MovieChat Forums > No End in Sight (2007) Discussion > Not to stir up anything, but a similarit...

Not to stir up anything, but a similarity I noticed...


I've recently been watching Ken Burns' "The War" on PBS, and I just watched "No End in Sight" last night. I started feeling a little sick to my stomach when it slowly started to dawn on me that you could draw a few too many parallels between the US occupation of Iraq and Germany's occupation of much of Europe in the 1930's and 1940's.

I'm not saying that we're a bunch of Nazis - far from I think/hope. But it did resonate with me that Germany swooped into those countries thinking they were "right" and justified in what they were doing - much the same as the US has felt right and justified in its efforts in Iraq.

Some may see this as a bit of a stretch, or it may have already been thrown out there in a previous post. But it's just something that crossed my mind while watching this film, and it's been quite haunting to an extent ever since.





The sea was angry that day, my friends. Like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli.

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Read "The End of America" by Naomi Wolf and your eyes will be opened like virtually no other text could accomplish (which isn't entirely true but it's a compelling read nonetheless).

In it she lists 10 steps that Dictators use to establish a rule of martial law in their own country, gives us examples from dictatorships of past and present, and then presents the eerie parallels of the last 6-7 years. I won't say much more since everyone should read it themselves, but I will list the ten steps which are as follows:

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy.
2. Create secret prisons where torture takes place.
3. Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens.
4. Set up an internal surveillance system.
5. Harass citizens' groups.
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release.
7. Target key individuals.
8. Control the press.
9. Declare all dissent to be treason.
10. Suspend the rule of law.

What's really frightening is that all of this sounds horribly familiar at a first glance, when in a free and fully functioning Democracy (or Republic for that matter)it shouldn't.

"Weenie Wraps intrigue me" - Ignignokt

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It's easy, if one believes something, to see in it what they want to see--to somehow see it as being applicable, to make it fit a certain scenario. This list of ten things could, in the minds of some, be "scary" just as some people look at Nostradamus's "prophecies" and see legitimacy in them because of how "accurate" the are. But let's seriously consider the ten things you mentioned and see how scared we really ought to be.

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy. Hmmm...any enemy (and most nations with power rarely don't have enemies) is going to be "terrifying" simply because they usually do want to kill you. So, number one could exist at almost any time in any nation's history. Big coincidence. Also, I haven't noticed Americans walking around in a state of fear anyway. Come to think of it, the day afer 9/11 happened, I wasn't in a state of fear that day, and neither were most Americans (at least those I came into contact with--didn't see any curled up in a corner shaking with fear). A bit angry, perhaps, but certianly not terrified.
2. Secret Prisons? If we know of these secret prisons where torture is taking place, then they wouldn't be secret. Also, I haven't seen any evidence of actual torture that is occurring. Yes, there are difficult interrogation techniques, but I'm not sure the line is being crossed into "cruel and unusual punishment." Perhaps. But I would like to see some evidence. Of course, in this pansy day and age, the fact that the guys at Gitmo don't have HBO is, to some, cruel and unusual punishment.
3. I'm not aware of anything remotely resembling this in America yet.
4. We do have some interal surveillance. Perhaps even more so than is necessary. Many countries do in this day and age. I think it's a melodramatic leap to comparing what the people in the USA must "endure" to 1984, or something else like that.
5. I'm not aware of citizens being harrassed. Nobody has hauled Michael Moore into room 101 lately.
6. Arbitrary detention and release? Well, some people probably ought to be questioned: Muslim arabs with a lot of money but no job taking flying lessons or chemistry courses, etc. They ought to be watched, anyway.
7. Target Key Individuals? What key individuals have been targeted, and for what, and what has been done to them?
8. Control the Press? Keith Olbermann. Enough said.
9. Declare all dissent to be treason? Declaring something is stating an opinon, which the people in the country have the right to do. If somebody wants the freedom to say, "I am against the war and Bush is a Nazi", then they should respect the right of the another person to say, "You're a treasonous coward." Both are exercising their first ammendment rights. If the government hauls the former in and tell him/her to stop saying such things or he/she will be punished, then you have a point. Till then, you're whining.
10. Suspend the rule of law? Definitely nothing here. Well, the closest thing I can think of for this is when cops were forcing people to give up guns in the New Orleans area after Katrina, but I didn't hear any liberal groups or the ACLU get angry about this infringement on 2nd ammendment rights.

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1. Islamo fascists, al qaeda, mujahideen, whatever the term that is being currently being used. The idea of creating an enemy from an ethnic minority within your country is not a new one. If a small group of muslims are anti american (read anti nato countries) then so be it, but the demonification of islam as a whole via the media is an easy way to scare the *beep* out of the american populus. It's not a wake up and quake in your boots fear it's a fear that makes you look at every middle eastern looking man suspiciously. I know of no American (and few brits) who get on a plane with a muslim in traditional dress and dont think "what's he going to do?". This is highly dangerous and in the end only counter productive as it pushes normal muslim towards radicalisation.

2. For decades the russians had 'secret' prisons that many people knew about but no one said anything because of various reasons. The same can be said for various regimes throughtout world history.If a government denies the existence of a prison the one can genuinely declare it to be 'secret'. As for torture- waterboarding- This is torture according to the United Nations, in 2006 In a letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales more than 100 United States law professors stated unequivocally that waterboarding is torture, and the use of the practice is a criminal felony punishable under the U.S. federal criminal code.

3. Blackwater Worldwide- Deployed in New Orleans at the behest of the united states governemnt and rich homeowners , they were heavily armed and were authorised to open fire on looters if need be. Blackwater are the largest PMC(Private Military Contractor) within the U.S, they are trained for urban pacification and are very much a law unto themselves. In iraq they ostensibly operate as a paramilitary wing of the u.s military who can oprate outwith legal constraints.


I've covered three of the steps here but it should be said that they are STEPS and as such they follow on one after the other. This is not a 'bush' dictatorship it is a military industrial complex dictatorship. It would take some form of miracle for the massively denegrating effects of heavily invested corporations in U.S politics to even slightly dissipate. You have to wonder about who's running your country when huge conglomerates pay staggering amounts of money to both political parties (individually and as a whole)

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