MovieChat Forums > To Die in Jerusalem Discussion > Hmmmm, Interesting.. Spoilers..

Hmmmm, Interesting.. Spoilers..

posted 17 years ago by Julynosaurus_Sex
34 replies | jump to latest

Now I see with almost a certainty that this will never stop.

On the one side, a mother wants both to unite and demand their governments not oppress anyone, but first she wants the other mother to admit her daughters suicide/murder was not the way to end the oppression.

The other mother is fine with all that, if she doesn't have to do anything till after she gets what makes her happy.

But how are suicide bombings, killing so many innocents, going to do anything but make it continuously painful for those not even making the major political decisions? How is a bombing from Israelis, killing so many innocents, going to inspire Palestinians (who see all the country as Palestine) to simply agree to disagree and not send their children out as "martyrs"?

Respectfully, I would like to ask Muslims here, when/if any arrive to this board, how it is that while both we and Jews look at suicide as a sentence to damnation, why its wonderful for you to do it? As in, could I get a Scripture quote? I'll look in the Quran in the meantime, but, well, we have lengthy Holy books. ;-) But I know I have heard, as an argument against all the generalisations made, that the number one wrongdoing by a Muslim is to kill. I hope you can see how I am a little confused. Don't worry, we Christians certainly don't begin to agree on TONS of issues, killing being one of them. I'm just looking for clarification from someone who would know much better than I would.

Anyway, on that note, I recently read a quote and I will leave it for you to contemplate / dispute as you wish. "The reason we can be martyrs and you cannot is that we are willing to die for our beliefs. You on the other hand, demand that we also be willing to die for yours along with you. Our martyrs sacrifice themselves, at the hands of their direct persecutors, by never giving up their faith for the worldly desire to survive. Your people sacrifice themselves, but make certain to simultaneously take the lives of others who would not be willing, and often are not your direct persecutors."

Now, I know well that Hindu is another religion altogether as my best friend is Indian. But some of our nuns were just beaten by a group of Hindus because said nuns were traveling quietly to a home of a Christian to pray. Though they were not out to convert anyone, they were beaten brutally, arrested, and charged for trying to convert. Therefore, a person who generalises all Muslims as violent could probably judge all Hindus to be violent. It should go without saying of course, that such could be EASILY assumed about Christians and Jews, thank you very much. :-) No one is wholly innocent. (Note, the above quote concerns martyrs and suicide bombers, not people who persecute and kill without any willingness to die with their victims.) What I'm saying is, we need so much men of peace like Gandhi. I don't mean peace like, "Oh yeah, we wish for peace so long as no one offends us." or "I'm not willing to work for peace, it is up to you alone." That is not peace. Even he could not keep India from the fighting between religions. I know its hard and there is not a simple answer.

I'm sure people will say, "There is a simple answer. This group should leave."

Sorry. All three of the major monotheists have had claim to Jerusalem.

So what's it going to be? If Israel keeps fighting, Palestine and friends will too. Lets say the US supplies Israel more than they do, and Israel kills the vast majority of Palestinians. Is that good? Not taking the huge numbers of innocent people who will have perished, it is not as if there would be no revenge on a massive scale. Taking them into account, how can anyone do that?! Any American who has no shame for what has happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki appalls me. Were we attacked first? Absolutely. By the families and little children, all the men and women we either killed or caused lifelong misery beyond our imagining? I think not. There is a plethora of atrocities we have committed through our policies, etc and such since and before then that many in our country are not even aware of. I don't understand how people can do such horrendous things to other people. What makes it ok? Ever? If you must defend your people against an offender, ok.. but why does anyone, including our government ever agree to hurt, bring any harm to, kill people without provocation? People who, no matter what someone else in their society, a leader, popular figure, etc may have done, did nothing to deserve any harm?

The sad part is, this will never ever stop, will it? It won't even get to the point where each society only has the sociopaths to deal with but are otherwise not hurt each other, will it? I look at my young people, and mourn their loss already. Not because my president continues a huge fear campaign and is trying to steer us to war with Iran, but because within my own culture there is so much hate, and within the world culture it is undeniable even if we can hold the administration back from war till their out of office and can then breath a sigh of relief. (I for one bawled my eyes out when we started this in Iraq. Not just for all our soldiers who I anticipated would die, but believe me, also for the people of Iraq who I knew would certainly go through unspeakable horrors no matter what.)

