Skyler and her boss


I can;t believe Skyler was have sex with her boss, when she had given birth just 7 weeks before!! eeeuuuwwww...😱😒

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She's just another whöre using the first excuse to cheat, even though Walter was always faithful, and somehow we were supposed to be on her side 

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[deleted]

Walt was unfaithful in the extreme. A sexual affair isn't the only form of unfaithfulness.

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Walt was doing it FOR his family.

I don't give a f*@K about a troll who doesn't pay for his opinion telling me how to review movies.

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You totally missed what the show is about.

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His motives may have somewhat changed later but initially it was for his family, and till the end he wanted to make sure the gimp got his money even after his betrayal and insolence.

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You totally missed what the show is about.

Seems to be a common trait among Breaking Bad fans. They try to idolize Walt and turn him into a saint when any reasonable person could see that he was evil and manipulative. He even admitted it in one of the final episodes, saying that he did it for himself because it made him feel alive even though he tried to justify it by saying he did it for his family.

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Walt was unfaithful in the extreme. A sexual affair isn't the only form of unfaithfulness.


Care to elaborate? I don't see lying or turning your back to someone is being unfaithful. At least not in the depth of betrayal that your wife whom you have kis with sleeping some creepy bastard like Ted.

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I did elaborate, in this thread. Link below. But elaboration really shouldn't be necessary given the show made his deep betrayals explicit. It was hardly merely "lying or turning your back to someone."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0903747/board/nest/261785810?d=261852391#261852391


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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Walt did try to kiss Carmen and got DENIED! Lol

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Yep. Right after his appalling minimization of the air disaster during the school assembly, when she took him aside, expressed empathy for his battle with cancer, and told him she'd be available if he feels the need to share his problems, in total confidence.

Carmen had the same misaken assumption about his bizarre behaviour as Skyler did after his sexual assault. Both women assumed it was due to the stress of having cancer, when it was actually due to the stress related to his criminal activities.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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How could anyone forget his ever so moving speech about the air disaster?!?

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his appalling minimization of the air disaster


Let me guess, you're either a girl or a butt-pirate.

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He did it to get fired from teacher job, did you forget already?

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No, he came on to her. He could have quit his job (and likely would have).

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What's the rule about how soon a woman can have sex after birth?

-
Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that I'll be over here looking through your stuff.

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LOL ...... Very good question


Matrixflower :)

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About 6 weeks I think..lol

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Skyler was a filthy slut.

"I really wish Gia and Claire had became Tanner" - Honeybeefine

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I personally kind of hated Skyler from that point on. I myself would have never wanted her back, or tried to remain with her after that. That was just some seriously hurtful sh!t, that IFT moment. I could never have forgiven that. If she hated Walt so much she should have just left him. If i was him I would have been divorcing her in a heartbeat. She was so worried about what Jr would think if he found out what Walt was doing, and was using that reasoning to justify her actions yet what would Jr have thought if he knew his mom was having an affair?? She clearly wasn't too worried about what their son would think of their actions. It was that double standard that made me begin to despise her, she was such a hypocrite.

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The most obvious double standard is when Walt isn't hated for unnecessarily placing his family at tremendous risk mortally, psychologically, economically, and socially. Again, cooking meth was unnecessary, as Gilligan and company took care to establish by episode 105. Whereas Skyler is hated for sleeping with Ted.

It's a cruel absolute that holds that no matter how absurdly bad the state of your marriage gets, caused almost entirely by your unfaithful, meth-cooking husband, who has put every life in the family in danger, including a newborn - you have no justification for seeking relief in an affair - even during a separation.

No matter how many and how egregious Walt's betrayals may be, and how desperate the situation they created, his wife's response is considered beyond understanding or mercy. His wife's sexual affair - even during a separation - is reflexively considered as the only form of serious unfaithfulness.

Walt had become distant, blatantly withheld crucial information, and concocted multiple transparent lies. He did this despite the fact that his wife had given him lots of latitude for his strange behaviour, and despite the fact that she'd been in his corner as he coped with the cancer diagnosis, prognosis, and treatment, supporting him and advocating for him - "in sickness and in health."

As a result Walt disrespected the fundamentals of marriage, sewed estrangement and mistrust, began to neglect his responsibilities as a father - such as getting his son so drunk he vomited in the pool at a family get-together, and resenting his efforts to fund raise to help pay medical costs until Skyler spoke of his callousness and begged him to at least acknowledge and thank Walt Jr. - and even to physically abuse his wife. His standard of parental and marital conduct continued to decline in Season 2. Always with excuses.

To sum up, by the time Skyler initiated the affair, the following had occurred, over seasons 1 and 2:

- Her husband had been unfaithful, unreliable and disrespectful to her in many extreme ways, violating the fundamentals of marriage, sewing alienation and mistrust, and neglected his responsibilities as a father;

- Her husband had told her painfully transparent lies, and she was painfully aware that they extended to their son as well, whose dignity she begged him to consider. He wouldn't acknowledge, let alone thank, Walt Jr. for creating the "Save Walter White" fundraising website until his wife criticized his callousness;

- Her husband refused to share what was going on for him after she'd made several soft inquires then more pointed requests;

- Her husband's cancer had gone into remission and the tumour had shrunk 80%;

- he was late to her ultrasound, where she'd been left to make a decision about a c-section because she was facing a dangerous delivery;

- she called and texted Walt multiple times on his cell ("BABY COMING!!!) and although he received them he didn't respond (he was busy ransacking Jane's place for the meth: "Not now!") and arrived at the hospital only after Skyler had delivered their daughter;

- she discovered her husband had two cell phones and had lied to her about them;

- she discovered that Gretchen never gave her husband any money for his treatment;

- she discovered that her husband never flew to visit his mother the day she dropped him at the airport;

- after frantically canvassing the town for her missing husband she discovered his "fugue state" was a lie;

- her husand sexually assaulted her. Yet she even cut him slack because she assumed it was due to the pressure of having cancer;

- she forced out the truth and learned her husband was a meth cook, unnecessarily placing the family at tremendous risk mortally, psychologically, economically, legally, and socially. She knew her husband had been handed his salvation (to borrow Gilligan's word), but had turned it down. And ironically had lied that he was receiving money for his treatments from Gretchen and Elliott.

