the Pentagon is definitely not recommended procedure ... and I don't think it's something anyone specifically designs into the software for any commercial aircraft I can think of. But the flight code is designed to be robust and keep the plane as safe as possible even in unexpected conditions like that. I'm sure the software could handle that kind of flight pattern so long as the pilot had at least basic flight training skills and didn't overcompensate too much."

Brian also consulted with a pair of commercial airline pilots who decided to try this kind of approach in a flight training simulator. Although the pilots were not sure the simulator models such scenarios with complete accuracy, they reported no significant difficulties in flying a 757 within an altitude of tens of feet at speeds between 350 and 550 mph (565 to 885 km/h) across smooth terrain. The only issue they encountered was constant warnings from the simulator about flying too fast and too low. These warnings were expected since the manufacturer does not recommend and FAA regulations prohibit flying a commercial aircraft the way Flight 77 was flown. These restrictions do not mean it is impossible for a plane to fly at those conditions but that it is extremely hazardous to do so, and safety was obviously not a concern to the terrorists on September 11. An aircraft flying at those high speeds at low altitude would also likely experience shaking due to the loads acting on it, but commercial aircraft are designed with at least a 50% safety margin to survive such extremes.

One of the pilots summarized his experiences by stating, "This whole ground effect argument is ridiculous. People need to realize that crashing a plane into a building as massive as the Pentagon is remarkably easy and takes no skill at all. Landing one on a runway safely even under the best conditions? Now that's the hard part!" While he may have been exaggerating a bit for effect, he does raise a valid point that flying skillfully and safely is much more difficult than flying as recklessly as the terrorists did on September 11.


Trubl_Makr writes - Attention CBS: Bring back Walker, Texas Ranger! WTR is my favourite show

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ya i suppose thats true, but what about giving answers to why the lawn was never damaged outside the pentagon. did they ever answer this?
The port engine struck concrete, specifically a ground-level ventillation structure, not grass.

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You didn't watch the movie. Prove me wrong, call out one specific thing in the movie that you consider "garbage".

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OK

Operation Northwoods. One of several proposed ideas for dealing with the cuban issue at the time. ONE of several. Did it ever make it off the page? No. Do it's architects work for the current Admin? No.

So then, what is the purpose of putting such emphasis on it in the film? Sensationalism, and like=like mentality. If this exists, so must the 9/11 inside job. Sadly, that really is a pathetic approach to 'proving' the Truther rhetoric.

I have another for you: LC focus our attention on the numbers behind the 'melting' of steel..over and over...yet...melting steel isn't even an issue, as steel does not need to melt to fail. Avery knows this, so why let the piece stay in through 3 diff releases of the video? Again, mis-direction and dis-info.

I have a lot more...but I will let it be where it is, so you can begin your rants about idiocy, agents and woo-woo.

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