Le sigh.
Anyway, discuss.

Skeptic "Why should I go to Church? It's full of hypocrites."
Pastor "So what's one more?"

[–] jeunet1 17 years ago

There is an inherant problem with the Palestinians womans argument....and this is the the only governemnt that is oppressing her is her own Palestinian government.

The only reason she is not allowed to be in jeruselam is that HER daughter is a suicide bomber end of story. The Israeli's never forced any muslims OUT of israel, this was an edict enacted bby her own lying governemnt.

The muslims simply do not want to share the land with Jews, Christians, etc. Therefore they banished their own people to live in these camps. Every bombing that she has experienced was aretalliation for an act of terror that Hammas has publicly and openly supported.

The inherent difference and in turn insanity of her words is that The Isralies Bomb for peice (i understand this is an oxymoron, but true) wher as the Palestinians bomb because they refuse to accept. period!

Lastly, Israel is not HER country. Nobody has any inherant right to land, anyone can live there they refuse to admit this. On top of this insane notion of entitlement, i find it funny that thousands of years of exitance before the muslims took israel in the first millenia AD seem to be wiped from their memories. That was the Jews homeland way before the Muslim religion was even founded.

There is no argument. You either live in peace or die fighting, they would rather die fighting.

Your over confidence is your weakness.......

Your faith in your friends...is yours!!!

[–] glas989 17 years ago

Ah, the effects of brainwashing shine thoroughly, not to mention the ignorance and ludricrousness.

As for your suicide question Palma, killing of oneself is an unforgivable sin in Islam. It's in the Quran however I cannot recall the exact place for you to see for yourself. I would like to say though, that it is still up to God to decide who goes to heaven and hell. However, the holy books are God's word and it's pretty safe to say that all suiciders are going to hell(yes, including "suicide bombers"). You can't really justify suicide, there is pretty much always an alternative in all cases.

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] jimmyzimms 16 years ago

>Its poor filmmaking in my opinion and almost a complete waste of time since nothing is resolved when the mothers finally come together

Yeah totally. I mean everything always works out at the end of every television program and everyone lives happily ever after being best friends with a new foudn respect for each other. It's totally inexcusable that nothing was resolved in reality at the end of the movie - why can't it be more like TV, huh?

(just in case you are too slow to pick up on all that, that was fully of sarcasm)

Seriously GET REAL. This is a movie documenting a real life occurance. Sorry but reality doesnt always have a happy ending.

Since it was obvious you didn't even get the whole point the filmaker was tryig to make was that the situation is almost inherently not solvable. The PA is unable to curb terrorism becuase the Israelis are there in the West Bank and the Israelis are unable to leave the West Bank because the PA is unable to control terrorism.

[–] Julynosaurus_Sex 17 years ago

Glas, thank you for that clarification.

Edit: If your brainwashing comment was aimed at my opening post, and I say this not in a defensive manner, could you please point out the errors of my post. I would like nothing more than to see your perspective. Thanks in advance!

Skeptic "Why should I go to Church? It's full of hypocrites."
Pastor "So what's one more?"

[–] basiluf 17 years ago

"The Israeli's never forced any muslims OUT of israel, this was an edict enacted bby her own lying governemnt. "

Where did you get this misinformation from? Countless Palestinian Muslim and Christian towns were destroyed by Jewish armys.

"The muslims simply do not want to share the land with Jews, Christians, etc."

As I have been to Bethlahem before, I shall say the Muslims and Christians get along just fine. It is the Jewish politician(i forgot his name) that called all Non-Jews in Israel are dirty water.

"Lastly, Israel is not HER country. Nobody has any inherant right to land, anyone can live there they refuse to admit this."

That's funny, I thought Jewish people's main claim is that they have an inherant right to the land as God's chosen people. Funny how that works.

[–] Julynosaurus_Sex 17 years ago

Funny how that works.

Okay- not to get involved- but, I was ok till I saw this; then I died laughing.

Here is me calling to you from the other side, to tell you I totally lolzed!!