- Her husband had defied her by not only refusing to grant an uncontested divorce in exchange for her silence about his criminal activity in order to protect the children, but actually moved back home, and framed her as the perpetrator and he as the victim, poisoning their son against her, and calling her bluff with the police.

SKYLER
Oh, I know. I know you're not.
'Cause I asked her. It really took
me forever to get in touch with
her. She was ducking my calls
for weeks. So I finally left a
message, 'What exactly is going
on between you and my husband?'
I thought that'd get her attention
and it did. So she called me back
and she finally told me. The money?
For your treatment? Gretchen and
Elliott didn't give you a dime. They
paid for nothing. You refused every
offer they made you, but that didn't
make sense because I checked with
Delcavoli in the hospital and, not
including your surgery, we're nearly
paid up. Over $100,000. Out of
where? Out of thin air? But then, I
called your mother. Yeah. Thanks
for that, too. But I thought, y'know,
maybe she has some money that I
don't know about? Maybe she
contributed? It's possible. It turns
out that not only is the money not
your mother, she didn't even know
that you have cancer. You never
went to see her. I dropped you at
the airport, I picked you up, you
were gone for four days, and yet
she swears that you were never
there. Lies on top of lies on top
of lies.”


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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I think the double standard is from people who see Skyler treating the fling with Ted like it's a damn school romance. To want a divorce in exchange of silence on the husband drug's dealing is fine but instead of moving on with her threat, she just sleeps with another dickhead who does white collar crime (and Skyler is actively covering for him and even steals money from Walt to pay Ted. It was also Skyler who had Saul send Huell and Kuby to strongarm Ted into writing the check when she figured out he wouldn't pay the taxes. So money laundering is not her only crime). That she doesn't even like Ted to begin with. The affair was just to hurt Walt and needing a bedwarmer from the stress of having a cancerous criminal as a husband. When it would've been a better option to go to the police and file a complaint alleging Walt is involved in criminal activity. Instead it's "I'll sleep with someone else to piss him off, I'm sure it's not like he'll react badly to the news".

I guess it's reasonable to believe that Saul was on the ball when he told Walt that Skyler was likely bluffing with her threats, on the grounds that the fallout from going to the police would be worse (Hank would lose his job, and it would be terrible for Walt Jr. and Holly emotionally). However, in my honest opinion, I never exactly saw her affair with Ted as a clean solution.

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I agree. She got her hands plenty dirty too. And her sleeping with Ted was one thing, but taking so much pleasure in telling Walt she did it was, in my opinion, truly malicious. I'm not saying she slept with him for that reason, but she certainly enjoyed sharing the fact that she did it for the sole purpose of hurting him.

I'm not excusing walts behavior. I know a lot of viewers despised Walt, I'm not one of them but I understand why people do. But I think its a cop out for people to excuse her actions because of the things he did. Her doing that was some evil sh!t. Some people want to give her a pass because Walt was a criminal, liar, etc. She was so hypocritical, doing the things she did that you just mentioned in your post, criminal stuff that would also have negative affects on her children and hank, not to mention Walt and herself, yet because Walt did worse things, thats enough to excuse her? I strongly disagree, and cheating on Walt with Ted was the icing on the cake.

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I agree. She got her hands plenty dirty too. And her sleeping with Ted was one thing, but taking so much pleasure in telling Walt she did it was, in my opinion, truly malicious. I'm not saying she slept with him for that reason, but she certainly enjoyed sharing the fact that she did it for the sole purpose of hurting him.


Yeah, going to the police would've been the more reasonable option. Even if that didn't end up with Walt being convicted of anything, at least the police wouldn't consider her an accomplice and see Skyler as a woman who suspected her husband was a criminal and then tried to stop him, for the sake of protecting her kids, Hank, Marie, and herself, instead of ignoring and later enabling him. Would it have sucked as much as Saul told Walt? Maybe, but so did the other course in the long run - as Skyler can't say anymore that she tried to stop Walt, and things wouldn't have gone as poorly if she had admitted to Hank that yes, Walt was a criminal, the moment she found out Hank was looking into Walt.

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for the sole purpose of hurting him

No, she doesn't do it for that sole purpose. She had a a larger goal, a deeper purpose.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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I didnt say she slept with Ted for the sole purpose of hurting him, but I believe thats the reason she chose to tell him about it...especially after seeing the pleasure she clearly got out of it.

Are you saying she slept with Ted for the benefit of her family?

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Yes, I knew you didn't say that. I was addressing the part of your statement, "she certainly enjoyed sharing the fact that she did it for the sole purpose of hurting him." Of course she tells him she did it to hurt him, but that wasn't her sole purpose in doing so. She also had a larger and deeper purpose in mind when she told him.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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I'm not sure about that. She said herself to her lawyer or whatever that she was sleeping with her boss and she has no idea why.

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You're confusing your own two contexts, ironically just after you made a point that they are different. One context, having the affair, period. Other context, telling Walt.

Put another way: having the affair was not about finding a weapon until she decided to make it one. And when she made it one, it got her what she wanted. She got Walt out of the house and she got him to sign the divorce papers.