But that aside, not that I'm playing Mod here, as I hardly am one, but man- I hope this board won't end up like the Death In Gaza board. I went over there after posting and couldn't believe how many people didn't seem to get the whole point. (well, as I see it, anyway :-P)

Skeptic "Why should I go to Church? It's full of hypocrites."
Pastor "So what's one more?"

[–] Julynosaurus_Sex 17 years ago

I would say fanaticism is dangerous no matter what.

Also, I think the fact that it is unresolved, leaving the viewer unsatisfied and frustrated is kind of the point.

For something that feels resolved and will bring you to tears on a related subject, I would recommend Death In Gaza.

Skeptic "Why should I go to Church? It's full of hypocrites."
Pastor "So what's one more?"

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] Julynosaurus_Sex 17 years ago

Yeah, Tabbby, I agree, but the creators probably figured many people are more receptive to a doc. Its like, you can read it continually- but when you see it.. it makes it more personal.

Than again, I dunno.

Skeptic "Why should I go to Church? It's full of hypocrites."
Pastor "So what's one more?"

[–] clambunny 16 years ago

"Maybe but why watch the documentary when you can get the same feelings reading about these occurrences in the newspapers. Too bad the filmmaker didn't attempt to become a moderator, calm the women down, and create a conversable environment instead of letting it spiral into a bickering session. If that had occurred perhaps, I wouldn't feel like I wasted my time watching the documentary. "

I think this is a terrible idea, it is completely not the place of the filmmaker to get involved in this. He is a filmmaker not a moderator, the mothers never asked for a moderator. Also the fact that they didn't finish in agreement is more truthful and representative of the stalemate the area has been in for a long time, it is fitting.

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[–] AcademyAwardWinnerJordy 10 years ago

"While the USA isn't perfect, we're in control of our destiny on some level. To believe otherwise defeats the purpose of living here and taking advantage of our freedoms. "

Funny, 50% of religion practiced in the United States is Christianity and they believe your fate is predetermined by GOD. So, no, even people in the United States believe this logic. You even state in your own post that we control our destiny "In some level". If you aren't in control 100%, you aren't in control.

Ruin is a gift. Ruin is the road to transformation (Eat, Pray, Love)

[–] cnberry 17 years ago

I love how the Israeli mother insists she just wants to know why, why, why her daughter was killed; yet, she refuses to hear the answer. She was clearly only willing to accept one answer, and was frustrated when she didn't hear it. The Palestine mother repeatedly tells her that the actions of her daughter were a direct consequence of her being raised in a detention camp and seeing her people brutalized and oppressed. I also loved how the Israeli mother mocked them by saying the were crying like babies about their situation and all they wanted to talk about was "occupation, occupation". I thought the Palestine parents showed tremendous restraint by not reacting with similarly insulting remarks.

[–] Julynosaurus_Sex 16 years ago

Cnberry,

Well, she wanted to know why her daughter was killed, and there really isn't an answer for that as it was a random target made for numbers, not specific people.

Also, after that, what she was asking about was why wouldn't the Palestinian mother stand by her against both governments and demand change in policy from them, as well as condemn suicide bombings. And the Israeli mother was more than likely extrememly insulted herself by the fact that the Palestinian mother would only agree to do so after the changes in policy occurred in her favor. So-- while the Palestinian family was willing to approve of their daughter going out and killing herself and others, they are not willing to show any other kind of resistance, a kind against the people who really ARE persecuting them. The Israeli mother and girl certainly were not the ones personally responsible, yet they were the ones who had to pay.. Even the assassinations that occur don't make a positive difference in the governments, I dunno, maybe because Gandhi was right? Maybe because an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind? The Israeli mother could not understand a mindset that accepts death and killing when diplomacy IS an option, one that leaves people alive in the end, and hopefully better off than before. I don't think she was saying to them, "The occupation is nothing! You have an easy life!" I think she was saying, "It is NOT A REASON TO KILL WHEN YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ELSE AND BESIDES, YOUR KILLING CIVILIANS IS NOT EFFECTIVE IN THE WAY YOU SEEK IT TO BE!"

She did not need to mock, as they did not need to laugh at her from time to time. Both of the families are suffering. Just as so many others.

Skeptic "Why should I go to Church? It's full of hypocrites."
Pastor "So what's one more?"

[–] lynne-gross 16 years ago

Home IS everything. I feel for Ayat's mom. Occupation=resistance. It is all about money and power. Look at the abuse of George W...

[–] Julynosaurus_Sex 16 years ago

Is that what they disagree about? Home or their children's lives? Which they would rather have?
(Except they get neither in this scenario)
That was Rachel's mother's point, you know. Since neither she nor Ayat's mom benefitted from the killing, WHY is that the accepted form of resistance? why aren't people going after their governments and holding them accountable?
I wish people would hold mine accountable. The one you mention.. is tearing the world to pieces, one unnecessary death at a time. And for what? Like you said, money and power. That only a few select get to have, at our expense. Why let them take it, and let them divide us, the masses, so that we kill each other and get ourselves out of their way? Unbelievable that this is acceptable.
Ayat's mom seems to think that is she condemns Ayat's actions, she is giving the government's failures a blessing. So, she won't have any part in stopping the suicide bomb movement. (Of course, who knows, she may well become a target if she condemns it openly, who knows? She might be thinking of her other kids) Rachel's mother can condemn it all she wants, but nothing will happen as a result. People will stand against other powerless people, but not against those in power. Great. Then, maybe everyone (but a few in the government) will be dead.

Skeptic "Why should I go to Church? It's full of hypocrites."
Pastor "So what's one more?"

[–] lynne-gross 16 years ago

I doubt if there are any Rhodes scholars fighting this miserable debacle, which amounts to no more than a loss of innocence.I feel so, for the loss of lives, when out troops are fighting people just like them and just like me. They come home maimed, burned, scarred for life, if they come home at all. Families are being shattered here and in Iraq. When will our government hold who is responsible, accountable?

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[–] Julynosaurus_Sex 16 years ago

I think everyone involved is deserving of compassion and sympathy.
The cycle has the potential to keep going and going due to trauma unleashed on both sides. Someone eventually has to have the strength to stand up and say, "No more killing each other. If home is everything, what is home without our people to live there?" Even for those of us who believe in the afterlife, if this life did not matter at all, seeing the destruction of the lives of our loved ones would not bother us, right? It all matters. each side killing the other does not work and has not worked. I feel as sorry for Ayat as I do for Rachel, for all Rachel did not go and bomb anyone. Both were victims. But someone has to stand up and be strong enough to love. Hatred comes easily, especially in response to persecution.

Skeptic "Why should I go to Church? It's full of hypocrites."
Pastor "So what's one more?"

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[–] Julynosaurus_Sex 16 years ago

I think that while many are guilty in the situation, also, almost all are victims of their environment. Not an actual excuse, and people can do better, but its not necessarily a surprise all things, including human nature, considered.

As far as God (Allah, whichever name you prefer :-P) having a plan- who knows? It would have been equally sad and tragic if both Ayat's and Rachel's mothers had been killed together in a similar situation before having had their daughters (or following children, for that matter). You really never know what could have been, once someone is gone.

Is that what you were getting at. Sorry if I am confused.

Edit: Just so you understand, I DO feel that there are incredibly evil people working and benefitting from both sides. Of course. That is how these things always work.

*Peacefullyrelaxing*

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] Julynosaurus_Sex 16 years ago

I honor that she felt brave and determined enough to want to do anything (literally, at any cost) to stand up for her people and to want to change things. Her efforts were wasted by the nature of her actions. I wish I could visit both girls. And- wasn't there a third victim?

I am pretty sure she believed that what she was doing was for God. Many others have done similarly misguided and awful things to other people with those intentions, and certainly not just Muslims.

What I wish above all is that the violence on both sides would stop. That when an Israeli troop is ordered to kill, they refuse, no matter what consequence they have to face. That when a child, woman, or man suffers from complete devastation, they stand up for themselves and their neighbors, never with violence, but with civil disobedience. That both peoples go to their governments and demand an end to the madness and agony. Hurting others does not stop the pain you feel. Hating others does not stop their persecution of you. Why should your people have to endure violence, hatred, or persecution? They should not. You should not. And neither should anyone at the hands of your people or those of your beliefs. I look at my own babies, and I know Ayat was once just as innocent and that they both deserve beautiful, happy lives. I know Ayat's mother suffers as does Rachel's though their way of coping is different. Ayat's sister was so angry, and that anger was from a place of deep sorrow and hurt. But it will not make her life better, nor anyone's, if she kills 30 Jews.