After that, Skyler made her real mistake, a far worse choice than having sex with Ted. That choice was the equivalent of Walt's to turn down salvation from Gretchen and Elliott. Fateful decisions.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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Okay I may have misinterpreted your post. It sounded as though you were saying she slept with Ted as part of a pre planned way to get rid of Walt.

I agree she didnt sleep with Walt to hurt Ted. She told him about it to hurt him though, thats what i was trying to say. And i thought that was pretty cold. I dont think its just that she told him to hurt him that bothered me, but also HOW she told him. 'i fvcked ted' with an evil grin on her face....ouch! She was also putting reds life in danger by doing that, for all she knew Walt could have gotten Ted badly hurt or worse, or even done it himself. It wouldn't be the first time a husband would have reacted that way to something like that, and Walt was a dangerous meth dealer involved with other criminals, not just a regular Joe. She used Ted as a pawn in the end though, i agree with that part.

Pretty stupid strategy though, because all she did was almost get herself in trouble with the IRS by getting involved with Ted. So of course she then used Walt to save him. She was practically a damn sociopath lol

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So, if your opinion is that Walt "was a dangerous meth dealer involved with other criminals, not just a regular Joe," which means he put his own family at risk, not to mention the lies and manipulations, why on Earth would you find it so outrageous that his wife coldly told him she fucked Ted?

It's striking how a woman's sexual infidelity - in this case, committed during a separation, even - is considered beyond the pale no matter how many and how egregious her partner's offenses may be, and how desperate the situation they created. I think that's an unfair standard, to put it mildly. It says a lot about attitudes toward women.

The main point of telling Walt about the affair was to have impact. Without impact, there's no influence. She needed the shock to have that influence. Of course, it was also about cold revenge for his own reprehensible actions.

It wasn't a stupid strategy to tell Walt, because it worked; she got what she wanted, which was to counter his own cold strategy. To say it was stupid because of the IRS trouble doesn't make sense, since as you agree, she didn't sleep with Ted as part of a strategy.

Again, TWO DIFFERENT CONTEXTS. The strategic part was telling Walt, not having the affair in the first place. Having the affair was due to emotional need, not strategy.

"Sociopath" is what Walt allowed himself to become. By contrast, Skyler could never completely quarantine her conscience. It haunted her to the end. The writers deliberately stressed that contrast.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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See now youre assuming what I said has anything to do with their gender. Youre pulling the sexist card when what I said has nothing to do with their sex. I do feel that infidelity is wrong if youre married, 100%, regardless of whether its the male or female who does the cheating. Instead of making insinuations on my attitude towards women, maybe you should look at yourself. Perhaps you're doing what some people refer to as projecting. Maybe its you who has a problem with men if thats the connection you automatically make regarding my post. I never once said anything to imply that gender played any kind of role here.

Skyler telling Walt she fvcked Ted put teds life in danger, for all she knew it could have had some fatal consequences for Ted. So what she did was hypocritical and contradictory. She fears her and her children's lives are in danger, so she puts another man who also has children's life in danger as a solution to her problem? That is twisted.

Walt left because he chose to leave. He could have just as easily kicked her out. Or even just stayed and let her stay, whatever. I dont think his decision to leave was made for that reason alone. He probably granted the divorce because he was fed up with fighting with her about it, not because of Ted.

Anyways my main point was she intentionally hurt Walt, and he would never have done that to her. Or anyone in his family. He lied and manipulated because he didnt want to hurt them with the truth.

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That post is a good example of the double standard related to the characters' sex. It's super common. You make excuses for the man and condemn his wife, even though what the man does is vastly worse. You're not aware of doing it, and you resent my pointing it out, but it's actually pretty blatant.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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Making excuses for one gender and condemning the other is what you've done consistently throughout your posts. Again, I think youre projecting.

I love women, trust me lol 😁

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I've consistently treated the Skyler character as deeply flawed, quoting her own words that she's "comprimised too," that she craves power like Walt, that she makes terrible choices, and I've also observed that her offenses and crimes are not as many or as egregious as Walt's. That observation is how the show depicts them.

By contrast, you say things like Walt "would never have done that to her. Or anyone in his family. He lied and manipulated because he didnt want to hurt them with the truth." I.e., putting your family in danger in multiple ways isn't more hurtful, to more people, than having an affair, and he did all this for noble motives. Well, that's adopting the character's own point-of-view, and as Gilligan pointed out, that's "a danger when you're talking about a guy as warped as Walter White."

As for loving women, people express love in qualified ways. For example, it's not uncommon to hear someone profess to love women whle condescending to them. Or applying double standards when it comes to their status relative to men. What they mean is they love women in a context they're comfortable with. There are similar examples in every aspect of human affairs.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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Negative. I'm not sexist in the least, and I feel its sad if you have to resort to making accusations and assumptions about me to try to win your argument. My points were regarding the specific actions and behaviors of Walt, Skyler, and Ted. What gender they are has absolutely NOTHING to do with this lol

Looking at the last paragraph of your post, if you think that cant also apply to the way some women treat men, than I'm sorry to say it appears its you who has the problem with the opposite sex.

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You've insisted on a double standard for the husband and his wife. You minimize and ennoble his offenses and crimes, and condemn hers.

I didn't state or even imply that qualified love can't also apply "to the way some women treat men." In fact I noted in that last paragraph, "there are similar examples in every aspect of human affairs."


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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Are you saying she slept with Ted for the benefit of her family?


To start with, the White family's definition of "for the family" is dramatically different from a normal, sane human being's definition. 

But yes, in many ways, part of the affair was about "the family" (although I doubt it was all planned that way.) The affair played a crucial part in Skyler's long con in getting the kids out of the house. It provided a sufficient piece in the back ground for her "suicide attempt". Skyler had significantly less problems with manipulating Walt than Walt had with manipulating Skyler (he was terrible at it.) Honestly, if Walt and Skyler had gone into the meth business together to begin with, they would have been unstoppable. She was very business savvy, and inherently a much better liar than him.

I personally went back and forth on Skyler. I found her annoying in the beginning, then I started liking her in season 3 but despised her as much as I despised Walt when they did that tape on Hank. I always tried to look at everything both Walt and Skyler (and everyone else) did from their respective point of views, to understand how they felt and why they did what they did. But that is one instance where I couldn't sympathize with Skyler at all. That's when for me she stooped to Walt's level.

(PS. Ted is very attractive. Just felt like this needed to be out there.  And before someone flies off the handle about "justifying cheating" relax, in the end this is just a TV show.)


Do you even know what honor is?
- A horse.

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I think the difference for me is, Skyler telling Walt about sleeping with Ted, knowing how bad it would hurt him realm bothered me.

Whereas Walt, imo would never set out to directly hurt Skyler. I know people will argue with that point by saying he put her in danger etc but still, he never set out to deliberately hurt her.

Look at what he was willing to give up to save hank..he never wanted to see anyone in his family get hurt, nor would he ever have hurt them on purpose the way Skyler did.

And on top of it all, she just went from one criminal to another, and then had to have her criminal husband bail out the criminal she was having an affair with. So not only was she sleeping with Ted, but Walt paid to get him out of trouble. Talk about adding insult to injury, my god. If I was Walt I probably would have wanted to have Ted taken out. I'm saying that only if I was Walt though, not if I was me lol

Plus Ted was a douchebag, and knowingly sleeping with another man's wife is pretty low. He didn't know about walts criminal stuff. Hes like yeah sure ill sleep with this mans wife who's already battling cancer, why not? Lol slimeball

But yes, I am team heisenberg...and was right until the show ended, so I know my opinion differs greatly from a lot of people on here who hated Walt.

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I sympathized with Walt still at that point, but at the same time I did always feel like he should probably live elsewhere. Walt's lies to his family always made me super uncomfortable because they were so awkward, so I was actually happy to see him live away from them not because I wanted him to suffer per se, but just from a story-telling point of view. I felt like they could focus more on the aspects of the story that interested me (because I always found the White family drama the least interesting part of the show, although I loved analyzing Walt's relationships to different members of his family) since they were able to cut corners in when Walt could reasonably be and where. If he had to run some urgent meth related errand it felt more logical to me that he would live on his own so as to not need an excuse for everything.

However, I didn't really enjoy the Ted drama either much, my favorite Walt/Skyler moments were always when they weren't fighting but when they were accomplices. She was at her absolute best during the car wash purchase period, when Hank was in the hospital and she was spouting all that gambling nonsense and in all those scenes with Saul, because those were gold. Although I did also like her in early season 5 when she was being all passive aggressive (that Walt-Skyler-Jesse dinner scene is everything.  "Did you also tell him about my affair?" Burn. Though I also liked that because for once Jesse got some dirt on Walt's family. It often felt like he was supposed to readily sacrifice everything for their business - his home, his friends, his girlfriends, even Brock - whereas Walt's private life was kept largely in its own untouchable bubble away from what they were doing, it made their relationship even more unequal than it already was. Except for Hank, of course...)

By the way, good points on putting Ted in danger. I mean she didn't mean for him to crack his spine or anything, but in the end it was due to her interference that he ended up pretty damn badly hurt.


Do you even know what honor is?
- A horse.

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No one has stated or even implied that the affair was a "school romance." Straw man.

instead of moving on with her threat, she just sleeps with another dickhead

You missed key context the writers' set up: Skyler didn't move on with her threat because she didn't want to destroy Walt Jr's image of his father. I.e., she "did it for family."

Skyler didn't do it merely to "piss him off," but to counter his violating her terms, by calling her on her threat to report him, which in turn forced her to choose between exposing him to their son or sacrificing her relationship with Walt Jr. Walt imposed unilateral control by returning to the house acting as if everything's normal and manipulated his son against his mother.

Walt had successfully isolated his wife, cynically betting that her compassion for her son wouldn't allow her to expose him. He stripped her of nearly all power to fight back. Given those circumstances, she was at wits' end and frantic to somehow strike back and rid the family of his destructive influence.

Vince Gilligan:

"[The cop] is basically giving her a silver platter, saying 'Tell us your husband's a meth dealer.' If she were to do this, he'd be out of the house, he'd be out of her life, but she just can't do it because of her son, Walter Jr. [in the scene, Skyler glances back at Walt Jr. before answering the cop.] She can't ruin his life, ulitmately, by letting him know that his father's this big-time meth dealer.

The guy's a meth dealer! You don't want this infecting your family! So she's trapped. A lot of people probably aren't going to like Skyler for what she does at the end of this thing [initiate the affair with Ted, and tell Walt.] Try to see it from her eyes. Try to see it a little deeper. Because in my mind, she's in a really untenable situation. This is a terrible thing Walt's done to her. It's Skyler kind of breaking bad in this episode, in a way that's usually reserved for Walt."
She took Walt's money to pay for Ted because there was a huge risk the IRS would uncover Walt's meth business.

The double standard is glaring: the wife does these things "for family" and is pilloried for it, whereas her husband cooks meth, lies, steals, ruins lives, manipulates, puts his wife and children at great risk, murders, etc., EVEN AFTER refusing salvation from Gretchen and Eliott due to pride, making the whole enterprise UNNECESSARY - and claims he's doing it for the exact same reason, but in his case that rationalization is seen in his favour, given positive weight.

The rest is irrelevant to the specific case under discussion.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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Good points. But think you also need to take into consideration that "doing it for the family" is applied differently to these two.

Walt's original "doing it for the family" was to make money for his family, for the future, after he dies of cancer. We know cooking meth and all the bad things that follow, are not the best way to go to achieve this, but the end result is originally thought to be more of a noble thing.

Skyler's "doing it for the family" was to take the money that Walt made and give it to Ted, who she slept with, to cover up her mistake of cooking his books. She was "doing it for the family" to keep herself from getting caught by the IRS and going to jail.

Not an even comparison, IMO.

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She was "doing it for the family" to keep herself from getting caught by the IRS and going to jail.

Surely, but that's not the only reason. There was a good chance the IRS would sniff out her and Walt's money laundering car wash operation. And her going to jail would leave Jr. with one meth-cooking parent. Hey, there's a solid idea!

Walt's choice put his family in multiple kinds of peril, including death. The consequences aren't equivalent for aiding in tax cheating.

When comparing actions by these two, I think to be fair we should consider the state of affairs that has developed to the point in time we're dealing with. If we take Skyler's intent at this point, and compare it to Walt's original intent, then we're not comparing apples to apples. If we're going to say Walt had a noble intention earlier, then the fair comparison would be Skyler's support during that time, her advocating for him, her patience with his alienating ways, her making allowances, etc. Her intentions were noble then, too. In fact, if she hadn't pushed Walt hard during the "talking pillow" scene, he'd have laid down and died. (Yes, it's all her fault, ironically.)

But at the point Skyler chooses to agree to cook the books (drawn by Ted using the same "I do it for family" rationalization), and uses Walt's $ to get out of hot water, Walt has committed a ton of egregious offenses, not a few against his own family. So I think a fair comparison would be to say neither of them were doing noble things at this time.

I was rewatching not long ago and noted that Ted tells Skyler about the audit the day before they're scheduled to meet the IRS. He admits to her that he'd known about it "awhile." Gawd, Ted was a dick.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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And her going to jail would leave Jr. with one meth-cooking parent. Hey, there's a solid idea!


You may laugh, but...if Skyler went to jail after she slept with Ted, but before Walt accepted Gus' superlab offer (I know the IRS audit came after that), he might just have been a good parent. In S3, when he was trying to get back into the family, he was back to teaching. He tried turning down Gus' offer but the combination of being pushed out of the family (his fault, but that's not the point), Skyler sleeping with Ted, Jesse cooking his formula and Gus backing it all up with his "A man provides" speech.

If Skyler were in jail then, question would be, would Jesse cooking his formula be enough to push him into cooking again, while Skyler is in jail and he's the lone parent. Only VG knows the answer to that one.

But at the point Skyler chooses to agree to cook the books


Here's another question...if Walt got cancer, but never cooked meth...expect Skyler could still have taken the job at Beneke's. So under those circumstances, do you see anything that would have changed her actions - of cooking the books? I don't.

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Imo, I think walts decision of whether or not to cook again would largely depend on how much money he had at the time. Timeline wise I'm drawing a blank as to the approximate amount he had at that time...would that been after that first Gus deal?

As for Skyler, I have a feeling she would probably have still cooked the books for Ted, given their history and the soft spot it appeared she had for him.

Just my guesses...its funny how they both involve hypothetical questions involving cooking lol

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He made the deal then had the operation in S2. But believe he still had $500K when he moved out, when Hank lifted his bag for him.

Overall, the Skyler/Walt camps seem pretty polarized by many posters...not surprisingly, guys versus gals in what looks to be the majority of cases. So...can appreciate opinions that are more "down the middle", since I think that's pretty much what VG wanted - ride the fence so there's plenty of ammo for both sides to keep firing...not as one sided as Hank versus the Nazis.

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Love that scene

Hank: Jesus what do you got in here, cinder blocks?

Walt: Half a million in cash.

Hank: 'laughs' thats the spirit!

I expect Walt would have wanted to be sure he could afford to bail out and pay for skylers legal fees, on top of everything else he wanted to have money for, even though its possible he wouldn't want to if it meant questions about where the money to pay for it were to come about. Could have been an interesting dilemma.

VG definitely knew how to walk that fine line in his story, sooo many divided opinions.

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Walt missed that in his $737K calculation. Should have been "...$40K per year, 4 years, two kids...30 year mortgage...physical therapy for Junior...incidentals...and $621K for Skyler to bail out Ted, keep her out of jail, and pay for the lease on a new car for Ted...$1,358,000 total...that's what I need".

But that wouldn't have worked out well with the episode title and the plane crash theme...so VG left it out.

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Physical therapy AND psychological therapy for Jr lol after the trauma of his mom getting busted.

Lease on a new car for Ted LOL

Hilarious!

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Wouldn't that have been an ironic twist, if VG had her get caught and go to jail for a couple months while Walt is the single parent. Saul eventually gets her out - possibly by having Ted take the rap. Walt would still cook...can't change that. She gets out on good behavior, but is kept under house arrest, under Walt's supervision. Could have been an interesting few episodes.

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Hahah that could have been entertaining. I get the feeling skylers one tough chick, she probably would have been running her cell block in a matter of days. She's an alpha! Look how she approached Lydia at the car wash...granted physically there would have been nothing left of Lydia but a battered and bruised girl in a finely tailored designer outfit lol

There would have been potential for some interesting scenes of Walt and Jr visiting Skyler in jail, maybe bringing her cigarettes lol

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do you see anything that would have changed her actions - of cooking the books? I don't.

The reason she agrees to cook books is because of Ted's rationalization he did it for family, and the reason that has influence on Skyler to the degree it does is because that's her husband's rationalization for cooking meth. Remove her husband's rationalization, remove the influence it has on her to the degree it does, and it's less likely she'd come around to cooking the books.

Recall that Skyler initially refuses to be involved, and quits, then returns to look at the situation more fully, and conditionally relents. Meaning that even with that influence as impactful as it stands, she still experiences a fair amount of inner resistance. Remove the additional context of the rationalization "for family," and that resistance has a clearer field.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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To say that she cooked the books because of Ted's response, that he'd do it for his family, seems more contradictory to Walt's situation than influencial. It was a poor excuse, to her, that she got tired of hearing from Walt...yet it influences her to cook Ted's books and then sleep with him?

If it was influencial, you would think that hearing that same excuse from Ted would enlighten her to the situation Walt (as well as Ted) was in, making her more understandable of Walt, not driving her further away, and to Ted.

Think this is where some of the feelings of hypocrisy come into play.

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she got tired of hearing from Walt...yet it influences her to cook Ted's books and then sleep with him?

Yes. It was a case of being able to hear from another person what you could not hear from somone closer to you. As noted, Skyler didn't want to hear it at first. Then came around.

you would think that hearing that same excuse from Ted would enlighten her to the situation Walt (as well as Ted) was in, making her more understandable of Walt , not driving her further away, and to Ted.

But it did enlighten her to the situation with Walt as well as Ted. Again, she came back to Ted after first refusing. It didn't drive her further away from Walt, but back to him. That process was not overnight, but gradual. This was a major turning point for Skyler.

SKYLER
How would you explain it to them? [his kids]

TED
Well, put me on the spot, why
don't you? I guess maybe I'd
say that I might have feet of clay
but that whatever I did, I did
thinking of them. You know, trying
to provide. And I'd ask them to try
to take the time to understand.
Gilligan:
“(W)e decided at that point [end S2] that we wanted her to go through a process this season [S3]. If she doesn't come to have sympathy for Walt throughout the course of the season, at least she has an understanding of him. She doesn't side with Walt. She doesn't think he did the right thing. But she is at a pragmatic place. There is this money. They will need it for Hank's recovery, now that he has been shot four times. Lets be pragmatic about this. Lets make the best of a very bad situation. That is what we were working towards with Skyler all season. We wanted to move her as organically as possible, and as naturally as possible, towards her getting her head around this very big concept. That her husband is a criminal. It took thirteen solid episodes to get there. It will perhaps continue through season four.”

"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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Yeah, it's a progression.

Just thought it would be more straight forward reasoning if she cooked/slept first, then heard that comment from Ted, which was the sign to get out, stop standing on his heated floor, and head home...in that order.

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Perhaps, but why apply that standard? Life and human beings don't work according to straightforward reasoning. I think that makes them, and the dramas faithful to them, interesting.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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Guess that's the purpose of the bathroom scene, where she looks in the mirror, then puts the towel down to stop standing on Ted's cushy, warm floor.

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Walt did what he did to help his family, skyler did it cause she was a horndog slut and wanted to hurt Walt. The only double standard is by fools like yourself who minimize her adultery and misrepresent what Walt tried to do. Grow some balls champ.

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[deleted]

Walt did what he did to help his family...The only double standard is by fools like yourself who minimize her adultery and misrepresent what Walt tried to do.



Correction: Walt did what he did to stoke his ego. The double standard is by fools who see Skyler's adultery as worse than many of the reprehensible things Walt did.

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Wrong. Ego came into it later, he only started cooking to help his family. He never cheated on that ungrateful tw@t.

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Ego came into it later, he only started cooking to help his family.


Wrong. If not for his ego he would never have needed to start cooking, because Gretchen and Elliot offered to just give him the money. Ego's the reason he refused, ergo, the reason he got involved in the meth business.


Do you even know what honor is?
- A horse.

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This discussion depends on the timeline.

If not for his ego he would never have needed to start cooking, because Gretchen and Elliot offered to just give him the money.

Gretchen & Elliot offered him the money in Grey Matter - S1E4.

He originally started cooking in the Pilot, before he was offered this money. And his intentions in the Pilot did appear to be entirely to provide for his family.

(dmcreif) Correction: Walt did what he did to stoke his ego. The double standard is by fools who see Skyler's adultery as worse than many of the reprehensible things Walt did.

Ego grew as the series went on. But he was Mr. Chips, at least for most of the Pilot. If we compare Walt's intentions in the Pilot to Skyler's intentions in IFT, this is where Skyler's actions appear more damning, aimed directly at Walt, to hurt him, to get him out of the house. Her reasons may be justified, but it's still looked at as something she directly did to Walt.

Walt cooking in the Pilot, on the other hand, may have started the chain of events, which is this series, which ultimately hurts his family, to a greater degree. But that was not his intention. It was a mistake. Comparing "intentions" appears to be the key here, IMO.

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Uh, sorry, had a brain freeze moment there.  Well he could have stopped cooking after 1x05, but he decided to carry on.


Do you even know what honor is?
- A horse.

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You're not necessarily wrong. Just pointing out that it depends when you are each comparing their actions.

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I think I know what you mean though. Walt started in the meth business for "good reasons", and with somewhat noble intentions. Skyler, however, started an affair in big part to hurt Walt. It is correct, but on the other hand Walt did carry on way longer than was necessary, so even if he did start with good intentions in the long run that doesn't matter. Everything after 1x05 wasn't really out of necessity anymore.


Do you even know what honor is?
- A horse.

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Its funny, your guys discussion here parallels the discussion (argument?) me and whatlarks had in this thread, just in a different way, but also boiling down to good and bad intentions in the end I think....until I got called sexist lol

Jk whatlarks 😉

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We wall have our biases, subtle or overt, steady or fluctuating in intensity, depending on mood and the kind and degree of provocation.

"Sexist," like "racist," is a general word yet it tends to conjure the narrow connotation of an extreme. But that's not the case with the example we were scrapping over. The most common form is unconsciously taking on a large-scale, systemic attitude, which typically finds expression in double standards. Systemic, institutional forms are by far the norm. While I try to monitor myself, I easily slip into this kind of bias from time to time, whether it's related to sex or ethnicity or social status. No one is immune.

I think Breaking Bad tends to expose gender bias in viewers relatively more clearly than other shows. I think that's because it's about characters seeking power, and Skyler is the most consistently effective antagonist to the male antihero. She was the most intimate, preventing him from feeling truly powerful, from savouring his desired role as a family hero, from getting away with his rationalization of "doing it for family" for all the atrocities. Moreover, she pushed her way into the role of ally, which undermined his sense of distinction.

A wife-antagonist competing with and consistently obstructing a husband-protagonist's consuming desire for power: you couldn't invent a more provocative scenario.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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Warning, there are some spoilers for House of Cards in my post, although I tried keeping it vague.

A wife-antagonist competing with and consistently obstructing a husband-protagonist's consuming desire for power: you couldn't invent a more provocative scenario.


I'm not sure her antagonism is necessarily the main reason for the often out of proportion dislike for Skyler. I think if she was more of a pure antagonist, or even villainous, she'd probably be more well-liked. For example, Claire Underwood from House of Cards is often way more directly antagonistic towards Frank (although often they are also the best of allies) but she is - as far as I've seen - as popular as Frank, they are always ranked #1 and #2 in every character ranking I've seen, Claire sometimes even taking the #1 spot (I like them equally, and sometimes I hate them equally.) As far as shows with anti-hero male protagonists go, Claire's both the most well-liked and the most antagonistic.

But Claire is framed differently, she on her own is "in the game", she is portrayed as Frank's equal - more than "just the wife", which I think is the biggest factor that makes her so popular and Skyler so hated. She has "the right" to be an antagonist, just like the Guses and Tucos of Breaking Bad have, because she inhabits the main world of the show, unlike Skyler who for a long time was reduced to the secondary and less interesting part of the show. Although you do see it sometimes the other way around as well (everyone hates Piper's boyfriend from 'Orange Is The New Black', he like Skyler is an "outsider", he isn't involved in the main storyline which is the prison life,) due to TV still having so many more male than female protagonists normally it is the wife/girlfriend that gets the fanboy/fangirl hate, as the "outsider" who messes with the main character's business even though she "should" be as subservient to him as the storyline she's involved in is to the main storyline.

I think even if Skyler was always supportive of Walt, people would still find fault with her. If on the other hand she would have been involved in the whole meth business since the very beginning, she might be more popular. By the way I'm not saying there isn't a great deal of gender bias sometimes with the more extreme opinions on Skyler (and I do mean the extreme) but apart from those extremists, the fault for people disliking her lies as much with how Breaking Bad is structured and how Skyler is written, as it does with the viewer.


Do you even know what honor is?
- A horse.

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Very interesting points.

We could banter about what constitutes a "pure" antagonist, but that might not be worthwhile because while we could easily agree on how a show frames a character, as engaged viewers we're bound to have our individual ways of framing/perceiving them.

To my mind, the antagonist who opposed Walt in the most intimate, most meaningful ("pure") way was Skyler, due to the very fact that she was family. That's one irony, and the other, related one is that "family" in Walt's terms in practice meant that she should remain passive and appreciative -- in other words, literally "secondary" and "outside" his main storyline.

But Skyler wouldn't comply like a good little wife. She broke out of Walt's (and therefore by extension our) framework. Walt could more accurately have said "I'm doing it to family," because they were not supposed to have any say. It was always to be his unilateral choice, his show, his "main storyline" imposed on them. So in this sense Skyler was the epitome of the "uppity woman." And I think that's a huge reason why she's loathed so much. She really pushes those still very sensitive taboo buttons.

If Skyler was more "villainous" she would remain outside Walt's main storyline, remain secondary. Then people could find her a femme fatale, as sexy, and you'd see threads talking about her in the way people talk about Lydia, how she's evil but hot, etc.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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I totally agree. Just to be clear, I was only kidding and meant that in the most light hearted way. You, swolbach, IS, dmcrief, hippo, honk, and a few others are my favorite posters on here. And that was a good discussion we were having, I just felt like we sort of hit a wall, so to speak lol

Your posts are great, and youre excellent to argue with. A very worthy adversary ;) haha

It all ends up coming down to what people think of Walt in the end. Thats what gives this board so much to debate. VG really did a phenomenal job of dividing his audience. There are so many things that people interpret differently, and the walt/Skyler walt/jesse walt/hank Jesse/hank etc relationships were so layered.....like nachos 😁

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Just caught up on all these posts...believe it or not, while eating nachos (no lie).

After analyzing all the data (like Walt would do), and taking it all under consideration, I must humbly also come to the same conclusion that...Lief IS sexist...😁

No...but when all the guys lean towards Walt and all the gals lean towards Skyler, you have to step back and try to be as objective as possible. Objectively, whichever way you lean, I just don't think it can be all the way in one direction.

And I'm sure that's what they planned when they wrote this stuff. Think there's more symbolism to that scale in Saul's office than just the "scales of justice"...think the even balance symbolizes the whole show.

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Thank you swolbach. I can always depend on you to be the voice of reason...

Ya jerk 😐

No I totally agree with the rest of your post though...minus that Lief is sexist part. Serenity now!! LOL

Okay now I want nachos...

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Thanks.

Mine were just out of the bag...not layered...no exponential growth...Yo.

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but when all the guys lean towards Walt and all the gals lean towards Skyler, you have to step back and try to be as objective as possible.


I don't know if this is accurate. I mean I'm a gal and yo, Team Jesse all the way, bitches! Walt and Skyler could both go screw themselves as far as I was concerned in the end. 

No but seriously, I think that is a bit of an oversimplification. I know many women who root for Walt, and I'm certain there are many men who don't. But that isn't really the crux of the issue, you don't need to root for either or you can sympathize with both. Liking Walt and Skyler aren't mutually exclusive. I liked them both in seasons 3-4, hated (I mean, wanted them to crash and burn although I was very much enjoying the characters) them both in season 5.


Do you even know what honor is?
- A horse.

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Yeah, this was a generalization, geared especially at those who take extreme stances - those who flat out consider Skyler a @#$& and those who say Walt was evil from the start, driven by his ego from day 1, never ever really doing it for his family.

Where you used the term "root for", I actually said "lean towards"...not too different, but what I was really thinking was "identify with".

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I actually do think ego was part of Walt's story from the very beginning, although it's only so in hindsight. Walt's very insecure - uncertain in his perceived idea of masculinity - which is hinted at to be the reason he and Gretchen initially separated (her being too rich and successful) and as such why Walt sold his shares in Grey Matter. If he had never done that, he'd never be the Walter White of the Pilot**. But yes, at the time of the Pilot that's not really relevant, it was years ago.

I do think the "for himself" part of Walt's criminal venture manifests itself in the very first episode. He says he "feels alive" and he has rather passionate (for them at least) sex with Skyler which we were hinted at not being that common for them anymore. But I can't see why he can't be cooking for multiple reasons. His family is the instigator, in the beginning the prime motivation and throughout the show the "justification". His own sense of being a failure and wanting to be the best in something before he dies, to leave a legacy to both his family in the form of inheritance but also "professionally", is there as a motivation since the beginning, but obviously grows more and more important to him in the course of the series, taking over the "provide for my family" part. But I think both factor in since the very beginning.

**It's kind of sad how he's a failure in life for being a teacher. Teacher is one of the most respected careers in my country.


Do you even know what honor is?
- A horse.

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I actually do think ego was part of Walt's story from the very beginning, although it's only so in hindsight.

For sure. I mean, "I'm the one who knocks" does not come from nowhere. The grandiosity. That had to pre-exist.

We know from the flashback scenes of the couple's younger days, and from Gretchen and Elliott's testimony, that Walt had a tendency to swing radically and suddenly from a positive, take-charge state of mind - to the point of bravado - to a deeply cynical one, resentful and passive. It indicates narcissism, a weak and volatile psyche given to rash, self-destructive over-reactions. His masculinity, his sense of personal power, had long been vulnerable, and the one who emasculated it most was Walt himself.

Vince Gilligan:

"When we first meet him, he does seem to be emasculated and sleep-walking through life. It's funny, you could easily and properly make an argument that Walt is some sort of a victim when we first meet him, a victim of life constantly beating him down for years on end, but I think he's his own invention. Years of giving in to his fears and not swinging for the fences made Walt who he is."
Tomas Schnauz, one of the writers:
"But then I realized that this character wasn’t changing. Not really. What he was really doing was revealing his true inner nature. As I type that, I know that is my opinion and open to debate. Vince always pitched the now classic line: 'Turning Mr. Chips into Scarface.' But when I wrote scenes for Walt, I believed he was Scarface (or in our world, Heisenberg) pretending to be the man society expected him to be. Cancer gave him an excuse not to pretend anymore."


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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Where you used the term "root for", I actually said "lean towards"...not too different, but what I was really thinking was "identify with".

The meanings are actually quite different, and I think you see the distinction most clearly with the extreme positions. People don't separate their feeling for a character from rooting for them.

Shakespeare didn't mean for us to adopt Richard III's POV; but he did want us to feel for him, the same as for his other villains, possiblity with the exception of Iago.

Speaking of Iago:

"[Iago] is perhaps the most terrific indictment of pure intellect in the literature of the world -- 'pure intellect,' which, as Emerson said, 'is the pure devil'... The intellect, as all the prophets have divined, should be the servant of the soul. Performing that function it is indispensable. There can scarcely be too much of it... But the moment the intellect sets up a claim of sovereignty for itself, it is the slave in revolt, the torch-bearer turned incendiary, Lucifer fallen... 'All knowledge is hurtful,' says Montaigne, 'to him who has not the science of honesty and goodness.'"
- Harold C. Goddard, The Meaning of Shakespeare.

I think a good argument could be made that Walt, of very high intelligence, tended to overemphasize intellect like a cane to compensate for being emotionally handicapped. That intellect came to increasingly dominate as other parts of his humanity slipped.
WALT
There we go. So the whole thing
adds up to... 99.888042%. We
are 0.111958 shy.

GRETCHEN
Supposedly that's everything.

WALT
Yeah? I don't know, it just... it seems
like something's missing, doesn't it?
There's got to be more to a human
being than that.

GRETCHEN
What about the soul?

WALT
The soul? There's nothing but chemistry
here.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

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That is wrong though, Gretchen and Elliot offered money just for the therapy, Walter wanted to guarantee his children education and many of the further expenses they would get. Ego of course played a part, the dialog with Jeese where he speaks about leaving Gray Matter proves that. I still believe Walt's family was a primary factor, because why else he tried so hard to stay with them and get Skyler's forgiveness while she treated him like trash?

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Then he could have taken the money AND cooked meth.


Do you even know what honor is?
- A horse.

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[deleted]

Well as for the timing of that, that's an interesting point. That's probably going to vary from person to person. I.e. how soon they would have intercourse or an affair following childbirth. I think the bigger point is why Skyler did that. At this point in the show, Walt was being an absolute jerk to her, in refusing to leave the house, and in a very direct way showing her that she had no power and no control over the situation. She was completely rendered powerless, and she felt that she and her children were in danger, and that her husband was acting immorally (in a way that is a serious crime and actually harms people). So the affair was probably a combination of loneliness and revenge.

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