Now, if only I knew what to do about the people in my government who demand that people throughout my country and they world suffer.......

*Peacefullyrelaxing*

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[–] Julynosaurus_Sex 16 years ago

Watch it, buddy, I'm both Native American and European!!! LOL! :-P

My point is that now what is left of the Native Americans? Most are like me, mixed. A few (compared to the size of other races) in North America exist in their communities, hey! Some have casinos!!

So why should we repeat an awful history?

Israeli and Palestinian government need to come to a compromise. NO more oppression by the Israelis, NO more suicide bombings even AFTER Israel has stopped. No more moving huge communities of Palestinians out of their homes and into camps. (Seriously, for all the camps are much, much nicer-- the Euro Israelis should know better, eh?) No more treating anyone on either side like less than humans, deserving to live their lives where they want and in the religious manner they want (so long as this does not harm anyone else).

If two people want the same exact piece of land, but it belongs to person A, and has for centuries, why should person A give it up if they don't want to? Because Person B's ancestors may have had it at one point even more centuries back??? We can't take back what happened in ancient times or even the crusades, all we can do is make life better for everyone NOW.

Even if one does not want to forgive someone else, when you think of yourself, does holding a grudge like a hot coal in your hand truly make you happy? (Not you, Stk, you personally seem less likely than some in either society to hold a grudge)

Does every land need to be a dog-eat-dog capitalist republic? Surely not! :-P Just as much freedom for all as needed that warfare is not continually erupting.

Yes, the people who want war need to leave. Obviously, these people do not want what the majority wants, to live peaceful lives in their holy land. And, sorry if I sounded like I was just aiming that at Muslims. Heh- not hardly. A lot of people do not know any better than to think that Israel merely defends itself. That is not the case.

*Peacefullyrelaxing*

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] Julynosaurus_Sex 16 years ago

Nah- don't worry about your writing style. I see what you're saying, and have heard these things before.

Yes- it is intensely complicated, but its a, "If you don't like it, you have to change it. The violent way has proven itself worse.. one must be as determined for peace as they have been determined for war all these years for peace to exist."

Also my coutry needs to stay out. My country needs a lot of things- but with the interests of the greedy thrown in, only a few benefit and others die.

Lol, if anything- if we must have weapons involved I wonder what would happen if all the people gathered together- not as a mob, but as a fortified group of people who said, "Everyone with interest in war to profit off of the deaths of our loved ones is no longer welcomed."

*Peacefullyrelaxing*

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[–] WarHater 16 years ago

"We Christians certainly don't begin to agree on TONS of issues, killing being one of them."

So why do most American Christians say "Freedom is not Free?" Is it because they have sacrificed the lives of their young to enjoy the "comforts" the Palestinian mother spoke of, or, is it because since the beginnings of American history, millions of native Americans have been slaughtered to secure real estate for Anglos much like what is going on today in Iraq? After all, if you've ever been to an Indian reservation, some of the basic needs like electicity, running water, and jobs do not exist. Is this the same reality the Iraqi people are living today?

I emphathize more with the Palestinian woman because she is right. The only language the US and authortarian governments understand is violence. Is it true that anywhere from 655,000 to 1,100,000 Iraqi infants, pregnant women, children, elderly, and non-combatants have been KILLED at the hands of Christian Americans because while on patrol, a rock is thrown at a tank and the soldiers just randomly and indiscriminantly KILL?

Is this the same good 'ol boys from the US of A Christians that came into Indian villages and just opened up on women, children, elderly and non-combatants just for the sake of killing?

I fail to understand why the film shows the Jewish woman mourning at her daughters graveside with cameras rolling. To me, this is disrespecting the daughter because the mother is showboating for the press, and the press, well, boys will be boys, its the American way, right?

The Palestinians showed strength and resistance to the Jewish mothers attacks about killing. What is the difference between killing by choice for the cause of freedom, and killing just to get/keep real estate?

After 911, the Saudis went free, and the US went after Saddam. After all, in the tradition of John Wayne, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian!